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    Cyclops

    Character » Cyclops appears in 11209 issues.

    The first X-Man, Scott Summers possesses the mutant ability to fire powerful concussive blasts through his eyes that act as a portal to another dimension full of the force that makes up his optic blast. He is visually distinctive for the ruby quartz visor he wears to control his devastating power. A born leader, Cyclops succeeded his mentor Professor X to command the X-Men.

    Cyclops was wrong.

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    soduh2

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    #51  Edited By soduh2

    @80sBaby said:

    Killing Xavier was NOT "self-defense." Charles was not a threat to Cyclops, who had the entire PF empowering him. That's like saying me killing a 10-year-old who attacks me with a stick is self-defense. Just stop it. The only thing Cyke was correct about was that the Phoenix could be used to re-populate the mutant "race." His methods, however, were completely wrong. That's the point. Neither side was totally right/wrong but you can't tell some Cyclops supporters that. I'd also like to point out that, had Cable suceeded in taking out the Avengers or if Cap listened to Cyke and left Utopia, then Hope would've most likely been possesed by the PF on the moon, which would lead to the dark future Bishop comes from.

    The most powerful telepath in the world is putting a phoenix host under mental stress while he's being attacked by the Avengers and X-men en masse (who were trying to kill him). It is self-defense.

    EDIT: I guess we'll see who was right, Cable (and blaquesmith) or Bishop because they seem to interpret the possible futures differently.

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    80sBaby

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    #52  Edited By 80sBaby

    @soduh2: The "most powerful telepath in the world" is still NOTHING compared to the PF. That's the point of the "self-defense" argument. You have to legitimately fear for your safety (or the safety of others) in order for it to apply. Scott was NEVER in any real danger from Charles or the Avengers. He was just annoyed by them. Now, if Charles and the Avengers had actually been shown doing any kind of real damage to Cyke, then you'd have a point.

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    soduh2

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    #53  Edited By soduh2

    @80sBaby said:

    @soduh2: The "most powerful telepath in the world" is still NOTHING compared to the PF. That's the point of the "self-defense" argument. You have to legitimately fear for your safety (or the safety of others) in order for it to apply. Scott was NEVER in any real danger from Charles or the Avengers. He was just annoyed by them. Now, if Charles and the Avengers had actually been shown doing any kind of real damage to Cyke, then you'd have a point.

    The most powerful telepath in the world vs. half the phoenix force, on the other hand his life may have been in danger. Cyclops was being attacked on two fronts, his life and his control. After he took the Phoenix force from Emma, his control was still being compromised, although his life was no longer in danger. Which is why he warned the professor to "leave him alone or else he'll do something he did not want to do".

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    80sBaby

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    #54  Edited By 80sBaby

    @soduh2: Even half of the PF is much, much, MUCH more powerful than Prof. X. Again, in order to make a claim of "self-defense" then Cyclops life would've needed to be in jeopardy, which it wasn't (as you just admitted.) Cyke losing control was happening prior to him gaining Emma's portion of the Phoenix Force and had nothing to do with the Avengers interference.

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    dernman

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    #55  Edited By dernman
    @80sBaby: Not to mention Cyclops could have left and not be in danger.
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    80sBaby

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    #56  Edited By 80sBaby

    @Dernman: Exactly. The Pro-Cyke crowd would be better off arguing tempoary insanity as opposed to self-defense. But, since he doesn't regret his actions that might not work, either.

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    Xorion

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    #57  Edited By Xorion
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    VesKaGan

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    #58  Edited By VesKaGan
    No Caption Provided

    How is THIS not self-defense?

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    John Valentine

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    #59  Edited By John Valentine

    @Sufferthorn said:

    In the end....Cyclops supporters don't have much of a justification for the murder he is responsible except for "Wanda did it!".

    Ever heard the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right?".

    Well Cyclops isn't right.

    Cyclops didn't rewrite the fabric of reality on a whim to get his fake children back.

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    sw04ca

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    #60  Edited By sw04ca

    @Dernman: Could he have left? They seemed to be pursuing him all over the Earth. I think that self-defence against a fellow trying to turn off your brain is a legitimate use of deadly force.

    Now, that being said, I don't think that saying that Cyclops isn't as bad as the morally abominable Scarlet Witch is really a winning strategy. Cyclops must stand or fall on his own merits, not because Wanda Maximoff is an utter monster.

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    dernman

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    #61  Edited By dernman
    @sw04ca said:

    @Dernman: Could he have left? They seemed to be pursuing him all over the Earth. I think that self-defence against a fellow trying to turn off your brain is a legitimate use of deadly force.

    Now, that being said, I don't think that saying that Cyclops isn't as bad as the morally abominable Scarlet Witch is really a winning strategy. Cyclops must stand or fall on his own merits, not because Wanda Maximoff is an utter monster.

    Yes he could have. He could have instantly been on the other side of the world and picked them off one by one without killing them. Then deal with the only ones who were any way a threat to him was Wanda and Hope together whom showed no signs of going as far as Xavier. So ya he could have ran and no it's not self defense against a man from trying to turn your brain off when it's already been established that Xavier didn't have the power to do so. So that's not an excuse.  
     
    The only excuse he has is the fact he was possessed by the PF and if you use that with him you have to use that with Wanda who was possessed with the Life Force.
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    sw04ca

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    #62  Edited By sw04ca

    @Dernman: Being in multiple places at once didn't seem to get him any peace during UXM19. Xavier definitely seemed to have some level of power against the Phoenix, and Scott seemed to be in some distress. There's no reason to believe that Xavier posed no threat at all to Scott, albeit not the Phoenix force itself. And possession is very rarely an excuse. It certainly wasn't in the case of Scott, as his reacions were rational for himself, but not for the Phoenix Force. Xavier was trying to shut him down so that Wolverine and friends could kill him, and seemed to be having some sort of an effect. Scott put a stop to it and defended his own life.

    If you want to bring up Wanda, then possession isn't an excuse for her either. She just cold-bloodedly committed genocide to get back at her father.

