Who is the smartest Character in DCU

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#51 Posted by ViperKing (424 posts) - - Show Bio

@papinacho:

Thinking at light-speed does not equal to intelligence. In theory, it sounds excellent. Since he thinks at light-speed, he can gather intelligence faster than the most advanced computers in DC universe. Unfortunately, stats on a sheet don't mean anything if the stats aren't applied to and shown by the character. For example, in theory, Killer Croc should be able to lift more than ten tons and take shotgun blasts to the face but loses to Harvey Dent and various policemen. When has Superman ever demonstrated genius-level intelligence on par with Lex Luthor? If Superman was more intelligent than Lex Luthor, Lex Luthor wouldn't be a challenge to Superman. It's the same concept with the Flash. If Flash is more intelligent than Lex Luthor, he could solve every crime easily, cure ever disease ever, and stop millions of deaths. In fact, since he reacts in septoseconds, why doesn't he stop crime in general? The fact is that this is the comic industry and that stats are thrown around for the purpose of sales. Without any proof that Superman and the Flash are more intelligent than Lex Luthor, then Lex Luthor clearly demonstrates a superior intellect over Superman and the Flash.

In Red Son, Lex Luthor is stated to be a 9th level intellect. In the New 52, Jor-El is stated to be an 8th level intellect. Jor-El was possibly the most intelligent Kryptonian in a far more advanced civilization. Also, keep in mind that Jor-El has never had the ability to think at light-speed since Krypton has a red sun.

As for my second question, if you want to have an unjustified opinion, you can throw yourself a party. At the end of the day, you haven't given a single reason why Batman is mentioned alongside Lex Luthor, probably the most intelligent human in DC history. In fact, he's the only human beings like Darkseid and Brainiac even bother to deal with.

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#52 Posted by PapiNacho (3396 posts) - - Show Bio

@viperking: What exactly would you define intelligence then my reptilian friend? Feats are great and all but we aren't in the battle forums, there aren't explicit rules defining they are the end all be all. Why don't I consider them and end all be all you ask? Well because continuity is a tricky mistress, ever changing in her desires and truly it ends up leading to people doing things like combining Red Son and New 52 feat to derive a conclusion.Why don't the Flash and Superman solve all the world's problems? Plot and it isn't in their characters to do so. That would be like asking why Lex Luthor hasn't killed Superman when the kryptonian is always reactionary and Lex is the "smartest" man in the world. Like you said, they win on paper and that was my entire point. Now on to the second point, I may not have stated why in fact without any reasonable doubt is Batman the second smartest man in the planet, but you didn't actually dispute the notion, rather you gave more proof as to why Lex Luthor was number. Flawed proof given that Batman has dealt with and outsmarted Darkseid in many an occasion (continuty, yay!) but I suppose that is also irrelevant to our topic.

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#54 Posted by ThepowerofShazam (68 posts) - - Show Bio

Mr. mind, seeing that lex luthor turned to him to take control of the worlds mightiest mortal in kingdom come. His intelligence far exceeds anyones maybe besides brainiac

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#55 Posted by Superguy1591 (7539 posts) - - Show Bio

Lex is the smartest man in the DC Universe, that is what he was created to be. Mr. Terrific was created to be the third smartest man on Earth. No human has ever been written to be the second smartest.

That's as far as DC goes in terms of rankings. No, Batman hasn't ever been considered the second smartest man on Earth so you can't attribute him that title.

As far as the Universe, looking at Superman's rouge gallery will show you some of the smartest beings in the universe. Brainiac, Darkseid, Myxy is omniscient to a certain degree as well.

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#57 Edited by ViperKing (424 posts) - - Show Bio

@papinacho:

Intelligence is the capacity for learning, understanding, and applying knowledge. When has Superman ever demonstrated this capacity to be on par with Lex Luthor? Superman only thinks at light-speed when he does but also doesn't, for the most part. Why is that, you might ask? It's because nobody wants to read anything about a Superman that has no legitimate challenges. Why does he take hits from vastly slower opponents? His supposed "super-intelligence" is just stat on a sheet.Therefore, he only demonstrates the ability to think at light-speed at certain times, depending on the writer. Even so, I've never seen Superman show that his intelligence is on par with Lex Luthor. Again, I'm saying that stats on a sheet are simply stats on a sheet. For example, it is only believable for the Flash to knock out Superman (with the IMP and speed-steal) if he has knocked out threats with Superman-level durability and stolen speed from speedsters before. Since he has demonstrated the ability to do both, it is agreed that Flash can defeat Superman via speed-steal and IMP. It's the same with intelligence. Since Lex Luthor has demonstrated how intelligent he is, we can see that he is probably the most intelligent human alive. Superman has rarely, if ever, demonstrated intelligence on par with Lex Luthor. Again, in theory, it sounds great but theories are simply theories. Based on stats, Killer Croc should easily defeat Bane with Venom. But yet, Killer Croc loses to mere police officers in the comics. Winning on paper isn't really winning at all. If we are going to base this on theories, Superman and Flash should have solved all of mankind's problems in minutes. Again, why doesn't this happen? It is because theories aren't feats and neither have ever demonstrated Lex Luthor's level of intelligence..

I was saying that Lex Luthor has demonstrated his ability to keep up and surpass Jor-El in the area of intelligence. He's built suits able to take hits from Superman, murdered over 73,000 Kryptonians, and blown up an entire planet. Lex Luthor can't kill Superman because he's the most iconic member of the DC industry and him dead and being "resurrected" over and over again will reduce long-term sales.

