New 52 Dick Grayson Respect Thread

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#51 Posted by JayAaerow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher:

But I argue he didn't do much at all. This was practically a curb stomp in Cassandra's favor with Dick. A panel of grabbing in this sort of case didn't come across to me as a feat whatsoever. Sorry, the only feat this went to was Cassandra. And how do you not follow? He actually managed to get a hit in that example I pulled out from the Outsiders issue and wasn't a pushover in that case, whereas in this case he was already shot at and overestimated his opponent. Hence the butt kicking. She probably is the superior fighter too. Whatever the case may be, I didn't quite qualify to me as anything noteworthy on Dick's end other then the reading of her moves. Sorry.

I'm kinda angsty cause I have no clue how in any form this came out anything noteworthy for a feat on Dick's part. I felt was kinda obvious who actually won here and looked superior. (._. )

@redwingx said:

Don't compare this Dick to pre52. New52 lacks a lot of things that makes Dick into a better fighter for good reasons. He hasn't been with the Titans nor has he lead several other teams. He also doesn't have the same amount of training as a Robin. Pre52 is older and wiser.

Don't compare.

While that Titans history is up in the air and I do agree with this to various extents, the overall point of me pulling up the Pre-52 instance was to say how that is a feat whereas this isn't.

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#52 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow said:

@nathaniel_christopher:

But I argue he didn't do much at all. This was practically a curb stomp in Cassandra's favor with Dick. A panel of grabbing in this sort of case didn't come across to me as a feat whatsoever. Sorry, the only feat this went to was Cassandra. And how do you not follow? He actually managed to get a hit in that example I pulled out from the Outsiders issue and wasn't a pushover in that case, whereas in this case he was already shot at and overestimated his opponent. Hence the butt kicking. She probably is the superior fighter too. Whatever the case may be, I didn't quite qualify to me as anything noteworthy on Dick's end other then the reading of her moves. Sorry.

I'm kinda angsty cause I have no clue how in any form this came out anything noteworthy for a feat on Dick's part. I felt was kinda obvious who actually won here and looked superior. (._. )

Disagree. Fighting someone and losing doesn't stop a feat from happening. If Batman manages to grab Barry Allen when Barry is running circles around him that's a feat, even if Barry then uses super speed to disappear and proceeds to curbstomp Batman. Same thing applies here. Cassandra is clearly just as skilled, and arguably more skilled than Dick, just as she was Pre-Flashpoint. So him losing to her doesn't shock me for one for two reasons: one he was completely unprepared and somewhat cocky at the start, which led to a thrashing and two this is again around what would've happened Pre-Flashpoint, so its not a surprise to see Cassandra do it now. I'd only feel bad if it were someone like Spoiler or Blue Bird.

Regardless,

I felt was kinda obvious who actually won here and looked superior

This is fairly pointless as well. Obviously Cassandra is superior, but you're implying that someone being superior and winning means that the loser in a fight can't show any feat beacuse he/she isn't as good as the winner (???) That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. For Cassandra, who clearly still possesses the ability to read people, Dick managing to get around that and catch her off balance is a solid feat, even if he still lost at the end of the day. I'm sure her skills will go on to be expanded upon throughout the event and only make the instance of Dick grabbing her more notable, but if you're losing a fight to a person, especially if its badly, and you manage to gain any edge against this person who is superior to you that's notable in my opinion. This fight would've gone the same way had it been Jason, Tim, Steph, or Barb and had they ever used a tactic, movement, or a weapon to catch Cassandra by surprise it would've been a feat in their favor.

And again, comparing Pre Flashpoint to Post Flashpoint is fairly pointless in the way you're doing, because just because things didn't go the same way doesn't mean its still not a feat. One doesn't cancel out the other. (Pre Flashpoint Batman has tons of better feats than Post Flashpoint, but outside of asking which version would win in a fight it doesn't really matter, and you judge Post Flashpoint Batman on his own merits.) One might be a better feat, but both are still feats as its Dick doing something that the average person, the average fighter even, couldn't do against someone who is better than him. What's more, the instance of Dick one-shotting her counts for less than nothing as far as i'm concerned. People blow it out of proportion. Cassandra at her best has freaking LET Dick hit her before, right in the fave, more than once, and she straight up tanked the blows. The time Dick knocks her out, she'd just broken free of mind control/poisoning via Deathstroke and was acting out via pure rage to get to him, then Nightwing proceeds to literally hit her when she's down. Compare this to a fight they have later, and their encounters previously, that portray her skills when she's in the right frame of mind and Dick isn't able to lay a hand on her.

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#53 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow said:

@nathaniel_christopher:

But I argue he didn't do much at all. This was practically a curb stomp in Cassandra's favor with Dick. A panel of grabbing in this sort of case didn't come across to me as a feat whatsoever. Sorry, the only feat this went to was Cassandra. And how do you not follow? He actually managed to get a hit in that example I pulled out from the Outsiders issue and wasn't a pushover in that case, whereas in this case he was already shot at and overestimated his opponent. Hence the butt kicking. She probably is the superior fighter too. Whatever the case may be, I didn't quite qualify to me as anything noteworthy on Dick's end other then the reading of her moves. Sorry.

I'm kinda angsty cause I have no clue how in any form this came out anything noteworthy for a feat on Dick's part. I felt was kinda obvious who actually won here and looked superior. (._. )

Disagree. Fighting someone and losing doesn't stop a feat from happening. If Batman manages to grab Barry Allen when Barry is running circles around him that's a feat, even if Barry then uses super speed to disappear and proceeds to curbstomp Batman. Same thing applies here. Cassandra is clearly just as skilled, and arguably more skilled than Dick, just as she was Pre-Flashpoint. So him losing to her doesn't shock me for one for two reasons: one he was completely unprepared and somewhat cocky at the start, which led to a thrashing and two this is again around what would've happened Pre-Flashpoint, so its not a surprise to see Cassandra do it now. I'd only feel bad if it were someone like Spoiler or Blue Bird.

Regardless,

I felt was kinda obvious who actually won here and looked superior

This is fairly pointless as well. Obviously Cassandra is superior, but you're implying that someone being superior and winning means that the loser in a fight can't show any feat beacuse he/she isn't as good as the winner (???) That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. For Cassandra, who clearly still possesses the ability to read people, Dick managing to get around that and catch her off balance is a solid feat, even if he still lost at the end of the day. I'm sure her skills will go on to be expanded upon throughout the event and only make the instance of Dick grabbing her more notable, but if you're losing a fight to a person, especially if its badly, and you manage to gain any edge against this person who is superior to you that's notable in my opinion. This fight would've gone the same way had it been Jason, Tim, Steph, or Barb and had they ever used a tactic, movement, or a weapon to catch Cassandra by surprise it would've been a feat in their favor.

And again, comparing Pre Flashpoint to Post Flashpoint is fairly pointless in the way you're doing, because just because things didn't go the same way doesn't mean its still not a feat. One doesn't cancel out the other. (Pre Flashpoint Batman has tons of better feats than Post Flashpoint, but outside of asking which version would win in a fight it doesn't really matter, and you judge Post Flashpoint Batman on his own merits.) One might be a better feat, but both are still feats as its Dick doing something that the average person, the average fighter even, couldn't do against someone who is better than him. What's more, the instance of Dick one-shotting her counts for less than nothing as far as i'm concerned. People blow it out of proportion. Cassandra at her best has freaking LET Dick hit her before, right in the fave, more than once, and she straight up tanked the blows. The time Dick knocks her out, she'd just broken free of mind control/poisoning via Deathstroke and was acting out via pure rage to get to him, then Nightwing proceeds to literally hit her when she's down. Compare this to a fight they have later, and their encounters previously, that portray her skills when she's in the right frame of mind and Dick isn't able to lay a hand on her.

Personally the only way i'll end up having any issue is if someone else in the Bat Family defeats Cassandra without some kind of amp.

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#54 Edited by xcell777 (59 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm... I'm not sure how anyone could look at this last fight between Cass and Dick then conclude it as a good showing for Grayson considering the fact that Cass completely dominated him here which I thought was odd considering the fact that Dick stalemated Batman and has two very good showings against even Midnighter proving how good of a fighter he is.

If anything given Dick's own body reading ability that he now has in the New 52 this should've be a stalemate as well or at the very least a close battle even if Cass did still come out on top. Of course, it could turn out that Dick was holding back himself since Cass seems to be around the same age as Tim (thus the reason he calls her kid) and underestimated her talents (notice how he wonders about how she's moving so fast) if they do end up fighting again. However, this last fight was no impressive feat for Grayson.

On the other hand, the last fight they had in the Pre52 universe in the Outsiders issue (that was already brought up) they actually came off as evenly matched having matched one another blow for blow before the battle was broken up by Alfred.

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#55 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@xcell777 said:

Hmm... I'm not sure how anyone could look at this last fight between Cass and Dick then conclude it as a good showing for Grayson considering the fact that Cass completely dominated him here which I thought was odd considering the fact that Dick stalemated Batman and has two very good showings against even Midnighter proving how good of a fighter he is.