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    80sBaby

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    #63  Edited By 80sBaby

    @VesKaGan said:

    No Caption Provided

    How is THIS not self-defense?

    SMH

    It's not because his life wasn't in any actual danger and he knew it. Scott didn't kill the Professor because he feared Charles would kill him. He did it because he (Scott) was angry and lashed out.

    @sw04ca said:

    @Dernman: Could he have left? They seemed to be pursuing him all over the Earth. I think that self-defence against a fellow trying to turn off your brain is a legitimate use of deadly force.

    No, it's not. Not when the person in question, Charles, has ZERO chance of actually harming Scott.

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    xeon1cs

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    #64  Edited By xeon1cs

    @80sBaby said:

    Killing Xavier was NOT "self-defense." Charles was not a threat to Cyclops, who had the entire PF empowering him. That's like saying me killing a 10-year-old who attacks me with a stick is self-defense. Just stop it. The only thing Cyke was correct about was that the Phoenix could be used to re-populate the mutant "race." His methods, however, were completely wrong. That's the point. Neither side was totally right/wrong but you can't tell some Cyclops supporters that. I'd also like to point out that, had Cable suceeded in taking out the Avengers or if Cap listened to Cyke and left Utopia, then Hope would've most likely been possesed by the PF on the moon, which would lead to the dark future Bishop comes from.

    Killing Xavier WAS self-defense. I don't understand how you can see it any other way. Again, Hellfire Club did the same thing to Jean, she flipped out, lost it and went Dark Phoenix. You don't try to mentally shut down a Phoenix Avatar. You'd think Xavier of all people would know that.

    I mean...they made it pretty clear during Jean's time as Dark Phoenix that, that's probably the ONE thing you don't attempt to do.

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    imperial90

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    #65  Edited By imperial90

    @80sBaby: Because we don't have any examples of telepaths screwing with the mind of the Phoenix, certainly that wasn't what the most famous X-men story line ever was about.........

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    80sBaby

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    #66  Edited By 80sBaby

    @sw04ca said:

    @Dernman: Being in multiple places at once didn't seem to get him any peace during UXM19. Xavier definitely seemed to have some level of power against the Phoenix, and Scott seemed to be in some distress. There's no reason to believe that Xavier posed no threat at all to Scott, albeit not the Phoenix force itself. And possession is very rarely an excuse. It certainly wasn't in the case of Scott, as his reacions were rational for himself, but not for the Phoenix Force. Xavier was trying to shut him down so that Wolverine and friends could kill him, and seemed to be having some sort of an effect. Scott put a stop to it and defended his own life.

    If you want to bring up Wanda, then possession isn't an excuse for her either. She just cold-bloodedly committed genocide to get back at her father.

    Again, not self-defense if your life's never in danger.

    And Wanda was actually insane, as depicted in HoM and Children's Crusade. After she was cured, she regrets her actions. Scott, OTOH, has said he'd do everything again. He only regrets killing Xavier. Nothing else.

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    80sBaby

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    #67  Edited By 80sBaby

    @xeon1cs said:

    @80sBaby said:

    Killing Xavier was NOT "self-defense." Charles was not a threat to Cyclops, who had the entire PF empowering him. That's like saying me killing a 10-year-old who attacks me with a stick is self-defense. Just stop it. The only thing Cyke was correct about was that the Phoenix could be used to re-populate the mutant "race." His methods, however, were completely wrong. That's the point. Neither side was totally right/wrong but you can't tell some Cyclops supporters that. I'd also like to point out that, had Cable suceeded in taking out the Avengers or if Cap listened to Cyke and left Utopia, then Hope would've most likely been possesed by the PF on the moon, which would lead to the dark future Bishop comes from.

    Killing Xavier WAS self-defense. I don't understand how you can see it any other way. Again, Hellfire Club did the same thing to Jean, she flipped out, lost it and went Dark Phoenix. You don't try to mentally shut down a Phoenix Avatar. You'd think Xavier of all people would know that.

    I mean...they made it pretty clear during Jean's time as Dark Phoenix that, that's probably the ONE thing you don't attempt to do.

    Really? How was Scott's life in jeopardy? Who amongst the heroes gathered was capable of harming him?

    Answer: No one. Therefore, not self-defense.

    @imperial90 said:

    @80sBaby: Because we don't have any examples of telepaths screwing with the mind of the Phoenix, certainly that wasn't what the most famous X-men story line ever was about.........

    Mastermind manipulated Jean, yes but he caught her in a moment of weakness (unlike Scott vs. Charles) and, when she chose to, she easily resisted his influence. Mastermind didn't tell her to kill the Shi'ar, did he? No. Nice try, though...

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    dernman

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    #68  Edited By dernman
    @sw04ca

    Being in multiple places at once didn't seem to get him any peace during UXM19.  


    Who's talking about doing that. 


    Xavier definitely seemed to have some level of power against the Phoenix, and Scott seemed to be in some distress.


    No he did not. He didn't even have the same level of power as him when he had only half the power. Scott was even talking to Emma about that very fact in the mindscape and that's all the while dealing with the Avengers, X-Men. It was for that reason only that Xavior wasn't simply brushed off. The only threat to him was Hope and Wanda together.

     There's no reason to believe that Xavier posed no threat at all to Scott, albeit not the Phoenix force itself.  

    Yes there was. The conversation between Emma anc Scott pretty much said so and that was when he had only half the power. 

    And possession is very rarely an excuse.It certainly wasn't in the case of Scott, as his reacions were rational for himself, but not for the Phoenix Force.  

     That's simply not true. When something is beyond your control, normal behavior it definitely an excuse. The only question is how much was the possession and how much is the person.
     

    Xavier was trying to shut him down so that Wolverine and friends could kill him, and seemed to be having some sort of an effect. Scott put a stop to it and defended his own life.

    Again Xavier didn't have the power to do that and saying he was doing it so Wolverine an friends could kill him is an outright lie. 
    If Xavier some how did shut him down (which he couldn't do) there would have been no need to kill him because the PF would have left him like it did. 


