@supreme_marvel said:

@takenstew22 said:

@supreme_marvel said:

@eredin12 said:

@takenstew22 said:

I think Roshi's moon feat is an outlier but Piccolo's isn't.

Not canon and completely contradicts the manga.

Nope. Toriyama wrote them himself.

https://twitter.com/BandaiNamcoUS/status/1143280571109392385

No where in that does it say Toriyama wrote it himself. Just him promoting the game.

The game also has a Ginyu Force Member take on SSJ3 Goku. Which would make 0 sense.

As does an illusion as Vegeta outright states the moon is no longer there when he tries to go great ape. It would completely contradict the manga itself. Piccolo also has never had illusions powers on a such a scale

In fact Toriyama's only actual stated contribution was creating the Ginyu Force Member Bonyu. Which wouldn't make it any more canon because Toriyama has designed several non canon anime and movie characters.

@alextheboss:

Aren't you the guy that thinks Naruto can beat frieza? Lol

Roshi's moon bust is the outlier.

Is me busting in your grandmother in an outlier? I wouldn't say so, at the end of the day both canonically happened.

No it not

Even Roshi Moon Bust isn't an Outlier and that easy to prove

Roshi's feat: Arguably

Piccolos: Nope since it's consistent with the saiyans later being small planet to planet busters, and using the anime King Vegeta destroying 3 planets feat it's even more consistent power scale wise.

Ur mom's an outlier, nobody can be that fat and still walk. /jk

No

@clarkkent10: No? I think Naruto is saiyan saga to low Namek saga level at best.

@alextheboss: how is naruto only saiyan or low namek level? a decently faster than light arguable small planet buster?

@goldie_pegasus: I don't think Naruto is FTL. That being said, I don't think a lot of DBZ characters are either.

@alextheboss: how isn't naruto ftl? dodged a light speed attack, and dodged literal photons later. when do u think dbz reached ftl then?

Z characters were FTL since KKx4 Goku thought we've been over this

Inb4 a few mUh LoNg diStAnCe tRaVeL sPeEd sLoW tHoUgH instances from characters like Krillin and Kid Gohan who don't even even scale

Even characters weaker than BOZ Piccolo have Moon-Planet level statements and feats

( Goku, Kami/Shenron, King Piccolo, Roshi, )

So no

Also lol at Naruto not being FTL

@animefreak1: And this is coming from the same mf who thinks that no one in Z is FTL or barely is. At least he's consistent

@gelato_exotic:

Nah Alex is a chill dude, pretty friendly

His scaling kinda weird though

@animefreak1: If only the Daizenshuu didn't have that trash statement about King Piccolo being small nuke level. Then Roshi's feat being an outlier would be a lot less plausible

@gelato_exotic:

If only the Daizenshuu didn't have that trash statement about King Piccolo being small nuke level.

You can have downplayed statements in Guidebooks. For example, if a guidebook says I have the power to bust a planet that doesn't necessarily mean it's my cap. But I get what you mean

Then Roshi's feat being an outlier would be a lot less plausible

I used to think it was an outlier too but it honestly not. There so many consistent statements, scaling and feats for it

- Roshi vaping the Moon ( Feat )

- King Piccolo being stated stronger than Roshi and being able to destroy the world ( statement/scaling )

- Kami/Shenron remakes the Moon ( Feat )

- King Piccolo killing Shenron ( Scaling/Feat )

- Goku stated to casually shatter the Moon ( Statement )

Pretty damn consistent

@animefreak1: I guess so since the same statement did add easily capable rather than full power or something and could just mean his power rivals a small nuke in that instance

@gelato_exotic:

Yeah they were more so referring to that attack in that instance

Also it would honestly be above city busting

Weren't regions in DB like Country Sized anyways?

@animefreak1: I don't remember, but Papaya Island which Piccolo Jr. destroyed the surface of is apparently a small continent

King Piccolo also did have this offhand statement (unless it's he same one you were referring to earlier) which would imply he's more than just a City buster (and as you say, killing Shenron who can create moons)

@gelato_exotic:

I don't remember, but Papaya Island which Piccolo Jr. destroyed the surface of is apparently a small continent

I am honestly not sure if this statement scales to all Islands in DB. It seems more like they were making this island out to be bigger than a normal island. Even referring to the Island as "Gigantic"

King Piccolo also did have this offhand statement (unless it's he same one you were referring to earlier)

This is the one I was talking about yes which is consistent since he scales above Roshi

which would imply he's more than just a City buster (and as you say, killing Shenron who can create moons)

Honestly I'm not sure if it was Kami or Shenron who remade the Moon. I mean it would scale to both of them regardless but still. I guess it was Shenron since Kami himself hasn't really shown anything to indicate he can make celestial bodies