If anything given Dick's own body reading ability that he now has in the New 52 this should've be a stalemate as well or at the very least a close battle even if Cass did still come out on top. Of course, it could turn out that Dick was holding back himself since Cass seems to be around the same age as Tim (thus the reason he calls her kid) and underestimated her talents (notice how he wonders about how she's moving so fast) if they do end up fighting again. However, this last fight was no impressive feat for Grayson.

On the other hand, the last fight they had in the Pre52 universe in the Outsiders issue (that was already brought up) they actually came off as evenly matched having matched one another blow for blow before the battle was broken up by Alfred.

Just based off of Dick's fight with Bruce and his showings in the New 52, I think it's fairly clear that his ability to read people Post-Flashpoint isn't anywhere near what Cassandra had previously. (There's a reason Batman outright said that no one was the fighter that she was) So we'll find out more going forward, but if she still has it to that level then naah, there's no reason for him to be beating her. Same with Tim and Jason.

EDIT: Also, y'all REALLY need to re-read the "fight" in Outsiders. Dick doesn't manage to do a single thing to Cassandra, yet is the one who initiates the fight because of her recent brainwashing by Slade.

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If we wanna talk about credible feats I fail to see how him trying and failing to hit somebody, who then doesn't attempt to fight him back (Though as seen above she does disarm him in one move), counts for anything. All this fight did was show that Cassandra doesn't need to use a great amount of effort to deal with Dick (Which really isn't a surprise based off of her feats and verbal praise she's received from others) He wasn't equal to her then and his Post Flashpoint version isn't equal to that version of her either.

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#56 Edited by xcell777 (59 posts) - - Show Bio
@nathaniel_christopher said:
@xcell777 said:

Hmm... I'm not sure how anyone could look at this last fight between Cass and Dick then conclude it as a good showing for Grayson considering the fact that Cass completely dominated him here which I thought was odd considering the fact that Dick stalemated Batman and has two very good showings against even Midnighter proving how good of a fighter he is.

If anything given Dick's own body reading ability that he now has in the New 52 this should've be a stalemate as well or at the very least a close battle even if Cass did still come out on top. Of course, it could turn out that Dick was holding back himself since Cass seems to be around the same age as Tim (thus the reason he calls her kid) and underestimated her talents (notice how he wonders about how she's moving so fast) if they do end up fighting again. However, this last fight was no impressive feat for Grayson.

On the other hand, the last fight they had in the Pre52 universe in the Outsiders issue (that was already brought up) they actually came off as evenly matched having matched one another blow for blow before the battle was broken up by Alfred.

Based off of what? This was Cassandra's first appearance and all we know about her (For a fact) is what we've just seen. Saying that Dick should do this or that well against her therefore doesn't really make any sense until we learn more about her.

I'm gonna say based off what we've seen in his Grayson series.

Unless Cass is more powerful than Midnighter who is a legit super human level fighter in addition to having a super human brain that can predict your every move there's really nothing new that Cass should have that Dick hasn't already proven he can handle. Of course, you could be correct and it could turn out that she's now a meta human with super speed or something far off like that which would make sense as to why she's "so fast" now but I doubt it.

My whole point is this though: if Dick can come up with a clever tactic on the fly to counter Midnighter's super battle brain who's memorized his every move as Nightwing it really shouldn't be hard for him to do the same against someone like Cass.

Pre-Flashpoint, beyond her body reading ability which she displays once again here, she was also trained from birth to be the ultimate fighter, which led to her not only accomplishing things that Dick couldn't, but being capable of beating someone like Lady Shiva, a person Dick wasn't a match for and whom even Bruce never beat in a straight up fight. At best you have the encounter their encounter wherein Dick was the one attacking Cassandra due to her change in loyalties and Cassandra made no move to attack him in turn, yet she countered, blocked, and dodged every single one of his attacks before the fight was broken up. Previously she was just better than him and as far as Dick goes he hasn't really done anything now to imply that he's better than he was before the reboot, whereas Cassandra is a relative unknown that could be just as good if not better than she was previously. Heck, we could have another character show up in the next issue and dominate Jason and Tim together, but until we learned that character's history it wouldn't make any sense to say how well the two should perform against him.

Pre-52, you are aware that Dick actually stalemated Cass herself (the last battle they had), easily defeated Ravager (someone who Cass normally has a hard time with due to her pre-cog abilities), defeated Ra's Al Ghul (who has numerous stalemates against Batman), and stalemated Deathstroke unarmed right?

The Dick who Shiva easily defeated under Dixon's run during the Brotherhood of the Fist story line is NOT the same fighter that he was in the Post-RIP/Final Crisis era which was years later down the road. He had vastly improved and changed his fighting style which was acknowledged by Slade Wilson.

But you all need to not look at it as an all or nothing thing. The fight as a whole isn't a good feat for Dick, its one for Cassandra. There's simply a single moment that's notable for Dick. (I'd argue two just in terms of the fact that during a fight he was able to recognize and judge Cassandra's fighting style and note that she wasn't attempting to kill him, so that's an observation feat/knowledge)

Yes the reading of her body language/fighting style is the only note worthy "feat" here not Dick grabbing Cass by the throat only to have her quickly counter him by throwing him into the air and getting on top of him which is what I'm trying to point out (as well as the other poster talking to you before me). That's NOT a feat that's complete domination which is what this fight was for Cass which doesn't make sense given Dick's combat record thus far in the New 52.

However, as I said it could turn out that Dick himself was holding back seeing as though she appears to be a kid and wasn't expecting her to be so good. Even Batman has made that mistake when he first truly fought Shiva and they turned out to be evenly matched in skill.

It could also turn out as you said that Cass has new abilities that we're unaware of which allows her to far outclass A-list fighters like Grayson but again I doubt it.

Just based off of Dick's fight with Bruce and his showings in the New 52, I think it's fairly clear that his ability to read people Post-Flashpoint isn't anywhere near what Cassandra had previously. (There's a reason Batman outright said that no one was the fighter that she was)

That may very well be true which goes back to what I just said above that Dick was unaware of her talents and completely underestimated her which is why could explain his performance against Cass here (possibly). However, it doesn't change the fact that its no feat for Grayson to have grabbed Cass when he's done the same to Midnighter who he actually dominated at one point in there battle using just his skill and battle savvy.

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#57 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@xcell777 We again have no idea what Cass is like, so you again can't really say that Dick should be able to defeat someone like her. Like there's really nothing to judge her on besides this issue, where she plain beat Dick, and how she was Pre Flashpoint, where she was better than Dick anyways.

Unless we're thinking of different fights, no, Dick has never stalemated Cassandra. I posted their "fight" from Outsiders above and as I already pointed out its not really a fight at all. Dick gets angry, attacks Cass, and she counters every single one of his moves, with the only somewhat aggressive move she makes being to disarm him. All that really shows is how much better than him she is. Out of Ravager, Deathstroke, and Ra's not a single one of them is at Lady Shiva's level, who Cassandra has soundly defeated. Furthermore, Cassandra has beaten Ravager, fought evenly with Deathstroke just like Dick has, and has never encountered Ra's, but Ra's also isn't anywhere near Shiva's level, or even Slade's based off what i've seen. (In fact, I don't even think Ra's has anything saying he's one of the best martial artists in the DCU. He and Bruce have never even had a showdown like that to my knowledge, they always use swords). Dick changing his fighting style also isn't an indication that he'd defeat Lady Shiva. Unless he actually does or beats someone better than her than all it means is that you can make an argument that he'd do better. Has he actually done better against Shiva herself? No, who Cass again defeated, and this was also years ago for Cass as well. Just like every other member of the Bat Family she still trained and improved her technique(s), so Dick isn't going to have some huge boost where he improved and Cassandra stood still.

How is it complete domination if there's a point where Dick surprises Cass and grabs her, when in every other instance he's unable to because she's dodging? That's a clear sign of Dick's skill. Not sure how it can be looked at as anything else. And as i've said previously, since we don't know what Cass's training level is here it makes no sense to say she shouldn't be capable of beating Dick. You literally know nothing about her to say that, and Dick doesn't hold the title of greatest martial artist in the DCU. If he did I could sort of understand saying that, but he doesn't. It's not a big deal because she beat him regardless lol

No, its definitely a fact that Dick's reading ability isn't equal to what Cassandra had Pre-52 as he doesn't have anywhere near the feats with it that she does lol that's not an argument. She was capable of perfectly telling what people were thinking, predicting what they'd do before they did it, and capable of understanding how they actually felt. This was enough that she could even identify when people she'd seen before were disguised (Which is how she figured out Batman's ID) Dick doesn't have anything matching all of that Post Flashpoint.

