So, I was having an argument and some people claimed Gotenks is only Hypersonic along with rest of DBZ cast which is ridiculous lowballing of the feat. I was going to debunk it right there but it got locked because OP had a comicbook character there.

Let's take a look on the scan, shall we?

We see an SSJ Gotenks travelling around the Earth not just limited to it's atmosphere but outside of it covering bigger circumference than Earth itself and actually more than 12 times in a single panel because he clearly mentioned he did it "few dozen" times.

Light travels only 7 times around the Earth's actual circumference.

Before anyone claims it took him few minutes let me tell you why you are wrong here because if he did it in minute long, his trail won't last for this much, we have seen these same trails lasting only for split seconds before a character moves from his initial position. SSJ Gotenks was moving here so fast that he covered Earth more than 12 times before his trail could even fade away, its clearly faster than light.

Next claim you get is that only a minute or something was remained when he did it, right? Let me tell you again you are wrong again here, its clearly mentioned in bold letter that after he performed this feat he took a nap hence wasting his time before Piccolo came in.

Next we see Gotenks is even more confident on his combat speed than his travel when he says that test was enough of a proof to dispose of Majin Buu again proving characters by Buu arc are FTL+ in combat and travel by simply scaling this feat to even faster and stronger characters since SSJ3 Goku and Buu are a lot stronger and faster than this and Kid Buu was stated to destroy 100s of planets in a year or half which requires FTL+ travel going into other solar systems.

Gotenks was cool back in the day.

I started beliving faster than life claim when piccolo stated on raditz that raditz is faster than light for dodging his beam which means beams travel at the speed of light...Also there are numerous feats for example solar flare when goku took glasses from master roshi or where he is dodging lightning which is 99 percent of light speed if i am not mistaken...

The Kid Goku feat is likely an outlier and Raditz is sub-relativistic not FTL since Piccolo's beams were only close to being light speed in the manga not entirely faster than it.

Saiyan Saga Vegeta would be Relativistic.

By Namek Saga top tiers like Frieza and SSJ Goku should be close to Light Speed via simple scaling since this feat was performed by an SSJ Gotenks who shouldn't be that much above SSJ Goku. A much faster and stronger Piccolo stated that Frieza's Death Beams are like flashes of lights to him when it blitzed him.

By Buu Arc, they are undeniably Faster than the Speed of Light with feats, statements backing the said feats or scaling whatever anyone want to discuss with.

that took him close to an hour because fusion lasts an hour and when gotenks finished circling the earth, he had less than a minute left.

that took less than an hour. Gotenks transformed and flew around Earth then when he finished, he had less than a minute left. You should calc this

In that manga panel, he makes wide circles around the Earth 4 times and is about to complete his 5th one. In the anime, he only circles it 9 times (in 5 seconds). I agree that the timeframe for the on-panel feat would be less than 1 minute given how short ki typically lasts when released, but it would be longer if he really did circle the Earth a few dozen times.

"Hypersonic" is obviously wrong for that feat, he's in the mach 10000s at the very least.

@jashugan: Fusion doesn't last an hour, just 30 minutes.

Wrong you never watched DB and you proved it time to time again, Fusions lasts only 30 minutes, he did it in a single panel, proof is his trail which only lasts split seconds, it didn't fade away while he did all the rotations. I already debunked that claim in the thread go read before claiming same thing again and again, he took a nap after this thats why he had only less than a minute left.

@thedeathstar: that's not proof at all. I'm only wrong in the time, not much of a difference between 30 min and 1 hour.

Doesn't matter what you got wrong, this feat happened in 1 panel, trail was still there. In DBZ, these same trail lasts only 1 or 2 seconds when they take off from the place. It didn't fade away while he circled Earth Dozens of times already. About 30 minutes thing I already debunked that look up :)

9 times? I see 5 there and yeah the timeframe is couple seconds at max because the trails are still visible and normaly they dissapear moments after flying by. It's high relativistic feat.

