So cap isn't a superhuman...but is he enhanced or peak?

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#151 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

Yeah, especially since this isn't turning into a childish flame war or anything, maybe people will also take it as a way for two people, with differing opinions, to discuss and talk about a topic with out "yelling" and insulting each other. Sadly, that seems all too common nowadays.

I've trimmed down a bunch of replies -- hope you don't mind, but it was mainly just us reaching agreement.

And yeah, this is a productive discussion I think. I do hope others may find it useful when this debate inevitably comes up again, either here or on another forum.

Fair enough. But, I would also like to add and/or clarify, about my opinion, that I don't really think it changes the character (in this case Cap) since, to me it's not really changing anything, but rather explaining how he has been able to do feats, in this case bullet dodging, that he has consistently been doing for years. But I also understand your point of view on it.

I guess I view it as unnecessary. All comic book peak humans seem to be able to dodge bullets, it doesn't require being enhanced or redefining "peak human".

Batman does this, as do other Marvel heroes besides Cap I'm sure. I'm just not as familiar with Marvel. I'm sure Black Widow can dodge bullets, Nick Fury has been doing it etc. For any street level heroes, this is a pretty basic and recurring feat. I'm sure we could find scans of Moon Knight dodging bullets, and he isn't even peak.

Okay. I except that for the bench pressing scan, but the other scans I've shown, he was not bench pressing, but lifting and many of them were significantly over 800lbs. and while admittedly he didn't lift them over his head the fact that he lifted them (the least of which was a hundred pounds over 800lbs) shoulder high with no visible strain would lend itself to evidence that he could lift over 800lbs above his head, I would think. If the absolute max is 800lbs, then I would think he wouldn't bee able to lift that much without any sign of strain. I admit this is my opinion, though.

The difference is in how he was lifting. When he lifts something at waist level, he has his entire back for support. He may have also been using his shoulders as a brace, as far as the poles were concerned. Lifting directly over your head without back or shoulder support would be much harder.

We can speculate, but from the feats posted he hasn't surpassed Marvel's peak human classification in terms of strength.

If you like, I can post this question on a fitness site and get a more detailed response, or I can probably find an article somewhere showing the weight limitations for different lifting positions.

I would also add in his reflexes as well, as it is stated in his bio, that he has near instantaneous reflexive speed. Also when concerning his healing, he is also immune to all terrestrial diseases, and alcohol and drugs. (interesting note, however, in the 80's Steve was caught in a drug lab explosion, and the drug did in fact effect him. I'm unsure of the actual circumstances involving the drug, as I've never read the story arc "Streets of Poison"). But yeah if the only proof that is acceptable is him literally lifting more than 800lbs over his head then, I admit I don't have any proof, just the weight of the scans I've already shown and my reasoning behind why I think it's still valid, which I've already admitted is just my opinion.

Which bio says that? The handbook doesn't rate him that highly as far as speed goes, and he certainly isn't anywhere near as fast as say, Spiderman.

I mean, to classify him as Enhanced, we have to show him doing something beyond the limits of the peak classification in each of the following categories:

  • Intelligence
  • Strength
  • Speed
  • Durability
  • Energy Projection

I don't think people are really arguing that he is Enhanced when it comes to Intelligence or Energy Projection, so we can ignore those. I admit that he is Enhanced with durability as I'm guessing that includes healing

So really, it comes down to speed and strength to argue if he is beyond the limits of the peak classification.

For speed, there are solely 2 instances where his speed is stated as being above 30mph. These can be either dismissed as PIS, or rationalized as being possible due to extenuating circumstances, but very rare. Either way, it isn't enough to show that the character is beyond the peak classification.

Why? Because it's easy to find 2 examples of a character being written beyond their power limit for almost any character. It isn't enough to prove something unless it happens consistently, which isn't the case with Cap's speed as it simply isn't stated often enough.

So, then we have strength, where the limit is 800lbs lifted directly above the head. Which translates to about 1200lbs for benching. And anywhere in between/around that depending on the lifting position.

We've seen Cap benching 1100lbs, which supports the peak classification, and we haven't seen any strength feat that puts him in a higher category, or shows that he can lift more than 800lbs above his head.

So far, I see no reason to classify him as anything other than peak, with the exception of his healing.

