" @SC said:
I understand its a notion, but what does that have to do with me disagreeing with it? What I'm debating is whether or not A: the overall perception of Batman is that he's the most realistic superhero, and B: Whether or not the women of the Bat-Verse operate outside of said perception of realism. My answer for both is no. If you polled 1000 people (I'll assume we're polling comicsfans) then I'm of the opinion that the majority would pick someone other then Batman. Most likely Captain America. Now thats not to say I believe that perception. I cast a specific net do to the subject matter. Its a fictional character and there for the means in which we're able to perceive him are not as wide spread. But I did add "etc" so people could fill in the blanks. In comicbook form though what other means could one use to build their perception? Comments, demeanor, dialog, actions, etc. That's not to say its limited to those, but wouldn't you agree those are the most likely? I dont believe its "such" a foreign notion. However I disagree that its the prevailing one.
" Its a notion. Whatever the opening poster might considering as a general perception. I personally believe if I asked 1000 people who was the most realistic superhero, that Batman would get the nod. Who do you think people would put forward out of curiosity? More than that, is that such a foreign notion? You seem to be casting a pretty specific net with the definition? Thats cool too. There are various ways you can gauge perceptions, practically and presumptively.
Concerning Batman's "realism"...what is it? What exactly does Batman do that makes what the female characters do unrealistic? He's in his last 30's maybe 40's yet he's mastered every single form of hand to hand combat/martial arts, an impossible feat. When the situation calls for it his smarter, faster, stronger, more durable then any superpowered character. He breaks Sharks backs with ease. He fights half-man half crocodiles. His original sidekick died and cameback to life. He himself has just recently returned from traveling across time. He suffers no lasting effects from a lifestyle that should have crippled him years ago. He's fought for the security of a multiverse. I mean, when you look at Batman and what he does and what he's surrounded by, Lady Shiva being able to fight him on a physical level is the most real thing going on. Saying he's more realistic then a dude who flies and shoots lazers from his eyes is a give in. But its a somewhat misleading statement. Like I said, if we're comparing the women of the Bat-Verse to woman or the real World, of course they dont realistic match up, but neither does Batman or the World he lives in. Not even close. With a few exceptions everything in Batman's World has been tailored to fit the "realism" as its been put. Nothing the ladies do upset that theme in my opinion.(hopefully this doesnt sound snappy. I'm enjoying the discussion) "
" I wouldn't want to incorrectly project the meaning of the thread, but I feel I don't have to, to differentiate between asserting a commonly held notion and how it affects relativity. Realism to project what I guess is the threads meaning and context, is that realism is not an absolute quality. Hence irrespective of Batman's realism, relatively, female characters could be an area where realism, aside from stylization is not as accurate, regardless of the accuracy of the control. As per outlined by each specific point that comes after. I mean we know that the illusion of Batman and realism is there, by intent. Similar to Captain America in a way as well. "
Your disagreeing with it? Thats okay, I am not sure anyone is disputing your ability, lets say I disagree with it too? Then what does our disagreements/challenges have to do with the overall point here? Its like we are disagreeing with a assertion thats not exactly intended to be an airtight fact, its used as a tool to make another argument. If we look at your given answer for example. Then you have specifically chosen comic fans? Why is that? Why make that assumption? How do you know that OP didn't mean people generally? So with your assumption you create a minor form of a straw man attack,, but only minor, but misinterpreting what the OP is trying to so, so that the answer you think is right is, and that there's isn't. Or to put it another way, let says in a blog you spoke about Captain America and how he is regarded as the most realistic superhero under a criteria you hold? Then I challenged that assertion and then changed the criteria as to suit my own answer which would assert that another character was the most realistic? The rest of your statements follow though on the understanding that we are referring to comic fans who know and read comics? We I disagree is the case,after all there are more people in the world that don't read comics than though, and more who are aware of a few of these characters than those that read as well. Then all this isn't so much an argument, its more of an assertion of opinion, which is cool, except your earlier critical arguments can also be applied back at yourself correct? With your chosen character?
Just so I get this straight, you think more people, think that the people around them think of Captain America as the most realistic superhero? That one, or you think that more people think that Captain America is more realistic than Batman?
Really a tool just needs to be common enough to allow people to grasp a concept and some semblance of accuracy, would you say that in this case its misused?
Then for the second point, I am not sure that anyone is trying to define Batman's realism. That could be another entire blog subject. Then its not so much about, ironically the reality of Batman, but about the perception of Batman. I am not a Batman fan, but I read like 3 to 4 of his books a month, plus he usually turns up in my favorite DC books time to time, and I consider him in his thirties, I don't think he has actually mastered all those styles, I recognize that as a writing trope employed by writers and that what they are essentially trying to say badly is that Batman is very skilled and very good at martial arts. I bet to go along with the 1000 people perception, understanding thing, if you asked people (non fans) whether, if Batman was a master of Sumo or a really skilled and awesome fighter they would probably assert the later. Not that those two options would be mutually exclusive and if Batman did indeed master every typing of fighting, he would be a Yokozuna probably... lol but do they associate that with Batman or do they just view him as being super awesome at fighting?
