"Scott was right in many ways. However it's also worth stressing -- and I suspect this is the thing which most pro-Scott advocates are skirting over -- is that if we did everything like Scott said, the Earth would have been destroyed. Hope wasn't ready. She was ready eventually but that required time.

(That said, there's also the reading that Hope was always fine and could have dealt with it if she had too. I think that's a bit of a reach -- but we'll never know.)

Scott's position was always a fatalistic, providence-heavy one. The Avengers' resistance was all part of the universal plan. Scott taking the Phoenix for as long as he did allowed Hope to be ready. It all worked out.

That's the thing which makes Scott's mono-vision more questionable, for me. By believing it all worked out in the end does mean you remove the possibility that it could have worked out in a better way.

Though I suppose when you've killed your mentor and father figure, that's a question you may want to avoid for as long as possible." - Gillen for X-Position (Comic Book Resources)

I agree with Gillen. Hope didn't start training for the Phoenix until Scott forced the Avengers into action. Cyclops is "tragic hero" of AvX, the best X-Man who sacrificed his name for mutantkind.

One question, though: Cable was the one who told Scott to guard Hope at all costs. If Cable knew what the future held, why didn't he just tell Scott about K'un-L'un? Why did Cable hang his father out to dry?

and what of the fact that Hope never got to complete her training with the x-men, thanks to the Avengers showing up......i dont remember any mention to how much time was actually spent training Hope while under the care of the Avengers.....based on how many issues were spent on her training....not any longer than the worldwide search for Hope, leading up to the fight on the moon. Meaning that time could have been used to further train Hope.

cause she didnt need K`un-lun training....she just needed more training period.

(That said, there's also the reading that Hope was always fine and could have dealt with it if she had too. I think that's a bit of a reach -- but we'll never know.)

this part i like....cause at least it left it open to things being ok if the x-men were left alone

I love Gillen.

Gillen is a good writer, but lets be honest he works for Marvel and Marvel wants very badly to push that Avengers were the good guys, and they won. They have been pushing AVENGERS down our throats for months now, i think the whole reason he said this was because marvel realized that the fans weren't buying the big pile of Poo that is Wolverine & cap's Hypocrisy in the entire event. You can blame it on poor writing if you want, but what is written is written and Cyclops may of been determined but he was poked and prodded and forced into doing what he did. So what if the Phoenix knew it was going to happen? It doesn't mean that the avengers were not wrong and acting stubborn, insisting that Cyclops was evil or what not.

Gillen's Cyclops is awesome. One of my favourite takes on the character ever.

@VampireSelektor: To I'd ask him. "It only takes a month of training to handle a cosmic entity?"

@McKlayn said:

Gillen is a good writer, but lets be honest he works for Marvel and Marvel wants very badly to push that Avengers were the good guys, and they won. They have been pushing AVENGERS down our throats for months now, i think the whole reason he said this was because marvel realized that the fans weren't buying the big pile of Poo that is Wolverine & cap's Hypocrisy in the entire event. You can blame it on poor writing if you want, but what is written is written and Cyclops may of been determined but he was poked and prodded and forced into doing what he did. So what if the Phoenix knew it was going to happen? It doesn't mean that the avengers were not wrong and acting stubborn, insisting that Cyclops was evil or what not.

True.

@trutrutru: Hmm. It seems as if Hope hadn't made any progress until her time in K'un-L'un. Spider-Man was the person to teach Hope heroism; not Cyclops, not Cable, not Emma. Could you explain how Cyclops tried to prepare Hope for the Phoenix? It's as if most of the adults in Hope's life were compromised by politics. Cyclops, Emma, Namor, and Magneto were concerned for their people's livelihood. The Avengers were concerned with being assertive. The decision to make Spider-Man the last mentor to Hope makes sense; who has better morals than Spider-Man? Even if the X-Men and Avengers were written as irrational, this point makes sense. What took down most of the Phoenix hosts? Hubris, id. Humility and responsibility cure that up just right.

Back to Cable: if he knew how this war would end up, why not prod Cyclops into asking for the Avengers' help first? Manipulate him into hiring Spider-Man as Hope's guide, feed him hints to link Phoenix and K'un-L'un? Is this bad writing overall, or is there a reason Cable threw Cyclops under the bus?