You completely misinterpret what I meant. I meant that Darkseid has gone to request Lex Luthor's services, the only human ever to have that honor. Batman only "deals" with Darkseid when he's with the Justice League and gets flicked away like an ant every time. Again, I'm asking for evidence that Batman has shown intelligence on par with Lex Luthor when Lex has cured cancer over a lunchbreak.

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#58 Posted by sinestro_GL (3651 posts) - - Show Bio

Technically, Martian Manhunter could read everyone's thought and inherit their knowledge.

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#59 Posted by herrweis (497 posts) - - Show Bio

Humans..ray palmer,prof.ivo,terry holt,sivanna,t.o. morrow,will magnus,lex luthor,batman,john irons,vic stone

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#60 Posted by PapiNacho (3396 posts) - - Show Bio

@viperking: I was debating whether or not I should throw myself a party, but I am sick so what the heck. I'm going to address first your point about my opinion on Batman being the second smartest human being in the DCU being baseless, because it is simple to answer. You are correct I haven't based this on any "feas" I gleamed from reading comic books because I didn't have to; nobody has proven that he isn't, least of all you. Let me illuminate you as to why you have failed to accomplish this feat. And I am operating under the assumption that "feats" in the comic books are all that matter here which is not really the case:

1. It doesn't matter whether Batman is or isn't on par with Luthor, I stated he was the second smartest human being not the first. What my statement meant is that if you wanted to prove I had a wrong opinion and I chose to operate under your premises your argument would have to be centered about other characters like Mr. Terrific, not Lex Luthor.

2. Nope Darkseid has never asked for help from Lext Luthor. What you ask, how is this possible? Well they have never interacted in the post-Flashpoint universe and apropos his one interaction with Brainiac while acknowledging his place as the smartest human being left far from an impression of mutual respect. Rather it was Lex Luthor who was treated as an "ant".

3.Now lets operate under the assumption that we are in fact not talking about the post-Flashpoint universe because for some reason "New 52" doesn't count (not saying you are one of those whiners, but there are a lot of whiners). You are incorrect about Batman getting flicked like an ant every time he has come up against Darkseid,he outsmarted him twice: once in S/B and once in Final Crisis. These "feats" are in my incredibly unsubstantiated opinion, (because that is in fact what distinguishes an opinion from fact) much more impressive.

Now back on to the Superman vs Lex Luthor: You just straight up admitted I am right. "Intelligence is the capacity for learning, understanding, and applying knowledge." Now this sentence doesn't refer to the actual learning, understanding or applying of knowledge but rather the capacity. What this means is that it doesn't matter that Superman only thinks in light speed when he does because he has the capacity to always do so. However, lets pretend that I am incorrect for the sake of addressing your next points about me using "facts-on-a-sheet" to make "theories." Here is the point I really want to stress because I feel at the end of the day we place different values in thins and are inherently incapable of agreeing in this subject:"feats" are not "facts". Comic book stories are modern myths and as such while core principles might remain the same, details will vary by interpretation. There is no reason why anyone should constrain their own personal interpretations to the past. So yes "theories" are simply "theories" but that's okay because there are no data in comic books, they're myths. Theories are all we have.

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#61 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

For human beings? Lex Luthor.

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#62 Posted by ViperKing (424 posts) - - Show Bio

@papinacho:

I can see that since you answered an entire week after my post.

First of all, let's talk about Batman. You have the burden of proof, so therefore, you should show how Batman is the second most intelligent human being. You haven't shown anything except argue semantics. Since you're not willing to show any evidence of Batman being intelligent, I will show you that several people are more intelligent than Batman. My point was that if Batman was the second most intelligent character in the DC universe, his intelligence would be somewhere around Lex Luthor's. For example, Ray Palmer is definitely more intelligent than Batman. He created a matter-compression belt that allowed him to shrink to sub-atomic levels as he maintained his mass. He found limitless applications for this including gliding on air currents to simulate flight, riding on phone signals for handheld-enabled transportation, and rearranging atoms into Kryptonite in Superman's bloodstream. Do you want another person "smarter" than Batman? Mr. Terrific has fourteen Ph.D.'s, is a self-made millionaire, and learned the theory of time and space continuum by the age of six. He defeated both Black Canary and Green Lantern at the same time in chess, blindfolded. Another character that is smarter than Batman? T.O. Morrow. He's created Red Tornado, Red Inferno, and Red Volcano, three insanely powerful androids. In fact, he's created an artificial soul before. You can go ahead and tell me when Batman creates a soul, okay? If you want more names, I can give them to you. It's just all three characters have proven their intelligence is on par with Lex Luthor, even though they are less featured, especially post-Crisis, and therefore have less feats. How about you show me when Batman has shown to be on these characters' levels of intellect, and I'll worry about what the premises of my argument are.

