How powerful SHOULD the gods/new-gods be?

Avatar image for lightsout
#1 Posted by lightsout (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

I say "should" because it seems it's never written consistently. I'm looking for more of what we think makes sense.

This thought came to me while reading Vol3 & late-Vol2 of Wonder Woman. Often her gods (the Greek pantheon) are portrayed as how I think they should be - not quite omnipotent creators (like "the presence", which is more of a judeo-christian, one-above-all type god), but still having enough power & magic to seem that way to even the super-heroes like Superman or Wonder Woman (they can create life, manipulate reality to an extent, etc). However, once & a while I noticed they were written as not much different than the top heroes, that WW could battle them & it wouldn't be total over-kill (ie: in Vol3 she puts an ax in Ares' skull & while he doesn't die in the conventional sense, she basically kills him).

The New Gods I've always thought should be like gods compared to normal people/species (since they're all essentially super-heroes to some degree & have some of the universe's best technology). But other than that they aren't really reality manipulators or "creators" in the like of the Greek gods (& the other classic earth god pantheons). (Withing themselves, their power has also fluctuated, sometimes being so strong the top heroes are no match (in Superman Confidential, Orion seemed to be able to easily handle Superman) but other-times Superman could stand a chance against even the best of them).

The real trouble here comes when these 2 groups meet, when prior to Final Crisis the NG of Apokolips "conquered" the Greek Gods (WW's book mentions this specifically a lot). This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, especially that most of Darkseid's cronies are much weaker than he is (Superman has rarely had trouble with any of them).

Was Morrison (et all) wrong to make the New Gods this "powerful"? Or should the Greek-gods (& other earth gods) have been weaker? (that they were only written as they were to fit in with WW's Greek mythos, when in fact they are just super-powered being who seemed like gods to normal people - just as in Marvel, Thor is just of a species that is very powerful, he's not a creator or reality manipulator or w/e - and there are other "normal" super heroes who can still hang with him in a fight (ie: Superman, WW & the like should be able to fight a lot of the earth "gods")).

Avatar image for ultrastarkiller
#2 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (9130 posts) - - Show Bio

Very

Avatar image for lilben42
#3 Posted by lilben42 (2702 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree

Avatar image for degraaf
#4 Posted by DEGRAAF (8425 posts) - - Show Bio

My thinking is the thing they tried to do is the same thing that happened between the Titans and the Gods. The titans were stronger (I believe) but were still defeated by the gods.

While i also believe DC has stated that the New Gods are supposed to b more powerful then the old gods it doesnt really seem to be the case. They just seem to have more technology and less magic and true power. I think the new gods shouldnt actually be a replacement to the old gods and should just be a race ob beings that have been around since the newest big bang with unparalleled technology. They could still be slightly stronger then the current pantheon of superheros (with Darkseid being noticeably more powerful then Superman thank to the Anti-Life Equation)

I could even understand someone arguing that point (that the Greek Gods are just a species more powerful then humans but not actual gods). If that was the case though i would want them to be born out of magic or a magical realm since that is Wonder Womans background and helps explain some things.

Avatar image for lightsout
#5 Posted by lightsout (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@degraaf: I agree with that middle part. They're gods by name, not by ability/reality. It's as if some writer was reporting on a society of people where Superman where would seem ordinary, they might label them "The New Gods". Their location that is seemingly unique (& not replicated in each of the parallel universes) probably doesn't help the perception that they are actual gods. (That's another good Q...if the Greek (& other civilization) gods are replicated in each universe (when there were multiple ones) or if their realm is aside from that (that would definitely make them more powerful I'd think)).

Avatar image for degraaf
#6 Edited by DEGRAAF (8425 posts) - - Show Bio

@lightsout:

I thought according to the New 52 that the Roman or Greek gods are the gods of every universe so the ones that die in our universe also die in every other universe bc they are the same person. Basically there is one set of gods for the whole Multi-verse

Avatar image for lightsout
#7 Posted by lightsout (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@degraaf: Oh yea? I wouldn't have any clue (even if it was said in something I read, I probably forgot). I wonder why they're not "immune" to the universe collapsing stuff .....DC's cosmic-hierarchy is so confusing, lol. Given they're the gods of every universe I would think they definitely have to be more powerful than the NG who Superman can sometimes go toe-to-toe with.

