Batgirl or Starfire?

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#101 Edited by Glaucus (569 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe that Barbara has a big advantage over Kory as Dick's love interest in one way that is fundamental. Barbara is a human like Dick, and she doesn't stand out. She can easily blend in with other humans. She has a secret identity. The public doesn't know that Barbara and Batgirl are one and same. When she hangs out with Dick Grayson, nobody would able to know that Batgirl is hanging out with Dick Grayson leading to people figure out Dick Grayson is Nightwing.

Kory is an alien, and she stands out with her orange skin and 6'4 height. She cannot blend in with humans like Barbara does. She has no secret identity.Dick hanging out with her would lead others to figuring out that he is Nightwing.

Instead of creating the "Dick never loved Kory and that it was always Barbara that he loved" which strongly contradicts what's been shown between them from 1980 to 1994, what could have been written and shown was:

Dick believed that he couldn't be with Kory because being with her would jeopardize his secret identity as well as Batman's identity. How he comes to the decision is Bruce confronting him about the problem which leads to him heavily pressured to make a choice. He would sacrifice his happiness with the woman he loves to protect the man who has been a father to him. It would be about sacrificing his desires and needs for the greater good. Furthermore, it would also emphasize the Bat-life overshadowing him no matter how much he resists which mirrors how Bat office had taken him away from the Titan office.

If I was editorial that wanted and planned for Dick and Kory to get back together, I would have it that Starfire goes back to having a secret identity as Kory Anders.

The things that I would change to do that is:

Change her orange skin back to the original golden skin which was chalked up as being a Mediterranean tan by her brief boyfriend Franklin and her being referred to as Tawny Vixen by Roy. This way, her skin has a natural human skin color.

Make her shorter. Her official height says 6'4. I'd change it to 6'0. In The New Teen Titans, Volume 1,issue #2, she has appeared shorter than Dick Grayson who is listed as 5'10 when they met up at the swimming pool in Garfield's mansion. There were early comic issues that had her around the same height or a little taller like when she was standing next to him on her first date on panel shown in The New Teen Titans Volume 1, issue #26.

Change her hair back to the thick,wavy auburn hair but make it less bushy,thick,and less long than in the original so it still looks normal. Leave out the hair looking like it flames up. It's unnecessary.

Keep her light green alien eyes, but have her wear contacts lenses that give her normal looking eyes when she is disguised as human. She could get them from Star Labs. Hiding her eyes behind sunglasses like she did before doesn't seem practical. If she's back to having a career as a model, her eyes should be shown most of the time. When she is going to social events and meeting people, it's better for her eyes to be shown for eye contact is important in socializing and communicating with others.

This would be away to not tell that Starfire and Kory Anders are one and the same and enable her to be with Dick without jeoparding his secret identity and Batman's secret identity.

When I was reading the old comics, I felt the writer and artist did a lousy job of separating her Starfire identity from her Kory Anders identity with the extreme thick,bushy wavy hair that makes her stand out very much. Her hiding her alien eyes behind sunglasses did not seem effective to keep others from knowing that she's Starfire.

Then they just said...the hell with it, the public knows she's Starfire. Then later on, they just made her skin color orange so it's all the way impossible for her to blend in with humans.

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#103 Posted by Glaucus (569 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to address misconceptions about the Dick/Kory fanbase .

I see people assuming that the Dick/Kory ship is very popular because of the Teen Titans cartoon show that first aired on July 2003. That show is based on Marv Wolfman run, The New Teen Titans,Tales of the Teen Titans,and the Titans comics from 1980 to 1994 which was the period when Dick Grayson (aka Robin,Nightwing) and Koriand'r (Starfire) were each other's love interest for fourteen straight years.

The Marv Wolfman run, New Teen Titans was one of the best-selling and popular comic series that even rivaled X-Men. In 1982, Marvel and DC Present featuring The Uncanny X-Men and The New Teen Titans was released. Dick became one of the most popular comic book characters during his time in the Marv Wolfman run, The New Teen Titans.

