So, finally, this new continuitie's Batman's biggest nightmare, just showed up for the first time ever on the present-day-timeline, in the last page of this weeks Batman and Robin Eternal, the villaness only known as "The Mother" comes face to face with Dick Grayson...

" Hello dick

So nice to see you again"

In a scale from 1 to 20, how screwed is Grayson?...i mean, if The Mother is this monster that the writters have been hyping to be, someone that Batman never told anyone about, someone that it's possibly even worse than Ra's All Ghul or The Joker, Dick better run.

5, she seems like the type that prefers to dole out exposition to the protagonist rather than punishment.

I hope we finally learn what she wants? Or at least what Dick has to do with it. Or the next chapter will cut right away and we will get nothing. It is good that she is finally there. I don't see them starting a physical fight but something will have to come out of this, perhaps a bit of manipulation.

Sounds about right

In my opinion, one of 2 things will happen:

- Dick will get beaten badly to hype The Mother even more.

Or

- They will stallemate, until Cass and Harper arrive, which would thn force The Mother to retreat, i think?.

Dick has been in big trouble since they decide use him in this serie. He is screwed, only used to build up other characters, first Cass then Jason and Tim and now the mother.

Nothing interesting about it. Or you think it will make any difference if the mother beats him badly instead of Cassandra this time?

I don't understand what you're saying.

Dick lost to Cass, so? last time i checked, Cass was above pretty much everyone, in close-combat, like-wise Batman would have received the same treatment if he was on Dick's place on issue 1.

Dick made Jason look bad on issue 3, Jason was about to kill Cass, and Dick just blocked Jason's attack to Cass, grabbed him, and told him to calm down, which he did.

And Tim just punched Dick once, which Dick let him, because Tim was angry and Dick recognised that he went too far, so he let Tim get his frustration out, no big deal...besides, everyone knows that Dick is the best fighter out of all of the Robins and former-Robins, no need to stomp Tim to prove it, specially when Tim had the reason on his side.

The Mother is a whole other animal, though, and she could kill him, although i don't think she will, otherwise we would already know about it.

That's something I wouldn't be completely sure about in the new 52, Jason is hard contender for the title. Even if you ignore the RHatO: in Cass opinion Jason was the hand and Dick the heart, Damian attacked Jason in direct battle when he wanted to prove that he is the best and in the last Batman/Superman Clark gave him the job as "Weapons Master and Drill Instructor".

@bat_girl_cc: I'm saying Batman and Robin Eternal is a mediocre story that can only way it can build up characters pulling others down.

The mother has to beat up Dick to be established as a threat just like Cassandra had to beat him down to be established as a competent fighter. Nevermind the whole thing was unnecessary from the beginning.

So of course the mother is going to beat him down and ridicule him, is what this books does.

I wish they would had called it something like "Batman introducing Cassandra Cain" and leave Dick out of it completely. The book is bad for him and I'm done with the bat family beating him down

Cassandra's the only one that has "beaten him down". As @bat_girl_cc then pointed out neither Jason or Tim has done this, nor have Stephanie, Barbara, or Harper (All of whom are part of the Bat Family) So one person beating Grayson hardly counts as the family doing so. Pretty sure that's the part of your comment that was being referred to, not you thinking it's a mediocre story overall, which is fine.

@nathaniel_christopher: I'm pretty sure Tim punched him the past issue, Jason punched him in Grayson, Bruce did it in Batman... Dick met Stephanie and Harper 5 min ago, not really familly, neither is Barbara unless Dick, and Jason (and Bruce and Tim) are into incest.

In B&R eternal Dick is utterly incompetent because everybody else has to look good, the mother is going to clean the floor with him. Not sure how anyone that like Dick's character can enjoy this take on him, but if you like that he screwed constantly is the book for you.

Wait, so punching someone is "beating" them now? (Guess Dick beat Bruce during Batman Fugitive when he socked him in the jaw) lol that's ridiculous. As has already been explained to you, and it was obvious in the issues, Tim punching Dick was out of anger and not part of any fight. Jason punched him for the exact same reason. In neither instance did Dick make any attempt to dodge the hit, taking it specifically because he was aware that the person doing so had a right to be upset with him. (Which is one of the best things about Dick's character, he can admit when he's wrong) Bruce punched Dick in Batman specifically to get the Talon chip out of his mouth, and later he had plenty of time to take out any anger against Bruce when they fought and wrecked the Batcave, a greater feat than either Tim or Jason have against Bruce, and one which therefore makes Dick worthy of the highest level of respect. Barbara's a part of the Bat Family. That's a fact, hence her showing up in Bat Family events all the time, like Death of the Family. Same applies to Stephanie and Barbara, along with Alfred and Damian. Shouldn't really have to explain that the Bat Family consists of more than just Bruce and the Robins.