I just get the sense that your applying the wrong context intended, not that its a vlaid context, but you seem to know Batman well, if you were required to make the character sound relatable and realistic could you in the same fashion as you just did to discredit that notion? I have no doubts that you couldn't, we should be able to, it just depends on what we are focusing on.
I don't find such a statement misleading, it depends on the context. Your saying Captain America is more realistic when he has knocked out über powerful dragons that Thor has had trouble with, destroyed a room full of powered supernatural creature, turned into a wolf, stared down Thanos, (like eye to eye lol) fought for the security of the multiverse etc etc etc I mean, by the same token, except I recognize the context you could apply to support your assertion, so nothing you say is particularly misleading at all.
Then the main point I get from the thread, is not that they don't match up with some tight ratio with Batman's realism to a realistic Batman done in real life as in Gotham females realism, to those same characters done in real life, and so if you don't find Batman realistic then its pointless to make an example of the female characters. Batman's realism is not the focus, its relativity. We know what Batman is intended as right? Do you agree or disagree there? Of course therefore the female characters would as well, but the topics covered in this blog aren't deconstructing Batman's realism, its the relativity with regards to the intent behind all these characters concerned realism. Quite different from the oversimplified notion of pointing out that the women of Gotham aren't realistic compared to real life. I am not sure thats the point here at all? I mean, thats a one line blog? Made redundant by its own oversimplification lol
Intent is subjective, nothing needs to be upset to be improved upon. Different writers approach Batman and many other hero characters the same way. Its not that some are upset by the status quo set by other writers, some writers are just better at injecting more realism, more technical accuracy more of anything into some characters more than others. This thread points out general ways one area can be improved and the reason why a discrepancy exists. I could do a similar thread about how some writers and artists could make a character like Fat Cobra act and fight as if he was Iron Fist. Now if they made him fight extremely (or relatively) realistically like Iron Fist to convey authentic mastery of a martial arts... thats cool, one could argue that other aspects of Iron Fist like the hearts of Dragons and punching out helicarriers isn't realistic... but thats not the specific context intended. So that angle to show that since Iron Fist isn't realistic so Fat Cobra doesn't need to be either when the point I would be making here, is that Fat Cobra's physique would mean and specify differences in fighting style to Danny and ways this could be conveyed though intent? (like how the writers and artists of Iron Fist were aiming for a certain type of accuracy with their depiction of Iron Fist to ground and make the character more realistic but only in certain contexts, obviously.
Galactus wasn't, isn't intended to be a realistic, grounded character, we could see next week, it won't stop writers like Hickman approaching him and writing him in ways that both appeal to the original understanding of the character but updating and modernizing the character now that science has evolved and developed and most writers knowledge in more fields surpasses that of their predecessors (I'll be careful not to intend that too generally, I am sure many older writers could kick the knowledge of some of the newer writers...) and so should Hickman be chastised for his approach in writing? Should this blog? The blog covers itself pretty well, emphasis on key words such as degree of reality rather than implication that reality is a switch and Batman falls on the off position. A lot of the points it covers are already dealt with and covered in certain comics already, I don't know about Bat women and gender specifically, but it pops up elsewhere and eventually many of the things covered here will be addressed in comics, because of again, realism and relativity. Accuracy and relativity. Intent opposed to execution. This is comics, intent doesn't always find itself executed well. You demonstrate this with your view on Batman, I am no different. Not absolutely, subjectively. I am this with most characters lol
Oh, not snappy at all, very well made and put. I am really enjoying this too. ^_^ - I agree with a lot of your criticism of Batman's realism. Especially, especially the martial arts parts lol
Bill Finger: Yo Big Daddy Kane, I am laying down some plot for our first Batman story. What martial arts style should i give him? This cat (Bat hehe) is one bad mofo right? Got to represent this well artistically you do.
Bob Kane: How about... all of them? Our character can know every discipline, arts, style, stance, technique ever? Then be a master of all of them. Plus please stop speaking... like that.
Bill Finger: I know you like it when I call you Big Poppa *finger click* So um... he's mastered every type of fighting ever? Even the ones developed for fat people? Women? Ones that need a life time to master just one, ones lost to us? Ones modified by people in secret? Ones that have yet to be invented? All of them literally?
Bob Kane: .... yes...
Bill Finger" Uh... but
Bob Kane: Yes! This makes him more realistic. Plus maybe invent some new styles as well. He knows those as well. Invent Bat Fu Also invent Oil Wrestling...
Bill Finger: And if I don't write it this way....?
Bob Kane: I will make sure you are never given the recognition you deserve for taking part in the creation of this character. Bwahahahaha.
Bill Finger: Hah, he is totally bluffing...
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