Dragon ball Super manga power scaling problem.

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#1 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

In the dragon ball super manga it was shown that Trunks was almost as strong as ssj3 Goku.

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Trunks wasn't even able to beat base Black Goku, but he did confirm he fought ssj Black before.

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When Vegeta goes ssj 2 Black holds his own but is losing. This part is fine because I can live with ssj2 Trunks<base Black<ssj2 Vegeta, though even that doesn't make much sense because ssj2 Vegeta should be on par with ssj2 Goku who is weaker than ssj2 Trunks.

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However then Black either goes ssj or ssj2 and he is still losing to ssj2 Vegeta. This pretty much means Black didn't even get 2x stronger. If he did get 50x or 100x stronger then that would mean ssj2 Vegeta is also 50 or 100x stronger than ssj3 Goku...

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So basically the manga is telling me.

full powered ssj2 Trunks<ssj3 Goku=<base Black<ssj Black<ssj2 Vegeta

Which really doesn't make any sense.

Either that or Goku was severely suppressing his ssj3 power, but then why would he use his SSG form to oneshot Trunks? And even if he was that wouldn't fix how ssj only made Black like 50% stronger. It didn't even seem like a 2x boost.

Though props to the manga for actually making the character look strong when they are fighting and not having building level final flashes and still somehow having better power scaling than the anime.

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#2 Posted by EmperorThanos (10111 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: well I was discussing this on the other thread. Unlike Goku, Vegeta doesn't have a ssg form. He gained god ki through training while Goku gained through a ritual. It's possible that because of this Vegeta is able to utilize god ki in a different way than Goku. Like turning it on and off.

He is saying that his ssj2 form is stronger is superior to Trunk's ssj2 form.

And Trunks did say that Black used the ssj2 form against him in the past.

However it still would make it confusing.

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#3 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Ya even if his ssj2 form is stronger, that still doesn't explain why black turning ssj or ssj2 barely makes him any stronger. It would of made more sense if either Black had to go ssj to beat Trunks, or if Vegeta had to go SSB to beat ssj Black. I know he did, but he really didn't need to.

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#4 Posted by Beast_mode999 (2349 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's because Toriama doesn't care about powerscaling... like he never was.

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#5 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@beast_mode999: Can you give an example where power-scaling can't be explained form the original manga? I would say the only time power scaling actually gets bad in the original manga was during the buu saga, and it wasn't that bad. For the most part the super manga has been doing power scaling fine too. this is the first real problem I noticed.

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#6 Posted by Mike_Fowler (4008 posts) - - Show Bio

Like I said in the other thread, really don't see how the manga is better than the anime scaling wise now, especially taking into account the manga version of U6

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#7 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@mike_fowler: this is the first big scaling problem in the manga. the universe 6 tournament had fine scaling in the manga.

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#8 Edited by Mike_Fowler (4008 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: didn't say the U6 arc had bad scaling, I'm saying that the information from that arc makes what just happened here impossible to make sense (and it's why I honestly think the manga is worse than the anime regarding power scaling right now)

Seriously, it doesn't matter if it's the first problem when it's a problem as big as this

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#9 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@mike_fowler: What info from that arc are you talking about?

And even though this is really bad, it's still better than the anime. In the anime base Goku and Vegeta could one shot ssj3 Gotenks but were equal with Cabba who didn't even know what ssj was. Trunks was also equal with them. It's like after the purple gunk arc they forgot Goku and Vegeta's base was god tier.

Also in the black arc in the anime SSB Vegita was barely damage base Black which made absolutely no sense. And then future Zamasu who should be ssj2 tier, and ssj2 Trunks were fighting at god tier. It was like they were barely weaker than SSB Goku, Vegeta, and SSR Black.

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#10 Posted by Brobs (870 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: I really don't think Goku was fully powered up when he fought Trunks, which by the way explains everything.

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#11 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@brobs: I already mentioned that...