Well, first off, I never said the post-Flashpoint universe didn't count. Since this isn't the battle forums, there is no need to assume we are talking about the New 52's versions of the character. I'm currently talking about the post-Crisis versions of both Lex Luthor and Superman, especially since you've previously used instances of Batman supposedly "outsmarting" Darkseid. I would advise you not to be a hypocrite. New 52 versions of the character both count but I'm not including them because their numbers of feats are comparatively small compared to post-Crisis versions. Well, even if Batman activating the Hell-Spores and threatening to use them is "outsmarting" Darkseid, he still was beaten like an "ant." Also, that feat was plot-induced stupidity, at best. Darkseid, especially at full heath, easily reacts in nanoseconds and therefore could have killed him instantly, before Batman even moved. The feat is from Jeph Loeb, who thinks Batman can one-shot Lady Shiva, defeat Solomon Grundy easily without any prep, Superman can beat Mongul easily in a minute, and that both of them can apparently take down every villain in DC, with no prep-time, no back-up, and no idea who is actually attacking them. Other instances include Superman taking Power Girl, Captain Atom, John Stewart, and Starfire at the same time, while Batman deals with Major Force, Black Lightning, and Katana on his own. Plus, Jeph Loeb apparently thinks Supergirl and Superman can withstand multiple blasts of the Omega Beam. He's a crappy Superman writer and turned Darkseid into almost a complete joke. The other instance in Final Crisis, was Batman shooting Darkseid with a radion bullet, after he had a brutal, life-threatening fight with Orion. Even then, Darkseid still used his Omega beams on him, having him travel through time so that he would destroy the world when he returned to the present since he would be carrying massive amounts of energy with him. Even in complete plot-induced stupidity (Batman has never used guns, Darkseid, even after life-threatening fights should easily dodge bullets, etc, etc.), Darkseid still "defeated" Batman by turning Batman's own "games" against him.

In Superman: The Black Ring, Lex Luthor outhacks Braniac and snaps his neck in half. The New 52, though accepted, has not preserved many post-Crisis facts. He is also shown being summoned by Darkseid, you can read the comic for yourself. In theory. Superman is able to think and process information much faster than Lex Luthor, thus his potential for intelligence is much higher, however Lex Luthor is still more intelligent in the sense that the amount of information he knows (and what he can commit to memory) is much greater than Superman. Therefore, Lex Luthor is more intelligent than Superman. If you can show me Superman demonstrating intellect on Lex Luthor's level, you have won this debate. The problem is that you have not done so. Killer Croc's stats are that he should be able to lift five to ten tons. There are few feats to support this just like there are few (if any) feats to show Superman is more intelligent than Lex Luthor. Superman nor the Flash, have never shown intellect on Lex Luthor's level. Jor-El doesn't have Superman's light-speed abilities but even then, Lex Luthor has shown he is more intelligent. If thinking at light-speed equaled to being intelligent, then all speedsters would be more intelligent than Lex Luthor, one of the most intelligent beings in the universe. Intelligence is showing how much one can learn, understand, and apply. When has Superman shown to learn, understand, and apply knowledge on Lex Luthor's level? He hasn't, so therefore my point stands.

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#63 Posted by sinestro_GL (3651 posts) - - Show Bio
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#64 Edited by PapiNacho (3396 posts) - - Show Bio

@papinacho:

I can see that since you answered an entire week after my post.

First of all, let's talk about Batman. You have the burden of proof, so therefore, you should show how Batman is the second most intelligent human being.

I disagree, if I was to prove this, I would have to systematically compare Batman to every other DCU character sans Luthor. This is partially the reason why I initially qualified my statement as an opinion and urged you to disprove me.

You haven't shown anything except argue semantics.

Semantics are important, since this aren't the battle boards and you are again trying to disprove me.

Since you're not willing to show any evidence of Batman being intelligent, I will show you that several people are more intelligent than Batman. My point was that if Batman was the second most intelligent character in the DC universe, his intelligence would be somewhere around Lex Luthor's.

Understandable, but not necessarily true.

For example, Ray Palmer is definitely more intelligent than Batman. He created a matter-compression belt that allowed him to shrink to sub-atomic levels as he maintained his mass. He found limitless applications for this including gliding on air currents to simulate flight, riding on phone signals for handheld-enabled transportation, and rearranging atoms into Kryptonite in Superman's bloodstream. Do you want another person "smarter" than Batman? Mr. Terrific has fourteen Ph.D.'s, is a self-made millionaire, and learned the theory of time and space continuum by the age of six. He defeated both Black Canary and Green Lantern at the same time in chess, blindfolded. Another character that is smarter than Batman? T.O. Morrow. He's created Red Tornado, Red Inferno, and Red Volcano, three insanely powerful androids. In fact, he's created an artificial soul before. You can go ahead and tell me when Batman creates a soul, okay? If you want more names, I can give them to you. It's just all three characters have proven their intelligence is on par with Lex Luthor, even though they are less featured, especially post-Crisis, and therefore have less feats. How about you show me when Batman has shown to be on these characters' levels of intellect, and I'll worry about what the premises of my argument are.

Going off my limited knowledge of Professor Ivo (mostly skimming through the CV site), he is an expert in cybernetics and biology only. T.O Morrow is even more limited in his scope being only proficient with technology. Batman is not only highly proficient with technology (hacking into Apocalyptian weapons of mass destruction, creating the insider suit, hacking all of Gotham city including Oracle, hacking previously unmet into Manhunters, figuring out how to use Zeta beam technology, built his own teleporter, creating internet 3.0 etc.), biology and chemistry but is also accomplished in other non-scientific fields like criminal psychology, deduction, finance, marketing, Spanish, French, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, and Germans. He has learnt and mastered 127 martial arts, which doesn't initially seem like it has anything to do with intelligence, but as demonstrated in the Dark Knight Returns (admissible, since as you point out this isn't the battle forums) that means at any given combat position he has around seven alternative combat options that his mind processes through and decides from in the span of a few seconds. Also, he manage to create and alternative personality in his brain with selective knowledge, has total recall and straight up taught himself to lip read, if that doesn't show superior brain usage and capacity I don't know what does.He is also approached by Superman (who obviously knows Lex Luthor) in Action Comics, who states that he always "seems to be the smartest guy in the room". As for Mr. Terrific, he has stated that he is the third smartest man in the world, which immediately disqualifies him from being number two, though he comes close.