    If you want to bring up Wanda, then possession isn't an excuse for her either. She just cold-bloodedly committed genocide to get back at her father.

    I didn't bring Wanda into it. You did. Again it is an excuse because of the reason I already gave you. It also was more then just about getting back at her father. That's a false statement. It's also a statement that ignores the fact she was possessed and wouldn't have done it if she wasn't under the Life Forces influence.  Not to mention that Genocide is  "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" She didn't deliberately kill anyone. She erased a gene. The people would have still lived and any deaths as a result were not deliberate.
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    xeon1cs

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    #69  Edited By xeon1cs

    @80sBaby: Uh...Xavier was clearly effecting Scotts mind. He took Emma's half of the PF to stop him.

    You know your life doesn't have to be in jeopardy for it to be self-defense, right?

    And again, xavier of all people should know you don't attempt that.

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    80sBaby

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    #70  Edited By 80sBaby

    @xeon1cs said:

    @80sBaby: Uh...Xavier was clearly effecting Scotts mind. He took Emma's half of the PF to stop him.

    You know your life doesn't have to be in jeopardy for it to be self-defense, right?

    And again, xavier of all people should know you don't attempt that.

    He killed Xavier AFTER he took the PF from Emma. Are you claiming Charles was affecting his mind then?

    And, if your life's not in danger then you'd need to be defending another person to have self-defense apply. Scott's life wasn't in danger and he wasn't protecting anyone else's life, either.

    So, no, self-defense doesn't apply here.

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    dernman

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    #71  Edited By dernman
    @xeon1cs said:

    @80sBaby: Uh...Xavier was clearly effecting Scotts mind. He took Emma's half of the PF to stop him.

    You know your life doesn't have to be in jeopardy for it to be self-defense, right?

    And again, xavier of all people should know you don't attempt that.

    No he wasn't Scott even said so in the conversation with Emma that the PF was much more then Xavier. There were many more factor that effected Scott. 
    Like the fact he was dealing with the X-Men, Avenger, learning his love cheated on him, dealing with the real threats of Hope/Wanda. That was all being done on half strength. So no Xavier was nothing.
    Your life does have to be in jeopardy if you claim self-defense as an excuse after killing someone you do.  
    Your third point was already addressed by 80sbaby.
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    xeon1cs

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    #72  Edited By xeon1cs

    @80sBaby said:

    @xeon1cs said:

    @80sBaby: Uh...Xavier was clearly effecting Scotts mind. He took Emma's half of the PF to stop him.

    You know your life doesn't have to be in jeopardy for it to be self-defense, right?

    And again, xavier of all people should know you don't attempt that.

    He killed Xavier AFTER he took the PF from Emma. Are you claiming Charles was affecting his mind then?

    And, if your life's not in danger then you'd need to be defending another person to have self-defense apply. Scott's life wasn't in danger and he wasn't protecting anyone else's life, either.

    So, no, self-defense doesn't apply here.

    Where did I claim Charles was affecting his mind afterwards? I clearly stated he took Emma's half to stop him, since he was being affected prior.

    In Uncanny X-Men and AvX, Scott and Emma comment on how Charles is affecting their minds. He obviously wasn't 100% useless.

    @Dernman ^

    They discussed how Charles was affecting them in Uncanny. Stating the Phoenix Force was bigger than him is 100% irrelevant, they were still being affected.

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    80sBaby

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    #73  Edited By 80sBaby

    @xeon1cs said:

    @80sBaby said:

    @xeon1cs said:

    @80sBaby: Uh...Xavier was clearly effecting Scotts mind. He took Emma's half of the PF to stop him.

    You know your life doesn't have to be in jeopardy for it to be self-defense, right?

    And again, xavier of all people should know you don't attempt that.

    He killed Xavier AFTER he took the PF from Emma. Are you claiming Charles was affecting his mind then?

    And, if your life's not in danger then you'd need to be defending another person to have self-defense apply. Scott's life wasn't in danger and he wasn't protecting anyone else's life, either.

    So, no, self-defense doesn't apply here.

    Where did I claim Charles was affecting his mind afterwards? I clearly stated he took Emma's half to stop him, since he was being affected prior.

    In Uncanny X-Men and AvX, Scott and Emma comment on how Charles is affecting their minds. He obviously wasn't 100% useless.

    You're claiming Cyclops killed Xavier in self-defense. Since he didn't kill Charles until AFTER he gained the full PF then you'd HAVE TO be saying that Charles was a threat AFTER Cyke took the PF from Emma. This really isn't that complicated.

    I didn't say he was "useless." I said he wasn't a threat, which he wasn't. Can you show me any scans/examples of Scott stating that he was worried Xavier might kill him/shut him down? No.

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    xeon1cs

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    #74  Edited By xeon1cs

    @80sBaby: He took Emmas half to defend himself, and stop Charles.

    Uh...Scott was clearly being put on his knees by Charles affecting his mind. And in Uncanny X-Men, both he and Emma show that they're being affected by Charles, even commenting how "Xavier has taken over my active mind."

    He was obviously a threat to them at the time.

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    dernman

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    #75  Edited By dernman
    @xeon1cs said:


    They discussed how Charles was affecting them in Uncanny. Stating the Phoenix Force was bigger than him is 100% irrelevant, they were still being affected.

    No that's not true. They were discussing in the mindscape how Charles  incorrectly thought he could shut them down because Prof-X wasn't grasping how much beyond the PF is from Xavier. So in no way is it irrelevant. Again no it wasn't just Xavier. You are ignoring the things that were effecting Scott that I already stated.
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    dernman

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    #76  Edited By dernman
    @xeon1cs said:

    @80sBaby: He took Emmas half to defend himself, and stop Charles.

    Uh...Scott was clearly being put on his knees by Charles affecting his mind. And in Uncanny X-Men, both he and Emma show that they're being affected by Charles, even commenting how "Xavier has taken over my active mind."

    He was obviously a threat to them at the time.