Dick's not treated as incompetent at all. Jason and Tim both clearly defer to him in terms of leadership in fact, as does everyone else.

You're overexaggerating, which isn't surprising since you seem to think that Dick ever getting punched for any reason amounts to someone "beating". (Heck, by that logic everyone in the Batman family is beaten all the time by a bunch of random, no-name mooks, and within their own books no less)

Like I said previously, I could get not liking the book or thinkign it's the best. I personally think it's been lackluster overall and that the Mother doesn't seem to be anything memorable down the line, but it's also not the worst thing i've ever read either.

Jason kicked Cassandras ass. And he is capable of kicking Nightwings, as shown on brothers in blood. Batman and Robin Eternal should just focus on giving Jason even more high tier feats.

You and I have very different definitions of that term

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Agreed, the gap between Dick and Jason its not as big now as it was before, but Dick its still considered the best fighter amoung the robins by the majority of people, i think.

Not only was it a standstill, but on issue 3 Dick stated that Cass didn't even tryed to beat them (Dick and Jason) she was just testing them to see if they were the ones that she seeked.

Besides, on issue 1 Dick stated that Cassandra's fighting-style should be lethal, it isn't because she holds-back, on issue 3 Cass and Jason started their fight with Cass speed-blitzing Jason (Jason had Cass at gun-point, and in the time that it takes him to do a finger movement, Cass went from being on her knees to be standing up and kicked him on his chest) but the importante part was that kick could have been lethal if Cass was a murderer, but she isn't, so she holds back.

@bat_girl_cc:

Not really. I didn't expect Dick win against Cassandra, she is unbeatable, that's her thing, she win fights. That was also what makes the fight so very stupid. No, what I hated was Dick saying crap like "I'm one of the best trained fighter..." That is bad writing and out of character. That got me mad. And 50 K for the for a book with "batman" and "Snyder" in the cover in it's 2 month is not that great and it doesn't make the story any less mediocre.

And what Cassandra learned in all those fights is that if she adds Dick, Jason and Tim she may end with a whole person. Awesome, good thing she gotta humiliated Dick for that, totally worth it. Not useless at all, just like her USB that didn't help anything.

When I say that what this books does is beat Dick down and ridicule him, is exactly I what mean. Dick is incompetent in this, they keep hammering that he feels unworthy, that he is insecure. Why would you think is just about Cassandra stomping him when you made a thread gleefully announcing how screwed he is?

I wish it was "Batman introducing Cassandra Cain" and leave Dick out of it completely, because is the most crowded book I have even seen. And it keeps pulling Dick down with not other purpose that EVERYBODY else looks good.

@bat_girl_cc: Okay, while my post was mostly a joke....Jason really did beat Cassandra on that situation. Cassandra destroyed Grayson while holding back, she wasn't even trying to harm him, let alone try to kill him. I don't think Jason could replicate that same feat. But the fact is, Jason went toe to toe with Cass, and the fight ending with him nearly killing her and Grayson needing to save her life.

The fight didn't just start with her on her knees and Jason putting a gun to her head. She showed up and attacked Jason first. He then fought here for 8 minutes (read the time stamps) ending with her on her knees and him with a gun to her head. Then Grayson calls to warn Jason about Cassandra. What we don't know is what he was warning Jason about. Grayson knew that Cassandra wasn't evil, so he could have been calling to tell Jason not to kill her, rather then actually warning Jason of her. Then when Jason is not even paying attention, he's on the phone, Cassandra kicks the gun out of his hand. Then at this point its arguable that Cassandra stopped holding back, they exchange a few more attacks, but Jason was just about to gut her open, and she needed Grayson to save her....arguably twice.

Now before anybody freaks out, Jason went toe to toe with Cassandra because of his skill combined with his gear, I am doubtful he would win on pure H2H.

But many people still have the pre flashpoint stuff in their heads and don't read/like Jasons new 52 stuff. Based on the comics it's hard to say sine they didn't fought in the new 52 and there was also no clear statement about who is better. I would see Jason as a little bit better, since he is more presented as a fighter than Dick. But there is no clear proof.

Ok, so you're mad about what Dick said, you think that it was bad writting and i have seen tons of people saying that exact same thing, if that's your concern regarding their fight, then it makes sense, but please don't tell me that it didn't made sense, when Dick himself explained it on issue 3...also i pointed out of good its selling because you have a opinion about the quality of the book and thats fine, but its your own opinion, i for one don't agree, and neither do tons of other people, if you read issues 6 and 7, you would have a different opinion.