@thedeathstar: it taking place in one panel is irrelevant because we're given a time reference. He transformed and flew away and by the time he was finished, had less than 1 minute left. Unless you're going to calc that or even tell us how long he took a nap, it's not quantitative at all

Wrong, the trail takes only 1 second to fade away, we have a quantifiable feat here. Its mentioned he took a nap before he did that feat and that now he has only less than 1 minute left not because of flying which is proven done in seconds.

Actually even 5 or 9 is a low estimate, he said he did it a "few dozen" times. At the very least its Light Speed considering he covered more circumference Earth has being that away from the surface.

Trying to gauge an exact timeframe using static panels is almost never reliable and we see him circling the Earth roughly 5-6 times in that image.

Relativistic? Perhaps, but nothing about the instance serves as definitive proof of FTL travel or combat speed.

@thedarkpaladin: Since we don’t have the timeframe, you can’t say it’s not FTL either, it’s just unquantifiably a least High Hypersonic.

Where's the prove that Gotenks traveled the earth ''a few dozens'' of times.

@dession_viper:truthfully, there is no proof except his word. It depends whether you take his word at face value, then again Gotenks is a fusion of two 10 year old kids

@thedeathstar: that's unquanitifiable. Why don't you calc things given the time frame and gotenks words? You have no clue how long his nap took. Your word on trails are meaningless too. You didn't prove that flying was done in seconds either.

True, Gotenks was like 7 back then that's not reliable.

Precisely my point. There's no definitive proof of its exact speed, so any argument for FTL would be speculative.

Who is the translator?

According to this group, this is the translation.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Fusion!

http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Dragon-Ball/Chapter-482?id=261020

@firestorm808: I used official scans

@thedarkpaladin Dude, I want to provide somethings on this thread, and I want to hear your opinion, tell what you think about it, but I want to warn, that this is long, very very long.

Gotenks is not FTL not even Light speed, moon beam speed feat was plot, no character in DB was that fast in Saiyan Saga.

• No one ever dodged that specific Ki blast from Piccolo
• There is absolutely no time frame confirming how much time it takes to Piccolo's Blast Reach Moon and using anime time frames only prove that considering that no Ki blast was that fast comparable to Piccolo beam.
• Gohan and Krillin already moved themselves multiples times faster than their own Ki Blasts as well the Ki blasts from other Users like Reccome and yet still taking 1 hour even in full speed to travel to point A to point B in Namek
• The speed of the Ki blasts showed inconsistencies through the entire series I don't see why this wouldn't be one
• The other only Moon feat was Roshi's Kamehameha which no one ever dodged in Roshi's Buff Form Full Power, in RoF he proved to be strong enough to defeat multiple Frieza's soldiers that were giving trouble to Krillin
• No Character was stated to surpass the Two Realms of Speed: Sound and Light until Dyspo, and if Toriyama really wanted to proved that they are Light speed he would have done this before
• Even characters like 17 and 18 need sometime to reach Kame's house using their Travel speed
• Z-Fighters multiple times failed to react against Solar Flare(i.e Light), even when they had Knowledge of the technique.

I will elaborate.....Again.

Krillin and Gohan managed to move themselves faster than Recoome's Eraser Gun(they didn't start moving before (They didn't start to move until Recoome fired his attack) and yet it still takes hours to move between Guru's house and Frieza's ship.

https://imgur.com/a/i47nl6x

https://imgur.com/a/lU6TdhM

https://imgur.com/a/SIzilfv

https://imgur.com/a/GmSAMKY

Also should be noted that during the fight against Guldo, Krillin and Gohan showed to be able to move at speeds almost equal to those of their Ki Blasts.

https://imgur.com/a/zRVpF39

Raditz Saga Piccolo strongest technique:'' Makankosappo''

https://imgur.com/a/bjKYP0b

https://imgur.com/a/rzLWjBE

The technique was able to hurt Raditz, the PL should was above 1307(Gohan's power level when hurt Raditz) according to Raditz the technique possess a PL of 1330

https://imgur.com/a/JvPdmVy

https://imgur.com/a/rMP8mrF

By power scaling and the fact that Piccolo use this technique to attack Raditz that means that:

SBC>Moon Buster Beam

Raditz was able to barely dodged the beam, and according to Piccolo if he charged again Raditz would do the same

https://imgur.com/a/0TGm1Ra

Piccolo at that time have a PL of 408 according to Raditz, that means that likely the SBC increase his strength in 4 times for be able to pierce Raditz

https://imgur.com/a/VTeYLiJ

Nappa and Vegeta Arc:

Piccolo and Krillin uses a 2 handed SBC and a Kamehameha to kill Nappa, which he clearly notices and manage to doged with easy, even though that he was hurt

https://imgur.com/a/mI1Q0yg

https://imgur.com/a/fe7k8pK

By the logic they should be FTL don't ? Yes, they should, but guess what ? They don't.