I fail to see how Dick grabbing Midnighter and beating him has any bearing on him grabbing Cassandra. Bottom Line: If Dick Grayson wasn't holding back here (And right now there's nothing within the text to imply he was) then Cassandra Cain is simply better and more skilled than him, because she just handed him his butt. So that being said, Dick would then be fighting someone that's better than him, yet he managed to surprise said person at one point and grabbed her (Again when she clearly did not want him to based off her own facial expression, her actions right after, and her actions during the rest of the fight) This is a person that's then, based off the fact she's better than Dick Grayson alone, one of the best hand to hand combatants in the DCU. For anyone to grab her at all when she doesn't want them to, in the midst of a fight, is a feat, because it's a sign of that person's own skill level. Unless you think that anyone in the DCU could have grabbed Cassandra then like Dick did, i'm not sure how the opposite can be argued. Believe I pointed it out previously, compare it to someone fighting the Flash. Flash could run circles around that person, but if that person tags Flash at some point, even if they lose afterwards that's a credible feat, because Flash is physically superior but was tagged, and it indicates how the person would fare against people below Flash. Unless it's shown to be by pure luck then i'd say it counts. I apply the same logic to Dick's encounter with Cassandra.

Now, does the feat hold a lot of weight at the moment? Not necessarily, because we still don't know just how skilled Cassandra is, her origin, etc. Which is why I also said that as Batman and Robin Eternal goes on it'll probably increase in meaning. All we know right now is that she's better than Nightwing, and by extension anyone below him.

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#58 Edited by xcell777 (59 posts) - - Show Bio
@nathaniel_christopher said:

@xcell777We again have no idea what Cass is like, so you again can't really say that Dick should be able to defeat someone like her. Like there's really nothing to judge her on besides this issue, where she plain beat Dick, and how she was Pre Flashpoint, where she was better than Dick anyways.

Two things:

1. As I said before unless Cass is an outright meta human in the New 52 with super speed there's no reason why Dick shouldn't be able to handle her (or at least stalemate her) when we've already seen him handle the likes of Batman and Midnighter without losing to either one of them. So, unless he was holding back himself there's really no reason why he got stomped the way he did.

2. Even in the Pre 52 (near the end of it at least) we already saw that Dick and Cass were evenly matched fighters based on them fighting to a draw in the very last battle they had against one another.

As I said before, I wouldn't have a problem if it was a close fight and Cass came out on top but that wasn't the case which bothers me only because of Dick's consistent combat record that has been impressive thus far.

Unless we're thinking of different fights, no, Dick has never stalemated Cassandra. I posted their "fight" from Outsiders above and as I already pointed out its not really a fight at all. Dick gets angry, attacks Cass, and she counters every single one of his moves, with the only somewhat aggressive move she makes being to disarm him. All that really shows is how much better than him she is.

Either you're very biased or me and you are indeed talking about very different battles.

I know this is a New 52 thread but I'm gonna go ahead and post the fight anyway from the Outsiders issue (I think you're talking about the fight from the Batgirl mini series):

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As we can see Dick and Cass BOTH land an equal amount of attacks on one another with Cass pinning Dick against the wall and Dick responding with his hand around her throat once again showing they're evenly matched before Alfred steps in and stops them.

This was clearly an outright draw between the two which took place Post-RIP.

Out of Ravager, Deathstroke, and Ra's not a single one of them is at Lady Shiva's level, who Cassandra has soundly defeated.

1. Cass always has serious trouble dealing with Ravager due to her pre-cog powers and super human stats. Dick on the other hand 1 shotted Rose with a single strike when they fought.

2. Comparing Deathstroke and Shiva we see that Slade actually has defeated Batman twice whereas Shiva has never beaten Batman and only managed to fight evenly against him.

3. Ra's like Shiva has only ever stalemated Batman in fights having only ever beaten Batman once after being powered up by the lazarus pit.

but Ra's also isn't anywhere near Shiva's level, or even Slade's based off what i've seen. (In fact, I don't even think Ra's has anything saying he's one of the best martial artists in the DCU. He and Bruce have never even had a showdown like that to my knowledge, they always use swords).

If you're someone who can fight evenly against Batman for nearly 1 hour straight I'd say you rank far up among the best fighters in the world. Mind you, his more impressive showings do involve him using a sword which includes several of his other battles against Batman (mostly stalemates), easily defeating Bane in a sword battle (who normally gives Batman a good fight), and Wonder Woman in a sword battle.

Tim Drake also points out how good Ra's is in the Red Robin series mentioning how he's some capable of fighting Bruce to a standstill which is something very few fighters in the world can say they've done.

Dick changing his fighting style also isn't an indication that he'd defeat Lady Shiva. Unless he actually does or beats someone better than her than all it means is that you can make an argument that he'd do better. Has he actually done better against Shiva herself? No, who Cass again defeated, and this was also years ago for Cass as well. Just like every other member of the Bat Family she still trained and improved her technique(s), so Dick isn't going to have some huge boost where he improved and Cassandra stood still.

Considering the fact that he fought evenly against Deathstroke when his skill boost happened actually I'd say his odds of beating Shiva or someone on her level dramatically improved. As I said before, Shiva has only ever stalemated Batman whereas Slade has beaten him twice in combat and Dick pulled off an impressive hand to hand draw against Slade AFTER he skill boost. On top of that, we saw Dick stalemate Cass outright as I've already shown you so again I would say he would have a very good chance at beating Shiva after his Post-RIP upgrade.

How is it complete domination if there's a point where Dick surprises Cass and grabs her, when in every other instance he's unable to because she's dodging? That's a clear sign of Dick's skill. Not sure how it can be looked at as anything else. And as i've said previously, since we don't know what Cass's training level is here it makes no sense to say she shouldn't be capable of beating Dick. You literally know nothing about her to say that, and Dick doesn't hold the title of greatest martial artist in the DCU. If he did I could sort of understand saying that, but he doesn't. It's not a big deal because she beat him regardless lol

I never said I had a problem with Cass beating Dick but rather that she EASILY dominated him when I think it would've made more sense for the battle to have ended in a draw or at the very least to be shown as much more competitive then it was even if Cass did still end up winning.

Cass completely dominating Dick just doesn't make sense to me when you consider his combat record and how impressive he's been in the New 52 against other A-list fighters. So, that leads to believe 1 of 2 things:

a. Dick seriously underestimated her like I've mentioned so many times before.

b. Cass is a meta human of some kind since Dick couldn't land one solid attack on her. Although we've seen Dick land multiple attacks on someone like Midnighter who has super human level speed and can predict & read his opponents every move due to super enhanced brain. Unless Cass turns out to be a meta human more powerful than Midnighter (which I'm doubting that she is), I don't see why Dick wouldn't be able to hit Cass multiple times especially given his own body reading capability now.

Dick grabbing her throat would've been much more impressive had he actually pinned her down and stopped the fight with brute strength overpowering her but that didn't happen as we saw Cass quickly and easily counter this attack which is why this isn't an impressive showing for Grayson at all which you don't seem to understand.

No, its definitely a fact that Dick's reading ability isn't equal to what Cassandra had Pre-52 as he doesn't have anywhere near the feats with it that she does lol that's not an argument. She was capable of perfectly telling what people were thinking, predicting what they'd do before they did it, and capable of understanding how they actually felt. This was enough that she could even identify when people she'd seen before were disguised (Which is how she figured out Batman's ID) Dick doesn't have anything matching all of that Post Flashpoint.

I'm not sure what your point is here since I never said Dick has a body reading ability on her level just that he now has a similar to ability to Cass' on top of having proven to be very skilled to the point where he's proven capable of matching A-list fighters even against one who can read and predict moves on an advanced level like Midnighter. So it would make more sense if that ended up fighting to a draw or at the very least the battle being close instead of one outright dominating the other.

I fail to see how Dick grabbing Midnighter and beating him has any bearing on him grabbing Cassandra.

You mean besides the fact that Midnigher is outright super human with an enhanced brain that predict his opponents every move on top of having memorized Dick's fighting style when they last fought? Midnighter in the New 52 alone has proven capable to fight against and even hurt top tiers like Martian Manhunter, Etrigan, and Apollo with his physical attacks plus read their body language even Martian Manhunter's despite being an alien to even J'onn's amazement at his ability especially since he's shape-shifter and easily able to fool anyone else except Midnighter.

As I KEEP telling you unless Cass is more physically powerful than some like Midnighter I don't see why Dick wouldn't be able to land multiple attacks on her.

On the flip side of this, I don't see how Dick grabbing Cass is impressive at all when he quickly got countered and the attack did no damage whatsoever. Sorry... it doesn't make sense at all to say its impressive.

Bottom Line: If Dick Grayson wasn't holding back here (And right now there's nothing within the text to imply he was) then Cassandra Cain is simply better and more skilled than him, because she just handed him his butt. So that being said, Dick would then be fighting someone that's better than him, yet he managed to surprise said person at one point and grabbed her (Again when she clearly did not want him to based off her own facial expression, her actions right after, and her actions during the rest of the fight) This is a person that's then, based off the fact she's better than Dick Grayson alone, one of the best hand to hand combatants in the DCU. For anyone to grab her at all when she doesn't want them to, in the midst of a fight, is a feat, because it's a sign of that person's own skill level.