Avatar image for degraaf
#8 Posted by DEGRAAF (8425 posts) - - Show Bio

@lightsout: Idk why i just thought i heard someone mention that when Earth 2 came out and they were talking about the god Flash (from Earth-2) got his powers from being from the same set of gods Diana (from Earth-1, or New Earth) got her powers from. I think i read that in an interview. But i also beleive they stated the same thing about the new gods. Darkseid attacked Earth-1 while Steppenwolf attacked Earth-2 bc they are from the same set of new gods and dont have multiple versions of them selves stemming from each universe but are god over all universes

Avatar image for durakken
#9 Posted by Durakken (1930 posts) - - Show Bio

The deities of DC are supposed to be generated by the source wave or whatever it is called bouncing back and forth across the universe. The first wave created the the old god, the 2nd the new gods, and the latest The Heroes of Earth... so the rankings are something like this...

  1. The Source
  2. The demons, angels, and various forces like "Death" "The Spectre" etc...
  3. The spectrum entities
  4. The Old Gods
  5. The New Gods
  6. The Super humans and meta-forces on Earth
  7. Immortal normal beings
  8. Mortals

There is obviously cross-over with some more power and some less powerful. It should be noted that there are groups that seems to be a level between New and Old Gods which is filled by Maltusians, their enemies, their allies, Sun Eaters, etc...because they don't seem to be touched by the New Gods at all and they can subdue the spectrum entities which means they must have some sort of power over them. Of course this could mean that they are just part of the Old Gods or something...

There is a DC story about the New Gods fighting the Old Gods...and the Old Gods having problems, but I think it's explained by some sort of interference rule or just the shear number difference.

Avatar image for deaditegonzo
#10 Posted by deaditegonzo (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

The New Gods, as a whole, should basically be equal to the Old Gods. The lesser New Gods should be on par with, or just above, all but the most powerful Super Heroes. The top dogs, like Darkseid, should be superior to the Old Gods, and should be beyond the capability for any hero to solo. /IMO

Avatar image for lightsout
#11 Posted by lightsout (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: Good point re. the Guardians. They seemingly get forgotten (perhaps due to their massive involvement in "earthly" matters, but in all but a few cases they are shown to be very god-like in their power/technology.

Avatar image for durakken
#12 Posted by Durakken (1930 posts) - - Show Bio

@lightsout: I also forgot the most powerful person in the DCU theoretically save for "The Source"... That character is... Black Alice. All the most powerful characters are magic based and she has the ability to channel and thus steal the power from any magic character which makes her technically the most powerful character ^.^

Avatar image for lightsout
#13 Posted by lightsout (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: true, I remember in late-JLv4 she stole Eclipso's power & at the time he was being written to his full potential (ie: as strong as Spectre).

Avatar image for sinestro_gl
#14 Posted by sinestro_GL (3651 posts) - - Show Bio

As far as I'm aware, the Greek Gods power alternates depending on what the story requires. It can be terribly inconsistent at times.

With the New Gods, they have at time suffered from being written by writers that aren't entirely familiar with the Fourth World...which is why you sometimes see New Gods like Darkseid and Orion do incredible things, but somehow are bested by lesser impressive adversaries.

Avatar image for kasino
#15 Edited by kasino (2061 posts) - - Show Bio

Very interesting. I think it should be written into more. Their initial mythology is great and while more is given than the Eternals it is still not flushed out.

I like to think gods all come from the source. Everything comes from the source. From New God's to Earth God's of old to Lucifer to dimensional lords like Trigon to concepts like the Dreamless to concept host like Parralex.

My redenition.

When the source made the universe it's energies were released. Some energies formed sentient thought and they were the gods(so the gods creation myths are all half truths. the are apart of the source but their explanation is their POV). Most God's have long left the lower beings(humans and the aliens who aren't Gods). Most either went back into the source or content in ruling their dimensions(source pockets all God's once had..also as you know you can't travel to New Genesis) like Trigon or the Greeks. Some dimensions have humanoids but their gods are long gone, like Diemos. His magic/demons come from tapping into the pockets energy, as pockets are Source made realms. This also explains other magic. Magic is tapping into the the source. Some do it by tapping into Gods(Shazam). Tapping into concepts(Starheart Alan Scott). Tapping into God's who remained for use in an item(Vixen necklace). While others tap into the source itself(Dr. Fate/Zatara/Zantanna through spellcasting, language that release and controls portion of the Source). Then there's the New Gods. Either through proximity or experiments they have gained more control than others of the Source(particularly just Darkseid/Highfather/Infinity Man). For whatever reason they unlike other gods are aware of not just their godhood but the source. They weren't concerned with helping of lower humanoid life but understanding the Source. Essentially with no other lifeforms or even concepts they were the humans and the Source was god. Because of their divinity and divine intelligence their technology is far advanced that our tech(even comic tech) is just not only primitive but foreign. Like the Puma Punka. Reason why we're not completely helpless). They are Clarke 3rd Law amped to an extreme.