Dick/Kory was very popular among comic book readers and was one of the most iconic comic book couples during the 1980s and 1990s. My favorite comic book couple of all time is Peter Parker (Spider-Man)/Mary Jane Watson, and they're one of the most popular and iconic couples in comic book history. There was a time that Mary Jane was out of comics when Dick and Kory were each other's love interests and was not in a relationship with Peter when Dick and Kory were in a relationship. Mary Jane turned down Peter's marriage proposal and left him in 1977. During the time that Mary Jane was out of comics, Peter had other love interests including especially Felicia Hardy (Black Cat) who was his relationship partner when Mary Jane was brought back in comics in The Amazing Spider-Man, Volume 1, issue #238 published March 1982. It was 1982 when Dick and Kory became an official couple in The New Teen Titans, Volume 1 issue #26 that was published on December 1982. In that issue, Dick revealed to Kory that he does have romantic love feelings for her after the aftermath of Teen Titans' attempt to rescue Kory from Kory's sister Komand'r (Blackfire) and the Citadel who had made Kory a slave for 5 or 6 years , and they were depicted as going out on dates for a few weeks with their first onpanel date being Dick and Kory going to a Broadway show. Peter broke up with Felicia in Peter Parker,The Spectacular Spider-Man Volume 1, #100 published March 1985. Therefore, Peter was still in a relationship with Felicia even after Mary Jane came back into his life. In Spider-Man Versus Wolverine published on February 1987, Peter and Mary Jane realized that they were deceiving themselves about the depth of their feelings for each other and that they were very much in love.

Peter and Mary Jane didn't get back into a relationship until they got married in The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21 published September 1987. They got married and became one of the greatest comic book couples of all time with a marriage that lasted 20 years.

Just one month before that in August 1987, The New Teen Titans Volume 2, Issue #34 had Dick and Kory resuming their relationship after Dick broke up with her because he didn't want to be with her while she was in a marriage of state with Prince Karras to prevent a civil war that would save millions of lives on Tamaran in The New Teen Titans Volume 2, Issue #18 published on March 1986. Dick and Kory got back together after 17 months apart even though they were still in love with each other, and the issue #34 with a very happy Kory flying herself and Dick high into the night time sky ending with the very last page with them in an embrace and romantic kiss against the background of starlit sky. I believe that it is one of the most iconic romantic scenes in comics, and so I had to show it to you. I am convinced that Dick/Kory was not far behind Peter/Mary Jane in popularity at the time. I came to the conclusion that Dick/Kory was to DC that Peter/Mary Jane was to Marvel at the time.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156388071465901&set=a.138272345900&type=3&theater

Since they got back together, their relationship got way better to the point that there was a strong trust and understanding of each other. Dick told Kory his constant dreams of making love to Raven, and Kory listened without any jealousy and gives input about love and feelings from her Tamaranean perspective that ends up impressing Dick. Kory talks to Raven for Dick, and she helps Raven understand that her powers are influencing Dick and that she really isn't in love with Dick. Raven realizes that she's speaking the truth and feels ashamed and wants to leave, but Kory comforts and befriends her. The two became very good friends after that. Kory and Raven tricked Dick with Raven kissing Dick like she was in love with him. After they revealed the trick, Dick tells Kory that he moved his stuff in her apartment. Kory is so happy that she picks him up and she flies high into sky as they hug and kiss. All this takes place in The New Teen Titans, Volume 2 issue #39.