    Oh sure just completely ignore everything that's actually going on there. 
      
    Edit: The bold goes to show you how both you and Xavier failed to understand what Scott had become at that point. That's part of what Scott was talking about.
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    imperial90

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    #77  Edited By imperial90

    @80sBaby: So Mastermind poking around inside the Phoenix's head drove it insane and caused it to wipe out a planet of broccoli people, Xavier does it and it kills him in response and goes off on a global rampage, I'm seeing a pattern here. Killing a planet of Broccoli people certainly wasn't masterminds plan either, they wanted to control the Phoenix, not drive it nuts. I'm not quite sure how you can think someone isn't going through a moment of weakness when everyone they ever considered an ally has just turned on them and one of them was trying to shut down your brain while speaking to you like a dog. Seriously, Cap and Xavier are like the worst negotiators ever, when you think someone's mentally unstable you don't get them to calm down by telling them your ashamed of them.....

    In either case we have an example of a telepath threatening the Phoenix's well being, Scott's seen it, the Phoenix has experienced it before, feeling threatened by it is completely natural, and not appreciating it just as.

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    Sufferthorn

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    #78  Edited By Sufferthorn

    @imperial90:

    .....Yes.

    And i'm saying the "Cyclops was right" drones use Wanda as a justification for his behavior. When there IS no justification.

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    SUNMAN

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    #79  Edited By SUNMAN

    it's a crazy day when Wolverine is the moral compass for the X-men

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    JairamGanpat

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    #80  Edited By JairamGanpat

    ahem, crime of passion

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    sw04ca

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    #81  Edited By sw04ca

    @80sBaby: Seems to me that his life was in danger.

    And insanity is no excuse either. People are responsible for their actions, no matter their mental state. Scott is responsible for killing Xavier, just as Wanda is responsible for killing any mutants who were physiologically dependent on their mutation (Gazer, for example), and bears partial responsibility for what happened as a consequence of her actions.

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    time1

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    #82  Edited By time1

    @DATNIGGA said:

    @acer51 said:

    He said he'd do it all again, meaning he'd kill Charles and the millions of people, just so he can bring back the mutants. The mutants arn't going to want those powers, there going to be feared and hunted. Cyclops just created loads of peril for an insane dream to bring progress to the so called "next step in human evolution".

    What was the point of all this madness huh? What good did it do, Cyclops may have gotten what he wanted but lets not pretend he did anyone any favors.

    All he did was bring the world into chaos with his war. Now thanks to him teenagers are going to burn in sentinel lazier because the "true mutant messiahs" Cyclops brought the mutants back.

    So answer me this Viners? what good did Cyclops do?

    He brought back his race... thats what good he did. if you where a mutant and your race was hunted & currently on the brink of extinction would you let that go give up & die?

    He was right

    because the Phoenix's whole point for being there was to bring the mutants back... anyone who reads x men properly would know that the PF doesnt want to blow up the earth because most of the time its there to posses a mutant.. of some kind.

    also sir... you seem to be missing a few key points to this

    #1 Cyke wouldnt even have been Phoenix host had ironman not impulsively blow up the entity & spit it.

    #2 the P5 brought peace to earth the avengers kept attacking them & then they sought to destroy the avengers who were ultimately disturbing the peace (and the ones who started this entire war)

    #3 Professor X's death is his own fault. teacher or not i wouldn't let someone erase my mind without a fight. & thats with a normal mindstate... how would someone with a Phoenix mind state take a consistent telepathic assault backed by a physical assault from the avengers?

    Cyke would do it all again.

    Cause he would sacrifice everything for the lives of his people... hes a revolutionary who is not a afraid to get his hands dirty. he has brought his people through horrible times because hes a strong leader if Professor have led the x men during these times mutants would be dead by now

    He was right from the beginning had Cap not attacked him mutants could have been back w/o all this bloodshed but you know cap... hes always right simply because hes captain america

    he didn't though, it was hope and scarlet witch that save mutant race.

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    DATNIGGA

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    #83  Edited By DATNIGGA

    @time: If he hadn't done what he did they wouldn't have even gotten to that point....

    without Cyke the avengers would have took hope off world that would have led to multiple problems

    wolverine could have killed her,

    that planet that they took her too would have blown up & been destroyed & hope wouldn't have gotten that ''letting go'' speech from wanda which resulted in more mutants....

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    PassionFlower

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    #84  Edited By PassionFlower

    @sw04ca said:

    @80sBaby: Seems to me that his life was in danger.

    And insanity is no excuse either. People are responsible for their actions, no matter their mental state. Scott is responsible for killing Xavier, just as Wanda is responsible for killing any mutants who were physiologically dependent on their mutation (Gazer, for example), and bears partial responsibility for what happened as a consequence of her actions.

    I love Wanda but I can agree with this and throw Namor in the pot too. But I am inclined to give Wanda more a pass if passes are given.

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    Pyrogram

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    #85  Edited By Pyrogram

    @sw04ca: This, you have to take responsibility. He knew he was wrong, he could have stopped IMO

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    x_29

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    #86  Edited By x_29

    We are still talking about this?

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    maddpanda

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    #87  Edited By maddpanda

    @TheCrowbar: NO WAY PROREG IS THE WAY TO GO

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    trutrutru

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    #88  Edited By trutrutru

    @80sBaby:

    You're claiming Cyclops killed Xavier in self-defense. Since he didn't kill Charles until AFTER he gained the full PF then you'd HAVE TO be saying that Charles was a threat AFTER Cyke took the PF from Emma. This really isn't that complicated.

    no..its not complicated...but your certainly over simplifying things.

    Cyclops said to Xavier that "they" (the avengers) were trying to kill them. So for starters. He WAS under the impression they were going to kill him. Secondly, Professor X was trying to shut his mind down. I dont care who you are, nobody wants that. Especially when Xavier has been known to erase people's memories.

    with those facts in mind...cyclops was threatened enough to take the other half of the Phoenix force to defend himself. He was already being influenced by the Phoenix. With its full power, the influence grows to a point where what little control he did have, is now gone.

