SSJ Broly handle both SSB Goku and Vegeta while Jiren not even close to full power handle SSBKK x20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, and Android 17 plus he stomped Frieza. Jiren handle UI omen Goku easily and it took enrage MUI Goku to stop him. Full power Broly was getting his ass kick by SSB Gogeta who already knew he was gonna end Broly. So Jiren at full power stomps full power Broly. Plus Goku can’t go MUI at will so Jiren is still strongest mortal non fusion.
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The shared universe between some of the works of Akira Toriyama such as Dragonball, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, Dr Slump, Neko Majin, and other one shot mangas.
Jiren still the strongest mortal movie spoilers
@ninja-master: The movie doesn’t prove it. Jiren still the strongest mortal. Broly is not on Jiren’s level. Broly couldn’t even finish Frieza while Jiren one shot Golden Frieza.
@ninja-master: The movie doesn’t prove it. Jiren still the strongest mortal. Broly is not on Jiren’s level. Broly couldn’t even finish Frieza while Jiren one shot Golden Frieza.
LOL freiza knocked jiren out of the ring and made him struggle with just a planetary level attack
what are you on about
SSJ broly vs True golden frieza is not used to prove broly is stronger at all lad
and SSBerserker broly is what people will be using to mean as such
it was also confirmed by the staff/freiza who fought Jiren lad
@shintoki: A tired jiren who was already drained out lol. Even then Golden Frieza couldn’t beat him at that state. Not only that tired Jiren was fighting Goku, Frieza and Android 17. So Jiren full power would destroy Broly sorry.
One problem we have is continuity. Broly didn't defeat SSBKK Goku and SSBE Vegeta because they don't exist in the movie continuity. So it will make more sense to compare with manga continuity.
Apart from the statements that imply Broly bring stronger, we have nothing to come to a decision.
And please don't bring up Frieza's 1 hour stand which wasn't even against FP Broly.
And no one is stomping here. Vegeta, Goku and Frieza are definitely stronger than before.
Didn't Frieza last an hour or so against Broly in his Golden Form.
Even a holding back Jiren was taking out Frieza with relative ease.
Are we just going to ignore the fact that Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than they were during the tournament of power? And that freiza likely is too since he likely didn't stop training after the ToP?
I am not saying Broly is stronger but that's not something that should be ignored.
@thewatcherking: how much stronger are they stated to be? Doesn't this take place soon after the top.
@emperorthanos-: that was a gag scene, it was suppose to be funny.
@shintoki: A tired jiren who was already drained out lol. Even then Golden Frieza couldn’t beat him at that state. Not only that tired Jiren was fighting Goku, Frieza and Android 17. So Jiren full power would destroy Broly sorry.
Android was hiding so no
________
Freiza only attacked directly at the end
______
Jiren fought Goku/vegeta mostly in the manga
you are probably confused with the anime..........so pardon for breaking your fantasty
Planetary level attack / freiza crazy Ring knock out > Jiren
Broly > bald Superman alien
@shintoki: A tired jiren who was already drained out lol. Even then Golden Frieza couldn’t beat him at that state. Not only that tired Jiren was fighting Goku, Frieza and Android 17. So Jiren full power would destroy Broly sorry.
Android was hiding so no
________
Freiza only attacked directly at the end
______
Jiren fought Goku/vegeta mostly in the manga
you are probably confused with the anime..........so pardon for breaking your fantasty
Planetary level attack / freiza crazy Ring knock out > Jiren
Broly > bald Superman alien
Nope, Jiren>>Broly. Jiren did best Goku, Vegeta, and 17 at the same time. 17 was never hiding(anime version), just knocked out. Plus it took UI to defeat Jiren, and we all know UI is far greater than fusion. Plus a non full powered Jiren one shot Golden Frieza, while G-Frieza lasted over an hour against Broly.
By feats Jiren is superior to Broly.
@LeonardoTMNT: so UI Goku is greater than a fusion between Goku and Vegeta? This actually makes sense to you?
@jaakor: I am not giving an opinion about UI vs Gogeta, just making sure to state some things.
Gogeta = Vegito = 10s of time ( Goku + Vegeta ) As stated by Vados. so anywhere between 40xSSB to 200x SSB
When UI omen was introduced, the Japanese song was talking about being a 100x stronger than before (ofc it probably is a hyperbole )
However, Let's take a look on Jiren vs Goku's fight, in dragon ball super, and Goku vs Frieza in dragon ball z.
