GRAYSON general discussion

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#1 Posted by blackhawk000111 (980 posts) - - Show Bio

What do u think about preview of grayson

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#2 Posted by JazzLover (74 posts) - - Show Bio

The art is amazing and the story looks really good so far. I can't wait to see more of him and his new life as an agent. I also like how he is treated like a newbie and has to work his way up as an agent. I bet he has to prove himself several times before he can get close to the importent people in the spy agency btw. the way he used his gun in the preview was amazing.

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#3 Posted by blackhawk000111 (980 posts) - - Show Bio

Was he midnighter who is watching him

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#4 Posted by Pperspectiveandreality (2096 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope they use this to expand the DCU. The guy watching with binoculars looked like Midnighter. I hope they get Steve Trevor, Amanda Waller, ARGUS, and Batman involved. I hope he gets some awesome gadgets. Art was fantastic. I dug the story. I'm all in.

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#5 Edited by blackhawk000111 (980 posts) - - Show Bio

I want him to meet other heroes and villians like Steve Trevor, Amanda, Waller, ARGUS, Deathstroke,Midnighte,Wally West,Static,Blue Beetle and teen titans etc but I dont want batman to get involved.It will be nice to see him meet superman he was his mentor before reboot

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#6 Edited by redwingx (1359 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure how hes gonna meet other heroes when hes just not a spy but a spyral agent now. I guess he could like meet them in his mission but he can't just be with the Titans and so on because of Spyral. He doesn't have the freedom to do and hes under a boss now.

Not to mention Spyral ain't no good guys. They are hunting masked heroes remember?

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#7 Posted by Pperspectiveandreality (2096 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx:

Still plenty of reason and opportunity to interact with ARGUS and Steve Trevor and Amanda Waller and even Stormwatch.

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#8 Edited by Mercy_ (94928 posts) - - Show Bio

So on board with this, and it's the last thing I thought I'd ever want.

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#9 Posted by redwingx (1359 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx:

Still plenty of reason and opportunity to interact with ARGUS and Steve Trevor and Amanda Waller and even Stormwatch.

Stormwatch has been retconned.

I can see Dick interacting with ARGUS but why Steve Trevor?

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#10 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx said:

@pperspectiveandreality said:

@redwingx:

Still plenty of reason and opportunity to interact with ARGUS and Steve Trevor and Amanda Waller and even Stormwatch.

Stormwatch has been retconned.

I can see Dick interacting with ARGUS but why Steve Trevor?

No it hasn't

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#11 Posted by knightofthechronicle (1396 posts) - - Show Bio

So Dick's blonde now? I'm sure that it's just a disguise but it just through me off not to see him with black hair

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#12 Edited by jayc1324 (26432 posts) - - Show Bio

Happy to see he doesn't actually use a gun. I still don't like the idea of Dick as a spy, but the gun was my main problem so I'll probably give this a try in TPB depending on reviews and if the story seems relevant or not

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#13 Posted by Pperspectiveandreality (2096 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx said:

@pperspectiveandreality said:

@redwingx:

Still plenty of reason and opportunity to interact with ARGUS and Steve Trevor and Amanda Waller and even Stormwatch.

Stormwatch has been retconned.

I can see Dick interacting with ARGUS but why Steve Trevor?

Steve Trevor works for Argus along with Amanda Waller

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#14 Edited by redwingx (1359 posts) - - Show Bio

@pperspectiveandreality said:

@redwingx said:

@pperspectiveandreality said:

@redwingx:

Still plenty of reason and opportunity to interact with ARGUS and Steve Trevor and Amanda Waller and even Stormwatch.

Stormwatch has been retconned.

I can see Dick interacting with ARGUS but why Steve Trevor?

Steve Trevor works for Argus along with Amanda Waller

Ah I see. I don't know much about Steve Trevor.

@jonny_anonymous said:

@redwingx said:

@pperspectiveandreality said:

@redwingx:

Still plenty of reason and opportunity to interact with ARGUS and Steve Trevor and Amanda Waller and even Stormwatch.

