One of the biggest questions DC fans have right now is with the Multiverse, what is going on with it? Well from reading the rebirth special, I think Johns makes it pretty clear that the current Earth-0 is in fact the post-crisis new Earth, but it has been altered somehow. And Ray Palmer mentions to Ryan Choi that he has found what he calls a microverse. I have a feeling personally that's a big revelation. And what happened after Superman and pre-crisis Flash went back in time at the end of convergence? And not just Earth-0 but has the greater Multiverse been manipulated as well? are the characters from Earth 2 Society from some alternate Earth that replaced the pre-flashpoint Earth 2. Has Dr. Manhattan manipulated the whole Multiverse? Let's hash it out

Right, so I'll give my interpretation somewhat chronologically. Grant Morrison's Multiversity uses characters seen prior to Flashpoint (not just in their own elseworlds titles, but in event crossovers). I think Morrison believed back then that Prime Earth is an edited New Earth, and considering it's the same Barry Allen who went from New Earth, to Flashpoint Earth, to Prime Earth, I think the Flashpoint event agreed with this interpretation.

Then Convergence ruined Morrison's view somewhat. Convergence, in my interpretation, basically said 'knock yourself out kids, everything ever published is canon somewhere, the idea of there being only 52 universes is stupid'. It's implied that Brainiac is able to move to deceased universes however, hence why all of the characters featured in Convergence (besides CoIE Supergirl and Barry, Zero Hour Hal and New Earth Lois and Clark) were presumably returned to their own timelines. The intention of this was to prevent CoIE from happening (hence infinite Earths existing rather than a maximum of 52). This is stupid because if CoIE didn't happen, all of the post CoIE stories wouldn't happen, and hence it'd be hard to explain why there are characters on New Earth/Prime Earth that did not exist on pre-Crisis Earth 1.

Then Rebirth. We see that New 52 Lois and Clark are different people to New Earth Lois and Clark. Same goes for Wally West. This was already the case for Booster Gold (and Rip Hunter I believe?). Considering how New 52 Barry is meant to be the same character as pre-Flashpoint Barry (hence him remembering Ginger Wally and the letter he gave to Bruce), this makes no sense. The Titans are meant to be the same people as the pre-Flashpoint Titans (despite their lineup and history being a bit different). On top of all of this, the arc last seen in Multiversity is set to carry on in a future Superman comic, with New Earth Superman meeting his counterparts from across the universe and the Justice League Incarnate or whatever they're called.

In short, despite their being continuity errors prior to Flashpoint, these were basically all mistakes by the writers or retcons. I can roughly follow the history of the DC multiverse from the Golden Age right up until Flashpoint. However, since Flashpoint, there is so much contradicting information that I can't make any sense of it. We'll just have to see what happens with Dr Manhattan, Mr Oz, and that upcoming Superman arc I mentioned.

Oh and just a note: New 52 Earth 2 does not replace the old Earth 2. Both versions of Jay appeared next to each other in Multiversity - meaning that the 'New 52 Earth 2' is a continuation or alteration of a pre-Flashpoint world that ISN'T the Golden Age Earth. Of cource IRL it's a modern interpretation of it, but in comic continuity, it's a separate entity.

Rebirth confirms this as we've seen Johnny Thunder in Rebirth, and seen classic Jay's helmet appear in a vision - these characters are presumably the same Johnny and Jay that were in the New Earth JSA, and thus the same ones that survived the destruction of Earth 2 in CoIE.

@mattydavehalpeo: In short, despite their being continuity errors prior to Flashpoint, these were basically all mistakes by the writers or retcons. I can roughly follow the history of the DC multiverse from the Golden Age right up until Flashpoint. However, since Flashpoint, there is so much contradicting information that I can't make any sense of it. We'll just have to see what happens with Dr Manhattan, Mr Oz, and that upcoming Superman arc I mentioned.... yeah that's pretty much my sentiment too.. the upcoming Superman Arc is called "multiplicity" starting in Superman 14.

