The shared universe between some of the works of Akira Toriyama such as Dragonball, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, Dr Slump, Neko Majin, and other one shot mangas.
Ki doesn't pay off well in the stat of lifting strength. In the DBS manga they can't lift 1,000 tons. In the anime they can lift in the hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of tons.
A good way to think of ki is similar to a bullet. A small bullet has a fairly small total energy, however, how it is applied is very efficient. The process ki is applied is less about raw strength (though that often does help), but proper application of said force, which is a mainstay of real martial arts. This is how someone like Roshi, Krillin, or Tien, who relative to the people around them are very weak, are able to produce devastating attacks, like the MAX Power Kamehameha, the Destructo Disk, and the Neo Tri-Beam, which can cause damage and injury well outside of their weight class.
Dragon Ball has made a point that going pure meat-head strong is rarely a good idea unless your name is Broly, as was shown during the Cell Saga, which is probably why the manga referenced the 1,000 tons.
In terms of raw lifting strength, the weight training before he met Beerus is the highest we've seen, where he was moving around massive weights which may or may not have been as heavy as the most well known weights Goku used when the "40 tons" thing happened. By the posts you'll see in the Feat List collection, this material can shift in weight, so it could be as light as Cast Iron or as heavy as those ton heavy gauntlets.
But as we know, ki amplifies physicality substantially. The question is how much. For instance, there is little debate that Kaio Ken is a straight up amplifier, but there has been many discussions over how much Super Saiyan does the same. In my opinion, it does indeed amplify the strength exponentially. It would make sense that the transformations work the same way as Kaio Ken. In any case, you basically need to find a "multiplier" of the form the character is in and then determine the strongest feat they've done in any single form. Thankfully for Goku, his strongest physical feat was in base form, so we just need to determine the "multiplier" for the biggest forms and then go from there. And THAT is where the big question lies, as the multipliers of SSG, SSB, and beyond are just so hard to determine.
But if you do some rudimentary calculations, you'll find that even with the strongest feats multiplied with substantial numbers, Goku doesn't really come close enough to rival Superman in raw physical strength. I've always been of the mind (that has been further cemented with calculations) that Goku is not as physically strong as Superman, even on his best day. The real strength of Goku's attacks is in their destructive nature. For instance, a full power Dragon Fist may not have the physical strength to rival Superman, that energetic strength certainly would.
So you'd also have consider Goku's energetic strength as well, which is even harder to determine. It's basically like all of Goku's physical attacks have an explosive quality, just because ki that is that energetic. That's when we start talking about Goku's greatest feats in general, like threatening the universe, planet busting, and beyond.
@shintoki: It's true that we don't know what it's made of, but that's why we used several different possible materials that it could have been made of. That way, we have a low ball and a high ball, a range of numbers we know his strength is in between. For instance, it would be unreasonable to assume it's lighter than cast iron, because that's what normal weights are made of. And it's unreasonable to assume it's heavier than the ton heavy material King Kai used in the previous feat, since we've never seen anything higher. So, as a result, we have a reasonable range of where Goku's strength should lie.
And that's a good argument, that the car isn't affected. Normal cars can't support more than a 1000 pounds without being affected negatively. But we also must keep in mind that King Kai is a magical being, so it's possible he either changed the nature of the planet to ignore the car or made the car itself stronger to take the gravity. At the very least, we should believe that the gravity affects Goku since we've never seen any proof to the contrary. The car is the strongest argument I've seen so far, but unfortunately it's not enough to dismiss it outright.
@shintoki: It's true that we don't know what it's made of, but that's why we used several different possible materials that it could have been made of. That way, we have a low ball and a high ball, a range of numbers we know his strength is in between. For instance, it would be unreasonable to assume it's lighter than cast iron, because that's what normal weights are made of. And it's unreasonable to assume it's heavier than the ton heavy material King Kai used in the previous feat, since we've never seen anything higher. So, as a result, we have a reasonable range of where Goku's strength should lie.
