@xcell777We again have no idea what Cass is like, so you again can't really say that Dick should be able to defeat someone like her. Like there's really nothing to judge her on besides this issue, where she plain beat Dick, and how she was Pre Flashpoint, where she was better than Dick anyways.
Two things:
1. As I said before unless Cass is an outright meta human in the New 52 with super speed there's no reason why Dick shouldn't be able to handle her (or at least stalemate her) when we've already seen him handle the likes of Batman and Midnighter without losing to either one of them. So, unless he was holding back himself there's really no reason why he got stomped the way he did.
2. Even in the Pre 52 (near the end of it at least) we already saw that Dick and Cass were evenly matched fighters based on them fighting to a draw in the very last battle they had against one another.
As I said before, I wouldn't have a problem if it was a close fight and Cass came out on top but that wasn't the case which bothers me only because of Dick's consistent combat record that has been impressive thus far.
Unless we're thinking of different fights, no, Dick has never stalemated Cassandra. I posted their "fight" from Outsiders above and as I already pointed out its not really a fight at all. Dick gets angry, attacks Cass, and she counters every single one of his moves, with the only somewhat aggressive move she makes being to disarm him. All that really shows is how much better than him she is.
Either you're very biased or me and you are indeed talking about very different battles.
I know this is a New 52 thread but I'm gonna go ahead and post the fight anyway from the Outsiders issue (I think you're talking about the fight from the Batgirl mini series):
As we can see Dick and Cass BOTH land an equal amount of attacks on one another with Cass pinning Dick against the wall and Dick responding with his hand around her throat once again showing they're evenly matched before Alfred steps in and stops them.
This was clearly an outright draw between the two which took place Post-RIP.
Out of Ravager, Deathstroke, and Ra's not a single one of them is at Lady Shiva's level, who Cassandra has soundly defeated.
1. Cass always has serious trouble dealing with Ravager due to her pre-cog powers and super human stats. Dick on the other hand 1 shotted Rose with a single strike when they fought.
2. Comparing Deathstroke and Shiva we see that Slade actually has defeated Batman twice whereas Shiva has never beaten Batman and only managed to fight evenly against him.
3. Ra's like Shiva has only ever stalemated Batman in fights having only ever beaten Batman once after being powered up by the lazarus pit.
but Ra's also isn't anywhere near Shiva's level, or even Slade's based off what i've seen. (In fact, I don't even think Ra's has anything saying he's one of the best martial artists in the DCU. He and Bruce have never even had a showdown like that to my knowledge, they always use swords).
If you're someone who can fight evenly against Batman for nearly 1 hour straight I'd say you rank far up among the best fighters in the world. Mind you, his more impressive showings do involve him using a sword which includes several of his other battles against Batman (mostly stalemates), easily defeating Bane in a sword battle (who normally gives Batman a good fight), and Wonder Woman in a sword battle.
Tim Drake also points out how good Ra's is in the Red Robin series mentioning how he's some capable of fighting Bruce to a standstill which is something very few fighters in the world can say they've done.
Dick changing his fighting style also isn't an indication that he'd defeat Lady Shiva. Unless he actually does or beats someone better than her than all it means is that you can make an argument that he'd do better. Has he actually done better against Shiva herself? No, who Cass again defeated, and this was also years ago for Cass as well. Just like every other member of the Bat Family she still trained and improved her technique(s), so Dick isn't going to have some huge boost where he improved and Cassandra stood still.
Considering the fact that he fought evenly against Deathstroke when his skill boost happened actually I'd say his odds of beating Shiva or someone on her level dramatically improved. As I said before, Shiva has only ever stalemated Batman whereas Slade has beaten him twice in combat and Dick pulled off an impressive hand to hand draw against Slade AFTER he skill boost. On top of that, we saw Dick stalemate Cass outright as I've already shown you so again I would say he would have a very good chance at beating Shiva after his Post-RIP upgrade.
How is it complete domination if there's a point where Dick surprises Cass and grabs her, when in every other instance he's unable to because she's dodging? That's a clear sign of Dick's skill. Not sure how it can be looked at as anything else. And as i've said previously, since we don't know what Cass's training level is here it makes no sense to say she shouldn't be capable of beating Dick. You literally know nothing about her to say that, and Dick doesn't hold the title of greatest martial artist in the DCU. If he did I could sort of understand saying that, but he doesn't. It's not a big deal because she beat him regardless lol
I never said I had a problem with Cass beating Dick but rather that she EASILY dominated him when I think it would've made more sense for the battle to have ended in a draw or at the very least to be shown as much more competitive then it was even if Cass did still end up winning.
Cass completely dominating Dick just doesn't make sense to me when you consider his combat record and how impressive he's been in the New 52 against other A-list fighters. So, that leads to believe 1 of 2 things:
a. Dick seriously underestimated her like I've mentioned so many times before.
b. Cass is a meta human of some kind since Dick couldn't land one solid attack on her. Although we've seen Dick land multiple attacks on someone like Midnighter who has super human level speed and can predict & read his opponents every move due to super enhanced brain. Unless Cass turns out to be a meta human more powerful than Midnighter (which I'm doubting that she is), I don't see why Dick wouldn't be able to hit Cass multiple times especially given his own body reading capability now.