In The New Titans issue #71 published in November 1990, Dick thinks about how much he loves her and how she helped him with his emotions. He even tells a story about space princess Kory to a little girl who was on a ledge. In the story, he described Kory as beautiful on the outside but also beautiful on the inside and that she believed in truth and fairness for everyone. While Dick is telling this story about Kory, Kory got tricked by somebody pretending to need help, drugged,beaten up,and taken prisoner. The next comic issue was the beginning Titan Hunt story. The Conclusion of the Titan Hunt in The New Titans issue #84 had Dick reunited with Kory and other captured Titans in Azarath, but Raven is completely taken over by Trigon. Dick and Kory's relationship goes downhill with Kory still being affected by what happened to her in Azarath and Mirage disguising herself as Kory and having sex with Dick. After the events with Mirage, Kory feels insecure about Dick's love for her even though Dick is still in love with her. Still feeling hurt and hating he didn't know he had been with Mirage and she can recognize everything about him, she breaks up with him in New Titans issue #97. In the New Titans issue #99, Dick desperately tries to get back together with Kory and he even goes to a club dressed up as Nightwing and tries to talk to her when Kory was with a friend watching a show. Kory doesn't want to talk to him until later. Nightwing comes off a bit possessive, and her friend intervenes. Nightwing gets violent with him. Kory blasts him with a starbolt. Not long after, he shows up at Kory's apartment at 3:30 AM and tells Kory that he loves and needs her,admitted that he was thinking with his hormones and not his head in regards to not being able to know that he was having sex with somebody disguised as Kory, saying his morality makes him a one-woman man and that she's that woman and will always be, and asking her to marry him leading to the last page of Dick and Kory in each other's arms kissing. Obviously, Kory accepted Dick's marriage proposal.

You can imagine that a lot of Teen Titans comic fans were very disappointed when Dick and Kory had a wedding in the August 1993 published The New Titans issue #100 only for it to end with Trigon-possessed Raven crashing it and implanting Kory with Trigon's demon seed which all led to Kory breaking up with Dick and returning to Tamaran. In New Titans issue #114 published in September 1994, Dick was waiting for Kory to come see and talk with him but she never showed up as she didn't want Dick confusing things after thinking her life is no longer on Earth even though she still loves him more than he knows. The whole thing reminds me of Marvel's former Editor in Chief Joe Quesada's written One Moment in Time story with Mary Jane leaves Peter which was supposed to explain what happened after One More Day when Peter and Mary Jane's marriage was undone by Mephisto and was apart for 11 years. Mary Jane was written to be weak and that she couldn't deal with Peter Parker being Spider-Man any more. I was afraid that Joe Quesada was going to come up with a retcon that Mary Jane cheated on Peter with her ex-boyfriend Bruce the night before Peter and Mary Jane got married. A few months ago, Nick Spencer brought Peter and Mary Jane back together as a couple in The Amazing Spider-Man issue #1. As a fan that created a facebook page for Peter and Mary Jane's relationship, that makes me very happy. During the period that Dick and Kory's relationship turned into a disaster in August 1993 and they completely ended in September 1994, Peter and Mary Jane had their own problems. Peter had sworn to Mary Jane that he would give up being Spider-Man for awhile and he went back on his word, and Mary Jane was upset about that. Peter was acting all neurotic with his sense of responsibility as Spider-Man, and Mary Jane was stressing out over Peter being Spider-Man and had a cigarette addiction. Her acting career was falling apart. In a comic book page, Mary Jane thinks that Peter didn't come home last night, and she thinks that most wives worry about infidelity but Peter is Spider-Man - he could be dead. Liz kicked Peter and Mary Jane out of their loft. Peter's parents came back into his life, but they end up being androids. After he loses his fake parents, Peter is driven with rage and vengeance and pushes Mary Jane away. May ends up sick in the hospital, and Peter goes nuts that he webs himself up in a cocoon so he cannot be reached. This was heading up into the Death of Aunt May in Amazing Spider-Man issue #400 and the infamous Clone Saga that so many Spider-Man fans hated including me. The only things that I liked about it was Ben Reilly and Mary Jane demonstrating great loyalty and faithfulness as Peter's wife even when Peter was believed to be the clone to the point that she was willing to let Peter kill her when he was under the Jackal's programming which she helped him break. I read those comics when I was in my 20s in the 1990s. Like Dick and Kory, Peter and Mary Jane had their ups and downs with serious problems. There are no comic couples that have perfect relationships. Comic books have quite the soapy element to them. As a person that loves to watch soap operas on television, I actually enjoy that. I just don't care for the love triangles and my favorite characters killed off. When Mary Jane was killed off in an airplane accident in 1999, I couldn't bear reading Spider-Man comics any more.