Stormwatch has been retconned.

I can see Dick interacting with ARGUS but why Steve Trevor?

No it hasn't

Yes it has. Read the final issue.

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#15 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx: I read the final issue, they all came back from wherever the hell they were and it was business as usual.

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#16 Posted by nightwingism (221 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick Grayson is suppose to be dead to practically everyone. I don't think he will be able to communicate with such people like Steve Trevor without risking compromising his secret. Unless he begs him to not tell Wonder Woman, and therefore superman, and goes back to Batman. It would make sense, but they would need to do something where they don't know it is Dick, or they keep his secret

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#17 Edited by Knightfall225 (2145 posts) - - Show Bio

The preview was pretty cool. Dick actually looks cool with blonde hair. I can't wait to see what the relationship between Midnighter and Grayson will be. Enemies or allies?

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#18 Posted by Catriona_Knightfall (999 posts) - - Show Bio

>:)

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#19 Posted by redwingx (1359 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx: I read the final issue, they all came back from wherever the hell they were and it was business as usual.

My friend told me that MM wiped the team's memories and reality changed so that they never formed bs.

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#20 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@redwingx: I read the final issue, they all came back from wherever the hell they were and it was business as usual.

My friend told me that MM wiped the team's memories and reality changed so that they never formed bs.

MM wiped their memories so they don't know he was on the team but the rest isn't true.

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#21 Edited by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to bump this thread because with all of the interesting things going on in Grayson (not to mention it's good), I think this thread needs more discussion.

No Caption Provided

It's going to be interesting to see how the conflict between Dick Grayson and Midnighter play out. While I believe that this fight will end up with these two burying the hatchet, Dick Grayson does need to be bumped up a little with regards to feats (like show off the hypnos to a bigger extent) considering how ridiculously powerful Jason has become and Damian with the superpowers. The Higgin's Nightwing run was never big on building a huge library of awesome feats for Dick, which was fine but the power ranking of the Batfamily should be Bruce>Dick>Jason>Tim>Damian.

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#22 Posted by oompers (99 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, Dick just beat Bruce in an all-out fist fight, so there's that. And Jason really isn't that special. Remember his entire character revolves around him not living up to Dick's standards, he admits that Barbara is better than him, and Damian even gets the upper hand on him.

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#23 Posted by Vitacura (116 posts) - - Show Bio

A fight against Midnighter is a fight that Dick shouldn't win, but I hope is a good fight.

I'm really curious about the God Garden

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#24 Posted by midnightdragon18 (9871 posts) - - Show Bio

@oompers: lol current Jason would curbstomp current Dick.

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#25 Posted by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

As of right now, it's definitely easier to make the case that Jason would beat Dick.

The wildcard in this is the hypnos because apparently he's already mastered most of its usage and the ability to hypnotize your opponent isn't something to be taken lightly, no matter how powerful they are. Now obviously in Grayson, we haven't seen that ability executed to its fullest so it can't be used in a battle forum just yet. It's biggest weakness so far is the override, which only Spyral Agents know.

Though, it wouldn't surprise me that after the Dick/Midnighter "fight", Dick Grayson understands the threat of Paragon and Spyral and looks to overcome the hypnos override. Midnighter and Gardner would help him out at God Garden....maybe he gets a battle computer similar to Midnighter (he already has the ability to read movements) and is trained on how to use it. Battle Computer+Hpynos+BeingTrainedbyMidnighterandBatman = DickGod.

Is it stupid, yes, could it potentially break the character, yes, but since DC apparently wants to descend into anarchy by giving Jason as many power ups as possible and give Damian superpowers, you might as well help the First Robin out.

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#26 Posted by flying_fish (33 posts) - - Show Bio

As of right now, it's definitely easier to make the case that Jason would beat Dick.

