Is he or is he not?

nah. Galaxy+ at most

His fight with beerus when not fully powered was threatening to destroy the universe

Not by feats.

No. As when he fought Hit, Frieza, or Goku Black none of their attacks threatened the universe. I doubt he's even a Galaxy buster. Probably just Solar System+ There are hundreds of billions of solar systems in a galaxy you know. The universe has only ever been threatened whenever a GoD was involved.

Not in CV

No.

maybe

Possibly yea, I place him easily at Multi-Galaxy+, people saying him fighting with characters other than Beerus makes him around solar system level (which they were at SSJ2, back in Z) has the most stupid comment of them all, ignoring the fact Goku has learnt to cancel out Universal destructive forces ever since.

The universe hasn't been threatened since because Goku learned how to cancel the shockwaves. Yes, he's obviously a universe buster, his fight with Beerus established that.

Nah.

Universe? Debatable. Multi-galaxy just as much as Odin is galaxy level.

If the shockwave went to afterlife dimension doesnt that make him macroversal xD?

It's hard to judge with the amount of inconsistency, he maybe Universal or multi galaxy+. I put him on galaxy+ until he surpasses Beerus or we see better feats of him.

A Macroverse contains multiple universes, it is as big, or bigger, than the multi-verse depending on your definition. A single Dragon Ball universe is comprised of different parts, this does not mean they are different universes.

(I know you are joking, but I'm betting someone will take this straight faced)

I have to agree, based on the fights vs Merged Zamasu and Hit not causing any risk of universal destruction, even when Goku was losing control of his Kaio-ken x10 while SSB during universe 6, my guess is that was mostly Beerus.

Not in cv? Hahahaha, I guess all comic characters never need to poo, since they don't have feats for using a toilet

OT, of course goku is universal

@jasonhitto: Lol. I watched all of DB and have read the manga from the beginning to end. I've spent hours on this website calculating and trying to form theories about the series. But no, according to your flawless logic and , I'm a "butt-hurt Goku hater." (BTW you could really benefit from an auto-correct) The fact is that the universe has never been shook or been at threat of destruction unless a GoD has been involved. All you've done is complain. Provide points that disprove what I've said.

@webinyoureye11: Well, that's a faulty comparison if I've ever seen one.

@nickzambuto:

I agree

I wouldn't sayso.

Beata

@trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsof: lol hater gonna hate...goku is universe buster whether u like it or not...dont like it dont watch it...simple as ABC

Perhaps he is someone who watched the series and came to a different opinion then you did.

What does believing x feat have to do with liking a series?

Dude, chill... It's really not that serious. And having a different opinion than you does not equate to hating on a series.

By scaling but not feats

By feats and common sense, yes. Anyone saying "no" is in one hell of a denial.

The newest manga chapter pretty much confirms fused Zamsu is galaxy level, so no Goku isn't universe level. Beerus could be though.

@alextheboss: Anime Goku has been far more powerful than manga Goku for a long time

@rukelnikovftw: Maybe, but manga Goku has the hakai technique now and was almost equal in power to fused Zamasu so I'm not sure.

It proved that a weakened and tired fused Zamasu is galaxy level, which is even more impressive. He could indeed be universe level at his peak

Beerus already had multiple statements of being universe level from multiple sources, so yes lol.

It seems you don't know how big the universe is. There are 100 billion galaxies in the universe plus their is massive amounts of empty space inbetween them. Zamasu was a couple times weaker at most, and that is pushing it considering he is immortal. And I didn't say Beerus wasn't universe level. I just don't think Goku is. Beerus is a maybe.

And not an iota of proof has been shown to substantiate any of these universal Goku claims. Color me surprised.

What?

yes i know how big it is lol

there's literally nothing in the manga that tell us how strong zamasu was at his peak, so calling him a couple times weaker isn't accurate

i didn't mention Goku lol

why is Beerus a maybe? can you explain?

In the Manga I would say he is around Galaxy Level with mastered Super Saiyan Blue.

In the Dragon Ball Heroes Videogame Goku and Vegeta managed to blow up a Galaxy when combining their best attacks together, so yeah, I would say full power Goku in the Black Goku Arc should be at least able to Blow Up a Galaxy if he used his Ki in a huge AOE blast.

In the anime? Goku is as strong as the plot requires so it is really pointless to discuss it.