    He didnt just decide to kill Xavier. The Phoenix's influence had everything to do with it. Even with half the Phoenix's power, he was telling and warning Xavier to stop and not force his hand.

    So the point is here...he was possessed by a force too powerful to control....he told Xavier to stop repeatedly, and he didnt. He was driven to take the rest of the Phoenix force in order to stop Xavier and the Avengers. He was pushed to it. He was already not in full control. What do you think is gonna happen when you launch an all out assault on the man?

    I didn't say he was "useless." I said he wasn't a threat, which he wasn't. Can you show me any scans/examples of Scott stating that he was worried Xavier might kill him/shut him down? No

    Does not cyclops telling him to get out of his head after Xavier tells him he's shutting him down count for anything? If Xavier was no threat, what would cyclops care? Why would he need the extra power of the other half of the Phoenix force?

    Even before the fighting, cyclops told Xavier he wasnt going to let him ruin his plans.....now why would he say that..if he thought Xavier was such a non factor

    why would cyclops worry enough to do something as desperate as taking his own girlfriend down, just to take the full force of the Phoenix????........he felt threatened.....he knew Xavier was trying to shut his mind down....and was under the belief the Avengers were trying to kill him

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    trutrutru

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    #89  Edited By trutrutru

    @time:

    he didn't though, it was hope and scarlet witch that save mutant race.

    Was it not cyclops who wanted Hope to get the power of the Phoenix in the first place?....did the Avengers not want to stop that from even happening?...had the Avengers succeeded in that, mutants would not have been repopulated.

    As for Wanada...yes..she did help....but before this event, we were shown proof of mutants popping right after Hope killed Bastion, which showed her tapping into the Phoenix force to do it. Almost immediately after that, a couple mutants (the lights) popped up.

    If that what happens by just her tapping into the power of the Phoenix, then her having the full power would have done the same thing, although at a much slower rate than it was achieved with Wanda dispersing it.

    So technically, Hope wasn't exactly needed for the re-population of mutants.

    Which would have been best for this situation, considering how humans are treating these new mutants. A slower introduction may have been better overall for human and mutant relations

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    Med

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    #90  Edited By Med

    everyone claims that cyclops wasn't responsible for his actions yet they still call him 'right'. he didn't know what the phoenix had in store. he thought it was going to bring mutants back but it didn't. the phoenix 5 sat there dictating peace and attacking avengers, but why did they not BRING the mutants back? which was their entire initial goal? sure, they had all this power and they said "hey, lets make the world nicer" and they did, but who did they make it nice for? why did they have to wait for Hope to take the Phoenix if they had all that power? why did they need Wanda to help her if they were the phoenix five? Scott went ahead and told hope that she could leave anytime. when Wanda came to take her away and they only thing in the way of more mutants was the Phoenix 5, Scott tried to stop Hope from going with her. he then did everything in his Phoenix-y power to bring her back. from the get go he had been corrupted. he had forgotten why he anticipated the Phoenix in the first place. Illyana explained it nicely, they were poor vessels for infinity. Xavier knew all that. he had seen it with Jean and she had done a better job. When she went Dark Phoenix, Xavier tried to stop her and what did she do? she helped him. she fought against the phoenix. what did Scott do? he killed him. and the last shred of proof? Jean, who is the perfect avatar of the Phoenix called him an idiot when he reached the White Hot Room. She told him that it had to stop during his fight with Wanda and Hope. and he just stood there crying like a moron. Havok summed it up nicely, Scott didn't care about bring back mutants, he just didn't want the home team to lose under his watch.

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    trutrutru

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    #91  Edited By trutrutru

    @Med:

    everyone claims that cyclops wasn't responsible for his actions yet they still call him 'right'. he didn't know what the phoenix had in store. he thought it was going to bring mutants back but it didn't.

    - In the end, the Phoenix did bring back mutants. Not only that, but the "LIGHTS" which were new mutants that appeared after the Wanda genocied, popped up after Hope was shown tapping into the Phoenix force. Just tapping into it, not even having to fully host it brought back some mutants. A safe assumption would be that her hosting it would have brought more.

    - The Phoenix had its host picked out. Regardless of what it had in store, it wasnt to harm the earth. Cause as we were shown, the Phoenix doesnt need a host to destroy planets and such. There being a host for it should have been enough of an indicator that nobody was in any harm. Common sense.

    the phoenix 5 sat there dictating peace and attacking avengers, but why did they not BRING the mutants back?which was their entire initial goal?

    corrupted by the power of the Phoenix...they had great intentions...but ultimately corrupted by a power and could not let it go. And it needed to be let go or given to Hope in order for it to bring mutants back. Not their fault. Avengers caused the phoenix 5.

    sure, they had all this power and they said "hey, lets make the world nicer" and they did, but who did they make it nice for? why did they have to wait for Hope to take the Phoenix if they had all that power?

    - they unselfishly made it nicer for everyone.

    - they needed her to have it because there was something within her that can combat Wanda's no more mutants spell. Something in her genes resists it. Not only that, she is responsible for the Lights appearing. So she is obviously the key.

    why did they need Wanda to help her if they were the phoenix five?

    wanda did help...but she wasnt needed. She helped mutants get restored by safely dispersing the phoenix force around the globe. But as i stated before, she was able to introduce new mutants just by tapping into the Phoenix power. So technically her just having the Phoenix could have restored mutants, although at a much slower pace than with wanda; given the current situation with human and mutant relations. A slower mutant restoration may have been better.

    Scott went ahead and told hope that she could leave anytime. when Wanda came to take her away and they only thing in the way of more mutants was the Phoenix 5, Scott tried to stop Hope from going with her. he then did everything in his Phoenix-y power to bring her back. from the get go he had been corrupted. he had forgotten why he anticipated the Phoenix in the first place. Illyana explained it nicely, they were poor vessels for infinity.

    like you said. the corruption probably started from jump...all the more reason why they cant be blamed. The avengers caused it; and because the corruption starts as soon as its given to them. They werent out of control from jump, but there was definitely something in place clouding their judgement.

