@nemesisreloaded: so do you agree with my feat calc or not.

Judging DBZ characters is difficult and many people have there own interpertation of there own characters.

Based of my calcs characters in DBZ that are FTL are amalgam characters. Though This isn't counting the movies or GT.

In DBS they are most definitely FTL.

@chronicplane: Which post?

@apex_pretador: post #131

@chronicplane: No

The instant you used "2 seconds", the entire thing became flawed already.

We only know that he circled earth 6x in 29 minutes and took a nap. For all we know, he could've taken 1 minute for each circle and took a nap for 23 minutes, or he could've taken a nap for 5 minutes and took 4 minutes for each trip.

And then, you used multipliers, which, for me, disregard your entire post. Not only nothing scales with power levels, but also, the idea of power levels is flawed as already established in saiyan arc.

@apex_pretador: what are you talking about I didn't even bring up or use power levels or scaling.

Second the ssj multipliers (forms 1-4) are a thing and canon stop low balling dude. Everyone should know of these multipliers and that they are a thing it's how the transformation works.

Third, my calcs are not official and DBZ is difficult to judge. I used 2 seconds for simplicity sack that and the fact he appeared to be doing it casually and didn't appear to have used all of his power.

I expected people to disagree with my calcs as I know on the vine no one excepts them, Please show respect, no insults and rude behaviour.

In the feat I calced I was being generous to Gotenks and if you want to put it "highballed" if you will but even with that doesn't make him FTL so you as a comic fan why are you complaining.

If I really wanted to I could've low balled his feat to the ground and say he circled the entire world each time in a minute but I didn't as everyone on both sides would most definitely disagree with that.

@apex_pretador: my calcs aren't to much of a stretch, DBZ characters are really powerful especially gotenks.

How would you judge the characters then?

LMAO, you accusing me of lowballing DBZ characters?

.

Me who has made three respect threads for dragon ball characters, and has represented them twice in CaV's, being accused of lowballing by some random user who probably never contributed to Dragon Ball on this forum ever. You know what, I didn't even get bothered by your rant, but it just makes me sad, as this is the reason that people shit on dragon-ball fanbase, and this is the reason it is still banned on this site.

Try to be objective dude, and grow up.

@apex_pretador: link threads of your respect threads or your CaVs.

Second, If you don't know I am actually a fan of dragon ball and I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way. Everyone has there own interpretation of there favourite characters and like Ive said my calcs are unofficial I was just going of a feat gotenks achieved again sorry.

Again I'm sorry if I came of the wrong way I didn't wanted to start a flame war all I ask is for you to show some respect I just gave some thoughts on this and you are already attacking me calm down dude

@apex_pretador: Listen dude I don't want to start a flame war ok so Just lay off with the insults and control your temper.

All that I said is that the multipliers are a thing and that I didn't use power levels/scaling.

Again and please I beg of you, I'm sorry ok for accusing you of lowballing I love dbz as well It's just very difficult to judge.

i already know that.

@chronicplane: Calm down.

I am not angry

Also, I didn't want to come off as rude or anything else, nor am I attacking you. You asked me to give my opinion on your opinion and I just did. I am as much entitled to speak freely as you are.

Also an advice, try to not multi-post and say what you want to say in one post. Multi-posting means people will take you less seriously.

@apex_pretador: that's fine I just wanted to apologise how would you rank dbz characters in terms of speed on an average. I don't want there to be any hatred/malice between us I'm sorry.

Also I'm currently on holiday and I'm typing on my iPhone sorry for my format don't have access to my computer

There is no hatred, no need to apologize. I don't get bothered for no reason. Don't worry. I just wanted to tell that it is sad that how a large portion of dragon-ball fanbase in general when it comes to objective and unbiased analysis of feats.

They are inconsistent, so it is hard to rank them. However, ever since Red Ribbon Army arc, I'd say they have been hypersonic, and Dyspo is apparently thousands of times faster than light.

So, everyone else lies between hypersonic and thousands x FTL.

@apex_pretador: Pretty sure DBZ characters have far surpassed hypersonic those speeds existed in the original dragon ball.

DBZ characters on an average should be within the range of reletavistic - FTL

Also just a question but how would you judge gotenks world feat on an average

I guess this makes this DC street leveller, faster than most Dragon Ball characters.

Gallery

Like I already told you, I dont agree with you, but what I said was that IF any characters in DBZ were actually FTL, it would be SS3 Gotenks, Buuhan and Vegito.