DBZ Goku fought Frieza using Kaio ken x 20, and was barely equal to 50% Final form Frieza. Just like Goku'sSSB Kaiokenx20 and was stomped by jiren whose attacks couldn't even be seen by Goku SSBKK20.
One would argue that UI omen is to SSB what SSJ is to base form Goku. and Mastered UI can be argued to be twice as strong as omen. So it's not far fetched to say that MUI is SSB x 100.
NOTE: NOT SAYING THIS IS The CASE, JUST SAYING IT CAN BE.
So if this is indeed the case, we can say that SSB Gogeta is at best twice as strong as MUI, and it can be weaker.
Even if SSB Gogeta is 200x SSB and MUI is 50x SSB, it would still be possible for Jiren to be stronger than Broly. Gogeta stomped the hell out of broly. Jiren did give MUI some trouble.
But I do believe that Broly is stronger than Jiren since Goku said Broly is the strongest he fought. But I also believe that MUI > Broly
We also have to take Heroes into account. While it's obviously just fan service fighting, the fact that MUI Goku managed to overcome SS Cumber while SSB Vegito struggled to fight base is still a comparison we've never seen before and a massive one at that.
We can also make this comparison via Kefla. SSG was able to easily knock back both Kale and Caulifla at full power, but when fused, base form Kefla aced God easily, right? So then he goes Blue and then Kaio Ken, but still struggles to win against SS Kefla. He's gone up at least 100x (though far more likely 1000x for max Kaio Ken) and still can't quite overcome SS Kefla, who only went up 50x. So in base form, Kefla is minimum twice as strong as SSG though far more likely 20 times stronger. If the combined might of a BARELY SSG level Kale and SS2 Kefla can't deal with SSG level Goku, then the fusion multiplier must be crazy, easily in the hundreds (though it varies wildly depending on how you see the SSG multiplier). Plus, when Goku went UI, it was evenly matched energy wise by SS2 Kefla but was completely outmatched in terms of speed and reaction. She didn't have a chance of hitting him without using her final attacks. That's a pretty serious gap. And then we have to realize that Jiren was able to handle UI without going to his full power, suggesting that MUI had to be even crazier of a boost to overcome Jiren at max power.
Now for a direct comparison with Blue Vegito, it's tough for sure. I wouldn't say for sure UI is higher than it...more like it's even, with Vegito having the edge. Jiren was matched hard by UI and we know that he's above Belmod's level, so UI would be able to roughly do the same. But considering MUI goes so much higher it's no question it leaves behind the "UI" level in the dust. And the highest comparison we have for Vegito at this point is a statement saying he might have surpassed Beerus in the previous arc, though that's only in the manga. Plus the fight of Gogeta and Broly, though Gogeta is a weaker fusion than Vegito. The recent statement that were even doesn't come from a voice of authority and flies in the face of all the evidence prior.
It's hard to say for sure, but if I had to make a commitment, I'd say UI is not quite higher than Vegito yet (but possibly wouldn't be able to be hurt by him due to it's sheer speed) but MUI definitely is. And since Vegito is better than Gogeta in most ways, that would put Broly beneath Jiren feat wise. However, statement wise the opposite is true. And since the new and improved Gogeta since it's post ToP, it could actually be a tough call. In that case, I'd pick Broly over Jiren. We know they grew CRAZY stronger during the ToP, so if they were to fuse in this state, there's little evidence it's lower than MUI...but also little evidence to suggest the opposite. So I'm going with my gut. I'm going to have to work some calculations and see where we're at, this is just so hard to compare off hand....
@LeonardoTMNT: Stop bringing up Frieza's stand. Not only that is a stronger frieza, but that was against SSJ Broly. (Jiren wasn't full powered either. But comparing two weaker forms with no idea of full power multiplier is not a good way to draw conclusions).
Also Broly seems to follow manga continuity than anime. So comparing him to manga Jiren makes more sense.
Gogeta = Vegito = 10s of time ( Goku + Vegeta ) As stated by Vados. so anywhere between 40xSSB to 200x SSB
Them being equal in power is debatable given KenXyro's translation saying it wasn't talking about power, and Daizenshuu saying Potara was superior. SEG said Potara was AXB.