Goku with a PL of 8000 takes 28 hours to cross all the snake way which have 1.000.000 KM.

After Goku finsihes training with King Kai, he gets wished back to life and must make his way back to King Yemma across Snake Way (1 million Km) to meet Kami who can take him back to Earth

King Kai suggests Goku can make it in two days at his current speed, but he also says the Saiyans will arrive the next day.

Snake Way is 1,000,000km long, and when Goku left King Kai, it seems he expected Goku to go the distance in 2 days at his current speed. This tells us that at this point in time, Goku can shift at 20,833Kmph, or 12,945mph. This seems fair since King Kai has been training Goku, he should know how fast Goku is and how long it would take him.

https://imgur.com/a/wgU0lMa

As we know though, Goku didn't take 2 days. He arrived back to King Yemma the next day, 3 hours and 37 minutes after the Saiyans arrived.

https://imgur.com/a/x77KWOE

https://imgur.com/a/AAoF5aU

https://imgur.com/a/4Esb1Ky

https://imgur.com/a/ROLBibn

https://imgur.com/a/kHqKOh8

In the Kame House when Goku calls Master Roshi via King Kai, Bulma and Oolong are about to eat, or have just started eating:

https://imgur.com/a/ViXUHpY

A quick google search shows a number of sources stating that lunch times in Japan traditionally run from 11:30am to 1:30pm.

ASSUMPTION: If They started lunch at 11:30am and took a further 13 minutes from that point to calling the dragon and wishing Goku back to life, then Goku traversed Snake Way in 27 hours and 37 minutes. I personally dont find this a huge leap. Toriyama specifcally made King Kai mention the "next day" and he specifically mentions times of the day that add another 3 hours and 37 minutes onto the time of arrival of the Saiyans.

This is a speed of Mach 30, Combat speed by fans calculations in forums and other debates are 10 times faster than travel/movement/flying speed, but Goku clearly moves faster than Nappa's brain can process, even though that Nappa can easily avoid a 2HSBC and a Kamehameha from Krillin which was at that time stronger than Raditz, and he moves faster than Raditz reaction which was only able to barely dodged, but Nappa clearly moves before the beams even touch him.

https://imgur.com/a/C5pGGGh

https://imgur.com/a/jokwI9I

https://imgur.com/a/1SbiLH0

Should be noted, that King Kai stated that Goku would arrive in 2 days, and the fact that he arrives sooner proves that he was going fast as he could.

https://imgur.com/a/KRYGYQD

As you can see, so that means:

Goku Mach 30 flying speed > Nappa's reaction speed>2HSBC>or=Krillin Kamehameha>Raditz's reaction speed >Piccolo Raditz saga SBC>Moon buster beam

Note: The Guidebook also confirmed that the Snake Way have 1.000.000 KM

Serpent Road

Area: Afterlife

Special Characteristics: A road that links the northern Kaio Planet with Enma Daio’s castle. It’s called the Serpent Road because it is shaped like a serpent. Its total length is approximately 1 million kilometers. If you lose your footing on this road, you will fall into Hell and will be unable to return.