Well, first off, I never said the post-Flashpoint universe didn't count. Since this isn't the battle forums, there is no need to assume we are talking about the New 52's versions of the character. I'm currently talking about the post-Crisis versions of both Lex Luthor and Superman, especially since you've previously used instances of Batman supposedly "outsmarting" Darkseid. I would advise you not to be a hypocrite. New 52 versions of the character both count but I'm not including them because their numbers of feats are comparatively small compared to post-Crisis versions. Well, even if Batman activating the Hell-Spores and threatening to use them is "outsmarting" Darkseid, he still was beaten like an "ant." Also, that feat was plot-induced stupidity, at best. Darkseid, especially at full heath, easily reacts in nanoseconds and therefore could have killed him instantly, before Batman even moved. The feat is from Jeph Loeb, who thinks Batman can one-shot Lady Shiva, defeat Solomon Grundy easily without any prep, Superman can beat Mongul easily in a minute, and that both of them can apparently take down every villain in DC, with no prep-time, no back-up, and no idea who is actually attacking them. Other instances include Superman taking Power Girl, Captain Atom, John Stewart, and Starfire at the same time, while Batman deals with Major Force, Black Lightning, and Katana on his own. Plus, Jeph Loeb apparently thinks Supergirl and Superman can withstand multiple blasts of the Omega Beam. He's a crappy Superman writer and turned Darkseid into almost a complete joke.

I was kind of being hypocritical I apologize.The writer is irrelevant, the story counts. Batman being beaten like an "ant" is irrelevant (since Luthor or any human would presumably be equally physically overwhelmed) and subjective (since Darkseid himself admits his defeat).

The other instance in Final Crisis, was Batman shooting Darkseid with a radion bullet, after he had a brutal, life-threatening fight with Orion. Even then, Darkseid still used his Omega beams on him, having him travel through time so that he would destroy the world when he returned to the present since he would be carrying massive amounts of energy with him. Even in complete plot-induced stupidity (Batman has never used guns, Darkseid, even after life-threatening fights should easily dodge bullets, etc, etc.), Darkseid still "defeated" Batman by turning Batman's own "games" against him.

Possibly true, in all honesty I have never read Final Crisis as I have read it is Morrison at his most convoluted. I would argue that Batman was still not defeated as he survived even that.

In Superman: The Black Ring, Lex Luthor outhacks Braniac and snaps his neck in half. The New 52, though accepted, has not preserved many post-Crisis facts. He is also shown being summoned by Darkseid, you can read the comic for yourself. In theory. Superman is able to think and process information much faster than Lex Luthor, thus his potential for intelligence is much higher, however Lex Luthor is still more intelligent in the sense that the amount of information he knows (and what he can commit to memory) is much greater than Superman. Therefore, Lex Luthor is more intelligent than Superman. If you can show me Superman demonstrating intellect on Lex Luthor's level, you have won this debate. The problem is that you have not done so. Killer Croc's stats are that he should be able to lift five to ten tons. There are few feats to support this just like there are few (if any) feats to show Superman is more intelligent than Lex Luthor. Superman nor the Flash, have never shown intellect on Lex Luthor's level. Jor-El doesn't have Superman's light-speed abilities but even then, Lex Luthor has shown he is more intelligent. If thinking at light-speed equaled to being intelligent, then all speedsters would be more intelligent than Lex Luthor, one of the most intelligent beings in the universe. Intelligence is showing how much one can learn, understand, and apply. When has Superman shown to learn, understand, and apply knowledge on Lex Luthor's level? He hasn't, so therefore my point stands.

There is nothing Lex Luthor could do to prove he is smarter than Superman. His brain simply doesn't think in those levels. In the New 52 he has never shown any indication that he is smarter than Superman (other than his own arrogant statements). In Earth One he has not shown Superman's ability to destroy humans intellectually (solving equations in seconds that would take P.h.D's years, discovering mathematical financial tools). Some of the most quintessential Superman stories like Red Son and All-Star Superman made this even more exceedingly clear (Luthor loosing a chess match against a Superman clone, Superman straight up creating a Universe). Luthor just doesn't match up with most modern takes on the character except possibly in the pre-flashpoint , post-infinite crisis era and even then it was clear that the reason Superman was smarter than any human being could ever be. If intelligence is showing that he can (not would or have) learn, understand and apply, then Superman has done all that and more.

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#65 Edited by Jokerpoker (3144 posts) - - Show Bio

I would love to say The Joker, but there are some people a bit smarter than him.