Preview from Superman 14: while driving home Clark notices the Red Son Superman all beat up in the middle of the road( presumably the Earth 30 Superman from multiversity). He's apparently being hunted by "gatherers" pursuing there "lyst" of people throughout the DC Multiverse to be "processed". Not sure what to make of this, this sounds more like something Brainiac would do than Dr. Manhattan but the jury's out on that for me:$ in the third and fourth image taken from Hal Jordan and Green Lantern corp number 10, Starro lures the corp to a planet where a convergence Style Dome is put over them, then seeing this pre-crisis style Brainiac assembling his bottled cities making reference to the "master gatherer"

@mattydavehalpeo:Rebirth confirms this as we've seen Johnny Thunder in Rebirth, and seen classic Jay's helmet appear in a vision - these characters are presumably the same Johnny and Jay that were in the New Earth JSA, and thus the same ones that survived the destruction of Earth 2 in CoIE.. Hi. Yeah I think so too. The rebirth special definitely seem to Nullify convergence basically saying "hey it's all new Earth but times been messed with and everybody just forgot" yeah I'm not sure how the pre-crisis Earth 2 is out there somewhere while everyone on new Earth just forgot about their existence, this would seem to contradict convergence, but what's up with this pre-crisis style Brainiac talking about his "master gatherer" who he presumably works for, could it be Manhattan? IDK but hopefully Geoff Johns can make sense of this

Funny, I had no idea that the Multiversity Superman arc was coming so soon. I just picked up Superman #14 a few hours ago. A few observations: 1) 'Our' Superman so to speak is called an anomaly by Calvin Ellis, who otherwise calls 'our' post-Flaspoint world as 'New Earth'. The implication is that Superman is not originally from the post-Flashpoint world, but it is interesting because the post-Flashpoint world is described with a label used previously for the pre-Flashpoint world. 2) Nonetheless, when the Kong is taken and imprisoned, he is labelled as a resident of Earth 0, not Prime Earth or New Earth. 3) Amongst the imprisoned Supermen/woman/Rabbit, there is a Superman labelled as 'Earth 2' which is weird since it doesn't look like Val Zod or Kara Zor-El, but it can't be Kal El since we saw him die. 4) I have no reason to assume that the Lyst is anything other than a resource of the villains of Multiversity - we've seen Brainiac recently so I expect he'll be benched for a little longer. 4) Commie Supes appears to be from the part of Red Son prior to him succeeding Stalin as leader of the USSR. I say that judging by him not looking too old and because he's wearing the less ornate uniform from the start of the series. That said, if I recall correctly, there were two communist Supermen seen in Final Crisis, with the other wearing the dictator uniform - so this version could well be one largely unrelated from the Red Son story. 5) 'Our' Superman is aware that he's dealt with the multiverse before, but seemingly unaware that he's encountered the (presumably) same commie Superman before.

http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/8632/709585-untitled.jpg

I've spotted two communist and two fascist Supermen on this picture, not sure if either of them is the one from Rebirth Superman #14.

@mattydavehalpeo: hey I haven't picked up Superman 14 yet, but thanks for the heads up on the story, a few questions if you don't mind? "Our' Superman so to speak is called an anomaly by Calvin Ellis, who otherwise calls 'our' post-Flaspoint world as 'New Earth'. The implication is that Superman is not originally from the post-Flashpoint world" "our" Superman as in n52 supes right? there is a Superman labelled as 'Earth 2' which is weird since it doesn't look like Val Zod or Kara Zor-El, but it can't be Kal El since we saw him die. Does it actually show him? Hmmm... don't know what to make of it but would love to see Earth 2 Supes.. but yes he did die a very clear death in Infinite Crisis. I've spotted two communist and two fascist Supermen on this picture, not sure if either of them is the one from Rebirth Superman #14. Funny I thought the same thing, at first I thought the commie Superman was the one from Earth 30, consistent with multiversity, but now I don't know either, you're right his less ornate costume definitely marks him as an earlier commie Superman, presumably if Red Son played out on Earth 30 then it couldn't be him...

Just read the summary for Superman 14 and yeah it is the commie Superman from Earth 30... whether or not it's the same Superman from Red Son though... up in the air

I presumed that the Earth 2 Superman featured would be from the New 52 Earth 2, since that's the Earth labelled as such in Multiversity. But yeah it could be the pre-CoIE Earth 2.