@zoldycklogic: 200X is very low. Neither Kale nor berserker controlled caulifa were matching SSG Goku, base Kefla toyed with him. SSJ3 is exactly 400X base
Assuming base Kefla was equal to SSJ3 Goku (false btw,she would stomp him),that would put base Kefla about 4X either of them, as they were matching SsJ2 Goku and SSJ3 is 4X SSJ2,this is just base Kefla and a MASSIVE lowball to her base form
SSJ2 Kefla = 100X base Kefla = 400X kale or caulifa,(massive lowball)
Note,she beat SSG,not SSJ3...how big do you think BASE Kefla would dwarf the forms of the fusees?
Now take into account the SSJ nd SSJ2 of Kefla
Now for Goku and Vegeta, the same gap applies
Base gogeta/vegeto would dwarf their individual SSJB forms
SSJ3 gogeta would already be 400X base gogeta,in other words ,at least 400X ssjb (I am ignoring Vegeta's own SSBE form.which equates to 20XSSJB)
SSG makes SSJ3 look like fodder and SSB further dwarfs SSG
200X blue is a massive lowball because base gogeta/Vegeto would be stronger than SSB already,
Look at SSJ Vegeto vs buuhan as well
As for broly vs jiren
The light novel had frieza doubt any fighter's ability to beat broly,he has seen MUI Goku fight,the very fact that gogeta was pushed to SSJB puts him above MUI Goku from the TOP arc,and both Frieza's and goku's statement already destroys any notion of jiren matching him,as hard as that may be for any jiren fanboy
@zoldycklogic: 200X is very low. Neither Kale nor berserker controlled caulifa were matching SSG Goku, base Kefla toyed with him. SSJ3 is exactly 400X base
Assuming base Kefla was equal to SSJ3 Goku (false btw,she would stomp him),that would put base Kefla about 4X either of them, as they were matching SsJ2 Goku and SSJ3 is 4X SSJ2,this is just base Kefla and a MASSIVE lowball to her base form
SSJ2 Kefla = 100X base Kefla = 400X kale or caulifa,(massive lowball)
Note,she beat SSG,not SSJ3...how big do you think BASE Kefla would dwarf the forms of the fusees?
Now take into account the SSJ nd SSJ2 of Kefla
Now for Goku and Vegeta, the same gap applies
Base gogeta/vegeto would dwarf their individual SSJB forms
SSJ3 gogeta would already be 400X base gogeta,in other words ,at least 400X ssjb (I am ignoring Vegeta's own SSBE form.which equates to 20XSSJB)
SSG makes SSJ3 look like fodder and SSB further dwarfs SSG
200X blue is a massive lowball because base gogeta/Vegeto would be stronger than SSB already,
Look at SSJ Vegeto vs buuhan as well
As for broly vs jiren
The light novel had frieza doubt any fighter's ability to beat broly,he has seen MUI Goku fight,the very fact that gogeta was pushed to SSJB puts him above MUI Goku from the TOP arc,and both Frieza's and goku's statement already destroys any notion of jiren matching him,as hard as that may be for any jiren fanboy
I couldn't really tell what you were trying to say in the first part of the post. I have no idea why would you lowball Kefla and what point were you trying to prove by doing so.
But it was at one point stated by one of the writers if I remember correctly, that Goku was exhausted when he fought Kale and Caulifla. So Goku's fight with Kefla should not be used to scale the powers. From that fight. I just took the words of Vados stating that the fusion gives them powers that are equal to tens of time the sum of both fusees. The writers tend to use the angels to give us some reliable statements. However, feats are absolute. So even the angels can be wrong.
Note: I am sure it was stated by some of the show's characters, that I remember... But I am also sure I read it at herms' twitter page, either in a spoilers translation post or in a review post...anw
Vegito vs Buuhan:
if SSJ Vegeto is equal to ( SSJ Goku + SSJ Vegeta )x100, then =~ 200x SSJ Goku multiply it by 50 to get to base Goku. and around 10,000x base Goku, that's a little below the power of SSG ( that's why Goku said fusion wouldn't work on Beerus ). While SSj3 is at 400x base. Why would it be weird for him to stomp on Buuhan?