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#66 Edited by ViperKing (424 posts) - - Show Bio

@papinacho:

First off, I never said anything about Professor Ivo. -_- I said something about Ray Palmer, the Atom. Of course, I believe I could make a case for Professor Ivo but I don't feel the need. I also never said Mr. Terrific was the second most intelligent human in the DC universe. I said he was smarter than Batman. Anyways, it doesn't matter what their genius is specifically in, T.O. Morrow created an artificial soul, when the brain he himself had created was sophisticated and "human" enough to discover free will, even though the concept had not been included in its original programming. That trumps anything Batman has ever done. Quality of the intellect over quantity of subjects of intellect. Mr. Terrific has performed emergency surgery after reading about the procedure in a medical textbook. In Brad Meltzer's JLA run,, Mr. Terrific noted that Batman had stolen some of his tech to improve his own. When he was only six, he already read and assimilated the works of Bohr, Einstein, Planck and Feyman. In fact, his equipment, which is much better than Batman's, was created all by himself. His T-Mask is molecularly bonded to his face and can appear and disappear at will. Through the use of nanotechnology, his mask also protects his face from chemicals and relays mental commands to his T-Spheres by detecting the subtle movements on his face. The mask works in conjunction with an earpiece to act as a communications system. His "T-Spheres", floating robotic spheres which can project holographic images, project laser grids, serve as cameras, link with outside data networks and orbital satellites, open electronic locks, allow him to fly by bearing his weight, explode with enough force to send Captain Marvel flying back, generate powerful electric charges, and strike as flying, projectile weapons. Now, his mask is able to scan the vicinity, and calculate how many people are coming at him, how far they are, how fast they are moving, and he can even see their temperature level. Nobody is going to be able to sneak on him. This is one of the many examples of creating something impressively close to Lex Luthor's inventions. Another example is that Mr. Terrific is absolutely invisible to technology, thanks to the T-Mask he created. Mr. Terrific can walk right through the base of OMAC's, the Brother Eye satellite. Machines can't hear him, see him, or record him. He's even taken over every radio and television station in the world. Batman hacking Gotham City's technology looks pretty pale, compared to that. If you want more feats for Mr. Terrific and his inventions, I can give them to you but I feel this has shown Mr. Terrific's intellectual superiority. Also, martial arts has nothing to do with intelligence. Martial arts is more of an emotional quotient than an intellect quotient. All your feats of Batman are pale, compared to feats of Mr. Terrific and other on-par geniuses.

Did you just say the writer is irrelevant? Have you even read Superman/Batman? Or did you just watch the movies and say "Batman is so intelligent!"? Superman is beating Mongul (who is stronger and more durable) in a minute, and holding off Power Girl (Superman-level being), Captain Atom (a being that can arguably defeat Superman, much less take him), John Stewart (one of the most experienced Green Lanterns), and Starfire (who defeated Donna Troy). Batman is holding off Major Force (Captain Atom archenemy), Katana (able to give Amazons trouble), and Black Lightning (a beta-level metahuman threat.) Jeph Loeb is such a bad Superman writer, they gave him his biggest PIS moments a name (Loeb Force). He's a bad Superman writer and therefore most of those moments are complete PIS including Batman "outsmarting" Darkseid.

Great! You're using feats from comics that you haven't even read, what a surprise! If you actually read the entire Final Crisis trade, you would realize he barely survived and only did so with the help of almost the entire superhero community, and almost destroyed the world in surviving to the present day.

No Caption Provided

Intelligence is a measure of creativity, not pure power. That's when the most intelligent people of all time are ranked it's the likes of Einstein, Newton, Feynman, etc., etc., and not those mental calculators who can find the 13th root of a 100 digit number. That's the reason Superman, the Flash, and other light-speed thinkers aren't as intelligent as the likes of Lex Luthor, Mr. Terrific, etc, etc. You obviously don't read Superman because you don't know anything about Lex Luthor. If you want to use non-canon sources to prove a canon Superman is more intelligent than a canon Lex Luthor, then your arguments are moot. Non-canon sources don't count unless we are arguing about a different Lex Luthor and Superman. I've made it extremely clear that I am arguing for a post-Crisis Lex Luthor and a post-Crisis Superman. None of the stories you mentioned are canon so they don't apply to a canon Lex Luthor. If Superman was smarter than Lex Luthor, he wouldn't be a threat to Superman. You can go ahead and show me when Superman does something like curing cancer in a lunchbreak. Lex is better at robotics than Will Magnus, solar energy than Bruce Gordan, time travel than David Clinton, cybernetics than Niles Caulder, energy than Karen Lou "Kitty" Faulkner, weapons design than John Henry Irons, and equals Ray Palmer in physics and Professor Ivo in cybernetics. Here, he was able to cure his cripple sister at a whim and remove the cure when he was tired of it. In Reign of Doomsday, he cloned four Doomsdays to capture Kryptonian-level beings and succeeded with every one of them captured. Have you even paid attention to Lex's intellect? He killed over 73,000 Kryptonians by turning the sun red in . In Final Crisis, Lex slew Libra by building a god-killer device on the fly. Libra, the guy who took on the entire League and handwaved the Spectre away. Lex neutralized Firestorm, the guy that can turn you into a tree with a wave of a hand. Even when Superman bet on his hubris and told him to build a prison he couldn't escape from, Lex Luthor did that without letting anyone trace the connection back to him.