The disastrous wedding and the breaking up of Dick and Kory's relationship were the results of Batman office taking Dick back from the Titan's office and not having any control of Kory. Before Dick was taken from the Titans office, there was an original plan of a Nightwing mini-series that establishes Dick's greatness among the superhero community. It involved an alien invasion of Earth that included kidnapping Kory. Nightwing would go rescue Kory,he proposes marriage with her accepting,and they get a happy wedding. The Mirage stuff,Kory breaking up with Dick,and Dick's desperate marriage proposal seem to be events that were created to lead up to the disastrous wedding and their breakup. Seeing that Batman office has been degrading Kory into Dick's lustful fling while pushing Barbara as Dick's one true love, I am glad that Batman office doesn't have control of Kory. She may have gotten the Jean Grey treatment. Jean Grey was killed off and stayed dead for a long time in order to push a Scott Summers (Cyclops)/Emma Frost relationship which has resulted in a strong split of Scott relationship fans between Scott/Jean and Scott/Emma just like there is a strong split of Dick relationship fans between Dick/Kory and Dick/Barbara (Batgirl,Oracle).

Dick and Kory did have interactions in the comics after they were broken up. Their relationship was acknowledged in some way or another. In 1996, There was an Else-world comic book mini-series, Kingdom Come that showed Dick and Kory had a daughter named Mar'i who became the superhero, Nightstar. In February 1999, Kingdom Come was followed by the sequel, The Kingdom that had Nightstar in it. In that same month, The Kingdom: Nightstar was released. In the 1999 JLA Titans three issue comic miniseries published from December 1998 to February 1999, Dick and Kory met again for the first time since Kory left Dick to go back to Tamaran when she felt that she no longer belonged on Earth after the attack by Trigon-possessed Raven at their wedding. They re-connected as friends that care about each other.

They were on the same team in The Titans comic book series that was first published on March 1999. Kory ended up leaving the Team to defend her Tamaranean people. She and Dick said goodbye to each other ,and that included them telling each other that they love each other.

When the Teen Titans cartoon first aired on July 2003, The Teen Titans, Volume 3 comic series came out the same month. Kory was a mentor to the Teen Titans in the comic book. She and Dick had interactions in the comic. There was also a comic book series, The Outsiders comic book series that was first released on August 2003. Dick and Kory were fellow members on the Outsiders team, and they had sex in that comic book series that was written by Judd Winick. He was also the writer of the Titan series first published on June 2008 that had Dick and Kory have sex with each other while under the influence of Trigon's child, Lust and then followed by a swimming pool conversation with Kory asking Dick if he loves her in a forever way that they don't need to find excuses with Dick responding with "No." This was after the Teen Titan cartoon show stopped airing. I wondered if this was an attempt to put a deep dagger into the hearts of Dick/Kory fans.

Dick and Kory didn't have any lustful sex outside of love under any other writers. Judd Winick is the same writer that had Selina Kyle (Catwoman) and Bruce Wayne (Batman) have sex on a roof top with their costumes on and without Catwoman knowing Batman's secret identity in the New52 Catwoman comic issues #1 and 2. He was degrading their love into lust. Of course, a lot of Catwoman and Batman fans were upset about the sex because they felt that both were totally out of character as individuals. I was one of them.

Dick and Kory had interactions all the way up to the Teen Titans cartoon series and always had a big fan base that were given ship teases. I definitely wouldn't limit the fan base just to people that grew up watching the Teen Titans cartoons from 2003 to 2007. I am definitely not one of them. I am not even one of the fans that became a fan during the time that they were each other's love interest from 1980 to 1994. I didn't read Teen Titans comics at the time.