So just to clear things up. Berserker Kale is stronger than SSJ2 Caulifla, so we can say that their fusion is 100x( 100xbase caulifla ''SSJ2" + 150x base caulifla ) SSJ2 Kefla should be about 1.5 million x base caulifla.
I have to say 100x their sum looks a bit of a stretch. and not at all low.
@karkus: I was giving a best case scenario for Gogeta
@zoldycklogic: I lowballed Kefla to simply point out how far above 200X she was in base.
Kale and caulifa were not exactly 100% either on that fight,and even if they were, multipliers are constant regardless of your state,so it's still the same
Now let's look at your premise for Buu
SSJ vegito being equal to 200X SSJ goku
Take them both down to base
Base Vegito = 200X base Goku = SSJ2 Goku
In other words, you're implying that SSJ3 goku > Base Vegito which is wrong as on every fusion case, the base form of the fusion has surpassed the strongest forms of the the fusees by a mile
See base Kefla
See gotenks in base
See gogeta in the broly movie too
Vegito would be no different
Base Vegito would be>>>>>>SSJ3 goku
@shintoki: A tired jiren who was already drained out lol. Even then Golden Frieza couldn’t beat him at that state. Not only that tired Jiren was fighting Goku, Frieza and Android 17. So Jiren full power would destroy Broly sorry.
Android was hiding so no
________
Freiza only attacked directly at the end
______
Jiren fought Goku/vegeta mostly in the manga
you are probably confused with the anime..........so pardon for breaking your fantasty
Planetary level attack / freiza crazy Ring knock out > Jiren
Broly > bald Superman alien
Nope, Jiren>>Broly. Jiren did best Goku, Vegeta, and 17 at the same time. 17 was never hiding(anime version), just knocked out. Plus it took UI to defeat Jiren, and we all know UI is far greater than fusion. Plus a non full powered Jiren one shot Golden Frieza, while G-Frieza lasted over an hour against Broly.
By feats Jiren is superior to Broly.
Broly film is in the manga continuity < genius
your argument is that UI > stronger Goku/vegeta with dance fusion........no
still broly
and that was SSJ broly versus true golden freiza which is still way better than jiren struggling against a planetary level attack/knocked out of the ring by true golden freiza
Broly is for sure stronger than Manga Jiren, Anime Jiren is in an entirely different ball park to Broly given that Broly never fought SSJBKK or SSJBE in his movie, which makes it difficult to scale him to Jiren.
By feats, Anime Jiren blows Broly and Gogeta out of the water.
Jiren is stronger, his feats alone prove it. Broly didn’t fought ssbkk Goku nor ssrb Vegeta, not even ui. Gogeta was a having a field day with him and only got worse for Broly when Gogeta went ssj and ssb.
This
Sigh, denial is definitely strong lol. It's the constant trope in DB, the new Major villain surpasses the last one, frieza from the light novel also confirms broly's superiority, gogeta even having to go super Saiyan Blue on top his ridiculous PL amps from being a fusion already points this out,hell Goku's statement at the end of the movie hints at it too. Him not fighting UI Goku or SSJBR Vegeta is a poor excuse seeing as goku obviously knew the kaioken would be useless,hence the fusion, and unless someone thinks that MUI going is above how own fusion in it's super Saiyan forms,that is also not an argument. This is simply how dragon Ball works,I don't get why people have to be salty about it
First of all Broly is definitely stronger, second of all why are people saying ''Broly havent fought kaioken x20 and blue evolution and he struggled with Golden Frieza for over an hour as an SSJ'' Lol Kaioken x 20 and Blue evolution are Toeis creation so ofcourse its not in the movie.. The SSB Goku and Vegeta are using is the TRUE SSB form Akira Toriyama planned for them, which is in no doubt stronger than kaioken x20 and Evolution, and they were literally running away from just SSJ Broly and were so desperate to fuse and I wont even go into an argument with someone whos willing to believe MUI- > Gogeta Lmfao. Broly - > Jiren all day also Gogeta SSB - >MUI
Note: Dont use DBH as powerscaling, because they apparently made base Cumber stronger than Kaioken Vegito, and SSJ4 Vegito stronger than SSJ3 Cumber. And it was already showcased SSB CC Goku -> SSJ4 Xeno.
Aye
@ryuzaku: The movie follows anime continuity so movie Broly gets scaled to the anime.