If you keep mentioning the New 52, I'm going have to facepalm again. Even in the New 52, the high-tech tanks used to take down Superman are owned by Lexcorp, The K-Man Project are created by Lex Luthor,a supersoldier project involving kryptonite, The inescapable prison is designed by him, control;ed a battlesuit via an improvised radio-telepathy device,while locked in the prison, has a microchip installed in the brain,which he used to communicate with others and download information, The Mech suits used against Superman are designed by him, and Subject B-Zero Project is also created by him. Even in the New 52, though featured prominently less, he has still shown to be incredibly intelligent.

The only arguments you've offered is that "Lex Luthor may have thousands of feats and may act more intelligent than Superman but since Superman can think at light-speed and all his feats from non-canon sources are shown, he must be more intelligent than Lex Luthor." You can keep ignoring the feats I've given you but you're starting to give me an impression of being a troll since you haven't backed up anything you've said about Superman and Lex Luthor.You keep saying Superman is intelligent but you haven't shown any feats from a canon source. You just keep saying, "I don't have to prove anything. This isn't the battle forums so non-canon sources apply to canon character's feats." You keep repeating the same thing over with nothing to offer. -_-

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#67 Posted by kilowog52 (858 posts) - - Show Bio

@viperking: I agree with you that both Batman and Superman are not in the top running but I have to point out some flaws in your arguments. Mr. Terrific did not beat both Green Lantern and Black Canary at chess at the same time. As he was pitting one against the other, the result will always be one win and one loss or two draws, as Batman pointed out. You forgot Red Torpedo, the one female in Red Tornado's family. And I'm pretty certain Reddy's soul came from the Rannian Tornado Tyrant. Heck, even the Atom's devices run on white dwarf star matter, without it, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did. In addition, it seems that all this back and forth is not getting anywhere. Didn't the other guy say he was just giving his own opinion before this all started? If that is the case that means he can believe anything he wants, no matter how untruthful it is.

@the_red_viper: Watchmen does not take place in the DCU.

@forgottenzeroes: Actually Rip Hunter was taught about time travel by his father, Michael Jon Carter a.k.a. Booster Gold, who was in turn taught the ropes by Rip himself. Since they travel through time Rip was teaching Booster right before Flashpoint, but Rip's past was Boosters's future.

@degraaf: I don't think Captain Comet's abilities include hyper intelligence. He is super-strong, telepathic, telekinetic, and recently gained limited teleportational abilities. As for your list of smart characters, I agree that many, if not all, of those you mentioned, as well as some mentioned by later posters such as Grodd and the Atom, are in the running. Is the other character you were thinking of Dr. Emil Hamilton?

@lordmaverick: The Mother Boxes and/or the Boom Tubes were created by a New God named Hymon who was aligned with new Genesis, but lived on Apokalips. As far as I'm concerned the Brain is only called the Brain because he's just a brain in a jar. He may be somewhat intelligent, but I highly doubt he's on par with many of the other characters in the DCU.

And let's remember that there are all sorts of characters from the most well-known ones, such as Luthor, to virtual unknowns such as Professor Andrew Zagarian, creator of the Shaggy Man. I'm not saying that I think Zagarian is in the running for top ten smartest, though, there are so many smart characters.

Anyway, if we disregard everything outside of Earth, including Apokaliptian, New Genesian, Coluan, Kryptonian, Thanagarian, Rannian, Martian, Oan, etc scientists and stick with Earth, we know Michael Holt is the third smartest man in the world. I don't think the first and second have ever been revealed however. In the New 52, it is stated that Luthor is the first, and slightly implied that Superman is the second. However I'm not sure that this same rule of thumb applies to pre-Flashpoint continuity. I know Luthor is highly intelligent, but is he really more intelligent than every other human? He may be, but considering how many ridiculously intelligent characters there are out there, and the fact that it was never definitively stated pre-Flashpoint, I'm not sure. I would not go so far as to say he is leaps and bounds ahead of them. While Batman is really smart and is much more than competent in most fields, he is not one of the top ten smartest by a longshot, with all these characters whose sole purpose is their genius. Similarly, Barry Allen is a very qualified scientist, yet there are so many smarter than he is. As for Superman, I'm not saying he's unintelligent, he's actually very smart, but intelligence isn't his shtick. I'd say if he's written right, his intelligence is on par with a regular very smart human, not one of those hyper-intelligent humans like Michael Holt, Professor Ivo, etc.

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#68 Posted by ViperKing (424 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilowog52: I concede about Mr. Terrific defeating both Green Lantern and Black Canary in chess. It's still impressive that he could take both of them once though.

That's the wrong instance. I was referring to when both Professor Ivo and T.O. Morrow built Tomorrow Woman. Professor Ivo developed her body while T.O. Morrow developed her mind. In prison, they were bickering about who did the better work and T.O. Morrow won by showing that she shook off her original programming and discovered emotion, and eventually developed into a human being. The brain he created himself was sophisticated and human enough to discover free will, even though her original programming had not included the concept. Meanwhile, Ivo's work had never overstepped the bounds of its own programming.

It doesn't matter what the Atom's devices run on. He's still established as an insanely intelligent superhero, who's built significantly superior devices than Batman.

I agree but I'm just showing why he's incorrect.