I'm saying that Beerus could be universe level. There just isn't really 100% proof he is, but it is implied.

- Zamasu didn't get more than a few times weaker so him going to universe to galaxy level just from being tired doesn't make much sense.

- This thread is about Goku, which is why I mentioned Goku. Also in the manga SSB Goku=fused Zamsu so it is relevant.

- I find it hard to believe he could one shot the entire universe. Though it is implied he might be able to do it, so at this point I could definitely see Beerus being around universe level, but not Goku or fused Zamasu. Beerus literally blew off an attack Goku wasn't able to get out of.

^^this

Fused Zamasu has been confirmed galaxy buster. Mastered SSB Boku is on his level

Galaxy level at best

I know this is gonna be lost on you, since you probably put zero effort in comprehending my post, but what the heck

Goku in the beginning of the anime (I haven't read the manga, so I accept I shouldn't even be on DBS threads) was about to destroy the universe due to the clash of his punches with Beerus. At the very least, he's putting half the force/energy needed to shake/destroy the universe. And if it was purely Beerus who was causing this, then the shock waves would have continued to occur regardless of Goku learning to control his power.

So if Goku is at least "half" universal level, and has only gotten exponentially stronger(as in more than twice as strong) than it's only reasonable to conclude he is universal.

And the only thing to counter that, besides DBS's incredibly stupid lack of attention/consistency with power levels is the lack of feats. But then it could be argued that no character is shown to use the bathroom, thus has no feats of flushing a toilet. Isn't that lacking common sense? and wouldn't that be equally wrong as saying Goku can't bust anything bigger than a building since he has no planet busting feats?

@webinyoureye11: Your post didn't require any sort of effort to comprehend in the first place. It was an egregious comparison that's nothing short of erroneous.

And it seems you might want to go back and at least try to comprehend the material you're watching a little better, because you're flat out ignoring context behind the universal shock wave feat.

These particular shock waves became stronger the further they traveled through the vacuum. According to Old Kai, they would have successfully transformed the universe into an empty vacuum on the third clash, meaning Goku, Beerus, and even Whis would have been completely destroyed.

All Goku did to stop them from being generated was match the speed and angle of Beerus' punch perfectly.

You're trying to equate using the bathroom, something most characters need to do, with Goku being capable of destroying the universe to counter the "no feats" logic.

@thedarkpaladin: Your post didn't require any sort of effort to comprehend in the first place. It was an egregious comparison that's nothing short of erroneous.

Nah its not. The whole argument for Goku not being universal is because he hasn't busted a universe, no? Do you have on panel proof that Goku has used a bathroom? Maybe he burns all the food off through fighting/training and doesn't need to use a toilet.

Is it a silly comparison? Sure, but it holds up the same as the argument for Goku not being universal

And it seems you might want to go back and at least try to comprehend the material you're watching a little better, because you're flat out ignoring context behind the universal shock wave feat.

These particular shock waves became stronger the further they traveled through the vacuum. According to Old Kai, they would have successfully transformed the universe into an empty vacuum on the third clash, meaning Goku, Beerus, and even Whis would have been completely destroyed.

All Goku did to stop them from being generated was match the speed and angle of Beerus' punch perfectly

So like I already said, if the clashes between Goku and Beerus were threatening to destroy the universe, that would mean the 2 of them together have enough energy to wipe out a universe. Simple as that.

You're trying to equate using the bathroom, something most characters need to do, with Goku being capable of destroying the universe to counter the "no feats" logic.

No, I'm not equating anything. I'm simply pointing out the error in the strictly feats logic. If we can only use feats without applying any scaling, then this whole forum would be pointless, because you can just say things like, "Goku can't kill a ninja like Naruto because he never did before", even though if you think about his feats, its clear that he is more than capable of doing so

Saying Goku isn't universal, is ignoring the whole fight between him and Beerus. You can do it if you want, I'm not here to convince you of anything. But the fact of the matter is Goku as of early DBS was cabable of either:

1. causing universal shock waves with his punches
2. countering universal shock waves with his punches

Unless you're saying someone who isn't universal can clash with universal forces unharmed, in which case you're thinking flawed

In clear terms he would be Multi-galaxy++++. But as far as destroying the universe this could be done very quickly as shown by his fight with Beerus. If one could produce universal shockwaves with punches that threaten the universe and the universe is about to be gone in 30 seconds some people still wouldn't consider that universal because it wasn't done with one attack.