Thoughts?

@TheCrowbar said:

@VampireSelektor: To I'd ask him. "It only takes a month of training to handle a cosmic entity?"

I'm sorry, did Hope train with the Avengers for a month or did her training overall amount to a month? And again:

It seems as if Hope hadn't made any progress until her time in K'un-L'un. Spider-Man was the person to teach Hope heroism; not Cyclops, not Cable, not Emma. Could you explain how Cyclops tried to prepare Hope for the Phoenix? It's as if most of the adults in Hope's life were compromised by politics. Cyclops, Emma, Namor, and Magneto were concerned for their people's livelihood. The Avengers were concerned with being assertive. The decision to make Spider-Man the last mentor to Hope makes sense; who has better morals than Spider-Man? Even if the X-Men and Avengers were written as irrational, this point makes sense. What took down most of the Phoenix hosts? Hubris, id. Humility and responsibility cure that up just right.

Thoughts?

Just because they were training her doesn't mean they were giving her the right type of training. She needed Spider-Man and Iron Fist.  

@VampireSelektor: We never saw her training with Cable beyond a few panels. And again, a month of training to handle a cosmic entity seems ridiculous even for comics regardless of who it was with.

@TheCrowbar: Was Hope's training on Utopia anything more than vague pep talk and sparring? And you're right, there isn't a science to handling a cosmic entity. But Spider-Man explaining heroism and patience to Hope makes sense. Who else tried to do that for Hope? Rogue is the only person that comes to mind, but still. Spider-Man's entire career rests on "with great power comes great responsibility"; we all know he learned that the hard way. He's a great, if not the best choice to mentor the next Phoenix host.

@VampireSelektor said:

@McKlayn said:

Gillen is a good writer, but lets be honest he works for Marvel and Marvel wants very badly to push that Avengers were the good guys, and they won. They have been pushing AVENGERS down our throats for months now, i think the whole reason he said this was because marvel realized that the fans weren't buying the big pile of Poo that is Wolverine & cap's Hypocrisy in the entire event. You can blame it on poor writing if you want, but what is written is written and Cyclops may of been determined but he was poked and prodded and forced into doing what he did. So what if the Phoenix knew it was going to happen? It doesn't mean that the avengers were not wrong and acting stubborn, insisting that Cyclops was evil or what not.

True.

@trutrutru: Hmm. It seems as if Hope hadn't made any progress until her time in K'un-L'un. Spider-Man was the person to teach Hope heroism; not Cyclops, not Cable, not Emma. Could you explain how Cyclops tried to prepare Hope for the Phoenix? It's as if most of the adults in Hope's life were compromised by politics. Cyclops, Emma, Namor, and Magneto were concerned for their people's livelihood. The Avengers were concerned with being assertive. The decision to make Spider-Man the last mentor to Hope makes sense; who has better morals than Spider-Man? Even if the X-Men and Avengers were written as irrational, this point makes sense. What took down most of the Phoenix hosts? Hubris, id. Humility and responsibility cure that up just right.

Back to Cable: if he knew how this war would end up, why not prod Cyclops into asking for the Avengers' help first? Manipulate him into hiring Spider-Man as Hope's guide, feed him hints to link Phoenix and K'un-L'un? Is this bad writing overall, or is there a reason Cable threw Cyclops under the bus?

Thoughts?

im sorry....although that was the training she needed given the circumstance. There is nothing that proves that she could only have done it with a spiderman pep talk. Its one thing for the story to unfold the way it did. And another for the story to tell us it could not have been done any other way.

gillens response said nothing of spiderman words specifically.....just that she needed more training.....and even then threw it out there that there was the possibility that she could have stepped up and done it herself....just giving us the possibility for such a scenario already kills the idea that spiderman was essential to her Hosting the Phoenix

and even still...even after the spiderman pep talk....she still wanted to do what the avengers considered to be the irresponsible thing and keep the phoenix force....Wanda had to talk her out of it. sorry man. im just not sold on it.

as for cable....surely if he felt like spiderman and k'un-lun was essential, he may have said something.....remember he wanted to kill the avengers before this event...so the idea of needing all this to transpire the way it did for things to get accomplished is just wrong...him having special knowledge from the future and still coming back to stop the avengers before avx should be an indicator of some things

@VampireSelektor: Her time with Cable was her training for just her learning how to control her powers on Utopia. Again my criticism is not the who of who trained Hope. But the length of time, to day Hope's training with Spiderman is the thing that made her able to handle the power of the Phoenix force is laughable.