Eh, not really. Dick was able to fight off two different Talons during the City of Owls, while Jason was handily defeated by one. And most of Jason's Pre-New52 history from Grant Morrison's run is still intact, as Jason acknowledges all the times he's attempted (and failed, obviously) to kill Dick. Given that Dick can read movements, is a natural athlete, and is already accustomed to avoiding gunfire (which Jason is dependent on), the matchup would most likely go to Dick. And then you have Hypnos. In terms of character relationships, it makes far more sense that Dick is superior to Jason, as one of Jason's defining traits is his resentment of Dick for being the "ace" of the family, and the only one that Bruce acknowledges as an equal. But then again, Jason as a character has been written pretty badly in the New 52. Barbara and Tim haven't exactly been written well, either, though.

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#27 Posted by redwingx (1359 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter should own Dick hard. No contest really which is why I'm not all that hyped about this upcoming showdown. @flying_fish said:

@youknowwhattodo said:

As of right now, it's definitely easier to make the case that Jason would beat Dick.

Eh, not really. Dick was able to fight off two different Talons during the City of Owls, while Jason was handily defeated by one. And most of Jason's Pre-New52 history from Grant Morrison's run is still intact, as Jason acknowledges all the times he's attempted (and failed, obviously) to kill Dick. Given that Dick can read movements, is a natural athlete, and is already accustomed to avoiding gunfire (which Jason is dependent on), the matchup would most likely go to Dick. And then you have Hypnos. In terms of character relationships, it makes far more sense that Dick is superior to Jason, as one of Jason's defining traits is his resentment of Dick for being the "ace" of the family, and the only one that Bruce acknowledges as an equal. But then again, Jason as a character has been written pretty badly in the New 52. Barbara and Tim haven't exactly been written well, either, though.

So was Batman.

Jason's new52 feats stomps Dick's really hard. Jason>everyone in the Batfamily atm in terms of feats.

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#28 Posted by nightwingism (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx: Dick, as shown in Grayson and mainly during his Chicago arc during Nightwing, has been shown to be pretty competent while in a fight, while Jason hasn't been shown to be able to do AS much by myself, leaning a lot on his team

Jason doesn't have an edge over Dick, as Dick not only has more experience, but more skill and now his mastered hypnotic implants. Jason's main thing is that he has guns, which is easily countered with a well placed wingding or even Dick's pistol now if you want Agent Grayson instead of his Nightwing persona, and currently Jason is on some type of Venom, but that's probably temp. Really, Dick could win in a fight against Jason, would it be an easy fight? Heck no. But Dick would win 6 or 7/10

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#29 Edited by midnightdragon18 (9871 posts) - - Show Bio

@nightwingism: I would say stalemate

.Nightwing only has one more year of experience than Jason, that won't nearly be enough considering Jason has beaten foes who have hundreds of years of experience.

.He has more than guns, he packs swords too.

.skill is debatable

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#30 Posted by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

I implore everyone who is a fan of good things to check out Tom King's interview with comicbook resources.

It's not surprising that one of his comicbook writing influences is Alan Moore because his writing style is very reminiscent of Moore's, mainly the idea of playing numerous literary devices such as symbolism and allegory into each issue. I'm not saying he's the next Alan Moore, just that his writing is clearly influenced by it in a good way.

On the other hand

Because of what Spyral is, it's probably a bad idea to take anything in the series at face value. Also, that was a "Futures End" issue. Remember that this world is not a world that has to be. Both Tim and I want to explore what Helena means to Dick. As we go forward, you'll see their relationship evolve and devolve and evolve again. Really though, for me at least, Dick's true love might be someone else. Answers are right in front of you, I guess.

I think I know who and what he's referring too, but I hope the fandom doesn't misinterpret the last two sentences.

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#31 Posted by flying_fish (33 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty obvious it's Bruce. Or Lady Shiva.

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#32 Edited by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

@flying_fish said:

Pretty obvious it's Bruce. Or Lady Shiva.

Yep, pretty sure it's Bruce.

I just have to ask....why Lady Shiva?

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#33 Posted by nightwingism (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@midnightdragon18: Both Nightwing and Jason have beat people with more years of experience, Nightwing did it twice, as shown in #8 and #9.