And that's a good argument, that the car isn't affected. Normal cars can't support more than a 1000 pounds without being affected negatively. But we also must keep in mind that King Kai is a magical being, so it's possible he either changed the nature of the planet to ignore the car or made the car itself stronger to take the gravity. At the very least, we should believe that the gravity affects Goku since we've never seen any proof to the contrary. The car is the strongest argument I've seen so far, but unfortunately it's not enough to dismiss it outright.
then again there were table food and other multiple stuff that would be crushed by the weight so.......it is reasonable to consider the gravity does not effect no organic matter considering the nature of place/gravity as it is a planet whose gravity does not change regardless of size so yeah
at the very least there should be a : possibly no gravitational effect in the items in the feat tiers which would be more consistent with the OG manga and DBS manga
just because the attack is called "black hole" doesn't mean it's a real black hole. The attack was even producing light and it didn't lift the rubbles of the arena.
By that logic, the big bang attack is a real big bang and ribriane's anti-aging attack gives you eternal youth.
I'm just being rational. You are just desesperate for a universal feat for dragon ball. You don't care about the plot. All you care about is "Give goku a new hair color and make him stronger. I want him to solo every fiction".
And don't worry, for every "Db LoWbAlLeR" there are 100 highballers. Hell, even i wank Dragon ball from time to time.
@cramem: the show blatantly stated “a black hole which even light cannot escape”
Sounds like a black hole to me
You found a troll thread by me lol. And a spoiler thread? Which is true, I was just posting spoilers for others to see. And the spoilers at the time said they shattered countless dimensions with punches.
Also you only have like 14 posts so either your an alt so no one knows who you are or you got banned and had to make a new account
@cramem: the show blatantly stated “a black hole which even light cannot escape”
Sounds like a black hole to me
Really? That's what conveinced you ? The attack itself was producing light and it didn't even lift the rubbles of the arena
And a black hole isn't really black. If it has a color it means it reflects light. And if it reflects light then it's not a black hole. The light cannot escapes can be interpreted as "Nothing inside it can escape from it, not even light"
Doesn't sound like a black hole at all
You found a troll thread by me lol. And a spoiler thread? Which is true, I was just posting spoilers for others to see. And the spoilers at the time said they shattered countless dimensions with punches.
"A troll thread" "which is true". There is a contradiction here. You seem to really think that composite goku is omnipotent
Also you only have like 14 posts so either your an alt so no one knows who you are or you got banned and had to make a new account
The black hole feat is pretty impressive if it is indeed a black hole. The problem of course is that it doesn't behave like a black hole. The rubble isn't being sucked in, there's very little pull happening from outside, the shape is of course uneven which would impossible for a black hole, the color isn't quite right (though that could just be a artistic choice), and it's giving off light, which only happens in quasars coming out of a black hole, which happen in very linear rays of light. However, we cannot dismiss it outright because we can see the effect happening inside which is consistent with a black hole's massive gravity, it was called one, and ki is a mysterious energetic force that tends to ignore physical laws. Plus ki seems to have weight which means that if it's dense enough it can certainly create such intense gravitational effects. We covered this a bit in the Feats thread and a few others, but I think the general consensus is that while it is most likely a very impressive feat, there are too many unknown variables to quantify it. The best we can do is estimate based on its size, but even then we'd have to take it with a grain of salt considering it's most likely not a true black hole.
But if it WAS accepted as a black hole, it would certainly be his most impressive physical feat.
@trask10100: that feat was shady af like the shaking universe feat lol. Doesn't make sense to me yow does one have a black hole in a universe already void of space and time
@trask10100: that feat was shady af like the shaking universe feat lol. Doesn't make sense to me yow does one have a black hole in a universe already void of space and time
technically the place where they were had it which is the real inconsistency because if that specific place can have a space/time continuum whether artificial by the grand priest or not it would mean that the place is not actually void of space and time
Ki doesn't pay off well in the stat of lifting strength. In the DBS manga they can't lift 1,000 tons. In the anime they can lift in the hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of tons.
Anti-feat
--Tao Pai Pai with a power of about 120, could throw a pillar 2,300 kilometers away.
@shintoki: what? how is god ki relevant right now?
its a fact that if ssj vegeta post whis training struggles with 1000 tons means character like raditz , nappa , ginyu force etc. cant even lift more than normal humans.
base goku was 3 million on namek and raditz was 1200.
you want to tell me toriyama actualy have any idea how much his characters can lift?
you ppl clinch on that number , which shows how desperate you are.
Inconsistent that’s why. DBS Goku’s base form is beyond SSJ angel Goku from other world. SSJ Goku lift 40 tons easy as SSJ. Low ball Goku base to lift only 40 tons even then he would still lift more than 1,000 tons. Not only that but take account Maggeta wasn’t gonna let Vegeta lift him anyways. And Maggeta is around base-SSJ level.