If Goku was holding back that much against Trunks why did he resort to SSG? Also Vegita was shocked when Trunks was almost as strong as ssj3 Goku.

Also that still doesn't explain why Goku Black's base form is so strong. It should be the same as Goku's base, but he is able react to ssj2 Vegita. And why was base Black beating ssj2 Trunks before? In the manga Goku never absorbed god ki into his base. The only theory I can think of is since Zamasu is stronger than base Goku, Goku's base was upgraded to Zamsu's power.

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#12 Edited by StardustCrusader (3148 posts) - - Show Bio

Toriyama's fight scenes aren't as good as they use to be.

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#13 Edited by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@stardustcrusader: The manga isn't done by Toriyama. Also the fights can't really be long because it's a monthly manga.

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#14 Posted by Brobs (870 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Maybe the show just wanted to show us how strong the god ki is. And someone being shocked about something really doesn't matter that much. Remember when Beerus was shocked about kaioken 10x? It didn't mean anything because we know Beerus would wreck Goku the same way.

And Goku Black is bullshit, this guy is the first to get relevant zenkai boost since namek.

I really don't know. And that's the funniest part because black saga is something I want to forget and delete from my mind.

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#15 Edited by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@brobs: True, the black arc is just weird. If they did an evil Goku arc I would of rather of it of been a version of Goku that didn't bumb his head or something. Why would you wish to trade bodies when you could just wish for unlimited power or Beerus' body or something, lol.

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#16 Edited by StardustCrusader (3148 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss said:

@stardustcrusader: The manga isn't done by Toriyama. Also the fights can't really be long because it's a monthly manga.

That's so good to know, I was pretty scared that one of the best fight choreographer had downgraded.

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#17 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@stardustcrusader: Toriyama gives a summary of the arc to Toyotaro (he does the manga) and Toei (they do the anime) and then they do their own thing with it.

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#18 Posted by Mike_Fowler (4008 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss:

The whole ssjb can drop your power to 10% BS.

The fact that ssj goku was at least around that ballpark (considering the same amount of power hit used on vegeta was uneffective against ssj goku, and his timeskip technique is only effective against people who are weaker, or at least equal to him in the manga) makes it to where ssj3 would be 80% of blue (with only ssjg being in between)

Knowing that Black was > trunks (who's equal or possibly even stronger than ssj3) in base form makes it completely absurd that ssj black would still be below ssj blue vegeta

Know what I mean?

Personally, I don't see a problem with cabba being that strong in base form

A) it's a different universe, which consisted of cabba traveling around and fighting others "in the name of justice" (wonder how him and great saiyaman would feel towards each other XD)

B) doesn't matter if he doesn't know ssj, goten knew how to go ssj, was stronger than freeza, and could make his brother sweat, yet he didn't know how to fly

One thing though that I think is possibly the case is that goku and vegeta's base forms aren't god tier

They're powerful yes, but in terms of god level, it seems like the only way they can reach that level so far is through ssj blue (considering that's when they utilise god Ki and their Ki stops being sensed).

Trunks reached that base form level through both training on his own (as noted by goku, stupid, but still an explanation) and his constant fights with black for a year (As noted by both toriyama and vegeta, a saiyan rapidly increases in strength when battling strong opponents. This could eventually lead to them turning the tables on their opponent)

Black was able to shrug off veggie's blows because of him "engraving" goku's fighting prowess/style into his body, basically adding goku's power onto the power Zamasu could already access (ssj2 post god power up goku)

Overall, I find them both kinda flimsy, but the anime did at least attempt to explain its power ups.

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#19 Posted by Mike_Fowler (4008 posts) - - Show Bio

@brobs: and what black got wasn't zenkai boosts

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#20 Posted by Queen_Marceline (7051 posts) - - Show Bio

Super power-scaling makes no sense, regardless of how you look at it

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#21 Edited by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@mike_fowler:

The whole ssjb can drop your power to 10% BS.

True, I didn't like that either.