@animefreak1:Yeah, I was just saying so since Piccolo Jr. did surface wipe it who a lot of people also think is only city level somehow

They never bother to show it on panel but this is the closest I remember

@gelato_exotic:

Yeah, I was just saying so since Piccolo Jr. did surface wipe it who a lot of people also think is only city level somehow

Piccolo Junior razing that Small Continent Sized Island has calcs putting it like anywhere from Small-Large Country level in AP

They never bother to show it on panel but this is the closest I remember

Yeah that where the feat comes from. Like I said though, don't matter if it was Kami or Shenron since it would scale to both of them regardless

@animefreak1: Scaling the Dragon Ball Manga pre Super is just weird really for the lack of feats or direct statements even (aside from Cell) until BoG and whatnot

@gelato_exotic:

tbf

DBZ is way more consistent in it's scaling than people give it credit for ( both Anime and Manga )

DBS however.........yeesh

@animefreak1: I mean honestly it's hard to find inconsistencies because of the sheer lack of feats in the Buu Saga which was endgame. Though with statements you could take it somewhere interesting.

DBS doesn't seem that inconsistent imo. It's just riddled with bad writing and characters constantly getting ridiculous plot amps to be as strong as characters they shouldn't be but then nothing really contradicting thembeing that strong.

@gelato_exotic:

DBZ Anime has more feats than the Manga

Only problem is while it also canon it feats and scaling don't scale to the Manga as it's so far above the Manga

For the Manga the only good on panel feats we have for DBZ is

- Piccolo destroying the Moon

-Kid Buu Busting the Earth

-Porunga recreating Earth

@animefreak1: Yeah pretty much, I was talking about the Manga lacking feats too.

You could probably try and say that the Manga is somewhat relative to the Anime depending on how you interpret certain statements since Toriyama did say in 2 interviews that he treats the more expository and objective statements from his characters as his own narration/WoG.

nope and neither is roshi doing it.

@goldie_pegasus:

how isn't naruto ftl? dodged a light speed attack, and dodged literal photons later.

Naruto has pre cog and you can do those things just by being close to light speed. It's like saying how can baseball players hit 100 mph fast balls. Do you think they can actually move that fast? No.

when do u think dbz reached ftl then?

It could be argued multiple different ways. If you try to scale off of the speed of Piccolo's ki blast to the moon, you can get them at FTL during the saiyan saga. If you go by actual movement speed feats and scale off those, between the Frieza and Buu saga, depending on which feats and scaling you use. If you go by pure feats and confirmed statements, then dragon ball super.

@animefreak1: King Piccolo having the power of a small nuke was clearly "meant" to be his cap. And Roshi wasn't even sure if he could solo the red ribbon army and had to go buff just to put out a fire covering a mountain, so I definitely wouldn't call it consistent.

And Shenron's power and Kami's power of creation really shouldn't be scaled, as Shenron can instantly bring back entire planets and do a bunch of other things Kami can't actually do without him. We don't even know how he recreated the moon in the first place so using that is really sketchy.

The way I see it

Tao pai pai: city block level

base Roshi/Tien: multi city block level to below mountain level (Roshi needed buff to destroy mountain)

King Piccolo: city (based off of visuals and guides) to country (based off of destroying 1/42 parts of the Earth)

23rd Goku/Piccolo: island (based off of visuals) to continental (based off of guide book statement)

max power Roshi kamehameha/Goku's super kamehameha/BOZ Piccolo: moon

@alextheboss:

Naruto has pre cog and you can do those things just by being close to light speed.

Naruto did not use Pre-cog to dodge the Light Fang. He was caught off guard by Madara Limbo, then Madara fired Light Fang which Naruto then dodged super casually twice while hindered in mid air.

Also, he he literally has other ways to scale to FTL easily. Literally in the New Novel he was capable of dodging photons at near point blank without chakra, in base, and sick and dying with heart attacks that were so bad he collapsed and fainted.

King Piccolo having the power of a small nuke was clearly "meant" to be his cap

Not really no since he stated he could bust the world which is consistent with him scaling above Roshi who can vape the Moon

And Roshi wasn't even sure if he could solo the red ribbon army and had to go buff just to put out a fire covering a mountain, so I definitely wouldn't call it consistent.

He was worried his stamina wouldn't last him long enough to solo the army. Not his power. Stamina=/=AP. You're trying to make a false equivalence of the 2

And Shenron's power and Kami's power of creation really shouldn't be scaled, as Shenron can instantly bring back entire planets and do a bunch of other things Kami can't actually do without him.