    Xavier knew all that. he had seen it with Jean and she had done a better job. When she went Dark Phoenix, Xavier tried to stop her and what did she do? she helped him. she fought against the phoenix. what did Scott do? he killed him.

    Jean grey is a telepath. One of the strongest around. Basically her mind is powerful. Powerful enough to resist the phoenix force enough to help xavier out. Cyclops has a pretty strong mind for a non telepath. But if something like the phoenix could affect Jean that way, what hope does he have in completely fighting it off. You cant compare cyclops with jean because 1) she was the desired host for the phoenix; cyclops got it by accident 2) her mind is much stronger than his; she's a telepath

    and the last shred of proof? Jean, who is the perfect avatar of the Phoenix called him an idiot when he reached the White Hot Room. She told him that it had to stop during his fight with Wanda and Hope. and he just stood there crying like a moron

    what does that have to do with anything. He felt bad about how far things went. He was not in his right mind, and felt bad about killing xavier. He only now is at peace with it because in the end, Mutants were brought back. But at that time, not knowing that they would still bring mutants back, he felt regret.

    . Havok summed it up nicely, Scott didn't care about bring back mutants, he just didn't want the home team to lose under his watch.

    havok is a fool who doesnt take into account that any of cyclop's actions that represent his statement were all under the influence of the Phoenix. He was corrupted. period. Him standing up to the Avengers in the first place was very much about bringing back mutants and not letting the Avengers mess that up. Unfortunately the Avengers got him and 4 others hosted by a force they never wanted for themselves, and were ultimately influenced negatively by it.

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    Med

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    #92  Edited By Med

    - In the end, the Phoenix did bring back mutants. Not only that, but the "LIGHTS" which were new mutants that appeared after the Wanda genocied, popped up after Hope was shown tapping into the Phoenix force. Just tapping into it, not even having to fully host it brought back some mutants. A safe assumption would be that her hosting it would have brought more.

    - The Phoenix had its host picked out. Regardless of what it had in store, it wasnt to harm the earth. Cause as we were shown, the Phoenix doesnt need a host to destroy planets and such. There being a host for it should have been enough of an indicator that nobody was in any harm. Common sense.

    Scott didn't know that mutants were coming back. He wasn't right and he gets no credit for it. Why would you assume that having a host meant that every thing was OK? When an omega level telepath was its host, the Phoenix committed genocide. There being a host meant absolutely nothing.

    corrupted by the power of the Phoenix...they had great intentions...but ultimately corrupted by a power and could not let it go. And it needed to be let go or given to Hope in order for it to bring mutants back. Not their fault. Avengers caused the phoenix 5.

    so exactly what the avengers were afraid of and exactly what they warned Scott would happen happened and they are wrong for trying to stop it? that's not really fair.

    - they unselfishly made it nicer for everyone.

    - they needed her to have it because there was something within her that can combat Wanda's no more mutants spell. Something in her genes resists it. Not only that, she is responsible for the Lights appearing. So she is obviously the key.

    my problem wasn't why they made it nice. my problem is that they didn't think about all the mutants missing out on the niceness. they kind of just forgot about it. Cyke went and waved the Phoenix in Hopes face, mocking her about being too young. if she is so obviously the key, why didn't he hand that power over and do what was best for the mutants? He was only thinking about the mutantless world in front of him. And he was thinking about it in indefinite terms, like he had no plans to ever give Hope the power to do what only she could do.

    also, i think the lights appeared because the phoenix re-sparked evolution. hope just stabilized their powers.

    wanda did help...but she wasnt needed. She helped mutants get restored by safely dispersing the phoenix force around the globe. But as i stated before, she was able to introduce new mutants just by tapping into the Phoenix power. So technically her just having the Phoenix could have restored mutants, although at a much slower pace than with wanda; given the current situation with human and mutant relations. A slower mutant restoration may have been better.

    If all it took was tapping into the phoenix's powers, then why didn't the phoenix five just do that? and now you're blaming wanda for bringing mutants back? some part of me think you cyclops types just don't want them back ;)

    like you said. the corruption probably started from jump...all the more reason why they cant be blamed. The avengers caused it; and because the corruption starts as soon as its given to them. They werent out of control from jump, but there was definitely something in place clouding their judgement.

    i think this is my biggest problem with your argument and a lot of my past and up coming points rely on this opinion. the corruption of the phoenix doesn't immediately get you. with jean, she was a hero. she healed the makran crystal and saved everything that exists and that wasn't even her. that was the phoenix itself acting the way she would. she did so much as herself. and i really want you to understand this. it wasn't the Phoenix and therefore immune to corruption. It was essentially Jean and she did so much without being corrupted, so how come the phoenix five were corrupted from the get go? my guess is that they weren't.

    Jean grey is a telepath. One of the strongest around. Basically her mind is powerful. Powerful enough to resist the phoenix force enough to help xavier out. Cyclops has a pretty strong mind for a non telepath. But if something like the phoenix could affect Jean that way, what hope does he have in completely fighting it off. You cant compare cyclops with jean because 1) she was the desired host for the phoenix; cyclops got it by accident 2) her mind is much stronger than his; she's a telepath

    Emma Frost is also an omega level telepath and hers was one of the darkest corruptions in my opinion. Being a telepath isn't what helped Jean, she was just a stronger, juster person than Scott. Also, Jean wasn't destined to be the Phoenix' host. She wasn't born into that destiny like Hope. The Phoenix just realized what she could do and wanted to feel that. The Phoenix lives through its hosts personalities not the other way around. The flaws were in the Phoenix Five's personalities to start with.

    what does that have to do with anything. He felt bad about how far things went. He was not in his right mind, and felt bad about killing xavier. He only now is at peace with it because in the end, Mutants were brought back. But at that time, not knowing that they would still bring mutants back, he felt regret.