Actually there is since he refers to her as a kid (based off her appearance) which would make sense of Dick holding back against her since he made it known earlier in the issue when he was attacked by kids that he didn't want to hurt them and even ran away after they shot at him instead of fighting.

Now it could turn out that you're correct and that he was giving it his all but that still wouldn't make sense to me given his track record against A-lister fighters so far in the New 52 thus my reason for having a problem with this fight. It's simply inconsistent with Dick's combat record.

Unless you think that anyone in the DCU could have grabbed Cassandra then like Dick did, i'm not sure how the opposite can be argued. Believe I pointed it out previously, compare it to someone fighting the Flash. Flash could run circles around that person, but if that person tags Flash at some point, even if they lose afterwards that's a credible feat, because Flash is physically superior but was tagged, and it indicates how the person would fare against people below Flash. Unless it's shown to be by pure luck then i'd say it counts. I apply the same logic to Dick's encounter with Cassandra.

Which goes back to what I KEEP telling you...

Unless Cass is now a meta human in the New 52 with super speed there's no way Dick shouldn't have been able to land multiple shots against her unless he himself was holding back given the fact that we've seen him land attacks against Batman, Midnighter, and easily handled an enhanced Joker not to long ago who even Batman had a hard time against in actual melee combat in comparison.

Now, does the feat hold a lot of weight at the moment? Not necessarily, because we still don't know just how skilled Cassandra is, her origin, etc. Which is why I also said that as Batman and Robin Eternal goes on it'll probably increase in meaning. All we know right now is that she's better than Nightwing, and by extension anyone below him.

You do realize that if Cass is simply that much better than Grayson then that would mean that she's also FAR above both Batman and Midnighter too right? Both of which Grayson has proven capable of fighting evenly against and that's my point it doesn't make sense for her to be THAT good naturally without being a meta human or enhanced especially in comparsion to Midnighter.

So if she does turn out to be a meta human with super speed for example that on the other hand would make more sense to me. Or if Dick simply underestimated her and was in fact holding back himself that would make even more sense.

Either way this battle was in no way shape or form impressive for Dick at all.

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#59 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@xcell777 One, as I already said we don't know who or what Cass is so there's no way to say what she should or shouldn't be able to do. Two, that's flawed logic, as Post Flashpoint Dick has fought numerous people besides metahumans and been hit by most of them. Heck, his fight wtih Bruce left him a bloody mess. Granted, Bruce was also in similar condition, but going by your logic Dick should've come out on top

I see the Batgirl vs Nightwing fight in Outsiders, however going by number of hits no that's not even, as Batgirl scores 3 to Nightwing's 2 and has Dick pinned against the wall by the end of it. But yes, we were talking about different fights. As I said though, going by hits and the point the fight was at when the car arrived, Cassandra did better than Dick.

Batgirl and Rose fought twice. The first time Batgirl outright won, the second time the fight was broken up and was also during the Titan's incident where Cassandra was drugged by Slade.

Batman's outright stated that Shiva is a superior fighter to him, just like he's said the same about Cassandra Cain. Hence him never once beating either. Out of two straight up fights between Bruce and Slade, Slade won the first (Wasn't a stomp though, and he admitted that minus his enhancements Batman would have won, and that even with them it'd take him days to heal) their second fight ended with Bruce on top and bashing Slade in the head with his own rifle. As I said, Ra's has no real hand to hand combat feats and has never been touted (To my knowledge) by Bruce, Shiva, Connor, Dick, or anyone of note as being a good hand to hand combatant. And i'm sorry, Ra's has only ever stalemated Bruce? LOL no, Ra's loses on a consistent basis, more than either of the other two. I'd highly suggest you read Batman Tales of the Demon, Batman Birth of the Demon, and Batman Hush. The first features the very first time they fight, the now classic scene in the middle of the desert. Batman is bitten by a scorpion and proceeds to fall, Ra's declares that fate has named him the victor and returns to his tent, after which Batman gets back up astonishing Ra's (Are you man or fiend from hell?!" and Batman proceeds to knock Ra's lights out, signaling a win for Batman. Neither fights in Son of the Demon, but Bride of the Demon again ends with Bruce knocking Ra's out and leaving him on his exploding base. Birth of the Demon is the only real stalemate they have, where they both fall into the Lazarus Pit as the conclusion of the fight. Batman Hush features a fight between Bruce and Ra's, which ends with Bruce stabbing Ra's in the gut with a sword. Out of 4 fights thats literally only one stalemate, which is because they both fall into the Pit. Ra's honestly shouldn't even be mentioned alongside Shiva and Deathstroke. I'm not arguing that he's not good at martial arts, as he's lived for centuries, but in terms of actually using it he barely ever does, not giving him anywhere near the feats of the others. Even Batman he's plain just never beaten, and they usually fight with swords, which doesn't say much for his hand to hand skill. In Comparison, Bruce has stated that Shiva and Cassandra are better than him, and been beaten by Deathstroke solidly. Ra's has nothing to compare.

As i've said above, Dick didn't stalemate Cassandra, as by the time the brief fight was broken up she had scored more hits and had Dick pinned against the wall. She therefore clearly has the better position, and their earlier encounters are also all in her favor. Nightwing was always able to fight well against Deathstroke, and he was then only able to fight even better against him. However, he never actually won, as Batman has (And that was years ago for Bruce, before R.I.P. as well) So that doesn't change anything. You have Nightwing improving, but not actually winning, therefore I see no reason to state that he'd somehow then be able to beat Shiva when he couldn't in the past, if he still can't beat Slade.

Already gone into why it's flawed thinking to say that Dick should do this or that well against any person who just shows up. You've literally admitted that Cassandra could have any type of enhancement or training that we simply don't know at the moment. You're therefore basing Dick Grayson against known elements in his past and letting it influence how he should fair against the unknown. That makes no sense, plain and simple. And no, Cassandra recovering from Dick surprising her is then a point in her favor, as it shows that even when she's surprised she can instantly recover and not let her opponent take advantage of it. So yes, it's still a solid feat in Dick's favor as that's by all accounts a significant accomplishment for him fighting against a superior opponent.

No major point, i just wanted it to be clear that his ability isn't equal to what Cass had. Therefore, if Cass has the same ability level she had previously, then hers would be superior to Dick's, it'd then make no sense for Dick to achieve a draw if he was facing someone with a superior ability. (Just like it wouldn't make sense for an arm wrestling contest to end in a draw between Superman and Superboy when Superman's physical strength level is higher than Superboy's)

Honestly, your logic just makes no sense here. You're already writing Cass off as not being able to do this or that when you literally know squat about her lol and are basically setting yourself up for a fall. Dick's track record was far more impressive Pre Flashpoint than it is now, and Cassandra was plain better than him. Hell, she was better than him right after she first appeared. Why? Because she'd been training her entire life, from birth up until the present. Unless you're going to say that that makes no sense as to why she'd be better than him than I have no idea how you explain her being better than him previously and now. What's more, as I also stated previously, your rating of Dick Grayson seems to be through the roof. By your logic, he should plain be the best hand to hand fighter in the DCU because of how he fared against Midnighter. Note, not only is this clearly not the case, but Midnighter himself isn't the top level fighter. He's an enhanced fighter who Dick is better than. Doesn't really say much in the grand scheme.

Dick referred to her as a kid, and then got his butt handed to him. Now, you could argue that he might have held back at first, but after she started whooping him? No, that'd make no sense. Either he's not holding back and Cassandra is just better than him, or he's holding back while a clearly skilled figher is whooping him and he's an idiot. What's more, Cassandra's ability would likely have let her know if he was holding back in any such way, so if so it should be commented on down the line. If not, it's just speculation.

You keep going back to this UNLESS SHE IS ENHANCED part and i'm confused as to why. We again literally do not know whether she is or isn't, so stressing over that makes little sense. What we do know regardless is that she just beat Dick, that's a fact that can't be argued. So once more, she's better than him just based off of this one showing, and this will be expanded upon down the line. Therefore, Dick grabbing someone superior to him in a fight is a credible feat, just like him managing to do well against Deathstroke previously, even though he never won, was a credible feat, because any area or point in time where you manage to do well against or get the jump on a person who's better than you is a credible feat.

This is a comic book lol saying it doesn't make sense for someone to be this or that good naturally, where people are born with special abilities every day, makes zero sense. She could have been born and right out of the womb been a genius at hand to hand combat. Would that be the best origin? Naah, but that wouldn't suddenly break the barriers of reality that's been established.

You do realize that if Cass is simply that much better than Grayson then that would mean that she's also FAR above both Batman and Midnighter too right?