And I know he has swords, but the guns seemed more of a threat to Nightwing, to counter him, than the swords. Nightwing has his own Escrima sticks to counter the swords.

But yeah, I agree to the stalemate. Tim on the other hand...

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#34 Posted by oompers (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@youknowwhattodo

Well, there was that bizarre fan theory someone posted a while back that Lady Shiva and Nightwing were gonna hook up and the new Cassandra Cain would be their child :)

But actually, I think Tom King is talking about Babs, at least in a romantic sense. He mentions that Birds of Prey #8 is one of his favorite Grayson stories. Though I guess you could say his strongest relationship is with Bruce (in a brotherly way, NOT in the way that tumblr thinks).

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#35 Posted by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

@oompers: I understand that theory because I saw the thread where many of the Dick Grayson fandom set themselves up for broken hearts. It's just with regards to Dick/Sandra, the answers are not right in front of us, nor are they behind us, or to the left or to the right of us. It is a love story that cannot be seen in the physical realm we occupy lol.

It's possible that Tom King was referring to Babs, but if we're going based off what we've seen so far in Grayson, that answer is also not in front of us (at least not yet). It's important to note that one of the writers of Grayson, Tim Seeley also wrote Batman Eternal where he inserted an awkward Jason/Babs romantic subplot that served no purpose into the weekly series. The only scene that Dick and Babs had together in Grayson was more of a discouragement of Dick/Babs and an encouragement of Dick/Helena because she was/is the female-version of Batman. One of the main conflicts that this series will have (gathered this based on interviews with Tim/Tom) is who will have more of an influence over Dick Grayson, Helena or Bruce Wayne. We all know who Dick will choose in the end so in the context of that quote by Tom King, I'm interpreting his true love to be Bruce, but like you said, in a brotherly way. Which by the way, it's amazing to see how the Spyral mission has made the Dick and Bruce feel like brothers and the only ones each other can trust, definitely did not see that coming when the series started.

Again, not discounting Barbara as being the true love Tom King is referring too, but as of now, she's just not as much of a presence in the story as Bruce is.

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#36 Posted by oompers (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@youknowwhattodo I don't think you can really take that Future's End Dick/Babs scene with anyone more than a grain of salt. The whole issue is simply an alternate scenario with little continuity to the actual series. The Dick/Helena romance was extremely important as the driving force of that story, and it was necessary to kill the lingering shadow of Dick/Babs in order to make that romance believable. Tom King himself said that the one-shot doesn't really represent what Seeley and King have in store. In fact, I'd say that we've already seen everything that a potential Dick/Helena romance has to offer in the story. We saw the buildup, the tension, and the eventual payoff (culminating in Helena choosing to save Dick's life over obeying orders). As for that awkward Jay/Barbara subplot, I doubt it will come to be anything more than just an experimental tease for tumblr shippers. Seeley killed it before it even started, by bringing back the lingering shadow of Dick. Babs is clearly single in her rebooted series (which takes place after Eternal), and it looks like she'll stick in her own corner of the world for a while.

As for the Lady Shiva stuff, that was a joke. Given Dick's .... "reputation", there's always a paranoia that Dick will end up sleeping with any named female character he comes across.

Regarding Dick and Bruce's brotherly relationship, we do see hints of that early on. That last issue of the City of Owls arc was particularly poignant, and there was also the Batman and Nightwing issue. I think it's a way for the writers to distinguish Dick from the rest of Bruce's sons, which is probably necessary, as the other Batfamily members aren't very well distinguished. The rest tend to just line up as three little soldiers waiting for orders, and taking turns talking.

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#37 Edited by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

Grayson #4 Preview, with better quality.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Chris Burnham summarized this issue in 2 words.... Manty Raid and that's exactly what seems to be going on.

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#38 Posted by Transformers1024 (7603 posts) - - Show Bio

I read the first issue and wasn't too fond of it. Anyone else think so too?