The Gotenks feat is not calculable, not really. You can get a range but that's about all. The fact is that in the manga there is absolutely no way to know how long he took to circle the Earth 6 times. Lots of people take the fact you can see 5 loops of trail to denote it happened in seconds. You might be the same. But what it really is is Toriyama drawing that so you know he went round the Earth a bunch of times and he doesn't have to waste pages to show you it. The fact that TOEI consult Toriyama on things like characters and what panels mean, demonstrates that when the anime shows a time-laps of minutes flowing by, which you can see from the rotation of the Earth (the only time it ever happens), you really should take that one panel as a demonstration of travel distance only and discern no indication of time-flow from it whatsoever.

In the anime, the animation shows 1 hour and 50 minutes (give or take a minute or two) go by in the time it takes for Gotenks to go around the Earth 9 times before he lands again. If it was really only seconds, or even a minute of time, you see next to zero spin of the Earth. This is literally the only time the Earth is shown to spin in the anime at all. It's only reasonable to suggest that this is one of those times Toriyama got involved and described how it should look, otherwise TOEI would do what they always do and just much more cheaply and less time consumingly draw a still Earth.

Now, Piccolo said he only had 1 minute of a 30 minute fusion left. There was also time taken between fusing and going into space which lasted 1m40s in what may or may not have been real-time footage, then after he landed there was 2m45s of Piccolo finding and waking Gotenks and then Gotenks flying away again.

That means that Gotenks flight around the Earth and his nap together took 24m35s, IF the rest of the footage is considered real-time.

So say he was travelling for 12 minutes and covered the Earth 9 times. That's a reasonable way to view the event. Seconds, really isn't.

In that time, Goku travelled around the world 9 times, in 3 groups of 3 loops. Comparing them to the diameter of the Earth amd calculating the circumference of each loop, Gotenks travelled a total of 521,142.6km or 323,823.8 miles.

If Gotenks took the full 24m35s to make that distance he would have been going 790,135.3 mph (0.12% light speed).
If Gotenks took the 7s in the anime that it took for the 9 loops, he would have been going 166,537,954.3 mph (24.8% light speed).
If Gotenks took the 12m I'm suggesting we go with, he would have been going 1,619,119 mph (0.24% light speed).

But you HAVE to take account of the visible rotation of the Earth. You can't ignore it. Which means we HAVE to be talking about minutes, not seconds. Even if it was just 1m it would still only be 2.9% light speed.

I've already explained to you why you can't just assume that speed scales directly with power, so just because SS3 Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, Buuhan and SS Vegito are much more powerful than SS Gotenks, there's no reason to suspect that they actually are FTL. Take into account that even DBS is literally only just talking about light speed travel as a thing to consider and I think you can understand why I don't think ANY DBZ character is light speed. Reletivistic? Maybe a yes, just, but even then, I'm not entirely sure any of them reach 10% lightspeed.

Sorry for the really long post.

@lvenger said:

I guess this makes this DC street leveller, faster than most Dragon Ball characters.

Gallery

Afterthought is not faster than most Dragon Ball characters, he is probably Batman levels of fast. However, Afterthought has total precognition of events that will happen 5 seconds into the future. So, anything that starts longer than 5 seconds before the outcome, he will be unable to predict it, and if it is too powerful to stop after it starts, he is powerless in that situation.

For instance, he wouldn't know what would happen with Piccolo's Hellzone Grenade until he was already partially surrounded.

Afterthought's power is awesome, but please do not misrepresent it.

Edit: Or are you talking about the Ray?

Because if you are, I have a serious question on what "street level" means if someone fights Darkseid's Brimstone who can incinerate matter on touch and the fallen angel Neron

@nilok: Um I was joking mate, I know it sounds like I wasn't but you really thought I was being serious? C'mon lighten up a little :P I'm well aware of Afterthought's power to see 5 seconds into the future but it's still funny how he basically reacted to a lightspeeder with it.

@lvenger: Sorry, sarcasm doesn't translate well into straight text.

@nilok: I've done the same in the past so it's all good. The Internet may not be the best place for sarcasm.

I don't know what people talk about, the Gods have MFTL feats for themselves so they do not rely on anyone and it's also not confirmed how much faster is Dypo than the speed of light though it is mentioned he long surpassed it in repeated battle which I think DBZ characters also did.

how many times faster than light do you think they are?

More than a few thousand times ftl for sure. Speed boosted dyspo blitzed them. Should be fairly straightforward what that means for goku and the others.

I really don't see how this just now proves that this is the first time they have ever fought at ftl speeds

Lmao didn't Goku have to train with Kami to be quicker than lightning just to be able to challenge King Piccolo...the speed of lightning is 1/3 the speed of light. Your telling me Raditz wasn't faster than light? Vegeta wasn't faster than light? What a joker.

@apex_pretador: show me a ki trail that lasted 23 minutes

@jooosh1996: Well all of Kami's training was filler. In the manga it just skips straight to the next tournament. Besides quicker than lightning could just be a simile anyway. Regardless this doesn't prove that they have never gone faster than light until super.