And? LOL I see zero problem with Cassandra being better than either of those men, besides you not thinking its right for her to be. Regardless, based off current showings, she's above Dick, because she just beat him. Now, let the next issue come around and Dick reveals he was holding back, or something along those lines and the story becomes completely different. Until then, Cassandra>>Dick

Is the fight as a whole credible? Nope, and i've never claimed it was, but that one moment is. And we can all agree to disagree or not, because i'm still going to use the feat going forward as I said previously.

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#60 Posted by flying_fish (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher:

He's beaten Deathstroke pretty handily.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

He throws him around the room, knocks him onto the floor long enough to steal his gun, use the gun to free Man-Bat, and still has time to kick him down while distracted. That's a straight-up beatdown.

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#61 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@flying_fish said:

@nathaniel_christopher:

He's beaten Deathstroke pretty handily.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

He throws him around the room, knocks him onto the floor long enough to steal his gun, use the gun to free Man-Bat, and still has time to kick him down while distracted. That's a straight-up beatdown.

Not really a win. For one, Slade's not down by the end of the fight, Dick runs away, because he achieved his goal which was to free Man-Bat from Deathstroke which he did by using Slade's gun to shoot the lock that kept Man-Bat caged. Dick then opens the encounter by saying and I quote "Deathstroke's a Meta Human. He can kill me without breaking a sweat." And the beginning of the encounter shows just that for the most part, as it's in Slade's favor as he has Dick on the ground after a blow to the gut and the back of the neck. Dick proceeds to counter with the above panels, catching Deathstroke by surprise, which leads to him freeing Kirk and running away as I previously noted all in one motion. So it's most definitely a solid showing of Dick's skills, but not a win, especially win he himself admits during it that Slade could kill him and ends the fight by running away, not knocking Slade out or capturing him for the authorities, just plain leaving before the fight continues to drag on.

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#62 Posted by flying_fish (33 posts) - - Show Bio

The only reason he didn't continue the fight was because he had other priorities. He had Slade knocked out of commission long enough to take his gun, free Man-Bat, and then react to Slade sneaking up behind him. During that time, he could have easily just used the gun on Slade, or beat him over the head a few more times. Slade got a single hit in, and couldn't touch Dick after that. This fight was as one-sided as the Dick and Cass fight.

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#63 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@flying_fish said:

The only reason he didn't continue the fight was because he had other priorities. He had Slade knocked out of commission long enough to take his gun, free Man-Bat, and then react to Slade sneaking up behind him. During that time, he could have easily just used the gun on Slade, or beat him over the head a few more times. Slade got a single hit in, and couldn't touch Dick after that. This fight was as one-sided as the Dick and Cass fight.

No Caption Provided

That's two hits, during which Dick's on the ground and Slade is standing over him. You say that Dick could've continued attacking Slade, Slade could've simply shot Dick then and there. And no, Dick really didn't have any other priorities. Him leaving the yacht the group is on and jumping into the ocean is literally the end of the story. He doesn't even go after Man-Bat, because Man-Bat is already too far away. He was simply running away from Slade so as not to continue the fight, one in which he already admitted, as i've posted above showing, that Slade could kill him fairly easily.

I'd also say check Dick's wording again in the panels above you posted. He outright admits with the gun trick that he only has a second, plus luck, to make the manuever work. And as you've posted already, Slade instantly recovers right after. That's not really ample time for Dick to do anything else to him. Fight's not really one-sided at all if a person is outright admitting his opponent could kill him and then runs away with his opponent still chasing after him. Either way, that's most certainly not what you call a "win". Dick achieved his goal certainly, but he didn't beat Slade. He got some hits in which failed to put Slade down.

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#64 Posted by flying_fish (33 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick says that Slade could kill him, but Dick wasn't going to let that happen. The panels themselves show that Dick had time to take Slade's gun, shoot the chain, and still knock Slade back down even while Slade was trying to attack him from behind. He then continues to hit Slade while dodging his attacks. And if he wanted to, Dick could have just shot Slade instead. The only way Slade, a seasoned fighter, would have allowed his own weapon to be taken and used against him would be if he was severely incompetent, or if his opponent had a significant advantage over him.

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#65 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@flying_fish said:

Dick says that Slade could kill him, but Dick wasn't going to let that happen. The panels themselves show that Dick had time to take Slade's gun, shoot the chain, and still knock Slade back down even while Slade was trying to attack him from behind. He then continues to hit Slade while dodging his attacks. And if he wanted to, Dick could have just shot Slade instead. The only way Slade, a seasoned fighter, would have allowed his own weapon to be taken and used against him would be if he was severely incompetent, or if his opponent had a significant advantage over him.

Which doesn't change the fact that Dick is acknowledging then and there that Slade has the ability to kill him, and as I pointed out he's standing above Dick before Dick counters, and could have shot him right then. (Could also say that Slade could've just shot Dick from a distance, as he did previously when he knocked out both Dick and Man-Bat) In turn, for Dick to shoot Slade you'd have to assume that Slade wouldn't have moved, which doesn't make sense as in the very next panel not only has Dick moved, but Slade's moved with him, so Dick taking the gun didn't throw Slade off for long at all. What's more, how exactly does a gun being taken mean that Dick has a significant advantage over Slade? That makes little sense. People lose their weapons in fight's all the time and still end up winning the fight or losing the fight at random. Not saying that Dick taking the weapon isn't a point in his favor, but implying that him doing so is some major accomplishment over Slade makes little sense. On the flip side, implying that a weapon being taken makes Slade incompetent makes zero sense. Is Dick incompetent because his weapons were tossed away when he was fighting Cassandra? Obviously not. Dick doesn't "allow" Slade to kill him because he keeps the pressure on him for a few intense seconds, makes what he himself admits is a risky move that requires partial luck, and then makes a very quick exit, not bothering to continue the fight. During that time, where he even hits Slade numerous times, he never comes close to putting Slade down for the count. (And by the way, Slade's been shot in the head before and survived, so even assuming that Dick did use that method, that's not a guarantee of a win) All of which has to do with the fact that Slade is more resiliant than Dick and physically stronger than Dick. Dick didn't knock him out with those hits because he couldn't knock him out with those hits.

And it still doesn't change the fact that Slade was up and pursuing Dick when Dick ran away, so Dick therefore didn't win the fight, because he didn't finish the fight lol everything else is fairly irrelevant. To summarize, Pre Flashpoint Dick and Slade fought numerous times, and of all those times Dick never once beat Slade. At best he only ever did well against him, and at worst was outright stomped. And off the top of my head, the same applies to Batman Pre Flashpoint.

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#66 Edited by JayAaerow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, this is quickly turning the wheel into some sort of Battle Thread.

The point of this entire debacle however is that: The showing of Dick vs Cassandra in which Dick grabbed her is not a feat. Cassandra Cain is not god or meta-human that would make it that special. I don't care If Pre-52 she was better or gotten praise more, cause all in all the most recent Pre-52 fight they had has him no pushover and actually doing something instead of getting his butt kicked. I don't find that atrocious to believe knowing that Dick has a decade worth of crime-fighting experience out of Cass's own, even If she's the superior martial artist. Dick is still smarter, more experienced, and is one of DC's best tacticians, Him landing some hits is not hard to believe. Agree to disagree If needs be. And the fight ended inconclusively so neither look that much more in favor.

I gave it some extra thought but I still feel this is NOT a feat in anyway possible. Dick in this continuity at his best has done well against Batman with no holding back on his end (Tom King said so in an podcast specifically because he was asked iirc), took down William Cobb despite being injured and potentially bleeding out, has held his own with Midnighter and with circumstances managed to beat him (Guys, he did not punch his lights out. Stop saying he did.), and had done surprisingly well with an Enhanced Joker that nearly killed Bruce whearas Dick almost manage to complete his objective until he used hypersonics If I recall. Recently, he fought against monsters made out of martial cells to act like mythical creatures like werewolves with Midnighter.

Point blank, we've seen Dick in a much better light. This is not the same case. Cassandra is, again, not meta-human or god. Dick grabbing her is nothing special cause she's still a adolescent 110lbsish girl with no special traits. She's just, perhaps If Dick wasn't holding back, the superb martial artist.

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#67 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

She's just, perhaps If Dick wasn't holding back, the superb martial artist.

Ergo, she's better than Dick, making it a feat. And as i've repeatedly said, allow more time for Eternal to go on and you'll certainly see more feats from Cassandra, whereupon Dick grabbing her will become more credible. Writing it off as not a feat because of her age and size makes little sense, as you'd then logically have to write off anything Dick accomplished against her Pre Flashpoint. However, no one here is doing that. Why? Because we know exactly how skilled Cassandra was Pre Flashpoint, whereas right now everyone save me seems to just be focusing on what Dick has done so far and instantly assuming that there should be no way Cassandra could accomplish what she just did, when we know nothing about her to imply such a thing.

But yes, agree to disagree.

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#68 Posted by SmoothJammin (2661 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't like how the Cassandra issue was handled.. I'm okay with Dick losing, except when writers think it's ok to use him as a stepping stone for other deuteragonists in his own book. She basically had her way with him. No way the fight is that one sided.