Cassandra didn't reduced anyone there, she was merely pointing out their stronger areas.

If by incompetent, you mean the flashbacks, so far they have shown Dick as very capable, and with Batman trusting him, Dick is the one who doesn't belive in his worth because at that point he was insecure, which makes sense, he was just a normal kid doing extraordinary things, i mean normal when compared to Cass or Damian.

I made this thread because next weednsday, Dick is going up against what its quite possibly Batman's most dangerous rogue in this new continuity, and i felt like it was big, so i got excited, looks like you don't feel that way, which its fine, you probably enjoy more Grayson, on which Dick is unstoppable, a title on which Dick is capabe of performing feats such as punching down Midnighter while holding a child on his other arm, doing well against a being that had the justice league members powers and abillities, etc, but hey, for each its own.

What you fail to realize, is that this book isn't about Cassandra, although she's the most interesting character in it (thank you very much for noting it) this whole series its about Dick Grayson! it has been stated by every single main writter and artist on this title...this its pretty much Dick Grayson's story! you see, i case you haven't noted yet every flash-back has been about him and its probably the whole reason for there even being flashbacks, what happens in the present he's either front and center or its related to him somehow...the first appearence of The Mother had him at front and center of it, Cass and Haper arenear by but thei're clearly the back-up...its all about him.

1) Jason did much better against Cass than Dick did, true, although Cass wasn't really trying against either, it was stated on issue 3...Cass apparently did needed saving, but i don't kown if it was because she couldn't have defended herself, or because she refused to, because as Dick's said Cassandra fights with a lethal style, maybe she could have killed Jason on the spot but she would rather die than to do that, because she probably doesn't see her life as being mmore precious than other people's lives, at least, pre-flahpoint Cass didn't.

2) The majority of their fight was off-panel, trying to argue how things went down makes no sense because its baselless assumption, Cass could be winning and then got dropped in the end, or Jason dominated the whole time, or Jason just surprised Cass, etc, we don't know.

3) Jason wasn't distracted, he had his cell in one hand right in front of him and Cass, and he was staring at Cass the whole time while talking to Dick, and in the panel before Cass kicking Jason on his chest, we see Cass on her knees and Jason finishing what he was saying to Dick, Cass didn't surprised him otherwise the writter would have Jason's sentence being cut short which didn't happened, she's just faster than him.

4) Without his gear, even holding-back Cass would have dominated him with mid-difficulty.

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@allstarsuperman said:

Jason kicked Cassandras ass. And he is capable of kicking Nightwings, as shown on brothers in blood. Batman and Robin Eternal should just focus on giving Jason even more high tier feats.

You and I have very different definitions of that term

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Leave it to ASS to exaggerate a Jason Todd showing,the only thing Jason accomplished was grabbing her by the throat which is what Dick accomplished as well despite being injured and getting attacked while driving. Writers should focus on getting Jason's costume right first.

As for Jason vs Nightwing the only fair fight between them that actually ended with one of them losing was in BTFC and Jason lost that one.

I don't think Batman and Robin: Eternal has been bad for Dick Grayson, I mean Grayson being written down to make others look good is a staple of Nightwing but I think it's exaggerated here. I think the real victim of Batman and Robin: Eternal is Stephane Brown, in the first two issues, it seemed as though she was going to really break out in this book, but since then nothing. Also, despite the writers efforts, I still don't care about Tim Drake.

I'm still of the belief that Jason Todd should not be in Batman and Robin: Eternal.

I don't think Batman and Robin Eternal has done any harm to Dick's character at all, or either of the other two Robins for that matter.

So 3 main characters of this series are duds? lol. They're also introducing Azrael if the latest issue is any indication.

Why?

Unlike Batman Eternal, but they could give Jason and Tim really little bit more screen time and action.

They could, but it was also clearly billed as being Dick Grayson's story over anyone else's, with even the flashbacks focusing on his time as Bruce's partner and not anyone else's. So i'm not really surprised that Jason and Tim aren't getting that much coverage (Though I wish to Heaven and back that they'd just drop Harper, as she's a waste of panels that could be going to Jason and Tim)

@nathaniel_christopher: I agree on your assessment of Harper.

@vitacura I would just like to hear your opinion, on issue 8, where Dick just saved Cassandra, (for the second time in 8 issues), Cass who apparently went from someone that can take out 50 people in 2 seconds (pre-flashpoint Cass) to someone that can't even take care of a small group of bailarinas by herself? lol, not to mention that she got tagged in a 1-on-1 fight against cannon-fodder, and then overwhelmed and beat up by mind controlled bailarinas, then Dick came in to save the day.

I hope it's alright if I answer too? If not just ignore this.