Frieza was able to casually moves faster than the Beams from Gohan, Krillin and Piccolo fused with Nail, actually his beams are fast enough that not even a person like Piccolo can see, he says that he only saw a little light, similar when someone fired a bullet and we are only able to see the light, Frieza also moved faster than they Eyesight, but Goku easily reacted against his beams and attacks, but yet, Frieza blitzed him multiple times while moving and attacking in their battle.

https://imgur.com/a/2aXUpym

https://imgur.com/a/8dknrRe

https://imgur.com/a/lZgiYy0

https://imgur.com/a/8sDQC9E

https://imgur.com/a/Znupctw

https://imgur.com/a/KoO274X

https://imgur.com/a/ISr9Mhb

https://imgur.com/a/lwQKmr3

https://imgur.com/a/ztyG3ZF

https://imgur.com/a/KSKxfu1

https://imgur.com/a/p0FmMAC

https://imgur.com/a/mckylMX

https://imgur.com/a/5ETzZA1

https://imgur.com/a/dIbA1U0

https://imgur.com/a/dhA3jpZ

https://imgur.com/a/m3sRPUp

Frieza movement/travel/flying speed >Goku's reaction> Frieza Nail beams>Namek Saga Z warriors reaction = Namek Saga Z Warriors ki blasts> Goku Mach 30 flying speed > Nappa's reaction speed>2HSBC>or=Krillin Kamehameha>Raditz's reaction speed >Piccolo Raditz saga SBC>Moon buster beam

Following the Moon buster beam logic, Frieza should be FTL right ? Yes, but guess what ? He is not. Why can I say that ?well let's use a example of a stronger character: Gotenks SSJ, which according to Piccolo is stronger than Goku and Vegeta(Buu saga):

https://imgur.com/a/t0jT70P

Gotenks according to himself circle the globe dozens of times let's say that he circle the earth36 times in 25 minutes and sleep for 4 minutes and some seconds(the fusion only last 30 minutes and Piccolo was above frieza that time, he should be able to reach Gotenks in a short amount of time, so I assume a quantifiable time frame)

• Earth's Circumference: 40.075 KM
• Fusion time limit: 30 Minutes, 1/2 Hour
• He circled the globe: Dozens, likely 36 times
• Time: 25 minutes, 1500 seconds
• He cross 36 times 40075 KM, that means he cross at maximum: 1.442.700 KM in 1500 seconds
• Speed=Distance/Time
• Speed=1.442.700/1500
• Speed=961,8 KM per second

As you can see, Gotenks which is stronger than Goku and Vegeta Buu saga, have a travel/movement/flying speed of 961,8 Km per second, Piccolo is obviously tired and sweating due the fact that he was after Gotenks even though that he is stronger than Frieza

Note: Is pretty obvious that Gotenks wasn't going all out, but the fact that someone stronger than Frieza took a considerable amount of time to reach him, time enough for Gotenks sleep, is pretty obviously that they weren't not Relativistic in Travel speed in Namek Saga, and should be noted that Gotenks in the Japenese translation never stated that he circled the globe Dozens of times, only several times.

Vegeta statement about Power levels

https://imgur.com/a/V404BjF

Si mi poder de pelea ha aumentado es logico que mi velocidad tambien aumenta

If my power level has increased it is logical that my speed also increases

Conclusion:

Gotenks SSJ Flying/Travel/movement speed>Buu Saga Piccolo Flying/Travel/Movement speed> Namek Frieza movement/travel/flying speed >Goku's reaction> Frieza Nail beams>Namek Saga Z warriors reaction = Namek Saga Z Warriors ki blasts> Goku Mach 30 flying speed > Nappa's reaction speed>2HSBC>or=Krillin Kamehameha>Raditz's reaction speed >Piccolo Raditz saga SBC>Moon buster beam

Note: I believe that the Buu tiers dudes are indeed Relativistic, but with so many consistent feats, the Moon feat speed shouldn't be taken at full value and as a absolute proof that the Z-Fighters at SS Saga were relativistic, consistent feats and statements shows that they are not.

And we have Vegeta's Final Flash with a speed of Mach 40.000-45.000 as well Cell Kamehameha which possess at least the same speed, Goku also react against the attack.

https://imgur.com/a/b6iMvl3

With this we can at least confirm that they reaction and combat are faster than their travel speed, this was kind of proved using Tao's feat.