Props for attempting to choke her out. :l

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#69 Posted by nightwingism (221 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean it made sense that Dick wouldn't be able to do that good in a fight against Cass where:

1. He was already injured from a bullet graze to the shoulder

2. A surprise attack while he was riding his motorcycle

3. Dick, even in Pre-n52, was barely able to keep up with Cass. So it really isn't a stretch to think she'd win

And, stupidly, Dick completely underestimated an unknown target. Which is pretty out of character for Dick to do such a thing

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#70 Posted by JayAaerow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright. Some new set of feats. So far, I added some from Batman and Robin Eternal 2 where he applies his medical knowledge to helping Harper Row's serious injuries. A nice bit in which showcases he's not just a fighter, he's a healer. XD

Another set I uploaded thus far is the Garth vs Dick scuffle they have in Titans Hunt. Dick manages to dodge and surprise Garth, but still loses because he's still far stronger then a human like Dick. But Dick has good enough reflexes to dodge his attacks for a bount so that's impressive given Garth is Atlantean. And took a hit that didn't break him in half too. A good feat overall. I'll be back later for whatever may happen in Batman and Robin Eternal 3. Until then, cheers! Enjoy your new Dick feats.

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#71 Edited by redwingx (1359 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick gets stomped by Cass but not Midnighter. What logic is that. He should have been brutally killed off by Midnighter. Hes such a bad fighter. Getting stomped by a teenager.

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#72 Posted by JayAaerow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx said:

Dick gets stomped by Cass but not Midnighter. What logic is that. He should have been brutally killed off by Midnighter. Hes such a bad fighter. Getting stomped by a teenager.

Don't blame Grayson. Look at Tynion, who thinks Dick is better off as a supporting character and wrote Cass beating him with ease (granted, he was injured) but Jason getting the upperhand on him (same guy who also did the magical Lady Shiva one-shot). Just today, Dick look far better losing to Garth which makes sense since he's Atlantean but wasn't chumped out and was actually against a superhuman character who's somewhere close to Aquaman's level.

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#73 Posted by SmoothJammin (2661 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx said:

Dick gets stomped by Cass but not Midnighter. What logic is that. He should have been brutally killed off by Midnighter. Hes such a bad fighter. Getting stomped by a teenager.

Don't blame Grayson. Look at Tynion, who thinks Dick is better off as a supporting character and wrote Cass beating him with ease (granted, he was injured) but Jason getting the upperhand on him (same guy who also did the magical Lady Shiva one-shot). Just today, Dick look far better losing to Garth which makes sense since he's Atlantean but wasn't chumped out and was actually against a superhuman character who's somewhere close to Aquaman's level.

I told people I didn't trust Tynion writing Grayson since all the way back when a Nightwing and Bluebird book was being proposed. Waaaay before even. I dreaded the day he'd get his turn to butcher everything Seeley and King had worked so hard to build up in Agents of Spyral. Dweeb doesn't get the character at all in my opinion.

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#74 Posted by JayAaerow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

@smoothjammin:

The moment he started having this "theory" of each of the Robins representing Bruce Wayne like they're power rangers that make up 1/3 of the man is when I realized that IMO, he doesn't understand the Robins and how they manage to have such as strong fan following. I came for a Batfamily/Dick Grayson story, yet Dick gets nerfed via circumstances AND out of character in a book he's suppose to star (Seriously, he sells more then any other character in this book.) to up one character and Jason Todd got to dish out some surprise to Cassandra because we know Tynion can write Jason to unbelievable levels that no writer or even fans (Except die-hards) couldn't even keep consistent. Not to mention he also went and wrote Jason as a person who would seriously threaten a kid that he learned tried to actually help him with electrifists.......

I'm not really to much mad about Dick losing fights (like he did in Titans Hunt. I didn't care) but really, I'm sick of books he's suppose to "star" in favoring other characters on HIS anniversary and that status given to someone else or someone writing a character to mention what Dick isn't good enough to match up too so-and-so (Like god, how comparisons do writer want to make) or written to be implusive when that is out of character because there's already a "smart Robin" so it's "schtick" is taken despite the fact Dick trained Tim too.

I'm finding this book to starting to be a trainwreck in terms of characterization of only the Robins. Jason is written to have a more angrier personality that it offputs some development, Dick is written to be impulsive and was described as "never were as a good a detective" as Batman (once again. Never can we have a story that showcase his max capability. Just insulting comparisons and that's all it amounts to), and Tim is written to be mentioned to be smart but never really shows anything out of the ordinary. Batman subtly looking like a tool and looks like he didn't care for how Dick felt under the fear gas. EVERYONE ELSE, however, is written just fine. Cassandra and Harper get special treatment but in term of personality and whatnot, nothing bad. Same with Stephanie, Poppy, Matron, Frau, etc.

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#75 Edited by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

While I'm not the biggest fan of Batman and Robin Eternal, some of it coming from my biases against weekly's and Batfamily oriented stories because contrary to popular belief I don't think the Robins and Batgirls read as well when they're together, there's a tendency to oversimplify each character in order to create observable differences between them. But, I don't think Batman and Robin Eternal is that bad...it's just meh.

For now, the story holds my interest, it does seem more focused than Batman: Eternal. I do have some concerns as to how the 'Mother' plot-line will play out, I really hope that we don't get some revelation where the Robins were engineered by 'Mother' to work with Bruce. What a way to celebrating 75 years of Robin by completely destroying the moniker of 'Robin'. I do like that we're seeing these characters split up, Harper and Cass will team up with Dick and Jason/Tim do some crap that I don't care about.

Characterizations are eh, Dick's alright here, sometimes he comes across as the even-keeled leader and sometimes he's impulsive. I don't mind seeing a somewhat impulsive Dick in Grayson because he's not written as a team leader there..it's a solo act, but in Batman and Robin Eternal, he's gotta think clearly, or else you undermine the whole narrative of Dick being one of the best leaders in the DCU. Tim Drake is not an engaging character and I still hold the belief that there's no reason for him to exist in the DC You. He's supposed to be the brains of the team but frequently says stupid crap. Jason Todd or Red Hood as of now.is the...... comic relief......but I did chuckle at some of his wisecracks so there's that. What does help this book is the characterization of all the characters who are NOT Robin's. Cassandra, Harper and Stephanie are fine (I like Steph in particular). It's nice to see Matron interact with more characters even if it's through Dick, in many ways she's adopting the familiar moniker of being the 'female version of Batman'. It's also cool to see Poppy get a little more fleshed out.

Artwork is slowly going downhill, I understand Tony Daniel can't draw all of Batman and Robin Eternal but you still need to have the same pencil/inker team last through an entire issue, bad things can happen when you get multiple artists/inkers in one issue.

All-in-all, it's not terrible and is better so far than Batman:Eternal. But I'm not on the edge of my seat waiting for the next issue to come out.

I'll clean this post up later...

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#76 Posted by redwingx (1359 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick is far from being the best leader in DCU. He hardly uses his brain in Grayson.

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#77 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

While I'm not the biggest fan of Batman and Robin Eternal, some of it coming from my biases against weekly's and Batfamily oriented stories because contrary to popular belief I don't think the Robins and Batgirls read as well when they're together, there's a tendency to oversimplify each character in order to create observable differences between them. But, I don't think Batman and Robin Eternal is that bad...it's just meh.

For now, the story holds my interest, it does seem more focused than Batman: Eternal. I do have some concerns as to how the 'Mother' plot-line will play out, I really hope that we don't get some revelation where the Robins were engineered by 'Mother' to work with Bruce. What a way to celebrating 75 years of Robin by completely destroying the moniker of 'Robin'. I do like that we're seeing these characters split up, Harper and Cass will team up with Dick and Jason/Tim do some crap that I don't care about.

Characterizations are eh, Dick's alright here, sometimes he comes across as the even-keeled leader and sometimes he's impulsive. I don't mind seeing a somewhat impulsive Dick in Grayson because he's not written as a team leader there..it's a solo act, but in Batman and Robin Eternal, he's gotta think clearly, or else you undermine the whole narrative of Dick being one of the best leaders in the DCU. Tim Drake is not an engaging character and I still hold the belief that there's no reason for him to exist in the DC You. He's supposed to be the brains of the team but frequently says stupid crap. Jason Todd or Red Hood as of now.is the...... comic relief......but I did chuckle at some of his wisecracks so there's that. What does help this book is the characterization of all the characters who are NOT Robin's. Cassandra, Harper and Stephanie are fine (I like Steph in particular). It's nice to see Matron interact with more characters even if it's through Dick, in many ways she's adopting the familiar moniker of being the 'female version of Batman'. It's also cool to see Poppy get a little more fleshed out.