The fact that ssj goku was at least around that ballpark (considering the same amount of power hit used on vegeta was uneffective against ssj goku, and his timeskip technique is only effective against people who are weaker, or at least equal to him in the manga) makes it to where ssj3 would be 80% of blue (with only ssjg being in between)

Goku only did so well because he knew Hit's trick. It's the same reason his base landed a hit. I would say SSG is at least 5x ssj3 and SSB is about 2x SSG.

Knowing that Black was > trunks (who's equal or possibly even stronger than ssj3) in base form makes it completely absurd that ssj black would still be below ssj blue vegeta

Know what I mean?

For some reason Black's transformations barely give him a power boost. His ssj form makes him 2x stronger at max.

Personally, I don't see a problem with cabba being that strong in base form

You don't have a problem with base Cabba being able to one shot ssj3 Gotenks or buu saga ssj3 Goku even though he didn't even know what ssj was and lives a relatively peaceful life?

In the manga his base is still weaker than namek Frieza, which makes much more sense.

doesn't matter if he doesn't know ssj, goten knew how to go ssj, was stronger than freeza, and could make his brother sweat, yet he didn't know how to fly

I don't think Goten is stronger than Frieza. In yo son Goku and his Friends his base form was only first form Frieza teir.

One thing though that I think is possibly the case is that goku and vegeta's base forms aren't god tier

Being able to one shot ssj3 Gotenks is close to god tier. That pretty much puts their base forms on par with ssj Vegito.

Trunks reached that base form level through both training on his own (as noted by goku, stupid, but still an explanation) and his constant fights with black for a year (As noted by both toriyama and vegeta, a saiyan rapidly increases in strength when battling strong opponents. This could eventually lead to them turning the tables on their opponent)

Goku spent his whole life training and his base was still weaker than Frieza. Trunks can't just fight Black for a year and have his base as strong as ssj Vegito.

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#22 Posted by Mike_Fowler (4008 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss:

Knowing hit's trick would've meant nothing if hit was using power significantly above ssj goku. Remember, time leap/skip is based on power relative to the opponent in the manga (Whis says as much). The fact that goku could not only not get stomped but also fight evenly against hit shows that he was at least in the same ballpark as the power hit used against vegeta.

I find it stupid that if black is in goku's body, he wouldn't have the same transformation multiplier for the regular ssj transformations, why would there be such a difference?

No, I don't have a problem with cabba being that strong, like I said

A) it's a different universe of Saiyans that we still haven't learned TOO much about

B) he hasn't lived a peaceful life, they're still a warrior race, they just battle evil people instead of extinguishing races and selling the planets

And I wasn't referring to base goten when I said he was stronger than freeza. I said that in reference to the fact that he has so much power and is an ssj, yet still didn't know the basics of how to fly.

One shotting gotenks isn't god tier, seriously, that's a feat that buutenks/buuhan could accomplish

Considering it took vegeta only 6 months training under Whis to catch up to goku's power and possibly surpass it (if goku was serious about what he said), I don't see a problem seeing trunks' base get stronger after fighting black for a year. Seriously, it's been constantly shown (and stated) that Saiyans can experience growth mid battle

Besides, his base doesn't need to be as strong as vegito

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#23 Edited by Royal_Warrior (3002 posts) - - Show Bio

I find it amusing that people forget that black is Goku's body post Universe 6 Arc

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#24 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@mike_fowler:

Knowing hit's trick would've meant nothing if hit was using power significantly above ssj goku. Remember, time leap/skip is based on power relative to the opponent in the manga (Whis says as much). The fact that goku could not only not get stomped but also fight evenly against hit shows that he was at least in the same ballpark as the power hit used against vegeta.

I agree it doesn't make much sense.

I find it stupid that if black is in goku's body, he wouldn't have the same transformation multiplier for the regular ssj transformations, why would there be such a difference?

Ya it's weird, but it could be that they just don't care about multipliers when they are writing the story.