Jiren > Broly by feats
@devoidruby: Namek Saga Frieza - > Perfect Cell by ''feats''
You cannot rely on ''Feats alone''
It's already been stated that Broly is stronger than Jiren, you cant change that buddy.
Goku and Vegeta doesnt use kaioken x20 or Evolution because they're Toei's creation.
They're far more powerful than they were in TOP. Broly - > Jiren all day.
@devoidruby: Namek Saga Frieza - > Perfect Cell by ''feats''
You cannot rely on ''Feats alone''
It's already been stated that Broly is stronger than Jiren, you cant change that buddy.
Goku and Vegeta doesnt use kaioken x20 or Evolution because they're Toei's creation.
They're far more powerful than they were in TOP. Broly - > Jiren all day.
Cell has better feats.
By statements Whis says that jirens power is like a god of destruction and might have surpassed that state and that's prior to him breaking his limits.
Their blue forms are bare minimum 20x stronger? I don't doubt they got stronger but what you're saying is headcanon.
@thewatcherking: how much stronger are they stated to be? Doesn't this take place soon after the top.
There is no statement on how much more powerful they are but we know they would be training, we even see them training in the movie and Vegeta states he is trying to get stronger because Freiza is still alive and will return. It's made pretty clear they all (Goku, Vegeta, and Freiza) have all continued training and would therefore be stronger. I am not saying that's enough to make Broly>>>Jiren but it's noteworthy.
@thewatcherking: how much stronger are they stated to be? Doesn't this take place soon after the top.
There is no statement on how much more powerful they are but we know they would be training, we even see them training in the movie and Vegeta states he is trying to get stronger because Freiza is still alive and will return. It's made pretty clear they all (Goku, Vegeta, and Freiza) have all continued training and would therefore be stronger. I am not saying that's enough to make Broly>>>Jiren but it's noteworthy.
Watched the movie. It takes place almost right after the TOP so I don't see there being much of a difference in power. Frieza wasn't even stated to have been training. Basically the difference isn't big enough to worth mentioning since the barely any time has passed since.
Not to mention Jiren fought superior forms of Goku and Vegeta on top of fighting 17 and Frieza.
@emperorthanos-: Well do you think Broly can at least hold his own? I mean was already SSB lvl in his base, in his ssj held his own with ssj Gogeta (would be above SSB Vegeta/Goku in his base), forced Gogeta to go SSB in his lssj form and even then took a while for Gogeta to beat.
@emperorthanos-: Well do you think Broly can at least hold his own? I mean was already SSB lvl in his base, in his ssj held his own with ssj Gogeta (would be above SSB Vegeta/Goku in his base), forced Gogeta to go SSB in his lssj form and even then took a while for Gogeta to beat.
He was losing to SSB in base that's why Frieza killed Paragus. His LSSJ form seems to be stronger than SSJ Gogeta but weaker than SSB Gogeta.
But I yeah Broly should be able to hold his own. I'm still more inclined to side with Jiren.
@emperorthanos-: Well do you think Broly can at least hold his own? I mean was already SSB lvl in his base, in his ssj held his own with ssj Gogeta (would be above SSB Vegeta/Goku in his base), forced Gogeta to go SSB in his lssj form and even then took a while for Gogeta to beat.
He was losing to SSB in base that's why Frieza killed Paragus. His LSSJ form seems to be stronger than SSJ Gogeta but weaker than SSB Gogeta.
But I yeah Broly should be able to hold his own. I'm still more inclined to side with Jiren.
He didn't seem to be losing at all, the fight was extremely competitive to say the least.
Towards the end of the film freiza does make it clear that he would like someone powerful to help him take on Goku/Vegeta, so it seemed to me more like Freiza was interested in seeing Broly's full power.
@thewatcherking: he was losing to be honest.
you ppl realise a Toei version of the broly movie will make broly overpowered as fuck.
just like in the anime Jiren looked way stronger than in the manga.
or just like Hit, kefla and literaly every other character.
you ppl realise a Toei version of the broly movie will make broly overpowered as fuck.
just like in the anime Jiren looked way stronger than in the manga.
or just like Hit, kefla and literaly every other character.
Yeah, when the anime comes, jiren fans will be running and looking for a time machine to take them back in time
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