    Jean didn't say 'your intentions were good but a bad thing happened to you". she condemned Scott himself. His choices and execution. Not the Phoenix. Scott. As the perfect host of the Phoenix, i think she knows a thing or two about where the blame goes.

    havok is a fool who doesnt take into account that any of cyclop's actions that represent his statement were all under the influence of the Phoenix. He was corrupted. period. Him standing up to the Avengers in the first place was very much about bringing back mutants and not letting the Avengers mess that up. Unfortunately the Avengers got him and 4 others hosted by a force they never wanted for themselves, and were ultimately influenced negatively by it.

    as scott's brother and one of the oldest x-men, i think he knows a thing or two about where the blame goes.

    i totally respect you and that our opinions differ. thanks for letting me know what you thought.

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    McKlayn

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    #93  Edited By McKlayn

    @Med said:

    as scott's brother and one of the oldest x-men, i think he knows a thing or two about where the blame goes.

    i totally respect you and that our opinions differ. thanks for letting me know what you thought.

    Not getting into all this, but i do want to say Havok is a Mutant who spent the ENTIRE TIME of the decimation up in space fighting a war with Vulcan, HE KNOWS NOTHING about the struggles of the mutants after M day and during the decimation period, knows NOTHING about Hope, knows NOTHING about any current mutant events, he admitted so when he left both sides of the X men and joined X factor. Him and Polaris admittedly had no idea what was going on and just wanted to get away from it all to get their heads straight and figure out what was going on. Thus, i highly contest he is in the position to judge anyone who did anything as an affect of "no more mutants"

    No for gods sake can we let this damn topic (not just this thread but the 100 others spread out over these forums) die, we will not agree, we will not convince others to see it our way, there is two very different views and both insist they are right (although we all know cyclops was right in the pits of our stomach) and no matter how much typing or how many valid points either side make they will never come to an agreement, so agree to disagree and let the horse die in peace, we GOT ORIGINAL 5 x men in the present we need to be focusing on damn it!

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    trutrutru

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    #94  Edited By trutrutru

    @Med:

    Scott didn't know that mutants were coming back. He wasn't right and he gets no credit for it. Why would you assume that having a host meant that every thing was OK? When an omega level telepath was its host, the Phoenix committed genocide. There being a host meant absolutely nothing.

    When has the Phoenix ever harmed the earth?...it was coming straight for earth. And it had a host picked out. The Phoenix has been visiting the earth for ages. it has a known link with the mutant race on the planet. Why would it all of a sudden decide to destroy the earth? And if it wanted to destroy the earth...why would it need a host...certainly didnt need any destroying those planets on the way over..

    as for dark phoenix......that was exactly that....DARK PHOENIX. Why would there be any concern of the Phoenix finding its host when never has hosting the Phoenix ever resulted in an automatic transformation to the dark phoenix. Thats why there being a host is relevant. Because there being one meant the earth wasnt in any harm. Your Dark Phoenix concern is completely irrelevant.

    And jean grey only went dark phoenix due to mastermind messing with her head. She had successfully hosted the Phoenix without issue before then. Messing with the mind of a phoenix host is a definite no no. One would think Xavier would know this.

    so exactly what the avengers were afraid of and exactly what they warned Scott would happen happened and they are wrong for trying to stop it? that's not really fair.

    how were they right? THE AVENGERS CAUSED THE PHOENIX 5. Cyclops and the other 4 didnt ask for the power of the Phoenix. The avengers were afraid the Phoenix was going to destroy the earth...NEVER HAPPENED...even after it hosted the Phoenix 5...they didnt go out and destroy the planet....they actually tried to make it a better place....how in the world does that make the Avengers right?


    my problem wasn't why they made it nice. my problem is that they didn't think about all the mutants missing out on the niceness. they kind of just forgot about it. Cyke went and waved the Phoenix in Hopes face, mocking her about being too young. if she is so obviously the key, why didn't he hand that power over and do what was best for the mutants? He was only thinking about the mutantless world in front of him. And he was thinking about it in indefinite terms, like he had no plans to ever give Hope the power to do what only she could do.

    corruption by the Phoenix force???? . Cyclops possessed a power he coudnt release. He was under the influence. The phoenix has a mind of its own. It isnt just power, its a being. Hosting it will allow its being to impose some level of influence from jump...then more depending on the emotional and mental stability of the hosts.

    also, i think the lights appeared because the phoenix re-sparked evolution. hope just stabilized their powers.

    except that the phoenix was nowhere near. Its presence was channeled via Hope tapping into the Phoenix force. Given that in Hope's power was the ability to resist the damage cause by wanda....she was born a mutant...that is pre-phoenix...meaning within her lies the ability to beat Wanda's "spell". Its more likely that tapping into the Phoenix power enhanced this ability (as the phoenix has been known to do; enhance the abilities of of its host as well as grant new abilities). Sorry. There is just no evidence of what your saying being likely. The evidence leans heavily on it being Hope and not the Phoenix who was responsible for the lights.

    If all it took was tapping into the phoenix's powers, then why didn't the phoenix five just do that? and now you're blaming wanda for bringing mutants back? some part of me think you cyclops types just don't want them back ;)

    because only hope could restore the mutant population, because it was within her.

    She is the one able to resist wandas spell, and she was the one responsible for the lights.

    im not blaming wanda for mutants coming back.....in fact i dont even credit her as necessary in the process...just that a slower introduction would have been better than the planet being introduced to a large mutant population overnight. Which would have happened if Hope were to have kept the Phoenix.

    ...

    i think this is my biggest problem with your argument and a lot of my past and up coming points rely on this opinion. the corruption of the phoenix doesn't immediately get you. with jean, she was a hero. she healed the makran crystal and saved everything that exists and that wasn't even her. that was the phoenix itself acting the way she would. she did so much as herself. and i really want you to understand this. it wasn't the Phoenix and therefore immune to corruption. It was essentially Jean and she did so much without being corrupted, so how come the phoenix five were corrupted from the get go? my guess is that they weren't.

    probably because she was the proper host. The Phoenix picks a suitable host. These 5 werent chosen by the Phoenix. It wasnt meant for them, and was more than what they could handle. The Phoenix has its influence on you as soon as it hosts you. Just read any dialogue the hosts have right after taking the Phoenix on. They take on this god like way of speaking. Call it what you want. Point is, the Phoenix has a mind of its own, and when it hosts an individual, it has an influence on them. If you doubt what im saying, just read how all hosts act after taking the phoenix on, they are clearly not their regular selves.