And we have Yamcha's statement saying that Master Roshi's house is 10.000 KM from where they are, and Goku was trying to proves that he could teleport and everyone when see the distance believed in him, and based on Vegeta's reaction and face, is pretty obviously that he huge distance was enough to convince him, the same guy that was in par with First Form Frieza, which means that at that time they don't have a speed of not even 10.000 KM per second, actually, considering that Vegeta was training even after the Frieza saga when can say that one year and half later, he would undoubtedly be stronger than Frieza

https://imgur.com/a/r3JO0Vs

https://imgur.com/a/Tiq40bA

Ughh, not the math again.

Also, those colored DB scans look awesome.

@joviolma: Pretty good find. I definitely don't agree with the idea that they're FTL prior to DBS, or I've yet to see any convincing arguments for it anyway.

The common claim I see thrown around is Raditz being LS/FTL for dodging one of Piccolo's more powerful attacks than the standard Ki blast he used to destroy the moon...only we have no clue how long it took to reach the moon in the manga. As for the Special Beam Cannon, there is evidence suggesting it isn't the speed of light or greater:

https://imgur.com/a/SOxlP

You can clearly see the light produced from the attack reaching Goku and Raditz' faces long before the attack itself comes anywhere near them.

@joviolma: lmfao

@death2heretics:

Thank you.

I don't think using the trails is the way to go. That doesn't make it definitive and a "debunk."

It's questionable, but this doesn't make FTL travel speed concrete in this instance.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/dragon-ball-universe/4015-56629/forums/dragonball-universe-standardised-feats-list-1847904/?page=10#js-message-19290735

FTL Feat - Goku Deflecting Death Beams

How Fast Are Death Beams?

I found this guidebook series that is published by Bird Studio, but I can't find a Japanese version. It's called the Dragon Ball: The Legend of Manga series. There are some other pages that you can find on google images if you search its name.

Within this book series is a section for Frieza.

The General Translation (Correct me if I'm wrong):

(The one with Frieza doing his death beams) This beam of light emitted from his fingers was so fast that no one could see it.

I also understand that this guide uses "light" in a previous page too.

"Lethal Technique" Bakuretsu makoho.

On a similar manner to the kamehame-ha, this lethal technique allows to shoot a beam of light from the hands.

This technique is so terribly powerful that it could even erase a city off the map with one attack.

"Lethal Technique" Kaikosen with the eyes.

Allows to shoot light beams from both eyes. It has more accuracy, but less destructive power.

The difference with Frieza is that we have context clues to back up the guide's statement.

http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Dragon-Ball/Chapter-304?id=260891

The fact that these Death Beams are much faster than any Ki attack before is supported by the reaction and statements in the manga as well. Piccolo's Ki blast that destroyed the moon and his Makankōsappō are at least 4% the speed of light as shown in a previous post of mine.

These sub-relativistic characters could not see them, so considering the rise in power between Raditz Saga and Frieza Saga, it's believable to see Death Beams as the speed of light.

Measurements

Calculations

Image 1

Goku's Height = 1262.6 px = 1.75 m

Goku's Band Horizontal = 96.6 px = 0.13389038492 m

Goku's Band Verticalal = 73 px = 0.101180104546 m

Image 2

42.2 = 0.13389038492 m

30.4 = 0.101180104546 m

Assumed Speed of Death Beam = 3 * 10^8 m/s

Distance between Death Beam 1 and Goku's hand = 99.6 px = 0.316006690475 m

Time for Beam 1 to reach Goku = 0.316006690475 / (3 * 10^8) = 1.0533556349 * 10^-9 s

L&R Distance Between Goku's Hand and Beam 1 = 86.3 = 0.273809009919 m

Goku's Hand Velocity for Beam 1 = 0.273809009919 / (1.0533556349 * 10^-9) = 259939759.04 m/s = 86.7065705302033 % SoL

Distance differece between Beam 1 and Beam 2 = 35.5 = 0.112632906745 m

Time for Beam 2 to reach Goku = 0.112632906745 / (3 * 10^8) = 3.7544302248*10^-10 s

L&R Distance Between Beam 1 and Beam 2 = 55.1 px = 0.174818962301 m

Goku's Hand Velocity for Beam 2 = 0.174818962301 / (3.7544302248*10^-10) = 465633802.824 m/s = 155.3187181326623 % SoL

Conclusion

Faster than light speeds have been proven to exist since the Frieza Saga.