On an off topic, I was looking through the Marvel Wikia you introduced me to (I was looking at the other "peak human" heroes that were mentioned, just for fun), I have to say it's really, pretty good. I only have one, I don't want to say complaint, but discrepancy, I guess is a good enough word. When concerning Deadpool, it says (about his strength) "he is able to lift at least 425lbs but no more than 800lbs" and he possesses a 4 on the grid. While Cap has the same max but is a 3. Really it's no big deal, since I think Deadpool's strength is in fact greater than Captain America's, but it was something I noticed. And honestly, that is really the only thing I've found so far that is a little off. Other than that it seems to be a pretty accurate site.

I'm glad you like it! There are some silly people who don't trust Wikis because they think anyone can edit them flippantly, which is pretty far from the truth. It's a really well maintained site, and they provide sources which tend to be either comic issues or handbooks.

As far as Deadpool goes, it could be a mistake, or from an earlier version of the handbook, or perhaps a newer version and the grid was changed but not the explanation. Not to say there are not some minor problems, but as you have seen on the whole, it's pretty reliable.

@teerack said:

Why is this thread still going? He's superhuman. /end

Because it isn't that simple. It actually seems to be one of the most common, longest ongoing debates in comics.

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#152 Posted by Teerack (10703 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@tg1982 said:

Yeah, especially since this isn't turning into a childish flame war or anything, maybe people will also take it as a way for two people, with differing opinions, to discuss and talk about a topic with out "yelling" and insulting each other. Sadly, that seems all too common nowadays.

I've trimmed down a bunch of replies -- hope you don't mind, but it was mainly just us reaching agreement.

And yeah, this is a productive discussion I think. I do hope others may find it useful when this debate inevitably comes up again, either here or on another forum.

Fair enough. But, I would also like to add and/or clarify, about my opinion, that I don't really think it changes the character (in this case Cap) since, to me it's not really changing anything, but rather explaining how he has been able to do feats, in this case bullet dodging, that he has consistently been doing for years. But I also understand your point of view on it.

I guess I view it as unnecessary. All comic book peak humans seem to be able to dodge bullets, it doesn't require being enhanced or redefining "peak human".

Batman does this, as do other Marvel heroes besides Cap I'm sure. I'm just not as familiar with Marvel. I'm sure Black Widow can dodge bullets, Nick Fury has been doing it etc. For any street level heroes, this is a pretty basic and recurring feat. I'm sure we could find scans of Moon Knight dodging bullets, and he isn't even peak.

Okay. I except that for the bench pressing scan, but the other scans I've shown, he was not bench pressing, but lifting and many of them were significantly over 800lbs. and while admittedly he didn't lift them over his head the fact that he lifted them (the least of which was a hundred pounds over 800lbs) shoulder high with no visible strain would lend itself to evidence that he could lift over 800lbs above his head, I would think. If the absolute max is 800lbs, then I would think he wouldn't bee able to lift that much without any sign of strain. I admit this is my opinion, though.

The difference is in how he was lifting. When he lifts something at waist level, he has his entire back for support. He may have also been using his shoulders as a brace, as far as the poles were concerned. Lifting directly over your head without back or shoulder support would be much harder.

We can speculate, but from the feats posted he hasn't surpassed Marvel's peak human classification in terms of strength.

If you like, I can post this question on a fitness site and get a more detailed response, or I can probably find an article somewhere showing the weight limitations for different lifting positions.

I would also add in his reflexes as well, as it is stated in his bio, that he has near instantaneous reflexive speed. Also when concerning his healing, he is also immune to all terrestrial diseases, and alcohol and drugs. (interesting note, however, in the 80's Steve was caught in a drug lab explosion, and the drug did in fact effect him. I'm unsure of the actual circumstances involving the drug, as I've never read the story arc "Streets of Poison"). But yeah if the only proof that is acceptable is him literally lifting more than 800lbs over his head then, I admit I don't have any proof, just the weight of the scans I've already shown and my reasoning behind why I think it's still valid, which I've already admitted is just my opinion.

Which bio says that? The handbook doesn't rate him that highly as far as speed goes, and he certainly isn't anywhere near as fast as say, Spiderman.

I mean, to classify him as Enhanced, we have to show him doing something beyond the limits of the peak classification in each of the following categories:

  • Intelligence
  • Strength
  • Speed
  • Durability
  • Energy Projection

I don't think people are really arguing that he is Enhanced when it comes to Intelligence or Energy Projection, so we can ignore those. I admit that he is Enhanced with durability as I'm guessing that includes healing

So really, it comes down to speed and strength to argue if he is beyond the limits of the peak classification.