@TheCrowbar said:

@VampireSelektor: Her time with Cable was her training for just her learning how to control her powers on Utopia. Again my criticism is not the who of who trained Hope. But the length of time, to day Hope's training with Spiderman is the thing that made her able to handle the power of the Phoenix force is laughable.

Spider-Man's an expert on the Phoenix Force, duh.

@trutrutru said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@McKlayn said:

Gillen is a good writer, but lets be honest he works for Marvel and Marvel wants very badly to push that Avengers were the good guys, and they won. They have been pushing AVENGERS down our throats for months now, i think the whole reason he said this was because marvel realized that the fans weren't buying the big pile of Poo that is Wolverine & cap's Hypocrisy in the entire event. You can blame it on poor writing if you want, but what is written is written and Cyclops may of been determined but he was poked and prodded and forced into doing what he did. So what if the Phoenix knew it was going to happen? It doesn't mean that the avengers were not wrong and acting stubborn, insisting that Cyclops was evil or what not.

True.

@trutrutru: Hmm. It seems as if Hope hadn't made any progress until her time in K'un-L'un. Spider-Man was the person to teach Hope heroism; not Cyclops, not Cable, not Emma. Could you explain how Cyclops tried to prepare Hope for the Phoenix? It's as if most of the adults in Hope's life were compromised by politics. Cyclops, Emma, Namor, and Magneto were concerned for their people's livelihood. The Avengers were concerned with being assertive. The decision to make Spider-Man the last mentor to Hope makes sense; who has better morals than Spider-Man? Even if the X-Men and Avengers were written as irrational, this point makes sense. What took down most of the Phoenix hosts? Hubris, id. Humility and responsibility cure that up just right.

Back to Cable: if he knew how this war would end up, why not prod Cyclops into asking for the Avengers' help first? Manipulate him into hiring Spider-Man as Hope's guide, feed him hints to link Phoenix and K'un-L'un? Is this bad writing overall, or is there a reason Cable threw Cyclops under the bus?

Thoughts?

im sorry....although that was the training she needed given the circumstance. There is nothing that proves that she could only have done it with a spiderman pep talk. Its one thing for the story to unfold the way it did. And another for the story to tell us it could not have been done any other way.

gillens response said nothing of spiderman words specifically.....just that she needed more training.....and even then threw it out there that there was the possibility that she could have stepped up and done it herself....just giving us the possibility for such a scenario already kills the idea that spiderman was essential to her Hosting the Phoenix

and even still...even after the spiderman pep talk....she still wanted to do what the avengers considered to be the irresponsible thing and keep the phoenix force....Wanda had to talk her out of it. sorry man. im just not sold on it.

as for cable....surely if he felt like spiderman and k'un-lun was essential, he may have said something.....remember he wanted to kill the avengers before this event...so the idea of needing all this to transpire the way it did for things to get accomplished is just wrong...him having special knowledge from the future and still coming back to stop the avengers before avx should be an indicator of some things

There's no need to be sorry. Honestly, I haven't read the entirety of AvX. I'm just trying to exercise a little faith in Marvel.

@TheCrowbar: Yeah, you're probably right.

Gillen did a pretty decent job with the character. Whedon's portrayal of the character will always be my favorite.

@x_29 said:

Gillen did a pretty decent job with the character. Whedon's portrayal of the character will always be my favorite.

Both excellent.

nothing moral about deals with SATAN. Spiderman isn't the moral high ground.

So -- since Hope needed that extra time (maybe) then Iron Man's a hero. Right?

I'm sorry, but the idea that K'un L'un provided better training in a short amount time than the years of training Cable gave Hope is ludicrous. Heck, even the Marvel editors mocked it in one of their podcasts. It was completely shoehorned in, and I don't take it seriously.