That's my only real fear out of this story, and I had it as soon as rumors started flying of Dick's origin being changed. However, i'm still holding out hope due to the fact that we've seen the origins of all the Robins so far. I couldn't see them doing a total revamp for that alone. At worst I expect to see that this "Mother" character maybe kidnapped, tortured, and brainwashed Dick at one point, or something along those lines, and he then forgot about it.

I think Dick's been written solidly so far, similar to some of Snyder's stuff, where you have him in a clear position of authority and everyone kind of naturally defers to him. My big issue however is with Tim, because it falls into the same old story where he's just there, and you're wondering why he's there at all. Though i'm also not expecting that to be fixed by Tynion, because it's been a problem since the New 52 started whenever the entire family is together.

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#79 Edited by SmoothJammin (2661 posts) - - Show Bio

Going toe to toe with David Cain aka Orphan. Places tactical skill on display by incapacitating a man who is quite literally one of the ten best martial artists in the DCU. Mostly fought off panel. Starting from right panel.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

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#80 Posted by JayAaerow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry for the long absence! I'll get started on updating this Respect thread. Dick has been up to some good lately. Specially the recent issue.

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#81 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Not a feat so much, but here's Bruce showing Dick some respect, which is always nice.

"A clearer version of what Batman was meant to be".

Damn shame they had to throw that Jason comment in, but beyond that I love everything else.

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#82 Posted by kiba (3744 posts) - - Show Bio

So in the latest issue of Grayson he kicks the snot out of Grifter after deducing a number of things about him. It was awesome. We also got some more of his theme song. No scans sorry.

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#83 Posted by Vitacura (116 posts) - - Show Bio
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#84 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitacura said:

@nathaniel_christopher: How is that a show of respect? I'm not even sure it actually means something.

??? He's complimenting each person he's talking about and what they've made of themselves. Not really sure how to make it any clearer than that, especially as he's comparing each of them to himself of all people and then saying they're better than him in that particular area. He's literally saying he sees Dick Grayson, Nightwing, as what he would have liked himself to be and that he envies Tim Drake's strategic mind. What is there to explain?

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#85 Edited by Vitacura (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher: "A clearer vision of what Batman was mean to be" It's a bunch of light words that don't say anything. It's not a description of any kind or a quality, capacity or merit.

Like; "@nathaniel_christopheris a clearer vision of what a comic vine comenter was meant to be" or Trump "A clearer vision of what a political was meant to be" or for a blind date "she is a clearer vision of what a girl was meant to be"

Tim is smart, and Jason kills (now, with Batman endorsement). Dick? well, Dick is a vision

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#86 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitacura said:

@nathaniel_christopher: "A clearer vision of what Batman was mean to be" It's a bunch of light words that don't say anything. It's not a description of any kind or a quality, capacity or merit.

Like; "@nathaniel_christopheris a clearer vision of what a comic vine comenter was meant to be" or Trump "A clearer vision of what a political was meant to be" or for a blind date "she is a clearer vision of what a girl was meant to be"

Tim is smart, and Jason kills (now, with Batman endorsement). Dick? well, Dick is a vision

Except we all know exactly what Bruce had in mind when he created Batman. It's a concept that's been gone over time and again since the character was created. If you don't know that i'd say that you need to read more about the character and shouldn't be reading Batman and Robin Eternal at all. Bruce is then taking that concept and saying Dick is the ideal version. Whereas in regards to your example of a comic vine commenter there's no clear guideline as to what that's supposed to entail. Same with the example of a girl. A politician isn't as bad, as i'd say people have clear ideas on what being a politician means, but it still might not be as clear. However, compare it instead to President of the United States or a teacher, roles/jobs that are defined in terms of goals and it makes perfect sense. Though even then, if someone said that "Jane is a clearer version of what a girl is meant to be" that's fairly high praise, though it does lack detail.

If someone said "Ms. Lane is a clearer vision of what a teacher is meant to be" that means she embodies the traits and job of a teacher at the highest level as far as that person is concerned. Same with Dick in regards to Batman. Even if you wanted to argue that Bruce doesn't go into detail in terms of how Dick does it exactly I don't really see how you'd honestly argue he's not showing his respect for Dick in the comment. If Superman said "Batman is a clear vision of what a hero is meant to be" does the how matter or the fact that Superman is stating he thinks Batman is the ideal hero? There's not a single way you could take the statement to be anything except praise. I'd say the words hold the highest merit possible, seeing as Bruce is comparing Dick to himself and acknowledging him as the superior. And the same again applies to Jason and Tim.

Tim's strategic, Jason's a killer, Dick's Bruce's vision of Batman come true, in a way that Bruce himself isn't.

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#87 Edited by Vitacura (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher: Superman is a reporter, I hope he woldn't use a hollow phrase to speak of a friend. That's pretty much the problem at it's best it's a platitude, a niceness because it doesn't say anything about Dick. Imagine it in a resume "Special attributes" "I'm clearer vision of what a employee is meant to be"

Nevermind that I'm pretty sure Batman was meant to inspire fear in criminals.

And if you go for this issue Batman was meant to give up

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#88 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitacura said:

@nathaniel_christopher: Superman is a reporter, I hope he woldn't use a hollow phrase to speak of a friend. That's pretty much the problem at it's best it's a platitude, a niceness because it doesn't say anything about Dick. Imagine it in a resume "Special attributes" "I'm clearer vision of what a employee is meant to be"

Nevermind that I'm pretty sure Batman was meant to inspire fear in criminals.

And if you go for this issue Batman was meant to give up

Platitudes are meaningless statements, which this isn't. None of what Batman says to Damian about the Robin's in the issue is, nor is it even treated as such within the work. As I said previously, there's no way to read this and argue that Bruce isn't showing respect to everyone he's speaking of, Damian included. I can understand wanting him to go more in-depth, that's one thing, but it also doesn't negate the purpose and praise of his speech. Heck, he said he respects Tim's strategic mind, yet didn't provide a single example as to why or for what.

Everyone in the Bat Family inspires fear in criminals and does all of the same things as Bruce does to some extent, so if you just take "inspire fear in criminals" then I don't really see how it's an issue still.

You could read the entire event and know that Batman's purpose isn't to give up, but ok.

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#89 Edited by Vitacura (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitacura said:

@nathaniel_christopher: Superman is a reporter, I hope he woldn't use a hollow phrase to speak of a friend. That's pretty much the problem at it's best it's a platitude, a niceness because it doesn't say anything about Dick. Imagine it in a resume "Special attributes" "I'm clearer vision of what a employee is meant to be"

Nevermind that I'm pretty sure Batman was meant to inspire fear in criminals.

And if you go for this issue Batman was meant to give up

Platitudes are meaningless statements, which this isn't. None of what Batman says to Damian about the Robin's in the issue is, nor is it even treated as such within the work. As I said previously, there's no way to read this and argue that Bruce isn't showing respect to everyone he's speaking of, Damian included. I can understand wanting him to go more in-depth, that's one thing, but it also doesn't negate the purpose and praise of his speech. Heck, he said he respects Tim's strategic mind, yet didn't provide a single example as to why or for what.

Everyone in the Bat Family inspires fear in criminals and does all of the same things as Bruce does to some extent, so if you just take "inspire fear in criminals" then I don't really see how it's an issue still.

You could read the entire event and know that Batman's purpose isn't to give up, but ok.

It is a meaningless statement. Looking around nobody seem to translate this phrase in the same way someone said "morality pet" " a good person" "a good hero". Everybody gets it's supposed to be good but in reality they are just filling in the blank. It is a nice sounding nothing.

A strategic mind is something to be respected, a clearer vision not so much, as Damian proved by punching Dick in the face, after he completely gave up.

Nothing about this event is respectful.

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#90 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitacura said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:
@vitacura said:

@nathaniel_christopher: Superman is a reporter, I hope he woldn't use a hollow phrase to speak of a friend. That's pretty much the problem at it's best it's a platitude, a niceness because it doesn't say anything about Dick. Imagine it in a resume "Special attributes" "I'm clearer vision of what a employee is meant to be"

Nevermind that I'm pretty sure Batman was meant to inspire fear in criminals.

And if you go for this issue Batman was meant to give up

Platitudes are meaningless statements, which this isn't. None of what Batman says to Damian about the Robin's in the issue is, nor is it even treated as such within the work. As I said previously, there's no way to read this and argue that Bruce isn't showing respect to everyone he's speaking of, Damian included. I can understand wanting him to go more in-depth, that's one thing, but it also doesn't negate the purpose and praise of his speech. Heck, he said he respects Tim's strategic mind, yet didn't provide a single example as to why or for what.

Everyone in the Bat Family inspires fear in criminals and does all of the same things as Bruce does to some extent, so if you just take "inspire fear in criminals" then I don't really see how it's an issue still.

You could read the entire event and know that Batman's purpose isn't to give up, but ok.

It is a meaningless statement. Looking around nobody seem to translate this phrase in the same way someone said "morality pet" " a good person" "a good hero". Everybody gets it's supposed to be good but in reality they are just filling in the blank. It is a nice sounding nothing.