What I wanna know is if Dyspo going at speeds faster then light causes his movements to be to linear....does that mean this movement is to fast even for himself to properly control/react to? Man this stuff is confusing.

Nope, Goku has been MFTL since SSJ2, Toppo saying that doesn't mean they haven't

He just said Dyspo is faster than light, could be million times faster than light, could be 1x faster than light. We do know feats wise, DBZ were MFTL.

Would you mind providing any evidence proving that statement or disproving the evidence already provided showing the contrary?

Actual proof for that?

@apex_pretador: well since literally characters ki blasts are so fast that they’re able to reach the moon at the speed of light in just early Z when these characters wer eve weaker than raditz they’re still able to fire off attacks at or very close to light speed so just by that alone they should be MTFL already

Frieza’s casual death beams have been described as just beams of light by piccolo and frieza in just first form is able to launch attacks that can reach other planets very quickly

Goku being able to cross from one end of a planet to another in a second before he even knew how to go super saiyan

All links will be provided

https://m.imgur.com/Xwg8zz3

https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11124/111245244/5328011-2.jpg

http://pa1.narvii.com/6429/0b554639bb0c62c58f82fc02f92281f1ee26ec98_hq.gif

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111136167/4925119-

goku+speed+calc+base+form+planet+namek+%231.jpg

You do realize that text was created well after the manga was written, not anyone actually involved in writing the actual manga in Japan?

In the actual chapter that happens, Goku himself said himself they were close by, not on the other side of the planet.

@nemesisreloaded said:

No evidence that suggests it was 10 to 14 milies that's straight out downplay and half away around the world came from official shonen jump who publish guidebooks too. You just can't nitpick pick things

Manga Chapter 290 - where the Dragonballs get left are within view of Frieza's ship where Goku is healing.

Manga Chapter 313 - where Dende was resurrected, the location of the fighting of Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin vs Frieza, within view of where the Dragonballs were left after Guru died of a broken heart

Personally, I would say that 10-14 miles away was a vast over estimation. I personally would say Goku travelled at most 3-4 miles. WHen his finally heals, Goku even says they're not far away. I'll take pictures over what some guy at Shonan Jump wrote on the back cover without bothering to think about it.

Unfortunately you're post is difficult to make sense of and understand what you're replying to, so I haven't looked at the rest too much, but it might all be related to this one topic, which I've just proved with scans was really close.

@nilok said:

I can very easily explain why he is not FTL on Namek, because Toriyama gives us an example of "insanely fast" when Goku returns to Earth almost two years after his fight with Frieza.

When Goku returns to Earth, he shows off his new Instant Transmission to everyone. Using it, he instantly goes to Roshi's house, grabs his glasses, and returns. Everyone, even Vegeta is floored by this showing of speed. We can assume that it takes Goku 1 or 2 seconds to grab Roshi's glasses and IT back. This gives everyone the impression that he traveled 10,000km two ways in around a second. This tells us that anyone who is as strong, or weaker than Vegeta at this time cannot believe going 15x slower than the speed of light.

I'm leaving the whole quote in here because BG is still trying to push his head-canon that Goku traveled around the planet Namek because of a blurb Viz added to the back of the manga.

@nilok said:

You have a few problems with your assumptions.

First, because Namek is the same size as Earth, we know that Goku only traveled ~10-14 miles. This is because where Krillin and Gohan moved the Dragon Balls was still within line of sign of Frieza's space ship and Frieza didn't chase Vegeta and everyone half way around the planet. The half way around the planet thing, as far as I can tell, was from the translation.

Second, we cannot assume that all ki blasts travel the same speed, or that power levels multiply someones speed linearly. Power levels are simply how much energy someone is giving off, not how they can apply it. SSJ Grade 3 has a crap-ton of power, but its main weakness is it's slow.

We also know that at least during the start of the Android Saga, moving at Light Speed is beyond the cast, as they, including Vegeta, were shocked that Goku could travel 10,000km to Kame House and back in a second using Instant Transmission. That is 15x slower than the speed of light, so we can rule out anyone equal to or weaker than Vegeta at this time being able to go 15x slower than the speed of light, let alone breaking the speed of light.

It is really kind of weird how the same arguments just keep repeating themselves...

@nilok: I know that already

@apex_pretador: Sorry, in the massive quote wall, that wasn't a reply to you, it was a reply to Xdragon2002's reply to you.