For speed, there are solely 2 instances where his speed is stated as being above 30mph. These can be either dismissed as PIS, or rationalized as being possible due to extenuating circumstances, but very rare. Either way, it isn't enough to show that the character is beyond the peak classification.

Why? Because it's easy to find 2 examples of a character being written beyond their power limit for almost any character. It isn't enough to prove something unless it happens consistently, which isn't the case with Cap's speed as it simply isn't stated often enough.

So, then we have strength, where the limit is 800lbs lifted directly above the head. Which translates to about 1200lbs for benching. And anywhere in between/around that depending on the lifting position.

We've seen Cap benching 1100lbs, which supports the peak classification, and we haven't seen any strength feat that puts him in a higher category, or shows that he can lift more than 800lbs above his head.

So far, I see no reason to classify him as anything other than peak, with the exception of his healing.

On an off topic, I was looking through the Marvel Wikia you introduced me to (I was looking at the other "peak human" heroes that were mentioned, just for fun), I have to say it's really, pretty good. I only have one, I don't want to say complaint, but discrepancy, I guess is a good enough word. When concerning Deadpool, it says (about his strength) "he is able to lift at least 425lbs but no more than 800lbs" and he possesses a 4 on the grid. While Cap has the same max but is a 3. Really it's no big deal, since I think Deadpool's strength is in fact greater than Captain America's, but it was something I noticed. And honestly, that is really the only thing I've found so far that is a little off. Other than that it seems to be a pretty accurate site.

I'm glad you like it! There are some silly people who don't trust Wikis because they think anyone can edit them flippantly, which is pretty far from the truth. It's a really well maintained site, and they provide sources which tend to be either comic issues or handbooks.

As far as Deadpool goes, it could be a mistake, or from an earlier version of the handbook, or perhaps a newer version and the grid was changed but not the explanation. Not to say there are not some minor problems, but as you have seen on the whole, it's pretty reliable.

@teerack said:

Why is this thread still going? He's superhuman. /end

Because it isn't that simple. It actually seems to be one of the most common, longest ongoing debates in comics.

No it is pretty simple. People just don't want to accept what's in the Official Marvel Handbooks.

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#153 Edited by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:
I've trimmed down a bunch of replies -- hope you don't mind, but it was mainly just us reaching agreement.

That's cool.

@muyjingo said:

I guess I view it as unnecessary. All comic book peak humans seem to be able to dodge bullets, it doesn't require being enhanced or redefining "peak human".

Batman does this, as do other Marvel heroes besides Cap I'm sure. I'm just not as familiar with Marvel. I'm sure Black Widow can dodge bullets, Nick Fury has been doing it etc. For any street level heroes, this is a pretty basic and recurring feat. I'm sure we could find scans of Moon Knight dodging bullets, and he isn't even peak.

There seems to be a difference between "true" bullet dodging, and what is called "bullet timing", bullet dodging is when you literally dodge the bullet, while bullet timing is when you begin the evasion/dodge just before the gunman fires the gun, therefore you aren't actually dodging the bullet but the gunman's, I guess, ability to, basically, get an accurate shot/bead on you. I believe Daredevil does this, due to his super senses, he can pretty much know when a gunman is about to fire (their heart rate will speed up or whatever) and move right before the trigger is pulled. Now what character does what is a debate for another thread, and honestly that's neither here nor there. Just a little bit of off topic digression on my part. Back to topic.

@muyjingo said:

The difference is in how he was lifting. When he lifts something at waist level, he has his entire back for support. He may have also been using his shoulders as a brace, as far as the poles were concerned. Lifting directly over your head without back or shoulder support would be much harder.

We can speculate, but from the feats posted he hasn't surpassed Marvel's peak human classification in terms of strength.

Fair enough.

@muyjingo said:

If you like, I can post this question on a fitness site and get a more detailed response, or I can probably find an article somewhere showing the weight limitations for different lifting positions.

I actually wouldn't mind this. It would be nice to get a definitive answer from a source more knowledgeable than me on the subject. But you don't have too, if you don't want to.

@muyjingo said:

Which bio says that? The handbook doesn't rate him that highly as far as speed goes, and he certainly isn't anywhere near as fast as say, Spiderman.

It's not considered with the running speed, it's basically, it's own thing. There's not even a grid category for it, but it is listed in the Marvel Wikia.