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#69 Posted by Jokerpoker (3144 posts) - - Show Bio
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#70 Edited by Jack Donaghy (1323 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do so many people think science and tech feats are the only way of measuring intelligence it's so 1 dimensional. If you're a great scientist and that's it how does that make you smarter than someone who isn't as good as a scientist as you are but they're better than you in other area's. To use sports as an analogy even though Kevin Durant is a better scorer than LeBron James LeBron is still considered the better player because he's more well rounded (scoring, passing, defense, rebounding) Why are tactical smarts always downplayed in favor of science feats? A lot of scientific characters are only good in one area whereas someone like Batman is more well rounded. I'm not saying he's the smartest but when you consider that he didn't focus 100% of his time on one thing only the fact that he's a great scientist is really impressive. I don't know how many other characters besides Lex could train to be scientists, detectives, train in escape, martial arts, etc and be very good at all of them. Being very good at a lot of things while not being the very best at most of them imo makes you smarter than someone who is very good at 1 thing but that's it.

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#71 Edited by PapiNacho (3396 posts) - - Show Bio

@papinacho:

First off, I never said anything about Professor Ivo. -_- I said something about Ray Palmer, the Atom. Of course, I believe I could make a case for Professor Ivo but I don't feel the need. I also never said Mr. Terrific was the second most intelligent human in the DC universe. I said he was smarter than Batman. Anyways, it doesn't matter what their genius is specifically in, T.O. Morrow created an artificial soul, when the brain he himself had created was sophisticated and "human" enough to discover free will, even though the concept had not been included in its original programming. That trumps anything Batman has ever done. Quality of the intellect over quantity of subjects of intellect.

That is your opinion, I personally think that Batman has shown more capacity for learning than Morrow by being skilled in merely one field (science).

Mr. Terrific has performed emergency surgery after reading about the procedure in a medical textbook. In Brad Meltzer's JLA run,, Mr. Terrific noted that Batman had stolen some of his tech to improve his own. When he was only six, he already read and assimilated the works of Bohr, Einstein, Planck and Feyman. In fact, his equipment, which is much better than Batman's, was created all by himself. His T-Mask is molecularly bonded to his face and can appear and disappear at will. Through the use of nanotechnology, his mask also protects his face from chemicals and relays mental commands to his T-Spheres by detecting the subtle movements on his face. The mask works in conjunction with an earpiece to act as a communications system. His "T-Spheres", floating robotic spheres which can project holographic images, project laser grids, serve as cameras, link with outside data networks and orbital satellites, open electronic locks, allow him to fly by bearing his weight, explode with enough force to send Captain Marvel flying back, generate powerful electric charges, and strike as flying, projectile weapons. Now, his mask is able to scan the vicinity, and calculate how many people are coming at him, how far they are, how fast they are moving, and he can even see their temperature level. Nobody is going to be able to sneak on him. This is one of the many examples of creating something impressively close to Lex Luthor's inventions. Another example is that Mr. Terrific is absolutely invisible to technology, thanks to the T-Mask he created. Mr. Terrific can walk right through the base of OMAC's, the Brother Eye satellite. Machines can't hear him, see him, or record him. He's even taken over every radio and television station in the world. Batman hacking Gotham City's technology looks pretty pale, compared to that. If you want more feats for Mr. Terrific and his inventions, I can give them to you but I feel this has shown Mr. Terrific's intellectual superiority. Also, martial arts has nothing to do with intelligence. Martial arts is more of an emotional quotient than an intellect quotient. All your feats of Batman are pale, compared to feats of Mr. Terrific and other on-par geniuses.

Again your opinion, given that you only give science related feats, apart from the chess games, what other depictions of a strategic mind or any indication of being a Polymath. Martial Art do have to do with intelligence when you consider the sheer brainpower it takes to master i.e memorize the moves for 127 martial arts. Furthermore, my example was not reffering to that exactly but rather to the processing speed his mind must have to know which of all the moves he knows are the seven that would be effective in that situation and then pick one and use it in the span of what has to be a few seconds.

Did you just say the writer is irrelevant? Have you even read Superman/Batman? Or did you just watch the movies and say "Batman is so intelligent!"? Superman is beating Mongul (who is stronger and more durable) in a minute, and holding off Power Girl (Superman-level being), Captain Atom (a being that can arguably defeat Superman, much less take him), John Stewart (one of the most experienced Green Lanterns), and Starfire (who defeated Donna Troy). Batman is holding off Major Force (Captain Atom archenemy), Katana (able to give Amazons trouble), and Black Lightning (a beta-level metahuman threat.) Jeph Loeb is such a bad Superman writer, they gave him his biggest PIS moments a name (Loeb Force). He's a bad Superman writer and therefore most of those moments are complete PIS including Batman "outsmarting" Darkseid.

Hahaha, again your opinion, I couldn't care less what you think of Loeb or anyone thinks of Loeb. You think that you're going to talk me into disregarding the work of the writer who wrote the Long Halloween, Dark Victory and For All Seasons, because you think you know better? Please

Great! You're using feats from comics that you haven't even read, what a surprise! If you actually read the entire Final Crisis trade, you would realize he barely survived and only did so with the help of almost the entire superhero community, and almost destroyed the world in surviving to the present day.

Great you are being patronizing,insulting, and just plain wrong in a single sentence. Well guess what cupcake, that isn't the only time Batman outsmarted Darkseid, he also did it in Rock of Ages. A story in which I might add, he admitted his respect for him. Lets be serious here, you are probably going to call that PIS. You can't seem to accept that your vision of the characters is not the only that counts.