I think they took Cassandra's skills down a notion but you have to mind that the Ballerina against which Cassandra lost (the others were no match for her) was trained by the same people and was also a designer human. I also disagree that Dick saved Harper and Cass, he thought they were in danger but it certainly did not look as if they were to me as the reader.

With two times you probably meant Jason attacking Cass? That seemed more as if Dick was trying to keep Jason alive.

I guess that its self-assumed that the bailarina that gave Cass a hard time was one of Mother's children, and also she must have had some kind of special training to fight like that, although we have no proof of it, but she's featless, we have no clue about her skill-set, and its juts annoying really that a character that on the Pre-Flashpoint continuity, easly solo'ed a group of terrorist's on Batgirl #39 - Black Wind, toke out 50 people in 2 seconds on Batgirl #49 - Down Among the Dead Men, solo'ed the Chinese Military on Batman and the Outsiders #8 - The Hard Way, and on the Post-Flashpoint continuity, she can't even beat a bunch of bailarinas by herself, get overwhelmed, beat up, and needs saving, lol, and i hear people claiming that Cass has been overpowered in this series, i just feel like laughing, then i remembre of how good she used to be, and i feel like crying.

Well, i'm kinda divided on that one, in one hand on issue 3 Dick stated that Cass was holding back alot on both fights against the former robins, but Cassandra's facial expression when Jason was about to apparently kill her, says a different story, the only reasonable explanation i find for that one its Cass refusing to kill Jason because she must have saw goodness in him, and letting him kill her, since that in Pre-Flashpoint continuity, Cass stated that she didn't saw her life as being more precious than the other people's lives.

Cass still fought without problem against anyone in the room, it was Harper chickening out and constantly calling for help. Cass had a smile on her face and practically flew through the air in the greatest of ease. She only got angry when Sarangarel (the ballerina) attacked Harper and had a serious fight with her who had been said to be a child of mother in #7 and not only that she is on Cass's list, so: No normal child. It's the reason why the Ballerinas "mother" could attack her with an actual result and she stood up seconds after that again. And here now comes the first and only time that she is shown weak in one panel which was uncharacteristic but not without complete lack of reason. She was injured and Mother told Dick that those were all her children/designer humans.

I can see what you mean with Cass's expression and the scene is much more unclear than I remembered.What you said about her not seeing her own live as more worthy could apply here and the panel has Dick also already calling for Jason so she probably held back to look more unthreatening, knowing that the others were already there. We can't know how the scene would have gone on but they should have made clear that Cass would have owned Jason.

Have her over worldly abilities been taken down a notch? From what we have seen so far probably but we don't know how good Sarangarel really was, she did not fight anyone else.and we also don't know how her fight against Jason would have ended and he owned Dick. She also cut of Orphans/David Cain's hand.

I know that the bailarinas were with The Mother, my point is how good fighters they are its speculation, we have no clue, although its self-assumed that they are, specially the main one, David Cain and Sarangarel are both featless, plus Cas gets tagged way too often, for someone that used to be nearly untouchable in pre-flashpoint, even characters like Batman and Deathstroke would be lucky to tagg her once in a entire fight against her...now, Dick, Jason, The Orphan, Sarabagarel, a bunch of bailarinas, etc, have all tagged her, seems like everyone can do it, now.

I'm not saying that she isn't good or impressive, because she is, and she easly tops anything that the DC post-flashpoint street-level has to offer, but so far she hasn't proved to be able to hold a candle to old Cass, which makes me sad...hopefully she will start to get feats more accordingly to who she's supposed to be, and fast, if we are to belive that this Cass its here to replace the old one and that she can actually do it.

Quick question...did you say Jason owned Dick or did I misread that?

I forgot the "s" I meant Cass :)

Ok cool. I was wondering because Dick sort of punked Jason out during the Cass fight and that was the only real "fight" they(Hood and Grayson) had in the series. I was confused. I love this series so far and can't wait to see how it all plays out.

Just readed issue 11, and it was awesome! Cassandra Cain's oficial Post-Flashpoint back-story, it's different from the original but its still super-bada$$, vintage Cass!

They did a good enough job keeping the meat of the original origin, while changing it for the New 52. I've already seen one person complain about it, but the only real thing of note that was changed is that the person Cass killed as part of her final trial or whatever clearly isn't going to just be some random thug.

At least they made her older his time, and you don't see her as a little girl in a pink dress killing a full grown man with her bare hands.

Btw. was there any indication about how old Cass is supposed to be and when this final trial happened?

Yeah, she's not as awesome as she once was, but none of this new universe is as awesome as the previous was.

Nope, but according to the solicitations it will be revealled on issue 13.