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@lykopis said:

So -- since Hope needed that extra time (maybe) then Iron Man's a hero. Right?

I think it's safe to say that Stark blames himself for a LOT of what happened in AvX. His revelation to Cyclops that he knew the Phoenix would create more mutants in the end and his desperate desire to learn more about it comes after being the one to recklessly attack the cosmic force and split it. The Phoenix Five would never have existed had he not acted, so for better or worse he shares the burden.

I actually totally agree with you, it's also one reason Ironman is still cool with me, this shows that a person on the avengers can UNDERSTAND that everyone fucked up. Even in consequences Wolverine seemed to come off his high horse a bit, tell Scott he knew he didn't mean to kill the Professor and even go as far as telling him he looked up to him, it is also the root of why i really dislike Cap at the moment. He seems (at least in all text thta has been writen) not admitted he was wrong about ANYTHING and that it was all cyclops fault. (yes i know he says he didn't do enough about mutant affairs but that is something way before AVX he needs to admit to his wrong doing in AVX damn it)

@McKlayn said:

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@lykopis said:

So -- since Hope needed that extra time (maybe) then Iron Man's a hero. Right?

I think it's safe to say that Stark blames himself for a LOT of what happened in AvX. His revelation to Cyclops that he knew the Phoenix would create more mutants in the end and his desperate desire to learn more about it comes after being the one to recklessly attack the cosmic force and split it. The Phoenix Five would never have existed had he not acted, so for better or worse he shares the burden.

I actually totally agree with you, it's also one reason Ironman is still cool with me, this shows that a person on the avengers can UNDERSTAND that everyone fucked up. Even in consequences Wolverine seemed to come off his high horse a bit, tell Scott he knew he didn't mean to kill the Professor and even go as far as telling him he looked up to him, it is also the root of why i really dislike Cap at the moment. He seems (at least in all text thta has been writen) not admitted he was wrong about ANYTHING and that it was all cyclops fault. (yes i know he says he didn't do enough about mutant affairs but that is something way before AVX he needs to admit to his wrong doing in AVX damn it)

Completely agree with both of you -- and yeah, Cap is not coming across so good right now. It kind of reminds me about the time X-23 was brought in and he interrogating her. Matt (Daredevil) in the capacity of her lawyer was just blown away by how black and white Cap saw things despite learning the horrific truth about her past. In Cap's eyes, she was a cold-blooded murderer.

Spider-Man and K'un L'un turning out to be Hope's ultimate mentors is the straw that broke the camels back in my case. When I read that it was literally the first time I just stared and shook my head at any comic (And I read Grounded). I appreciate Gillen for coming out and saying this, although I do believe that Cyclops was more than a 'little right'. But, as other users have said, Marvel is shamelessly pushing the Avengers at the expense of other great teams and characters. 
Damn Marvel Movies for being awesome!! 

@TheCrowbar said:

@VampireSelektor: Her time with Cable was her training for just her learning how to control her powers on Utopia. Again my criticism is not the who of who trained Hope. But the length of time, to day Hope's training with Spiderman is the thing that made her able to handle the power of the Phoenix force is laughable.

I kinda read it as Hope pretty much having all the ability, training and skills she needed to handle the Phoenix Force, just not the confidence or disciplined attitude. K'un Lun/Iron Fist gave her the discipline and Spidey the confidence/conviction. It was like, she's almost ready but just needed that last 5% whatever to get her there. Didn't read it as the Avengers were starting from day one with her at all. That was my kinda take on it anyways.

Also, people seem to forget that Unit (in Gillen's UXM tie-ins) seems to have purposefully derailed Hope's path to becoming the PF host. If I remember correctly, he planned things so the the Lights were taken out of the game / kept in the dark as to their apparent role in things. He said that due to the natural imbalance created by Wanda's 'No more mutants' proclamation, the PF had taken notice and kick-started things from afar via Hope and the Lights. When the PF reached Earth it intended to use Hope / the Lights to re-ignite (pardon the pun) the mutant race and restore the natural order. Unit stated that this very thing had happened successfully before. Given this, perhaps that's why Hope appeared to be unable to cope with the PF on the moon, since the Lights were not present to act in whatever role they were meant to.