@arthur_morgan: That's DB Super manga canon only. Besides, it's possible to have super strength without being able to lift 1000 tons. If we go by scale that Vegeta couldn't lift 1000 tons, then we just work backwards on percentages to estimate how much Raditz could lift. Granted, it's not much in comparison, but it would probably still be several tons of strength. Characters by that point could take bullet shots without flinching, could move fast enough to intercept them and could lift large hundred ton boulders without effort. It's basically a common fact at this point that they all have super strength in the hundreds of tons easy.
@arthur_morgan: I agree. This is one of the more frustrating parts of the Super manga. It completely underwhelmed everything we've seen previously, so it set the manga in an entirely different context. Most of the time I just ignore unless we're discussing manga specific feats.
@trask10100: dont overlook goku beating tai pao pao with broken plot armor with tai pao pao having insane lifting feats / pushing a boulder even an SS2 would have troubes lifting with
@shintoki: Indeed, inconsistency is the biggest enemy of determining the potency of all these feats. But I can't remember the feat you're referring to, when did a SS2 struggle to lift a boulder?
@shintoki: Indeed, inconsistency is the biggest enemy of determining the potency of all these feats. But I can't remember the feat you're referring to, when did a SS2 struggle to lift a boulder?
the boulder should be in the hundreds of tons hence why even an SS2 goku would have troubles with statement lad
@shintoki: Sure, I know that one well, Kid Goku and the boulder was an early sign of hundred ton level strength. But when was there a statement/instance where a SS2 could not lift a similar object?
@arthur_morgan: Ah right, naturally, that was a huge error. At the very least, there is a viable explanation if he was on a world with increased gravity. It was never confirmed of course, but it would be the only way to explain the inconsistency.
In the manga Kale lifted 1000 tons with one hand and casually throw it out of the arena so that's where Goku probably is.
In the anime Goku lifted himself in a gravity of black hole and did 50k finger push ups with a suit that was sinking through the ground without stopping.
Supes feat of lifting Earth for 5 days straight is still better than all of Gokus lifting feats unless you stack transformation multipliers to his black hole feat.
In the manga Kale lifted 1000 tons with one hand and casually throw it out of the arena so that's where Goku probably is.
In the anime Goku lifted himself in a gravity of black hole and did 50k finger push ups with a suit that was sinking through the ground without stopping.
Supes feat of lifting Earth for 5 days straight is still better than all of Gokus lifting feats unless you stack transformation multipliers to his black hole feat.
SS berserk is still a mystery and could be stronger than even SSIII for all we know in which it should
it was not a black hole more or less a gravity based attack < but it is impossible to measure the effects since we dont have information about kachi katchin but considering even roshi broke it..........
it is the best consistent thought to think that its not more impressive than a super gravity chamber lad
DBS has terrible writing < making the androids stronger they should.............
@shintoki: it was a black hole and i forgot about that feat. It stated light couldn't escape and can destroy planets. And the reason it's not destroy everything is because you clearly see them with their hands extended forward controlling the black holes area of effect. They didn't throw it out and let it be because it's a technique.
second < if light could not escape they would not be seeing any crap
third < the gravity was pulling them down < which is not how an actual one works
fourth < even if you argue they were forcing the gravity down then that would mean they had equal power to said gravity so what is the point of the attack again?
it really is not an actual BL lad
___________
the gravity was not really that impressive either as all it did is make goku feets crush the ground that even roshi broke lad goku
DBS need a good writing as this makes DB looks OP in terms of feats
@jaakor: I actually calculated that one in the Standardized Feats List. Judging by what type of material the ground was made of, the range of the suit's weight would have been between 11.75 and 351 tonnes based on the strength of the ground alone. If we assume the material is made out of something, such as a weighted material like in the 40 tons feat, we get a range between 251 and 265 tonnes instead. Then we could just assume Cast Iron weight and it comes out to around 11 to 12 tonnes. So while it's heavier than any gravity training he's done by far, he's lifted far heavier things, like on King Kai's planet. But you are right, Goku's striking feats are far more impressive than his lifting feats, that's where the real power lies.
