wow... hot discussion here lol
didn't expect this to take off so well
M
The WeatherMan says:
"I was going to say I side with Captain America all the way. Why? Because, it's invading your privacy, they don't put on masks for themselves, they do it for their families, friends and loved ones, to protect them. The old way worked for so long, I have no idea why they would want to have them register. I'm anti. 1"
I think if you had to register to be a hero first place it would be a different story,but because these people have been doin it for so long and now the gov't comes along and thinks there going to run sh!t,that would piss me off too.It's just like the American government to do that and try to feel powerful over people with actual power.
Tony has a valid reason for supporting the act though.It's actually a really good one.The people that we are trying to save eveay have lost faith in them because of Stanford and they don't feel safe.If they were under gov't super vision the people could start feeling safe again and again they would be heroes not just some vigilanties.
speedlgt says:
"IN the end I say Dont trust anyone, I feel that most all people act in ways to help them no one else, Thus any person in power cant be trusted even the manger of fast food place. Anti all the way"
I wouldn't say most people act in a way that only helps them,but that's true for Tony Stark.
Well I guess I am kinda bad...I feel any person in the political arena is in it for power. I mean what other reason could it be? it cant be to help people if that was the case just help people in your own time on the street. (not for a paycheck) realy leaders lead not by choice but because they have to because no one else will or can. None of the political people in the US fit that classification.
Stark is the same way, he did for the power, he knew it would split the hero world but didnt care it was his way or no way. Thats a power trip. If he really wanted to help for real he should have done what happened in the What IF civil war but he didnt, now hes on top of the world and has minions at his command. and no captain to stand in his way.
But hell it made a good story.
Gambler says:
"I'm changing my mind again. I'd roll with the Thunderbolts."
That's the worse group to be in right now lol.They have those damn nanites in their boodstream,and Moonstone is there leader,it's one big mess.
Vance Astro says:
"Gambler says:"I'm changing my mind again. I'd roll with the Thunderbolts."That's the worse group to be in right now lol.They have those damn nanites in their boodstream,and Moonstone is there leader,it's one big mess."
Thats why I'd fit right in. Besides, Moonstone is crazy hot. (and just plain crazy)
speedlgt says:
"Well I guess I am kinda bad...I feel any person in the political arena is in it for power. I mean what other reason could it be? it cant be to help people if that was the case just help people in your own time on the street. (not for a paycheck) realy leaders lead not by choice but because they have to because no one else will or can. None of the political people in the US fit that classification. Stark is the same way, he did for the power, he knew it would split the hero world but didnt care it was his way or no way. Thats a power trip. If he really wanted to help for real he should have done what happened in the What IF civil war but he didnt, now hes on top of the world and has minions at his command. and no captain to stand in his way. But hell it made a good story."
I'm don't think STARK did this for the power.Alot of people under his command could turn into cream of Tony is he got out of hand.Ms.Marvel would probably be the first.
In the civil war itself I would be anti-reg because it has been handled very very poorly. In pure concept I would be pro-reg because it keeps people safer, holds the metas responsible for their actions, and makes them more legit all around. The thing is the throwing them in the negative zone and just plain killing them that I'm not okay with.
Vance Astro says:
"speedlgt says:"Well I guess I am kinda bad...I feel any person in the political arena is in it for power. I mean what other reason could it be? it cant be to help people if that was the case just help people in your own time on the street. (not for a paycheck) realy leaders lead not by choice but because they have to because no one else will or can. None of the political people in the US fit that classification. Stark is the same way, he did for the power, he knew it would split the hero world but didnt care it was his way or no way. Thats a power trip. If he really wanted to help for real he should have done what happened in the What IF civil war but he didnt, now hes on top of the world and has minions at his command. and no captain to stand in his way. But hell it made a good story."I'm don't think STARK did this for the power.Alot of people under his command could turn into cream of Tony is he got out of hand.Ms.Marvel would probably be the first."
I agree, I didn't see anything that showed Stark did it for the power. Maybe more of misguided by that vision he had.
Methos says:
"i actually agree with what Stark did... i found more respect for him as a character after reading Civil War... i don't agree with the imprisonment, but that's hand-in-hand with me not agreeing with the Death Row in Green Lantern at the moment. M"
Agreed.I always liked Tony but he became even more of a favorite after Civil War.