Thinking about it, it could also be the long-forgotten interin Earth 2 from the 52 series: http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Earth-2 The reason I say this is because the Superman of that world has notoriously missing.

@mattydavehalpeo: said "I presumed that the Earth 2 Superman featured would be from the New 52 Earth 2, since that's the Earth labelled as such in Multiversity. But yeah it could be the pre-CoIE Earth 2." Yeah I'm pretty much just going by the multiversity guidebook unless otherwise stated, but wasn't the New 52 Earth 2 Superman killed off? That's the only reason I'm questioning who he is.

I am curious about original Earth 2, though, Jay Garrick presumably 2ND FROM LEFT in the pic, and also from Wally seeing Johnny Thunder in Rebirth one shot, it seems like the JS( real JSA) will definitely be making an appearance as the rebirth story plays out. the pre-crisis earth-two Superman did make an appearance in convergence, whether that's relevant or not in Rebirth, well I still don't understand convergence and it's ending or effect on the DCU

I guess we'll see. New 52 Earth 2 Kal El did die (I mean, he 'died' in the first issue, and then died 'for real' later on). One suggestion someone made to me on Facebook was that it is actually Val Zod pictured in Superman 14, and it's just that we'll have to wait until the next issue of Society to see him abducted.

As for my understanding of Jay and Jonny from Rebirth, I believe they'll be just a continuation of the post-CoIE JSA members who were merely a forgotten part of the JLA's Earth's history. Despite apocalypse after apocalypse, I believe that Earth 2 Society with continue post-Rebirth as a separate thing to the Prime Earth Rebirth JSA (just like how DC continue to publish Injustice Ground Zero and whatever other comic that depict Justice League characters in a separate continuity).

@mattydavehalpeo: said "that it is actually Val Zod pictured in Superman 14, and it's just that we'll have to wait until the next issue of Society to see him abducted."...Yeah that actually makes sense, looking at his costume it really looks a lot like Val Zod. "As for my understanding of Jay and Jonny from Rebirth, I believe they'll be just a continuation of the post-CoIE JSA members who were merely a forgotten part of the JLA's Earth's history." I'm not so sure, in the rebirth one shot Wally clearly remembers elements that happened after Infinite Crisis and rebirth Superman also remembers secret Origins, which would seem they will at least remember Earth 2 as it was before Flashpoint. Now that we have a Multiverse again, I think it would be unfortunate for them to go back to a post-crisis JSA approach .I mean Earth 2 Society, I'm not really into it, but it's not the worst comic DC is putting out. And I really loved the pre Flashpoint JSA. So I hope they get their pre Flashpoint Earth restored after rebirth, I mean the Multiverse is pretty much the same from 52 to multiversity except for earth 2 it's just this big gaping hole in the Multiverse that doesn't make sense, although I've heard that New 52 Earth 2 is starting to morph into its pre Flashpoint status with 1940 s Art Deco design, but I'm not current on that comic

I'm gonna be honest, the reason my current avataar is New 52 Earth 2 Jay Garrick (that's a mouthful!) is because of the speech that Mercury gave Jay in issue 1 of Earth 2. It's about a god who knows his time is limited bestowing power is a flawed boy who has been rejected by the figure he expected to love him (Joan was Jay's wife in basically every other depiction of the character). It's almost uplifting considering how poor Jay's Golden Age origin story was.

So yeah, the idea that Earth 2 Society is slowly gearing itself into a proper Justice Society appeals to me, but there are differences within the new 52 depiction of Earth 2 that I believe need to be kept. The Art Deco design seen in the CW's Flash Earth 2 pleased me, but I hated how it was in every other regard a depiction of comic book Earth 3.

Ultimately, when I think of the JSA, I don't think of the Golden Age itself (those comics are impossible too find digitally, and expensive to buy physically), nor do I think of the multiple post-CoIE JSA series. I think of the basically annual JLA/JSA crossovers (as seen in the Crisis on Multiple Earths volumes).