@muyjingo said:

I mean, to classify him as Enhanced, we have to show him doing something beyond the limits of the peak classification in each of the following categories:

  • Intelligence
  • Strength
  • Speed
  • Durability
  • Energy Projection

Again, it's not in these categories. It used to be in the older handbooks, actually, the 1992 one you posted back on page 2 or 3 actually has it. But in the actual bio his reflexes are nearly instantaneous.

@muyjingo said:

I don't think people are really arguing that he is Enhanced when it comes to Intelligence or Energy Projection, so we can ignore those. I admit that he is Enhanced with durability as I'm guessing that includes healing

Agree, on all counts.

@muyjingo said:

So really, it comes down to speed and strength to argue if he is beyond the limits of the peak classification.

For speed, there are solely 2 instances where his speed is stated as being above 30mph. These can be either dismissed as PIS, or rationalized as being possible due to extenuating circumstances, but very rare. Either way, it isn't enough to show that the character is beyond the peak classification.

Why? Because it's easy to find 2 examples of a character being written beyond their power limit for almost any character. It isn't enough to prove something unless it happens consistently, which isn't the case with Cap's speed as it simply isn't stated often enough.

Fair point.

@muyjingo said:

So, then we have strength, where the limit is 800lbs lifted directly above the head. Which translates to about 1200lbs for benching. And anywhere in between/around that depending on the lifting position.

We've seen Cap benching 1100lbs, which supports the peak classification, and we haven't seen any strength feat that puts him in a higher category, or shows that he can lift more than 800lbs above his head.

So far, I see no reason to classify him as anything other than peak, with the exception of his healing.

I may have to disagree here, depending on if we get any answers about the lifting positions and what not. Not about 800lbs being the limit, but on if Cap can lift the items in the scans over his head based on where they were positioned.

@muyjingo said:

I'm glad you like it! There are some silly people who don't trust Wikis because they think anyone can edit them flippantly, which is pretty far from the truth. It's a really well maintained site, and they provide sources which tend to be either comic issues or handbooks.

Yeah.

@muyjingo said:

As far as Deadpool goes, it could be a mistake, or from an earlier version of the handbook, or perhaps a newer version and the grid was changed but not the explanation. Not to say there are not some minor problems, but as you have seen on the whole, it's pretty reliable.

Yeah, and honestly, it's not even that big of a deal. At least it isn't completely whacked like the Marvel website. :-)

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#154 Edited by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack said:

No it is pretty simple. People just don't want to accept what's in the Official Marvel Handbooks.

The Official Marvel Handbooks list him as Peak Human. If they listed him as super as you claim (which is clearly wrong, I posted the scan from the most recent handbook above) there would be no argument.

@tg1982 said:

There seems to be a difference between "true" bullet dodging, and what is called "bullet timing", bullet dodging is when you literally dodge the bullet, while bullet timing is when you begin the evasion/dodge just before the gunman fires the gun, therefore you aren't actually dodging the bullet but the gunman's, I guess, ability to, basically, get an accurate shot/bead on you. I believe Daredevil does this, due to his super senses, he can pretty much know when a gunman is about to fire (their heart rate will speed up or whatever) and move right before the trigger is pulled. Now what character does what is a debate for another thread, and honestly that's neither here nor there. Just a little bit of off topic digression on my part. Back to topic.

Sure, I'm familiar with that distinction and I've seen it argued before. I maintain Batman has dodged bullets (even catching them on one occasion), and I would all but guarantee I can find examples of other Marvel peak humans considered below Cap's level doing a similar thing.

My point was that simply that it is a very common feat and not enough to show that someone is more than peak in terms of reflexes.

I actually wouldn't mind this. It would be nice to get a definitive answer from a source more knowledgeable than me on the subject. But you don't have too, if you don't want to.

I'm happy to do this, it will just take a little bit longer.

It's not considered with the running speed, it's basically, it's own thing. There's not even a grid category for it, but it is listed in the Marvel Wikia.

OK. The Marvel Wikia still lists him as peak though, saying he borders on superhuman...but still being classified as peak. Although, I don't know if it makes much of a difference at this point. Even if he has enhanced reflexes and healing, I don't think that is enough to refer to him as more than peak.

Again, it's not in these categories. It used to be in the older handbooks, actually, the 1992 one you posted back on page 2 or 3 actually has it. But in the actual bio his reflexes are nearly instantaneous.