Of course, given it was Unit saying all this, he could have been lying (though at the time I couldn't see a reason why he'd need to). If it was all true then, to me, it lends a bit of weight to the idea that Hope was nearly ready, but one final 'thing' was not quite in place. The Avenger training thankfully provided that piece given Kun Lun's previous experience with tackling the Phoenix.

It's a theory anyway!

@Daycrawler said:

@TheCrowbar said:

@VampireSelektor: Her time with Cable was her training for just her learning how to control her powers on Utopia. Again my criticism is not the who of who trained Hope. But the length of time, to day Hope's training with Spiderman is the thing that made her able to handle the power of the Phoenix force is laughable.

I kinda read it as Hope pretty much having all the ability, training and skills she needed to handle the Phoenix Force, just not the confidence or disciplined attitude. K'un Lun/Iron Fist gave her the discipline and Spidey the confidence/conviction. It was like, she's almost ready but just needed that last 5% whatever to get her there. Didn't read it as the Avengers were starting from day one with her at all. That was my kinda take on it anyways.

Also, people seem to forget that Unit (in Gillen's UXM tie-ins) seems to have purposefully derailed Hope's path to becoming the PF host. If I remember correctly, he planned things so the the Lights were taken out of the game / kept in the dark as to their apparent role in things. He said that due to the natural imbalance created by Wanda's 'No more mutants' proclamation, the PF had taken notice and kick-started things from afar via Hope and the Lights. When the PF reached Earth it intended to use Hope / the Lights to re-ignite (pardon the pun) the mutant race and restore the natural order. Unit stated that this very thing had happened successfully before. Given this, perhaps that's why Hope appeared to be unable to cope with the PF on the moon, since the Lights were not present to act in whatever role they were meant to.

Of course, given it was Unit saying all this, he could have been lying (though at the time I couldn't see a reason why he'd need to). If it was all true then, to me, it lends a bit of weight to the idea that Hope was nearly ready, but one final 'thing' was not quite in place. The Avenger training thankfully provided that piece given Kun Lun's previous experience with tackling the Phoenix.

It's a theory anyway!

Dude that is a great observation, if Spidey gave her Confidence, Iron Fist gave her Discipline, wanda gave her some sort of method of release couldn't the lights been originally meant to fill this void, they followed her supported her, made her more confident, blah blah yadda yadda. Yea I could see that as being a great line of thinking, good concept bro mad props

@Daycrawler said:

@TheCrowbar said:

@VampireSelektor: Her time with Cable was her training for just her learning how to control her powers on Utopia. Again my criticism is not the who of who trained Hope. But the length of time, to day Hope's training with Spiderman is the thing that made her able to handle the power of the Phoenix force is laughable.

I kinda read it as Hope pretty much having all the ability, training and skills she needed to handle the Phoenix Force, just not the confidence or disciplined attitude. K'un Lun/Iron Fist gave her the discipline and Spidey the confidence/conviction. It was like, she's almost ready but just needed that last 5% whatever to get her there. Didn't read it as the Avengers were starting from day one with her at all. That was my kinda take on it anyways.

Also, people seem to forget that Unit (in Gillen's UXM tie-ins) seems to have purposefully derailed Hope's path to becoming the PF host. If I remember correctly, he planned things so the the Lights were taken out of the game / kept in the dark as to their apparent role in things. He said that due to the natural imbalance created by Wanda's 'No more mutants' proclamation, the PF had taken notice and kick-started things from afar via Hope and the Lights. When the PF reached Earth it intended to use Hope / the Lights to re-ignite (pardon the pun) the mutant race and restore the natural order. Unit stated that this very thing had happened successfully before. Given this, perhaps that's why Hope appeared to be unable to cope with the PF on the moon, since the Lights were not present to act in whatever role they were meant to.

Of course, given it was Unit saying all this, he could have been lying (though at the time I couldn't see a reason why he'd need to). If it was all true then, to me, it lends a bit of weight to the idea that Hope was nearly ready, but one final 'thing' was not quite in place. The Avenger training thankfully provided that piece given Kun Lun's previous experience with tackling the Phoenix.

It's a theory anyway!

Excellent point.

@McKlayn@VampireSelektor

Thanks guys!