No, I don't have a problem with cabba being that strong, like I said

A) it's a different universe of Saiyans that we still haven't learned TOO much about

B) he hasn't lived a peaceful life, they're still a warrior race, they just battle evil people instead of extinguishing races and selling the planets

It's their twin universe, they aren't supposed to be millions of times stronger for no reason. Piccolo being able to fight Frost was proof they weren't all god tier.

And I wasn't referring to base goten when I said he was stronger than freeza. I said that in reference to the fact that he has so much power and is an ssj, yet still didn't know the basics of how to fly.

I don't think ssj Goten is stronger either. If base Goten was around first form Frieza, that means he is weaker than Namek Goku.

One shotting gotenks isn't god tier, seriously, that's a feat that buutenks/buuhan could accomplish

That's why I said it was getting close to god tier. Only the strongest characters who aren't gods could do it.

Considering it took vegeta only 6 months training under Whis to catch up to goku's power and possibly surpass it (if goku was serious about what he said), I don't see a problem seeing trunks' base get stronger after fighting black for a year. Seriously, it's been constantly shown (and stated) that Saiyans can experience growth mid battle

That didn't make sense either, lol.

Besides, his base doesn't need to be as strong as vegito

I doubt Toriyama intended for the universe 6 fighters to be that strong. And ssj Goku was equal to SSG so that would mean Magetta is god tier, lol.

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#25 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

I find it amusing that people forget that black is Goku's body post Universe 6 Arc

Ya, the problem is his ssj form is weaker than Vegeta, but his base is way stronger than Vegeta's.

It's like base Vegeta<<<<<<<<base Black<ssj Black<ssj2 Vegeta

either that or ssj multipliers only make you a couple times stronger, and not 50.

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#26 Posted by JohnCena69swag (2425 posts) - - Show Bio

Good thing the anime is the primary canon.

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#27 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

Good thing the anime is the primary canon.

1. The anime has even worse power scaling.

2. No it isn't. There is no primary canon.

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#28 Posted by EternalGrandMaster (415 posts) - - Show Bio

DBZ power scailing is like finding out what's inside of a BLACK HOLE. Like a other user mentioned.....

The only way to make sense of the current showings of power scales, is to sum up a bit so farfetch deduction or consensus that...FP SS2 Trunks isn't equal to SS3 Goku but is actually slightly under, & he just went SSG to give him an extra decisive edge .......

It's kinda the only way to make sense of SS2 Vegeta owning a SS Black who's become stronger yet; Trunks has bad showings against him & really good one against Goku.....Goku SS3 couldn't have been FP then.

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#29 Edited by Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres (204 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Wait, when you say Zamsu, are you referring to Goku black or the Zamasu that Goku shit on in the anime? (I don't read Super's manga. Isn't ahead of Anime so I don't bother)

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#30 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Wait, when you say Zamsu, are you referring to Goku black or the Zamasu that Goku shit on in the anime? (I don't read Super's manga. Isn't ahead of Anime so I don't bother)

When did I say Zamasu?

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#31 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternalgrandmaster: Ya if Goku wasn't full power that helps a little, but If going ssj makes Black 50x stronger then that would mean he is over 50x stronger than ssj2 Trunks. I highly doubt Goku was only using 2% of his power, lol. The best thing I can come up with is going ssj only makes black slightly stronger.

Then the scale would be

ssj2 Trunks: 1

base Black: 1.5

ssj Black: 3

ssj2 Vegeta: 3 (but fights better than Black)

ssj3 Goku: 4-12

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#32 Posted by Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres (204 posts) - - Show Bio

@mike_fowler: What info from that arc are you talking about?

And even though this is really bad, it's still better than the anime. In the anime base Goku and Vegeta could one shot ssj3 Gotenks but were equal with Cabba who didn't even know what ssj was. Trunks was also equal with them. It's like after the purple gunk arc they forgot Goku and Vegeta's base was god tier.

Also in the black arc in the anime SSB Vegita was barely damage base Black which made absolutely no sense. And then future Zamasu who should be ssj2 tier, and ssj2 Trunks were fighting at god tier. It was like they were barely weaker than SSB Goku, Vegeta, and SSR Black.