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#39 Posted by nightwingism (221 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm really excited. When I first saw the cover, I thought the girls were trying to kill him. Now with the preview, I'm thinking they are trying to get the booty

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#40 Posted by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by The_Kidd (12584 posts) - - Show Bio

So anyone thinks Helena wasn't sincere at the end and was just trying to get close to him so she can expose him as the mole.

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#42 Edited by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio
@the_kidd said:

So anyone thinks Helena wasn't sincere at the end and was just trying to get close to him so she can expose him as the mole.

I think that she had ulterior motives, but I don't know if it is to expose him. Part of me believes that Spyral already knows that Dick Grayson is a mole for Batman, and that they are playing him just as much as Dick believes he is playing them. After all, one of the higher ups is very familiar with Batman and Nightwing.

Personally, I think that The Tiger is the mole.

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#43 Posted by The_Kidd (12584 posts) - - Show Bio

@youknowwhattodo: Yeah I to taught that Spyral is toying with him and that it was odd that he haven't cross paths with Kathy yet, curious though why do you think Tiger is a mole?

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#44 Posted by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_kidd: Several reasons

1) Mister Minos said that the mole was using Spyral communications, it can't be Dick Grayson as his method of communicating with Batman was hotwiring a transistor radio. Maybe the transistor radio could be considered part of Spyral communications but that's a stretch. The mole has to be someone else within Spyral who knows what they're doing and knows that they probably would be one of the last people to be suspected. Tiger is Agent 1 and he is known as one of the best they have.

2) Mister Minos said that there were suspicious messages coming from Agent 8 (Alia), Tiger was Alia's partner so it's not out of the realm of possibility that those two would be working together against Spyral.

3) Tiger being outed and hunted by Spyral, combined with him likely blaming Dick for Alia's death would be an easy way for Tiger to develop a vendetta against Dick.

It's also possible that Helena could be the mole and she's working with someone else (likely Kathy) to undermine Mister Minos. However I think that Tiger is the better bet.

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#45 Posted by The_Kidd (12584 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by Vitacura (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@youknowwhattodo: Maybe they are all moles. That would be pretty funny, and doesn't mean they are all in the same side if they all had different agendas.

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#47 Edited by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitacura: That might happen but having three characters be moles for three separate entities all thrown in alongside the main plot could get real convoluted real quick. Tim Seeley and Tom King might be able to pull it off, but it would probably be better for them to pick either Helena or Tiger.

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#48 Edited by JayAaerow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Kathy is as involved with Spyral as we were led to believe. With Batman Inc. Volume 2, she said she was a "headmistress". We already seen a headmistress in Grayson, which was that lady Steph and Batman busted in Pre-52 Batman Inc. While a high position, I don't think Kathy is incharge. IF she was, Mister Minos got that position from her. He is referred to as Director by Helena.

I don't think Spyral knows at the moment. They may be competent but it is a Grayson book. With what Helena says and how Alia talked to him, they think he joined because he has no where else to go. They don't suspect a Batman connection because they think to him, Grayson is dead. It's not like Dick is bad at keeping secrets or looking like he has no secets. If Batman could find their objective without being spotted, I think Dick can infiltrate without any suspicion intially given a chance. They really have nothing to go for them right now.

In any case, It seems Minos recruited him anyway. If Kathy was invovled, she would probably have second thoughts. I'm sure Minos recruited him because he was a former superhero and therefore, his forte would be these type of missions where he's going against superheroes and unmasking them seeing as Spyral's objective have deviated from stopping the Leviathan to gathering body parts of a superhuman being.

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#49 Edited by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: When talking about the series, Tom King said that because of the nature of what Spyral does, it's a bad idea to take anything in the series at face value as their power comes from lies and manipulation. So for almost every mission or interaction, I'm assuming that something greater is at play and that not everything is as it seems. I think a great example of this was in the Futures End issue. If Spyral is as smart, dangerous and as paranoid as we are led to believe, those in charge wouldn't be that naive with regards to their newest agent.

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#50 Posted by oompers (99 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Helena is loyal and she does suspect Dick, but she's attempting to rein in Dick in her own way, by getting closer to him.

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