Dick grabbing her throat would've been much more impressive had he actually pinned her down and stopped the fight with brute strength overpowering her but that didn't happen as we saw Cass quickly and easily counter this attack which is why this isn't an impressive showing for Grayson at all which you don't seem to understand.
No, its definitely a fact that Dick's reading ability isn't equal to what Cassandra had Pre-52 as he doesn't have anywhere near the feats with it that she does lol that's not an argument. She was capable of perfectly telling what people were thinking, predicting what they'd do before they did it, and capable of understanding how they actually felt. This was enough that she could even identify when people she'd seen before were disguised (Which is how she figured out Batman's ID) Dick doesn't have anything matching all of that Post Flashpoint.
I'm not sure what your point is here since I never said Dick has a body reading ability on her level just that he now has a similar to ability to Cass' on top of having proven to be very skilled to the point where he's proven capable of matching A-list fighters even against one who can read and predict moves on an advanced level like Midnighter. So it would make more sense if that ended up fighting to a draw or at the very least the battle being close instead of one outright dominating the other.
I fail to see how Dick grabbing Midnighter and beating him has any bearing on him grabbing Cassandra.
You mean besides the fact that Midnigher is outright super human with an enhanced brain that predict his opponents every move on top of having memorized Dick's fighting style when they last fought? Midnighter in the New 52 alone has proven capable to fight against and even hurt top tiers like Martian Manhunter, Etrigan, and Apollo with his physical attacks plus read their body language even Martian Manhunter's despite being an alien to even J'onn's amazement at his ability especially since he's shape-shifter and easily able to fool anyone else except Midnighter.
As I KEEP telling you unless Cass is more physically powerful than some like Midnighter I don't see why Dick wouldn't be able to land multiple attacks on her.
On the flip side of this, I don't see how Dick grabbing Cass is impressive at all when he quickly got countered and the attack did no damage whatsoever. Sorry... it doesn't make sense at all to say its impressive.
Bottom Line: If Dick Grayson wasn't holding back here (And right now there's nothing within the text to imply he was) then Cassandra Cain is simply better and more skilled than him, because she just handed him his butt. So that being said, Dick would then be fighting someone that's better than him, yet he managed to surprise said person at one point and grabbed her (Again when she clearly did not want him to based off her own facial expression, her actions right after, and her actions during the rest of the fight) This is a person that's then, based off the fact she's better than Dick Grayson alone, one of the best hand to hand combatants in the DCU. For anyone to grab her at all when she doesn't want them to, in the midst of a fight, is a feat, because it's a sign of that person's own skill level.
Actually there is since he refers to her as a kid (based off her appearance) which would make sense of Dick holding back against her since he made it known earlier in the issue when he was attacked by kids that he didn't want to hurt them and even ran away after they shot at him instead of fighting.
Now it could turn out that you're correct and that he was giving it his all but that still wouldn't make sense to me given his track record against A-lister fighters so far in the New 52 thus my reason for having a problem with this fight. It's simply inconsistent with Dick's combat record.
Unless you think that anyone in the DCU could have grabbed Cassandra then like Dick did, i'm not sure how the opposite can be argued. Believe I pointed it out previously, compare it to someone fighting the Flash. Flash could run circles around that person, but if that person tags Flash at some point, even if they lose afterwards that's a credible feat, because Flash is physically superior but was tagged, and it indicates how the person would fare against people below Flash. Unless it's shown to be by pure luck then i'd say it counts. I apply the same logic to Dick's encounter with Cassandra.
Which goes back to what I KEEP telling you...
Unless Cass is now a meta human in the New 52 with super speed there's no way Dick shouldn't have been able to land multiple shots against her unless he himself was holding back given the fact that we've seen him land attacks against Batman, Midnighter, and easily handled an enhanced Joker not to long ago who even Batman had a hard time against in actual melee combat in comparison.
Now, does the feat hold a lot of weight at the moment? Not necessarily, because we still don't know just how skilled Cassandra is, her origin, etc. Which is why I also said that as Batman and Robin Eternal goes on it'll probably increase in meaning. All we know right now is that she's better than Nightwing, and by extension anyone below him.
You do realize that if Cass is simply that much better than Grayson then that would mean that she's also FAR above both Batman and Midnighter too right? Both of which Grayson has proven capable of fighting evenly against and that's my point it doesn't make sense for her to be THAT good naturally without being a meta human or enhanced especially in comparsion to Midnighter.
So if she does turn out to be a meta human with super speed for example that on the other hand would make more sense to me. Or if Dick simply underestimated her and was in fact holding back himself that would make even more sense.
Either way this battle was in no way shape or form impressive for Dick at all.
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