@nilok: ok so to address your first point fair enough in the actual manga it didn’t seem like they were all that far fair enough

Well actually there is some proof that how fast your ki blasts are is indicative to how strong you are for example piccolo who just in early Z when he was like weaker than raditz shot at the very least a ki blast that was relativistic to light speed because t was able to reach the moon in literal seconds and he can perceive and react to those types of ki blasts fast forward to namek saga piccolo who’s and I’m not even exaggerating here thousands of times stronger and better in all stats to his early Z counterpart and even he couldn’t perceive or even react to frieza’s casual ki blasts and the reason was because it was simply too fast and again this is namek saga piccolo who’s thousands of times stronger than saiyan saga piccolo who can perceive and react to near light speed attacks and he couldn’t perceive or even comprehend frieza’s just casual ki blasts and he been described them as “A flash of light”

https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11124/111245244/5328011-2.jpg

And goku himself was able to just react and easily block like multiple of these ki blasts that were even faster than the ones piccolo couldn’t even perceive

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/e/e0/112-Q0W9z.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160329145158

To address some of the other points ok that’s travel speed there’s a fundamental difference between travel speed and fighting speed like how fast I can run isn’t indicative to how fast I can dodge or throw a punch and even through just that from some simple scaling by how much stronger goku got from the early android saga to the end of the buu saga he should still be faster than light

Oh and that reminds me buu should even be faster than light by many times since he was traveling through hundreds of planets in a few short years

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111275495/5101174-4696185-1334397181-37670.jpg

now hundreds of planets is many many solar systems like tens of solar systems and buu traveled through all of them in a few short years it takes light a few years just to get out of just our single solar system let alone like a dozen of them and potentially many more

One problem with the assumption that Majin Buu is faster than light, he had existed since the beginning of time and wasn't a problem until Bibidi discovered how to awaken him on command. Since it was only after Bibidi came in contact with Majin Buu did Buu become a threat to the universe, it would stand to reason that it was Bibidi that got Majin Buu from planet to planet.

@nilok: except it’s not really in just pure buu’s personality to just stay in a pod and wait and remember how much effort it took just to get out fat buu why would bibidi do that again and again and again for literally hundreds of times so majin buu could have just as easily flown there because for one he can fly and survive in space easily two the effort it took just to revive fat buu and bibidi would have to do that literally hundreds of times for each planet and three it’s extremely hard to picture kid pure just willingly go into a pod to be kooped up for possibly years on end don’t you see something wrong with that picture especially when we’re talking about kid buu so it’s more likely to think that he just flew there at his own and maybe bibidi just came with him or followed him

Buu most likely isn't conscious while inside the pod. When Buu is released, it had no reference to anything that happened while sealed. For Buu, it wouldn't be waiting, it would be like closing your eyes, and the next moment you open them, you are somewhere else. For something that is eternal, time is meaningless.

You say it is more likely that Buu would just fly from planet to planet under its own power instead of hibernating in its pod, yet, why was it that only 5 million years ago did the Supreme Kais realize that Buu is a threat to the universe when Bibidi starting summoning it, when the first Kais started showing up more than 100 million years prior. Did the Kais just not notice the universe constantly blowing up prior to Bibidi interfering? Or was it Bibidi's interfering the caused Buu to become a threat?

Buu was in cycles of destruction and hibernation, as in being sealed within the pod was normal for Buu since its creation, since the beginning of time.

Finally, you didn't address the issue that both Bibidi and Buu were on the Sacred World of the Kais, which exists in a wholly separate part of the universe that cannot be reached without teleporting or an Angel.

this thread is a trash, it is mixing a past tense and current time to prove that current characters are slower

i can say the exact sme thing i a different way.... "through reapeted battle and training goku surpassed the speed of sound". dose that say anything about gokus current speed? no. that is what went down also the name of dyspos speed is a misstranslation, it was called "super speed".. also them saying ftl dosen't mean anything since ftl can be 1,2-10000000000000000000000times ftl. mtfl isn't i comics so there was nothing to say.

goku is faster than sound. dose that say any thing about goku being slower than light? no, it dosen't specify weather goku is ftl or just fts. since they never specified anything about dyspos speed then he is just like burter..we will just have to scale his speed from hit and goku whom both are trilions of times ftl at maximum, scaling them from kid goku and raditz dodging light speed attack.

Already been debunked weeks ago that it was a sub mistranslation. Japan dub never mentioned surpassing light.

I'll read through the thread in a minute, but if you assume SSB goku is lightspeed then current base goku is 0.6706 MPH.

Usain Bolt would be over 20x faster than base goku.

Just... just no.

@eternalsaiyan32: That works for me.

This thread is pure bait. Obviously the guy is a troll. So are we gonna forget Beerus traveling across galaxies to follow Whis within 1-2 mins.

@gokuandsuperman: he is on about DBZ Not DBS or the gods of destructions.

He still wrong though they were ftl since the very beginning of DB.

@trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsof: who was even stated to be LS or ftl in DBZ? if people are talking about Raditz dodging light, iirc that was just a mistranslation

This is wrong.

Based on that statement, it would mean DB characters aren't even faster than Sound which doesn't make any sense