I do expect the new Earth 2 book (whatever it is called) to pay heavy homage to the pre-CoIE Earth 2 and the 52 Earth-2, as is necessary, but ultimately I expect there to be a Prime Earth JSA to form during rebirth that continues from the New Earth JSA. New 52 Earth 2 is ultimately coming from a different place than New Earth JSA did, even if it uses similar characters and terminology.

My attitude towards New 52 earth-2 is basically" I'm okay with its existence, but don't care about it" when I think of the definitive JSA, I think of the 1970s run of All Star Comics, or some of the back up Bronze Age JSA stories in Green Lantern or world's finest. I'm not sure what creative solution DC will come up with for what the hell happened to the original Earth 2,earth-38 seems to greatly resemble pre coie earth 2, but very little info is given on that Earth. But hey on another note, I'm starting to think DC is using rebirth to not only return focus to pre Flashpoint but cull some of the more unpopular stories like Identity crisis,( when Wally says in the rebirth one shot the guy who is corrupting time started even before the flashpoint)ex. Jean Loring and Ralph dibny being alive, and I'm pretty sure Johnny Thunder in pre flashpoint was dead

@mattydavehalpeo: hey matty, do u think convergence Wally and rebirth Wally are the same person,IMO I don't see how they can be do to continuity differences. But if Wally isn't the same, then how the heck is convergence Superman able to be in the rebirth universe, but maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here

I've also got this theory that perhaps the DC Multiverse was rearranged somehow after Flashpoint( although I admit most of the earths shown in 52 are almost in the same spot)

@redwhiteandbluesupes: The way I interpreted Convergence is that all of the characters besides Superman, Hal-Parralax, Supergirl and Barry-Flash were returned to their normal timeline with no memory of the events. Perhaps a way of explaining it would be that if there is such a soul in the DC universe (I've not read enough from the Constantine or other magical series to know), Convergence Wally would have the same soul as Rebirth Wally. Basically, in the same way post-CoIE is the same Jay from pre-CoIE Earth 2, just with a retconned history, and how post-Flashpoint-Barry is the same as pre-Flashpoint Barry, Convergence and Rebirth Wally are one and the same.

And yeah, it seems pretty much certain that Flashpoint affected more than just New Earth. As the cornerstone of the multiverse, there must've been implications for the other Earths. Like how Calvin Ellis Superman has had a rather drastic costume change in Multiversity from what was presumed to be the same character in Final Crisis.

As for the unknown Earths. If we presume that despite Convergence's 'everything DC has published is canon in some way', there are 52 universes grouped more closely together as seen in Multiversity, we have four mystery Earths to play with. I presumed that the rebooted Milestone universe (which was announced around the same time as Multiversity but not heard from since) would occupy one slot. Another would presumably go to the rebooted Wildstorm universe which is happening soon. I'd like one slot to go to the Gods and Monsters universe (two slots have gone to Timm creations, so this isn't impossible). I can't foresee a remaining slot going to pre-crisis Earth 2 when all evidence suggests that the characters that lived there are going to be reintegrated into New Earth like they were after the original crisis.

Earth 38- greatly resembles pre crisis on infinite Earths Earth 2 but I believe it's been said this is the Earth where the Batman Superman Generations stories took place. Judging by the super girl in the background it looks like that's the case I believe this Earth might have been showcased briefly during the post-crisis era in Main continuity but I'm not sure. Anyway, Wally and Supes remember Infinite Crisis, and what happened to earth 2 is very much a part of that rebirth mystery, I mean it's DC's most famous alternate Earth for God sake, and yes Johnny Thunder shows up on earth-0, but with the editorial restrictions coming out of DC after the New 52 era where the hell else would he show up? The only reason Jeff Johns old-timer approach to the JSA worked was because of editorial restrictions in place during post-crisis DC. Like Batman recalling seeing Alan Scott in Gotham City when he was a kid in hush, yuck, give me the post Infinite Crisis Multiverse any day over that. It's true that the JSA seems to be forgotten, but that hardly means they're going back to the post-crisis status quo, why would DC reopen their Multiverse only to cram their most famous alternate Earth back to its post-crisis status quo? doesn't make sense.( especially with Jeff Johns at the helm of the event. Who's notably a big JSA and Earth 2 fan) but just to be clear I'm making the case for the post-crisis Earth 2(52-earth2) returning rather than the pre-crisis Earth 2

. I'd like one slot to go to the Gods and Monsters universe (two slots have gone to Timm creations, so this isn't impossible).