Right there in bold.

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#33 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by TheKinfing (7623 posts) - - Show Bio

Super power-scaling makes no sense, regardless of how you look at it

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#35 Posted by RukelnikovFTW (2949 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternalgrandmaster: Ya if Goku wasn't full power that helps a little, but If going ssj makes Black 50x stronger then that would mean he is over 50x stronger than ssj2 Trunks. I highly doubt Goku was only using 2% of his power, lol. The best thing I can come up with is going ssj only makes black slightly stronger.

Then the scale would be

ssj2 Trunks: 1

base Black: 1.5

ssj Black: 3

ssj2 Vegeta: 3 (but fights better than Black)

ssj3 Goku: 4-12

I think Super killed the x50 multiplier alltogether, it just doesn't work like that in this part of the series.

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#36 Edited by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@rukelnikovftw: Ya it seems that way, but for Black it seems like it is a 2x boost at most, which is really low.

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#37 Edited by RukelnikovFTW (2949 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss said:

@rukelnikovftw: Ya it seems that way, but for Black it seems like it is a 2x boost at most, which is really low.

How much do you think the boost from potara was? 3x? Maybe power ups are just not as meaningful when you have God Ki

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#38 Posted by AlexTheBoss (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

@rukelnikovftw: Possibly. I was disappointed how weak their fusion was after how strong it was in Z.

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#39 Posted by RukelnikovFTW (2949 posts) - - Show Bio

@rukelnikovftw: Possibly. I was disappointed how weak their fusion was after how strong it was in Z.

Yeah, i felt the same way

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#40 Posted by Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres (204 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by RehBeh (170 posts) - - Show Bio

Well maybe Goku was holding back ? And Vegeta turned SSGSS to completely dominate Black, so that's that.

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#42 Posted by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2191 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss:

Both the manga and anime have been quite generous in the inconsistency department. The entire DBS is becoming one huge inconsistency. Power levels don't add up, asspulls of power ups. Honestly if the goal is to beat GT in the nonsense department then they are well on their way.

You're right the power levels didn't made any sense. By Vegeta performance in SSJ2, Goku should've one shot defeated Trunks. He wouldn't even need to go SSJ3 like he did in the anime or SSG like he did in the manga.

The anime also had its share of problems the biggest being Trunks super-asspulls of power ups and techniques. Also the paradoxes and simple nonsense didn't helped at all. Like Zeno blowing up a universe, but then Trunks machine is able to go back somewhere that for all intended purposes, no longer existed. But not only are Goku and Trunks able to go to a place that doesn't exist but they also exit the time machine to go get Zeno. So they exit the machine and go into nothingness and they live to tell the tale.

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#43 Edited by SpiderFan1 (40 posts) - - Show Bio

I realize this thread is kind of old, but I prefer a theory presented on the Dragon Ball Wikia site.

Basically the gist of the theory is that Vegeta retained the ability to use his "furious mutation", and because of that he has access to a power greater than SSJ3.

So it's like this: SSJ2 Vegeta (Quake of Fury) > SSJ Black > Base Black > SSJ3 Goku >~ MSSJ2 Trunks > SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta.

So basically like how manga Goku retained the ability to go SSJG, manga Vegeta can still access his "furious mutation/quake of fury" SSJ2 form, and this is the form he uses to fight Black. So rather than his normal SSJ2, he's using the one with power that surpasses even SSJ3, which explains how he can trash Black yet still be equal to Goku.

I think this is the only rational explanation, and it fits with Toyo's letting Goku keep his BoG power-up, that Vegeta gets to keep his as well. He's usually pretty good about power-scaling, so I think this is the best way to look at it.

Of course you could say there's little indication of thing being Quake of Fury Vegeta, other than the brief panels where his veins pop out like the Beerus fight, and I'll admit the theory isn't perfect, but it works.

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