@joviolma: Wow, you are so dead wrong with your calculations and physics, its not even funny.

1. You used a 25-minute time frame, these trails don't even last 5 seconds.

2. You used Earth's circumference when he was way high above the surface.

3. Moon feat isn't plot or anything since later characters have shown faster speeds dodging same beams. Its' pretty much accepted by many people that it's not an outlier for Piccolo even on the other thread. Why does every feat have to be an outlier when it comes to DB? I bet if even if we had a concrete statement about light speed in DBZ people would again have ignored it knowing my experience from the site but that doesn't change facts.

4. You are using a Saiyan Saga Goku who barely even flew at his top speed so he can save his energy for the battle, this is proven when he says he needs flying nimbus so he won't waste his energy for the fight.

It's not even 1 million km that people use here. In the manga, an observer states that he heard "legend says it's about a million kilometers" long. Its not concrete evidence for its distance.

True but we also have to consider his rotations around the Earth wasn't on the surface but at a much higher altitude, at the very least it's Relativistic and possibly above Light Speed if we take a 1 or 2 seconds time frame knowing how long a ki trail lasts when characters in Dragon Ball move from their initial position.

Its speculative. Not an undeniable proof of FTL travel speeds, the way I see it yes it holds weight in a debate. For travel speed at least. However since so many character have FTL+ travel speeds it becomes common.

While that may be true, Gotenks here was more confident on his combat speed than his travel speed when he did it and Dragon Ball is known for its Combat>Travel thing which again his statement is a further proof of that. This was just Super Saiyan version of Gotenks, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is several times stronger and faster not to mention Buu destroyed 100s of planets in few years which again would make his travel speed FTL+ to do that because he has to go into other solar systems in just a few years. Light would take around 10s of years to do the same.

@thedeathstar: I know about that feat from boo. I know for DB combat > travel. But I stand by what I said. There is nothing as a clear cut evidence or proof enough to dismantle it. Buu was actually shown to be very powerful because also he was supposed to be the final enemy by Toriyama.

Yea.

@empressofdread: " in just a few years hundreds of planets were wiped out" it doesn't mention Buu's name in that balloon text. Also it doesn't mention how they were wiped out, was a space ship used to wipe out the planets?' or is supreme kai being vague again and is he talking about the natural order of the universe of how planets get wiped out by their stars over time.

@shenron007: you are taking it too seriously. I never said it holds any sort of relevant in the debate. 1st form freiza is a planet buster.

You are making yourself sound less credible if you are denying this one because this was Kid Buu who could neither be controlled nor be taken into any ship. Its clearly contexted towards him.

If he only had a minute left of the fusion then that means it took him 29 minutes to circle the Earth. That is well below the speed of light.

@thedeathstar: I like that you pointed out the radius was much larger than most people are aware of.

But "time" is not really clearly stated to me here and you have to guess it, which doesn't convince the doubters.

The people that lowball DBZ would say something along the lines that the trails here are just used to show us artistically he went around the world a fee times, just like we see speedster trails in comics. It just represents their "travel paths."

I'm not arguing for or against either.

Obviously gotenks took some minutes to circle the globe, Piccolo would never take that amount of time to reach Gotenks, he was stronger than Frieza at that time, and when Piccolo found him he was sweating and according to him he Gotenks had less than 1 minute, proving that more than 29 minutes have passed.

@joviolma: you can say you don't know how long his nap lasted either.

I think that just some minutes, like I said, is unlikely that Piccolo would take like 10 minutes to reach him, he likely sleep for at least 5 minutes.

@jashugan: "Not much of a differnce between 30mins and 1hr." 1hr is literally double of 30mins ?

Lol.

"Debunking"

Lol

Hey at least I am not the one proving 2m km long Dragon Ball lol.

@joviolma: We can't assume times here, that's the problem with either arguments.

You said "proving" so you acknowledged that i proved that the dragon ball universe is less than 2 million km long otherwise you would have said "Tried to prove"

So Thanks :)