A strategic mind is something to be respected, a clearer vision not so much, as Damian proved by punching Dick in the face, after he completely gave up.

Nothing about this event is respectful.

It's not a meaningless statement, as its fairly clear what Bruce is referring to overall, regardless of whether he goes into detail or not. Same with Tim, Jason, and Damian.

A clearer vision of Batman is something to be respected, especially when its Batman himself saying it.

Damian punching Dick had nothing to do with Bruce's statement about Dick being a clearer vision, so your point makes no sense and it proves nothing about the validity of Bruce's statement.

The event overall is bad. There are definitely good moments within it though, which goes for pretty much every event.

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#91 Posted by JayAaerow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll have to agree with the people in the thread saying that Batman's words about him being a "clearer vision of Batman" sounds all nice and tingly, but really amounts to /NOTHING/. Not to mention borderline disrespectful. I'm very much tired of the comparisons between him and Batman all the time.

A respectful event would have made more emphasis on Dick Grayson himself as a /person/, not his relationship to Batman. It was /his/ 75th anniversary and yet, I still had to read the redundant comparisons I've read way too many times. In this day and age, it's about time that Dick Grayson got defined without his relationship to Batman or even the Batfamily.

This event has been nothing but disrespectful. He can't even quit on his OWN terms. Oh no, If Bruce can't do it, he can't either. You cannot tell me they wrote this and the book is respectful. What's respectful about the guy who could be a GL quitting? Getting slapped by everyone? Being slow on solving mysteries to make the story last? His anniversary used to up another character who took traits form him? His skill always being called into question constantly?

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#92 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow said:

I'll have to agree with the people in the thread saying that Batman's words about him being a "clearer vision of Batman" sounds all nice and tingly, but really amounts to /NOTHING/. Not to mention borderline disrespectful. I'm very much tired of the comparisons between him and Batman all the time.

A respectful event would have made more emphasis on Dick Grayson himself as a /person/, not his relationship to Batman. It was /his/ 75th anniversary and yet, I still had to read the redundant comparisons I've read way too many times. In this day and age, it's about time that Dick Grayson got defined without his relationship to Batman or even the Batfamily.

This event has been nothing but disrespectful. He can't even quit on his OWN terms. Oh no, If Bruce can't do it, he can't either. You cannot tell me they wrote this and the book is respectful. What's respectful about the guy who could be a GL quitting? Getting slapped by everyone? Being slow on solving mysteries to make the story last? His anniversary used to up another character who took traits form him? His skill always being called into question constantly?

How does it come off as disrespectful? Do Tim or Jason's then come off as disrespectful? Becuase there's not liking something because you're tired of it and not liking it because it's negative. The former I can understand, the latter I can't. Even if you don't take any meaning from it I can't really see how it could be read as Bruce disrespecting Dick. Unless you mean disrespectful that the writer is comparing Dick to Bruce, in which case I assume that Jason, Tim, and Damian are also being disrespected.

Doubt Dick is ever not going to be compared to Bruce. Same for Jason, Tim, and Damian. Think that's honestly an unrealistic and unnecessary expectation. But then, i've never been one that was annoyed by it, as I think it makes sense for a man to be compared to his father. Though that may also be because i've had people compare me to my father (And older brother for that matter).

However, I also think that writers have always done just as much to show that while Dick is similar to Bruce (Which makes sense for too many reasons to even mention) he's not Bruce, existing as his own person. Same again applies to Jason and Tim.

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#93 Edited by Aahz (1286 posts) - - Show Bio

I would have also preferred if Batman said something more specific about their strength, and if this strength had played actually a role in the final show down.

And Jason as the "killer" is (appart from the questions if this is ooc for Bruce) a dumb defining trait, because I don't think that a Batman event will ever end with a situation where Jason had to kill the main villain because it was the only option to save the day (and where Bruce has to admit it). Even in the last events it was always someone who isn't part of the Batfamily who did it. Thalia was killed by Kathy Kane, Cluemaster by Lincon March and Mother by Orphan.

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#94 Posted by kiba (3744 posts) - - Show Bio

I think people set out to do things with their lives, sometimes important things, and for whatever reason they fail to live up to that, at least in their own eyes. When Bruce says Dick is "a clearer version of Batman" I take that to mean that he thinks Dick is living up to the expectations and ideals he had for himself when he first decided to put on the cowl but failed to live up to. Again, at the least, in his own eyes. People are their own worse critics and Bruce is very hard on himself.

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#95 Posted by JayAaerow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow said:

I'll have to agree with the people in the thread saying that Batman's words about him being a "clearer vision of Batman" sounds all nice and tingly, but really amounts to /NOTHING/. Not to mention borderline disrespectful. I'm very much tired of the comparisons between him and Batman all the time.

A respectful event would have made more emphasis on Dick Grayson himself as a /person/, not his relationship to Batman. It was /his/ 75th anniversary and yet, I still had to read the redundant comparisons I've read way too many times. In this day and age, it's about time that Dick Grayson got defined without his relationship to Batman or even the Batfamily.

This event has been nothing but disrespectful. He can't even quit on his OWN terms. Oh no, If Bruce can't do it, he can't either. You cannot tell me they wrote this and the book is respectful. What's respectful about the guy who could be a GL quitting? Getting slapped by everyone? Being slow on solving mysteries to make the story last? His anniversary used to up another character who took traits form him? His skill always being called into question constantly?

How does it come off as disrespectful? Do Tim or Jason's then come off as disrespectful? Becuase there's not liking something because you're tired of it and not liking it because it's negative. The former I can understand, the latter I can't. Even if you don't take any meaning from it I can't really see how it could be read as Bruce disrespecting Dick. Unless you mean disrespectful that the writer is comparing Dick to Bruce, in which case I assume that Jason, Tim, and Damian are also being disrespected.

Doubt Dick is ever not going to be compared to Bruce. Same for Jason, Tim, and Damian. Think that's honestly an unrealistic and unnecessary expectation. But then, i've never been one that was annoyed by it, as I think it makes sense for a man to be compared to his father. Though that may also be because i've had people compare me to my father (And older brother for that matter).

However, I also think that writers have always done just as much to show that while Dick is similar to Bruce (Which makes sense for too many reasons to even mention) he's not Bruce, existing as his own person. Same again applies to Jason and Tim.

(Apologies on the late reply)

Yeah, I mean it being disrespectful in the "writer comparing Dick to Bruce" too and to an extent, I think it does insult the other Robins. I do not mean Bruce himself disrespected it cause in that context, he see's it and words it as a compliment. Again, the comparison of Dick (and the Robins in general) and Batman have been the most done to death things and tend to actually take focus off of them as independent cahracters.

I don't mind comparisions at all. The act of comaprison in itself is inevitable and interesting from time to time. Just a book chock full of 'em tend to annoy me, especially when they amount to "you're not as a good as xyz". And ill timing in my opinion. An event centered around Robins should focus on them or at least let them have indepedent agencies. Imagine If Batman's anniversary featured a event that started heavily on Superman and compared him constantly to Superman that chalked up to "He's not as good".

And I agree, they do show Dick is similar to Bruce but NOT Bruce along with the Robin. But how many times are we going to explore that with a big storyline? I love legacies but it's a tired theme with the Robins and I would like a little variety and have that particular theme explored here and there. Robin War wasn't perfect to me, but I liked the idea of it since it did actually focus on the Robins on more then solely the idea of how they relate to Batman. I feel there's more interesting stories to be told then how a character revolves around Batman, even If you make it sound nice and respectable.

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#97 Posted by JayAaerow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

Did some updates finally. Not completely done, as I need to get a little more of the Batman & Robin Eternal and Robin: War feats too. But there's some of the earlier issues of Batman & Robin Eternal feats up and most other things are from Grayson.

I also added a portrayal portion so when series take a shat on Dick,exaggerates to Dick God level, or has a good conssitent appearance, we can made note of it somewhere so people looking in this can get as INFORMED AS POSSIBLE. I encourage people to pull up disagreements/agreements/personal opinions should they be INFORMED.

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#98 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

Gonna add some feats to this thread that I think are worth pointing out

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From Batman and Robin Eternal, Dick is the one to take down Mother (villain introduced in this series, responsible for training "Orphans" like David Cain). She doesn't have tons of feats, but we see her fending off all the other Robins in quick succession before Dick puts her down. At the very least, I think it confirms his place as the best of the Robins in h2h

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Cool fight with Grifter (some scans were already posted of it, I think, but here's the full thing). Notable because of Grifter's telepathy

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Casually beats one of Darkseid's Furies

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Fends off Azrael, eventually talking him down. Not really a clear winner

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Maybe one of Nightwing's best fights where he clears through a hoarde of super villains. These are not well known (or even that well established) villains, and there's a fair amount of plot involved (really, he shouldn't be taking out Superman level bricks or highly skilled fighters like Shado so easily), but it's a cool showing nontheless

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#99 Edited by Catlike (234 posts) - - Show Bio

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