@mattydavehalpeo: So wait, where did you hear about the Wildstorm Universe being rebooted?? I love multiverse stories but i'm not a fan of the post-Flashpoint Earth-0. But i like how they reintroduced the Pre-Flashpoint Superman, Lois Lane and Wally West but i still miss the JSA and the pre-Flashpoint Captain Atom. DC needs to make some multiverse characters have their own titles, most notably Calvin Ellis and Overman. Superman#14 is a real treat but i want to see more of the New 52 multiverse.

@hyperion_x: MattyDaveHalPeo just came across this interesting bit of info this is from Dan abnett in a recent interview"I think Wally doesn't remember everything yet, and I think it would almost put too much of a strain on him and Linda if there was this potential of not just a relationship being broken but of a whole family being lost," Titans writer Abnett, who has been overseeing West's journey since Rebirth, told ComicBook.com. "I've deliberately downplayed that. However, I do think that's the sort of thing that will come back to him as things progresss. I think there are opportunities coming up pretty soon where he will see more of what he's lost and the implications of that" and yeah I remember hearing something last fall about wildstorm being rebooted but have yet to hear anything else I'll try to find a link

@hyperion_x: yes Captain Atom Earth- 4 book would be great, I've also always wanted to see you the Earth-4 Ted Kord Blue Beetle at least show up in a story or something

@hyperion_x: http://uk.ign.com/articles/2016/10/04/writer-warren-ellis-to-reboot-dcs-wildstorm-universe Search 'Warren Ellis' and 'Wildstorm'. It was on all of the comic sites about two months ago I think.

I can't see there being anything more than a one-shot of Earth 4. 'Multiversity: Pax Americana' was heavily reliant on Watchmen (yes, I know the Watchmen were based on the Charlton characters, but Earth 4 fits more with Watchmen's narrative style), but with the actual Watchmen appearing in the DCU it seems unlikely that DC will bother.

@mattydavehalpeo: yeah IDK I just like the idea of the classic Steve ditko Blue Beetle being out there somewhere, or at least retcon Earth zeros Blue Beetle to have a similar history Dan Garrett still being Blue Beetle ect. And I mean similar history like pretty darn similar none of this rebirth sort of kind of stuff

So judging by statements made from Dan abnett and Geoff Johns I'm kind of starting to think a lot of stuff will be restored( editorial wouldn't go this far bring up this much pre Flashpoint stuff if they didn't intend on doing something with it) I'm thinking they're pretty much going to restore the pre Flashpoint universe with some retcons such as Sue dibny not going crazy an identity crisis maybe Cry For Justice Exedra but all this stuff will have in story reason for why this changed

Basically restore the pre Flashpoint DC Universe( and all its retcons it had back then) and then bring back all of the Golden Age history from new Earth,( post-crisis new Earth, not the original pre-crisis Earth 2) basically going back to Geoff Johns old-timer approach

What would be the point of having pre-crisis Superboy escape from the time Trappers show up in the modern post crisis DC Universe disguise himself as the Metropolis kid remember all his pre-crisis memories and somehow get his mind absorbed by the shark only to have it restored by Green Lantern forgetting his pre-crisis memories in the process, there would be no point, except of course pissing off a large swath of the fan base

This is the most complicated thread I think I've ever read.

It's all very impressive, but how do you people know with such ease which Earth various events play out on? It's not like each comic begins with, "It's a sunny day on Earth-4 when suddenly...". You guys are machine gunning all sorts of impressive, nerdy, facts.

@rainshadow777: Hahahaha why thank you, I aim to impress. I must say though, other than stories that were created as Elseworlds one-shots, a lot of the multiversal stories are quite clear about which Earth they're on. Multiversity stories have all 52 Earths listed down the side of their cover, with the world depicted being highlighted among the list. Earth 2 Society stories essentially say 'meanwhile on Earth 2' on the first panel of each issue.

I'll keep my eyes as open as my mind.

So is pre crisis currently canon?