@arthur_morgan: Actually not that fast in comparison to normal DBZ feats. An object weighing about the weight of a cannonball only needs to be fired at about 100 m/s to be a viable launch, where as the speed of a bullet can reach 370 m/s easy. So even if you hit someone fast enough to send them flying at the speed of a cannonball, they're going through pretty much any wall. With the speeds we've seen, there's no question it's possible. So unfortunately it doesn't help us determine strength by working backwards from speed.
@gaoron: You are definitely right here. For all of our work and calculation trying to prove how strong Goku is, Superman's feats are still much higher. The real threat of Goku's attacks lie in his destructive capability with ki and how amped he can get his strength and physicality up with ki amplification.
@shintoki@juzacloud: While we don't know the full depth of the black hole's power, we can extrapolate that it's greater than any gravity Goku has experienced, considering how much effort it took for him to move through it. This is a stretch of course, seeing as how the highest gravity we've heard of is 500x in this story, but it's not too far to think that the black hole technique has greater pull than this, seeing as how Goku and Vegeta are basically equal in this regard. And if you compare the pull the hole has to Goku's greatest lifting techniques, then you can get an idea for how much the pull was by working backwards.
@shintoki: the whole point of the attack is that it has the gravity of a black hole. And you keep ignoring that they are in control of it. The gravity was condensed inside of the heart shade formation. All this extra stuff you're talking about bears no weight to what the attack is about.
It's not a black whole because it isn't invisible? Here we go with real world physics.
@shintoki: Yes, it was a gravity based attack with a gravity properties of a black hole as stated and shown in the show with light being sucked on by it's gravity. So Goku in fact overpowered gravity of a black hole. And I don't care about pseudo science of how it doesn't make sense. Characters flying with super speed firing lasers from their hands never made sense to begin with.
@juzacloud:A tough question. For instance, a 1mm large black hole would guarantee destroy our planet with a gravitational pull 5,137,308,022,198,780,646 times greater than our own. Even one so small has a mass 10% of our own planet. So instead we must look at a term that most people don't know about: The Roche Limit.
This is a term that refers to the limit that a satellite can orbit an object before the gravitational tidal forces begin ripping it to pieces. It completely depends on the density of the two objects. Unfortunately I don't have time right now to calculate it, but you can determine the distance, mass, and otherwise using these equations:
If you plug in some variables, you should be able to determine the gravity. Once I have time later I'll go deeper in and calculate the proper ratio that'll determine the maximum gravity it could take.
@omega_kai: A good addition, but is there an argument that Goku fought under Earth's gravity? True, he was born on Planet Vegeta, but he basically lived on Earth his whole life. Unless the statement directly said "planet of birth", then nevermind. If it said home planet, there's some wiggle room.
@juzacloud: So I've done a little more work on this equation and this is what I have found. The basics of the Roche limit say that so long as a Tidal Force (the force of a black hole for instance) outside the normal mass is below the gravitational force (Earth's gravity) you would remain on Earth. But once that Tidal Force exceeds the Gravity Force, naturally the object starts floating away. For a planet to tear apart, you must determine the mass of the planet necessary to tear away to consider it "torn apart". In this case, it's easy. Every object on Earth is subjected to Earth's gravity, even large ones.
So the simple answer is "greater than Earth's gravity". But to do it rapidly enough to consider it destructive, I'd say twice as large would be enough. Basically, the force tearing you away would be equal to Earth's pull, so you'd be falling up at the same rate things usually fall, which is really fast.
So the best answer is twice Earth's gravity. From there, you just need to determine how far away the black hole is, how strong the pull, and otherwise to determine how fast it works. It may sound counter-intuitive, but if there was a gravitational force only twice as strong as Earth's gravity on us, we would fall into space within a few minutes. Not to mention all that debris will make things even worse.
It does make sense after all. Take for example the attack Pain used against Naruto. Strictly speaking, there's no reason why the gravity of that attack was anything more than twice the gravity of Earth. It's all it would require at that distance. Of course, the closer you get to the center, the greater the gravity increases (assuming that attack was a true black hole as well).
So the next question you'd have to add on is "How much gravity would be necessary to destroy Earth in the way a black hole does from THIS distance?". From there, we can determine more useful data.
I know this doesn't really help with the black hole feat, but if you determine the size of the black hole you can get an estimate for its gravitational pull, which will give you the answer you need regardless. That is, assuming, it is behaving exactly like a black hole.
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