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Intelligence is a measure of creativity, not pure power. That's when the most intelligent people of all time are ranked it's the likes of Einstein, Newton, Feynman, etc., etc., and not those mental calculators who can find the 13th root of a 100 digit number. That's the reason Superman, the Flash, and other light-speed thinkers aren't as intelligent as the likes of Lex Luthor, Mr. Terrific, etc, etc. You obviously don't read Superman because you don't know anything about Lex Luthor. If you want to use non-canon sources to prove a canon Superman is more intelligent than a canon Lex Luthor, then your arguments are moot.

Are they? I only used non-canon sources because you did too. Newsflash non-of the feats you posted are canon since 2011. In fact I would argue that the books I spoke about are more "canon" since they represent much more iconic versions of the character.

Non-canon sources don't count unless we are arguing about a different Lex Luthor and Superman. I've made it extremely clear that I am arguing for a post-Crisis Lex Luthor and a post-Crisis Superman.

Where we? I don't remember saying jack about Crisis or non-Crisis, when I made my reply to this post. I don't remember the OP saying jack about that either.

None of the stories you mentioned are canon so they don't apply to a canon Lex Luthor. If Superman was smarter than Lex Luthor, he wouldn't be a threat to Superman.

He really isn't, not while Superman still has his super-intelligence. On the other hand I agree that he totally should be, I much rather read stories where he is, but then Red son and All-Star right?

You can go ahead and show me when Superman does something like curing cancer in a lunchbreak. Lex is better at robotics than Will Magnus, solar energy than Bruce Gordan, time travel than David Clinton, cybernetics than Niles Caulder, energy than Karen Lou "Kitty" Faulkner, weapons design than John Henry Irons, and equals Ray Palmer in physics and Professor Ivo in cybernetics. Here, he was able to cure his cripple sister at a whim and remove the cure when he was tired of it. In Reign of Doomsday, he cloned four Doomsdays to capture Kryptonian-level beings and succeeded with every one of them captured. Have you even paid attention to Lex's intellect? He killed over 73,000 Kryptonians by turning the sun red in . In Final Crisis, Lex slew Libra by building a god-killer device on the fly. Libra, the guy who took on the entire League and handwaved the Spectre away. Lex neutralized Firestorm, the guy that can turn you into a tree with a wave of a hand. Even when Superman bet on his hubris and told him to build a prison he couldn't escape from, Lex Luthor did that without letting anyone trace the connection back to him.

And yet you have not given me a single feat of Luthor thinking faster than a computer. I don't care if he can cure cancer with a light bulb if he can't think at super speed and Superman can he is not smarter. That is illogical, he could be more knowledge and very much more motivated and prepared but never smarter.

If you keep mentioning the New 52, I'm going have to facepalm again. Even in the New 52, the high-tech tanks used to take down Superman are owned by Lexcorp, The K-Man Project are created by Lex Luthor,a supersoldier project involving kryptonite, The inescapable prison is designed by him, control;ed a battlesuit via an improvised radio-telepathy device,while locked in the prison, has a microchip installed in the brain,which he used to communicate with others and download information, The Mech suits used against Superman are designed by him, and Subject B-Zero Project is also created by him. Even in the New 52, though featured prominently less, he has still shown to be incredibly intelligent.

I never said he wasn't.

The only arguments you've offered is that "Lex Luthor may have thousands of feats and may act more intelligent than Superman but since Superman can think at light-speed and all his feats from non-canon sources are shown, he must be more intelligent than Lex Luthor." You can keep ignoring the feats I've given you but you're starting to give me an impression of being a troll since you haven't backed up anything you've said about Superman and Lex Luthor.You keep saying Superman is intelligent but you haven't shown any feats from a canon source. You just keep saying, "I don't have to prove anything. This isn't the battle forums so non-canon sources apply to canon character's feats." You keep repeating the same thing over with nothing to offer. -_-

So do you, which is why I noted when you first called my opinions unfounded that we were never going to agree on this. We just place values on different things.

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#72 Posted by ViperKing (424 posts) - - Show Bio

@papinacho: I think it's best to agree to disagree since this back-and-forth isn't going anywhere, especially since we're never going to agree on this.

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#73 Posted by PapiNacho (3396 posts) - - Show Bio
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#74 Posted by jayc1324 (26432 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and lex luthor

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#75 Edited by Ahatebrenin (18 posts) - - Show Bio

BATMAN whit prep time

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#76 Posted by ClarkKent12 (138 posts) - - Show Bio

Overall - Brainiac

Non-Enhanced Human - Lex

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#77 Posted by towdow3 (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm gonna end this right now. The Presence is the smartest character in the DCU. The most powerful, unkillable, knows all sees all creates whatever it wants.

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#78 Edited by deactivated-5d30ff90eed8f (1024 posts) - - Show Bio

@towdow3 said:

I'm gonna end this right now. The Presence is the smartest character in the DCU. The most powerful, unkillable, knows all sees all creates whatever it wants.

I agree with this. The Presence is omniscient and created all of the DC universe in the first place. Know being is smarter than it's creator. In terms of humans, I would argue Batman. People often say Lex Luthor is the smartest human but feat wise Batman should be smarter.

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#79 Posted by Mister_Surreal (12208 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Metron

2. Braniac 5

3. Jor-El

4. Batman

5. Lex Luthor

6. Mr. Terrific

7. Ray Palmer

8. Professor Ivo

9. Dr. William Magnus

10. Dr. T.O. Morrow

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