I was a Dick/Barbara fan until less than a month ago. I became a Dick/Barbara fan in the late 90s because of the Batman: Animated series. My first exposure to Barbara Gordon/Batgirl was in the New Adventures of Batman and Robin cartoon show in the 1970s when I was a little kid. I am almost 47 years old. The only being that was shown to have a crush on Batgirl in that 1970s Batman/Robin cartoon show was Bat-Mite. I also watched the 1960s Batman TV show and Batman/Robin cartoon series. In the former, there was no romantic interaction between Dick (played by Dick Ward) and Barbara (Yvonne Craig). Barbara was a bit older than Dick in all the shows that I watched before Batman: The Animated series. I was surprised to see a Batgirl and Robin being around the same age, know each other's secret identity and being love interests with each other. I actually liked it. I was a Dick/Barbara fan to the point that I voted for Batgirl - Barbara instead of Koriand'r - Starfire without knowing any comic book history about Kory in a Dick Grayson's True Love poll in CBR's Batman forum that was created. After reading the comics about Kory and her history with Dick, I now regret my vote and wish that I had voted for Kory instead of Barbara.

I became a Dick/Kory fan and now prefer Dick with Kory instead of Barbara less than a month ago after watching Teen Titans: Judas Contract and reading many of the New Teen Titans, Tales of the Teen Titans, and Titans comics from 1980s to 1990s. I have read all of them now. That's how much that I enjoyed reading the New Teen Titans including especially Dick and Kory's romantic relationship and Kory and Donna's sisterly friendship. My favorite Titan of all is now Kory. I actually enjoyed the Dick/Kory romantic relationship because of Kory more than Dick. I really like Kory's character as the alien warrior princess that went through 5 or 6 years of slavery and still has a big heart and becomes a superhero with a motivation to save others from the great emotional and physical pain that she went through as a slave. The Teen Titans cartoon doesn't really touch on any of that, and I wasn't really a fan of that cartoon because of how the Teen Titans were presented more as comedy and with ridiculous Looney Toon- like scenes. They didn't live with civilian identities nor even called each other by their real names. They weren't presented in a serious way like the animated universe of the Batman: Animated Series. I felt like I was too old to be watching those cartoons even though I like cartoons as an adult that is now almost 47 years old. Therefore, I definitely did not become a Teen Titan and Dick/Kory fan because of the Teen Titan cartoons. However, I do understand that the Teen Titan cartoon series helped increase the popularity and iconic status of Dick/Kory which they always had. Robin and Starfire do look cute together in the cartoon series. I am grateful for the cartoon series after recently becoming a Dick/Kory fan. I really liked how Dick and Kory's relationship was presented in Teen Titans: Judas Contract. They had great chemistry with each other, and I would like to see more of their relationship in more DC animated movies that includes a happy wedding that was originally planned for them in the comics.

As for the new upcoming, Titans show

UGH!!!!! (face slap to the forehead and shaking head side ways)

but going to watch it and wish it success

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#104 Edited by Glaucus (569 posts) - - Show Bio

There is comic page where it shows what made Dick fall in love with Kory:

It wasn't Starfire's beauty that made me fall in love with her.....

It was her freedom!

I mean the freedom to feel at home with even her strongest emotions..

The one kind of freedom that Batman wouldn't allow.

That's what I was longing for--

And that's what Kory slowly taught me to embrace!

Their relationship and love was developed slowly and gradually 2 years in the Wolfman run, New Teen Titans. It took Kory getting kidnapped by Komand'r and the Gordanians and taken to the Citadel and her looking like she was dead after being beaten and tortured for Dick to admit his romantic love feelings for Kory and they got into a relationship soon after that.

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#105 Posted by arlynsunalila (20 posts) - - Show Bio

who the fucks care when we know who's the hotter, prettier and superior girlfriend. fuck that ugly old retcon ginger batgirl bitch who only copied batman's cowl and outfit then pretends she's cool,

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#106 Posted by arlynsunalila (20 posts) - - Show Bio
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#107 Posted by arlynsunalila (20 posts) - - Show Bio
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it's starfire , dick doesn't love barbara anymore. he even straight up dumped her

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