Methos says:
"randomly a god point was raised in humor by Metal Wolf in another thread...Metal Wolf says:"this should have been the focal point of Civil War. it's not about being liable for property damage, it's about being able to write-off those sweet costumes."now that they're registered with the government... does that mean the government pays them for they're heroic duties?
can the government censor they're language or costumes if deemed 'inappropriate' by the general public?
M"
Yeah they get a paycheck. I don't think they'd censor their language... they don't censor police officer's languages.. dunno about the costume thing. I think it'd be just silly unless they're running around nude with just a mask.
randomly a god point was raised in humor by Metal Wolf in another thread...
Metal Wolf says:
"this should have been the focal point of Civil War. it's not about being liable for property damage, it's about being able to write-off those sweet costumes."
now that they're registered with the government... does that mean the government pays them for they're heroic duties?
can the government censor they're language or costumes if deemed 'inappropriate' by the general public?
M
Methos says:
"randomly a god point was raised in humor by Metal Wolf in another thread... Metal Wolf says:"this should have been the focal point of Civil War. it's not about being liable for property damage, it's about being able to write-off those sweet costumes."now that they're registered with the government... does that mean the government pays them for they're heroic duties? can the government censor they're language or costumes if deemed 'inappropriate' by the general public? M"
Yes they get paid,and the only way they can censor their language is if they actually know they are saying these things.I don't think people call the gov't and rat on superheroes.They could probably censor the clothing but Ms.Marvel has the most inapropriate costume.I don't think they are going to tell her to wear something else.
I do think that heros deserve pay in some form. But there identites I don't know. I think they should register without giving there identities and stuff away but instead a way to contact them.
Anti-SHRA/Initiative.
For one thing, it wasn't that long ago that The U.S. Government was involved in Operation: Zero Tolerance, a genocidal Program, including death camps (Neverland). That alone would be me very, very leery of trusting the government to regulate super powered beings. It'd be like trusting a Nazi to regulate the Jews.
Being forced to work for the government, which no matter how much money they make, is enslavement. If they don't work for the Gov't, they face imprisonment or ghettoization on the Xavier Estate.
That is a major infringement of civil liberties, of freedom. Of the Thirteenth amendment.
In addition, arguments could be made that it infringes on 2nd and 15th amendments as well.
Plus the revelation of identities to the public has resulted in hero's families being attacked.
Geo-Man says:
"Anti-reg. It was wrong for Iron Man to do that. Cap was right all along. 'Nuff said."
IYO it was wrong.Iron Man had a very good reason for going to with the registration act.
Anti.
Whilst i agree with the need to train heroes and to also be able to sort out any destruction caused by taking down criminals, I just don't trust government nor do i like invasion of privacy. The negative zone encampments for anyone, even heroes without trail is morally and ethically wrong. Hiring guys who have no intention of becoming good and hurt people in the process to bring in so called bad guys (a.k.a heroes without a permit) is wrong as well.
I am from the UK so my view is somewhat colored by my government. I don't trust my government as they keep trying to get ways to spy on their own citizens into law. In a comic world, that would get even worse with people like Venom on the books.
Not only that some of the laws they try to pass are not just or good, they are there as forms of control, and whilst cops and the armed forces have to obey and enforce those unjust laws (even if they don't like them), the idea of superheroes is they didn't. The last thing I would want to see is for superheroes to be turned into super-police.
Post Edited:2008-02-16 20:33:47
I say anti.
Heroes should keep their identities a secret because there loves one's can get hurt and they are doing it out of the goodness of there hearts. They are not doing it to get paid or anything. I like the idea of training younger heroes but you don't need a whole civil war to do that. I mean the heroes who are older could have come together and train them like they were tutors.
Akira Overdrive says:
"I used to like Iron Man,then Civil War happened. Cap was Right!"
Cap got hiself killed.
Geo-Man says:
"Vance Astro says:"Geo-Man says:Oh, so you want villains to kill off Spider-Man's loved ones, and all the other heroes' loved ones? I don't. That'd wreck their story.""Anti-reg. It was wrong for Iron Man to do that. Cap was right all along. 'Nuff said."IYO it was wrong.Iron Man had a very good reason for going to with the registration act."
No.Spider-man didn't have to reveal his identity to the world.He f#cked his own life up.
aztek_the_lost says:
"Vance Astro says:"Akira Overdrive says:winning even more to his cause""I used to like Iron Man,then Civil War happened. Cap was Right!"Cap got hiself killed."
The act is still active so...he died for nothing.
Vance Astro says:
"Geo-Man says:"Anti-reg. It was wrong for Iron Man to do that. Cap was right all along. 'Nuff said."IYO it was wrong.Iron Man had a very good reason for going to with the registration act."