@webinyoureye11:

Nah its not. The whole argument for Goku not being universal is because he hasn't busted a universe, no? Do you have on panel proof that Goku has used a bathroom? Maybe he burns all the food off through fighting/training and doesn't need to use a toilet.

More accurately speaking, the argument for Goku not being universal does not simply hinge on the fact that he's never actually busted one. There aren't any clear-cut examples showing that he can accomplish such a thing on his own, nor is there anything stating or hinting that he can. However, there are examples from the anime and manga hinting that Goku isn't on that level at the moment. And you originally brought up comic characters not needing to poo, so I'm not sure why you're switching it up with Goku. We know for a fact that he needs to pee, and there isn't anything suggesting that he differs from ordinary people in this sense.

Is it a silly comparison? Sure, but it holds up the same as the argument for Goku not being universal

It doesn't really compare, to be perfectly honest. On one hand, there is evidence supporting the idea that Goku goes to the bathroom (at least #1) similar to ordinary people and other mammals. On the other hand, there isn't really concrete evidence proving Goku can destroy a universe, while there is evidence hinting to the contrary.

So like I already said, if the clashes between Goku and Beerus were threatening to destroy the universe, that would mean the 2 of them together have enough energy to wipe out a universe. Simple as that.

But it's not that simple. We're given explicit information regarding the nature of the shock waves, as I mentioned in my previous reply. Throughout their battle, both Beerus and Goku were tanking multiple blows from each other without any real issue, yet the shock waves were going supposedly powerful enough to destroy them, along with Whis on the third clash. That kind of goes to show that the shock waves were indeed stronger than the blows that were producing them.

No, I'm not equating anything. I'm simply pointing out the error in the strictly feats logic. If we can only use feats without applying any scaling, then this whole forum would be pointless, because you can just say things like, "Goku can't kill a ninja like Naruto because he never did before", even though if you think about his feats, its clear that he is more than capable of doing so

There's a big difference between only applying feats to an argument while ignoring every other piece of information and reaching a conclusion based on sufficient concrete evidence provided from the series that isn't necessarily exclusive to on-panel showings. Feats just happen to take precedence over anything else, especially power scaling when you consider just how often things like consistency and logic are tossed out the window in DBS. One could use flawed scaling to say Roshi is superior to final from Freeza from Revival of F based on his performance against Goku in a recent episode. That doesn't actually make it a fact, though. And the reason Goku can kill Naruto is because he has better feats--that's kind of how we compare characters in a Battle scenario.

Saying Goku isn't universal, is ignoring the whole fight between him and Beerus. You can do it if you want, I'm not here to convince you of anything. But the fact of the matter is Goku as of early DBS was cabable of either:

1. causing universal shock waves with his punches

2. countering universal shock waves with his punches

Saying Goku can't destroy a universe isn't equivalent to ignoring his fight with Beerus. Both of the points above can easily be countered simply by bringing up the fact that these shock waves were becoming stronger with distance the further they traveled from their generation point and didn't even start out powerful enough to destroy the Earth and its inhabitants, or the Sun, and saying all Goku did to stop them was match Beerus punch perfectly. Nothing about it proves he's anywhere close to universal on his own.

Unless you're saying someone who isn't universal can clash with universal forces unharmed, in which case you're thinking flawed

The force from Goku and Beerus' punches are unquantifiable. Unless you downright ignore the shock waves' unusual nature of becoming stronger with distance, the only flaw is assuming that feat makes Goku a universe buster.

@thedarkpaladin: I have no idea how a punch can produce a shock wave that affects the entire universe, yet not be considered universal.

I'm not even saying Goku can destroy a universe. But to deny his ability to affect the universe with his strikes is false. Thus in my book, Goku is universal level, though not necessarily a universe buster

I don't wanna argue with you, this series is terrible for the vine due to all the inconsistencies. I just don't understand how you can say that Goku isn't universal when clearly the show stated his battle would destroy the universe, and he has only become stronger since then

@webinyoureye11:

Well, I suppose you could argue that their combined efforts were able to produce something with universal range, although I'm not sure that can apply to Goku alone. For instance, if he throws a punch will all his might at some random object, I seriously doubt it would have the same effect on the universe.