Shenron can not do anything that Kami himself doesn't have the raw power to do. This was stated by Shenron himself. I am not saying Kami can make celestial bodies but he has the AP to do so

We don't even know how he recreated the moon in the first place so using that is really sketchy.

You literally just said it yourself. Shenron can make celestial bodies. So it pretty clear how he remade it

The way I see it

Tao pai pai: city block level

Idk, I will have to check his scaling again

base Roshi/Tien: multi city block level to below mountain level (Roshi needed buff to destroy mountain)

I would say Base Roshi in the first tournament is beyond City Block level tbh

King Piccolo: city (based off of visuals and guides) to country (based off of destroying 1/42 parts of the Earth)

Which is wrong as he stated he could destroy the World which is also consistent cause he scales above Moon busting Roshi. Also further consistent cause he casually one shotted Shenron who remade the Moon

23rd Goku/Piccolo: island (based off of visuals) to continental (based off of guide book statement)

Legit scales to Goku who was stated to be able to casually shatter the Moon

max power Roshi kamehameha/Goku's super kamehameha/BOZ Piccolo: moon

Buff Roshi in DB=/=BOZ Piccolo

Piccolo's Moon Feat has higher calcs than Roshi's anyways

@alextheboss:

Naruto has pre cog and you can do those things just by being close to light speed. It's like saying how can baseball players hit 100 mph fast balls. Do you think they can actually move that fast? No.

@animefreak1 already addressed said claim above, and it should actually be noted that naruto ducks his head a good bit after light fang had already been fired and moved, so even if we were to say he did use precognition, it is still a ftl dodging feat.

what do you mean can they move that fast? what else would being able to physically dodge a ls attack mean?

It could be argued multiple different ways. If you try to scale off of the speed of Piccolo's ki blast to the moon, you can get them at FTL during the saiyan saga. If you go by actual movement speed feats and scale off those, between the Frieza and Buu saga, depending on which feats and scaling you use. If you go by pure feats and confirmed statements, then dragon ball super.

ok. personally i have yet to see any problems against ftl saiyan saga that do not have context.

what statement in super aside from dyspo, who is anime only (the ftl hype, not existence)?

Neither roshi nor Piccolos are outliers.

Master Roshi destroyed the moon, confirmed by guidebooks to be a Moon Buster with his Kame Hame Ha, it's not an outlier, Piccolo Jr. is MANY TIMES stronger than him, he can't be anything lower than a Moon Buster.

Piccolo destroying moon is legit and not arguable

While Roshi feat did happen question is it really reliable in the scaling chain he’s more mountain+ lv - multi mountain in DB

Roshi was shocked Post Korin Training Kid Goku beat whole red ribbon army by himself

He trained a bit for next Tourtament and somewhat matched Tien

And admitted he would’ve lost

Was shocked at Tien and Kid Goku’s battle and thought kid Goku with a power lv of 180 surpassed him

Admitted a incomplete KikoHo was more destructive than the Kamehameha

And stated he stood no chance against King Piccolo even before KP youth was restored.. even though Roshi had Tien + Chiatzou on his side and Tien was as strong as kid Goku at that time Who put up a decent battle against Old KP before he was knocked out.

Roshi is an outlier.

it's officially both of them now. lol

it's kinda amazing that once you remove those two outliers, THE SCALING is FIXED(i can't emphasis this enough, instead of the big meme of what if chichi could use ki meme aka stronger in power level than roshi chichi aka moonbuster chichi) but some people would rather stick to the gag ridden past rather than look for the future ig.

There is NO outlier

Judging by the series. You have to have an attack that increases your power level at least 300 to destroy the moon. When you concentrate your ki into a single point it increasing the power. Roshi power level was 139, but when he charged up his super kamehameha power level increased to at least over 300 seems reasonable. When goku used super kamehameha against Raditz his power level went from 416 to 924. When Piccolo used special beam cannon his power level went from 408 to 1,330.

In the latest chapter of Dragon Ball Super. We have a Cerealian named Flayk who destroys the moon. I'm sure its safe to say these are low level saiyans with power levels ranging from the 100's to no more than Raditz at 1,500. Notice the beam grazed the saiyan named Leek while in ape form, causing a scar. Apes have a 10x power boost, so their power level was probably above 7,000 or so. Flayk ki blast is probably around 4,000+ in power level.

@alextheboss: your argument can be shot down with the word , attack potency

@aryan87: No because the characters were impressed by the size of the crater, not the power or potency of the ki blast. It's just an inconsistency though. Obviously their powers are far beyond that.

@yoroshi0: I still find that retcon weird, as nothing in the manga indicates it was an illusion, and the moon was still gone when Vegeta got there. It doesn't say Roshi didn't bust the moon either, only that Piccolo used an illusion, so it really wouldn't fix anything.