Oh, so you want villains to kill off Spider-Man's loved ones, and all the other heroes' loved ones? I don't. That'd wreck their story.
Vance Astro says:
"Geo-Man says:"Vance Astro says:No.Spider-man didn't have to reveal his identity to the world.He f#cked his own life up. aztek_the_lost says:"Geo-Man says:Oh, so you want villains to kill off Spider-Man's loved ones, and all the other heroes' loved ones? I don't. That'd wreck their story.""Anti-reg. It was wrong for Iron Man to do that. Cap was right all along. 'Nuff said."IYO it was wrong.Iron Man had a very good reason for going to with the registration act.""Vance Astro says:The act is still active so...he died for nothing. ""Akira Overdrive says:winning even more to his cause""I used to like Iron Man,then Civil War happened. Cap was Right!"Cap got hiself killed."
The act is still active but so is the rebellion.
Copy says:
"Vance Astro says:"Geo-Man says:The act is still active but so is the rebellion.""Vance Astro says:No.Spider-man didn't have to reveal his identity to the world.He f#cked his own life up. aztek_the_lost says:"Geo-Man says:Oh, so you want villains to kill off Spider-Man's loved ones, and all the other heroes' loved ones? I don't. That'd wreck their story.""Anti-reg. It was wrong for Iron Man to do that. Cap was right all along. 'Nuff said."IYO it was wrong.Iron Man had a very good reason for going to with the registration act.""Vance Astro says:The act is still active so...he died for nothing. ""Akira Overdrive says:winning even more to his cause""I used to like Iron Man,then Civil War happened. Cap was Right!"Cap got hiself killed."
True,but pro-registration is getting the best out of this.
Vance Astro says:
"Copy says:"Vance Astro says:True,but pro-registration is getting the best out of this.""Geo-Man says:The act is still active but so is the rebellion.""Vance Astro says:No.Spider-man didn't have to reveal his identity to the world.He f#cked his own life up. aztek_the_lost says:"Geo-Man says:Oh, so you want villains to kill off Spider-Man's loved ones, and all the other heroes' loved ones? I don't. That'd wreck their story.""Anti-reg. It was wrong for Iron Man to do that. Cap was right all along. 'Nuff said."IYO it was wrong.Iron Man had a very good reason for going to with the registration act.""Vance Astro says:The act is still active so...he died for nothing. ""Akira Overdrive says:winning even more to his cause""I used to like Iron Man,then Civil War happened. Cap was Right!"Cap got hiself killed."
Yea, they won the big battle. But the war is still going on.
Vance Astro says:
"Akira Overdrive says:"I used to like Iron Man,then Civil War happened. Cap was Right!"Cap got hiself killed."
Yeah,and?
Copy says:
"Vance Astro says:"Copy says:Yea, they won the big battle. But the war is still going on.""Vance Astro says:True,but pro-registration is getting the best out of this.""Geo-Man says:The act is still active but so is the rebellion.""Vance Astro says:No.Spider-man didn't have to reveal his identity to the world.He f#cked his own life up. aztek_the_lost says:"Geo-Man says:Oh, so you want villains to kill off Spider-Man's loved ones, and all the other heroes' loved ones? I don't. That'd wreck their story.""Anti-reg. It was wrong for Iron Man to do that. Cap was right all along. 'Nuff said."IYO it was wrong.Iron Man had a very good reason for going to with the registration act.""Vance Astro says:The act is still active so...he died for nothing. ""Akira Overdrive says:winning even more to his cause""I used to like Iron Man,then Civil War happened. Cap was Right!"Cap got hiself killed."
I don't think it will end the way people think it will.I think Tony will end up rejecting the act.
Geo-Man says:
"Vance Astro says :No.Spider-man didn't have to reveal his identity to the world.He f#cked his own life up.Yes, but if every superhuman and up person revealed their identities then villains could go after their loved ones."
Ok but that isn't a requirement of the registration act.If you sign up,everyone doesn't have to know who you are,you only have to reveal you identity to the government.They aren't going to out you or go after your family...well unless your not registered.
Akira Overdrive says:
"Vance Astro says:"Akira Overdrive says:Yeah,and?""I used to like Iron Man,then Civil War happened. Cap was Right!"Cap got hiself killed."
That's it...there is no and.
Vance Astro says:
"I would be Anti and side with Cap.I'm all about freedom and I hate the America government.Tony is one of my favorite heroes but I don't respect him as much as I respect Cap."