So Darkseid as a God should be the threat like no other God is. He bothers not with dimensional lords like Trigon because he sees no need. He is only after the Anti-Life equation(sometimes reveng) which he believes to be partly on Earth in particular. Trigon doesn't deal with Darkseid, he might not be as powerful, but mostly he doesn't know he exist. Pocket realms open up to our universe. Maybe wherever they want or where someone in our universe done what's needed to open the door(New God's understand this and they created the Motherbox. Technology that taps into the Source, similar to spell/ritual casting but amped far beyond.)

So it goes.

The Source

Darkseid/Highfather/Infinity Man/Some top tier source concentrated Concepts

Mid tier source concentrated concepts/Old God's in their dimensions

Low tier concepts/our universal team busters

Far belouw our universal powerhouses through whatever means

and so on.

Avatar image for jb681131
#16 Edited by jb681131 (3380 posts) - - Show Bio

@lightsout: Well things have to be made clear because some of what you say confuses me.

First, outside of comics, with the ancient Greek, Roman, Egyptian or Nord gods, there are different levels between them. Some have like all powers such as Zeus and other can only do simple tasks such as Dyonisos the god of wine. I believe it is the same among goods in the comics.

Second, "Darkseid's cronies" as you say are not gods. Only Darkseid is a god, if i'm correct.

Third, in no mythology it is sayd that a God can't be defeated or has no weakness or can't die.

Forth, like for each superheros, different authors make the gods more or less strong and more or less intelligent. For exemple, Batman is some a very good detective that happens to have flaws, and sometimes he is that undefitable "Batgod" depending on the story and writter. Which then confuses the reader.

So to conclude with my opinion on how gods should be portraid. Not all gods should have the same powers and strength. The weaker ones shouldn't be more difficulte than some super-vilains. The stronger ones should be very strong being, but not invinsible creatures that can kill with a snap of there fingers. But major gods should always be strong and not easily defeatable. If it is the case as you mention sometimes, then the plot of the story was poorly written.

Avatar image for Stanlos
#17 Edited by Stanlos (21 posts) - - Show Bio

I think they should be viewed without Judeo-Christian bias. They are GODS and I think Karen Berger's team on Vol 2 of WW and the reestablishment of that in Eric Luke's run (after Byrne's outright butchering of the mythology) handled it best. Gaea/The Presence are simply names for the same thing seen through the lens of various cultures. That lens determines whether the Divinity(ies) are seen as one Godhead or the Godhead fractured into tiers/personas/pantheons.

But ultimately it's the same thing.

The New Gods were perfectly explained by HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE, Action 600, and so on. They are aliens transformed by divine energies (a passing of the Godwave) and are more in line with what the originating poster seemed to want in terms of not being 'true' Gods a la Zeus or Set and the others. They wield powerful cosmic forces.

Avatar image for danteisterrible
#18 Edited by Danteisterrible (204 posts) - - Show Bio

New Gods are gods like the old gods but are generally an pantheon that lives outside of space and time that evolved into abstract personifications of concepts that existed before time itself.

They aren't real aliens, their avatars are an alien copy that ties to the source mixing magic and science to keep them understandable to lesser sapient beings, since their not real physical beings, theyre ideas that process the universe giving existance.

The new gods exist on a higher plane of existence near or in the source (which is all faith) and are the existential representatives of what they embody, there true forms are far more powerful than planetary gods.

Avatar image for honikerx
#19 Edited by HonikerX (220 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Typhon should be HADES, and Gaea had that baby before she even MET Zeus. We should know that in ancient heroes, no gods who were not heroes ever WERE,

tolerated? Typhon was called a MONSTER if Hephaestus was the UGLY GOD. Which means hot and people hated him. Lion? Right Aslan the MONSTER. And HERCULES was a Ringer for Typhon? but the son of ZEUS, TIGER

AEOLOS:HADES:TYPHON:ASLAN?

POSEIDON:THE BEAST: WOLF: NEPTUNE: AETHER: BATMAN

HEPHAESTUS:ZEPHYRUS: CREATED OPHIDIAN

Zataro is ZEUS or ZEUS is weak. But DAMIAN is his son, Damian Wayne. Bruce doesn't tell you where he keeps his kids, it was Oliver and Huntress too, but Cassandra CAIN. But OLIVER is PERSEUS

that would be ATLANTA, HUNTRESS is ATLANTA

some god damn time travel stories!

Avatar image for tethadam
#20 Posted by tethadam (1418 posts) - - Show Bio

Some Abstract level, Some Skyfather level, Some Herald Level, most below

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.