    Emma Frost is also an omega level telepath and hers was one of the darkest corruptions in my opinion. Being a telepath isn't what helped Jean, she was just a stronger, juster person than Scott. Also, Jean wasn't destined to be the Phoenix' host. She wasn't born into that destiny like Hope. The Phoenix just realized what she could do and wanted to feel that. The Phoenix lives through its hosts personalities not the other way around. The flaws were in the Phoenix Five's personalities to start with.

    I agree with the idea that the characters personalities can make them more or less desirable as hosts. Emma is an example of someone who has the capacity of evil. She has done evil, even when good, she can be shady. Same could be said for Namor and Magik. Which explains why Emma, despite being a telepath was so easily corrupted, because she had the capacity for such things already, the corruption of the Phoenix did not have to dig deep to bring that out.

    No, jean may not have been born with the destiny of being the Phoenix host. But it doesnt change the fact that she was a CHOSEN host. She didnt accidentally get the phoenix, and it wasnt forced on her the way it was on the Phoenix 5.

    Jean didn't say 'your intentions were good but a bad thing happened to you". she condemned Scott himself. His choices and execution. Not the Phoenix. Scott. As the perfect host of the Phoenix, i think she knows a thing or two about where the blame goes.

    except that cyclops showed regret immediately after killing Professor Xavier. And in the final issue after the fight was done, a panel shows cyclops with his face in his hands, and text saying that even without his visor he sees what he has done.(basically inferring the regret he felt at that time)

    jean or the image of jean can say whatever she wants......but it doesnt take priority over what cyclops himself says or what is shown of him in reaction to xaviers death. Even Wolverine, who hates his guts, admits he knows cyclops never meant to kill xavier.

    as scott's brother and one of the oldest x-men, i think he knows a thing or two about where the blame goes.

    why would that make him any kind of authority in where the blame goes? He hasnt even had all that much experience with the Phoenix to be able to judge anyone for how they act under its influence. In a universe where its common for family to betray family, Havok being his brother doesnt give im any authority to judge, especially cause he has no clue what it feels like to either host the phoenix or even be romantically linked to someone who hosted it.

    i totally respect you and that our opinions differ. thanks for letting me know what you thought.

    its all good. Thanks for the discussion. I respect you and your opinions as well....we just dont see eye to eye on this one...lol

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    Med

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    #95  Edited By Med

    @trutrutru: haha, i can tell we're not going to convince each other. we could go on like this for days. lets just look forwards to what's in store. :)

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    #96  Edited By Crash_Recovery

    @acer51: I agree with pretty much everything you said.

    There's this sort of fan concept that Cyclops did something good by mutating innocent civilians. That this was worth all of the death he brought. I've been a fan of the character a long time (until the Utopia era) and I can't justify this. I can't imagine how blindly you have to follow him in order to see this as acceptable.

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    darthphoenix

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    #97  Edited By darthphoenix

    CHARLES was wrong.

    RACHEL was right. Charles and the Avengers should have listened to her. The Avengers didnt even considered Rachel was a Phoenix host for a loooooooooooooooong time. She was able to control it. Avengers just didnt want the x-men to be stronger than them.

    Cyke was hella RIGHT! Was it not for the Avengers, The Phoenix could have chosen a temporary host who can wield it's powers while hope is still in training. It could have been Scott or Rachel again. The world could have been a better place just like when the p5 was helping the people with their lives. But the The Avengers sure didnt want the x-men to steal their thunder.

    I still can't believe that super powered mutants didnt win a fight with captain america. duh?! Optic blasts that can level mountains should have at least thrown captain america from one side of the earth to another. this should be a not so new topic

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    xgirl

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    #98  Edited By xgirl

    ow for the love of god. both sides did stupid things durning this stupid event comic.can we just let this rest

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    antemiusenteri

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    #99  Edited By antemiusenteri

    @tahmidk: The son(and his mother) He abandoned .....?

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    fullmetalquach

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    #100  Edited By fullmetalquach

    You asked what good did he do because the new mutants will be hated and feared. They say being a mutant is the next step in human evolution, it unnaturally was put to an end almost on M-Day though and now it was knocked back on track thanks to the PF. Them being hated in feared is just brought about by the ignorance of nonmutants although the fear is somewhat understandable. I say somewhat because any psycho whether you have powers or not can get a weapon of some kind and hurt people and accidents can happen by and to good hearted people, but these are easier accomplished if you have the powers and dont need a physical weapon like a knife or gun. However kids getting killed by Sentinels for being mutants wouldnt be Cyclops' fault. It would be the fault of all of the ignorant bigots who hate mutants and want them killed. You said that the new mutants might not have had an X-gene until the PF came, but I feel like they just had dormant powers that wouldnt have surfaced if it wasnt for the Phoenix Force. I dont think the Phoenix was dispersed in a way that mutants were chosen at random, but the humans became mutants because they would have been mutants if M-Day didnt happen. I definitely wouldnt say his original intention was to kill Charles and millions of innocent people. Yes the phoenix corrupted him and yes thats a shitty argument, however it is a valid one. The whole "id do it again" thing sounds harsh. But from the mutant perspective he saved a species from extinction. And its not saving a species like the dodo bird, they are exactly like humans except they have powers. Do they need them? Probably not, but he still did a good thing. New mutants will help people overcome their hate overtime and thus making people better individuals and eventually you would hope that the non superhero mutants will use their abilities in a positive way. That obviously wont be seen anytime in our lifetime sue to story tellings sake. But realistically thats the potential it has. So what good did he do? He saved a species. Now you have to ask if you think the ends justifies the means.

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