The Captain America I knew would NEVER go against the free will of the American people and a law that was legitimately passed. That was the most bogus part of Civil War, I thought.
I would have had less of a problem with Cap dying, had he been pro-registration which is more consistent with what I've seen over the years from Cap. I am pro-registration, although I'm not sure if this is going to make for better stories.
POHOCOM says:
The Captain America I knew would NEVER go against the free will of the American people and a law that was legitimately passed. That was the most bogus part of Civil War, I thought.I would have had less of a problem with Cap dying, had he been pro-registration which is more consistent with what I've seen over the years from Cap. I am pro-registration, although I'm not sure if this is going to make for better stories. "
Heeeeere's the interesting part:
The law isn't legitimate.
It is not a Constitutional Amendment, at least to my knowledge it is not. I doubt they got the 3/4 of the States to ratify it period (because what state wants to hand over any of it's sovereignty to the Federal Gov't), let alone got 3/4 of the states to ratify it that fast.
So not only does it go in direct violation of Amendment 14:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. *No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States*; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
But passing this law is outside of the Federal Gov't powers.
Article I section 8:
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;To borrow money on the credit of the United States;To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;To establish post offices and post roads;To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;To provide and maintain a navy;To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
There is nothing in there that says that Congress can pass laws regulating the conduct of citizens. For instance, there is nothing in the Constitution about "Murder is illegal".
So a law regulating superheros has to be enacted on the State level.
So basically, if someone takes the M.U. U.S. Gov't to court over this, Tony doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.
I hear Matt Murdock is available...
Post Edited:2008-02-19 23:47:34
I'm thinking that they should get to keep the identities privite because if veryone knew then their families lives may be at stake!
POHOCOM says:
"Vance Astro says:"I would be Anti and side with Cap.I'm all about freedom and I hate the America government.Tony is one of my favorite heroes but I don't respect him as much as I respect Cap."The Captain America I knew would NEVER go against the free will of the American people and a law that was legitimately passed. That was the most bogus part of Civil War, I thought. I would have had less of a problem with Cap dying, had he been pro-registration which is more consistent with what I've seen over the years from Cap. I am pro-registration, although I'm not sure if this is going to make for better stories. "
Well you obviously,don't know Captain America.
I was with the Pro because the idea is good teachin young heroes to control their power because if you see the first Avengers Initiative and see how Armory reacted to Trauma bet you don't want heroes like that running around but the government nor sheild should manage it maybe someone like Captain America or someone with high virtues
Also Anti-reg. The possibility to force superheroes to take responsibilty for their mistakes is not worthn the risk. Most of them would do either way (Spidey, Cap, Iron Man, etc.) but this way with the huge collection of data by S.H.I.E.L.D. it's a a big danger. Teh Taskamster has shown that this organisation is not a hard tarrget for him and the Task master does not have any superpowers at all. He's just a very very skilled human. Imagine what the Acolytes or any other group of supervillains could achieve. And how they could play "wack 'em" with the loved ones of our heroes. The risk isn't worth the cost.
The other distinction is the Nazi aspect: I'm a German and we had something like this registration act going on in our past (you know what I mean) and we all know where this lead to. Since then we have sworn to never let this happen again. Hope The (Marvel) USA will go the same way. The privat sphere is something that should be respected, not controlled by the government. The govern is to serve the people, not to controll them. We all have seen what happened when Zero Tolerance was accepted so this might just be the beginning of a new genocide. No paycheck for "legal heroes" will make up for the terror commando of the thunderbolts (also I liked the idea very much) going around and slaying meta-humans that wanted to help but did not want to register.
By the way... acewasp23 where did you get this card? It's pretty cool and I think I could use it for my rpg sessions in the future. (Handling Zero Tolerance a the momment and Civil War is probably the next).
Post Edited:2008-03-11 18:17:33
POHOCOM says:
"Vance Astro says:"I would be Anti and side with Cap.I'm all about freedom and I hate the America government.Tony is one of my favorite heroes but I don't respect him as much as I respect Cap."The Captain America I knew would NEVER go against the free will of the American people and a law that was legitimately passed. That was the most bogus part of Civil War, I thought. I would have had less of a problem with Cap dying, had he been pro-registration which is more consistent with what I've seen over the years from Cap. I am pro-registration, although I'm not sure if this is going to make for better stories. "
just because its the law does not make it right. there have been lots of tottaly insane laws passed.
every regestered hero has a big red target painted on their head.
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