I wasn't listing those categories to see where reflexes would fit, I was just breaking down the categories in the powergrid to show which ones we have gone through.

As far as the powergrid goes, he is above peak for durability due to his healing. The only other category to be determined is strength.

I may have to disagree here, depending on if we get any answers about the lifting positions and what not. Not about 800lbs being the limit, but on if Cap can lift the items in the scans over his head based on where they were positioned.

So, lets say hypothetically we get a nice concise reply explaining the weight limitations for the various lifting positions, a reply that syncs up nicely with Cap being classified as peak and supports what I've been claiming. A reply explaining that he can lift a lot more than 800lbs in certain positions, but none of the amounts would support him lifting more than 800lbs above his head.

It would then seem that Cap could not be considered anything more than peak for strength.

  • We established that there is insufficient evidence to support him consistently running as faster than 30mph, although some people can choose to intercept him as running more than that.
  • His durability is enhanced, due to his healing
  • His intelligence is peak
  • His energy projection is...irrelevant, but not above peak.

So if his strength is not above peak, that means that he is above peak in 1 category out of the 5 categories on the power grid -- durability due to his healing.

If we add in reflexes and assume that his reflexes are above peak (which I can concede), then it becomes 2 out of 6 categories where he can be considered above peak.

Assuming that holds true, should he not be considered peak, since in most categories that's what he is? Especially for battle threads where people try to argue his strength and speed is more than peak, and if the above is correct, that simply doesn't hold true.

Would you agree with this?

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#155 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

Sure, I'm familiar with that distinction and I've seen it argued before. I maintain Batman has dodged bullets (even catching them on one occasion), and I would all but guarantee I can find examples of other Marvel peak humans considered below Cap's level doing a similar thing.

I wasn't saying Batman hasn't, I don't follow him, so I don't know. I was just brining it up, almost, as a side note.

@muyjingo said:

I'm happy to do this, it will just take a little bit longer.

Cool, thanks. I tried looking for some kind of definitive answer, but I really didn't even know where to start.

@muyjingo said:

OK. The Marvel Wikia still lists him as peak though, saying he borders on superhuman...but still being classified as peak. Although, I don't know if it makes much of a difference at this point. Even if he has enhanced reflexes and healing, I don't think that is enough to refer to him as more than peak.

I though enhanced was below superhuman, and peak was below enhanced. But yeah, it's not really important in the whole entirety of thing. I was just simply pointing it out.

@muyjingo said:

I wasn't listing those categories to see where reflexes would fit, I was just breaking down the categories in the powergrid to show which ones we have gone through.

Oh. Okay.

@muyjingo said:
We established that there is insufficient evidence to support him consistently running as faster than 30mph, although some people can choose to intercept him as running more than that.
  • His durability is enhanced, due to his healing
  • His intelligence is peak
  • His energy projection is...irrelevant, but not above peak.

So if his strength is not above peak, that means that he is above peak in 1 category out of the 5 categories on the power grid -- durability due to his healing.

If we add in reflexes and assume that his reflexes are above peak (which I can concede), then it becomes 2 out of 6 categories where he can be considered above peak.

Assuming that holds true, should he not be considered peak, since in most categories that's what he is? Especially for battle threads where people try to argue his strength and speed is more than peak, and if the above is correct, that simply doesn't hold true.

Would you agree with this?

Sure. As I've said, My stance is not that Cap is or isn't peak human, it's that he's, for lack of a better term, more peak human than other "peak humans" outside of humans with outside influences (such as Black Panther), when talking about the Marvel Universe.

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#156 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

Sure. As I've said, My stance is not that Cap is or isn't peak human, it's that he's, for lack of a better term, more peak human than other "peak humans" outside of humans with outside influences (such as Black Panther), when talking about the Marvel Universe.

Saying peak of human potential is the same as saying enhanced more or less (assuming I understand your stance correctly) -- it's basically saying he is capable of more than the peak classification, right?

What we seem to be finding (dependent on clarifying the strength issue) is that he is only above that classification in terms of durability and reflexes.

Basically, there seems to be little to support that he is Enhanced, Superhuman, or more peak than peak except in durability, reflexes and maybe strength. Would you agree with that?

I should note, that is all consistent with him being the next step in evolution or whatever -- it just means we don't evolve to be super fast and super strong, but to have better healing and reflexes, which makes a lot of sense to me.

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#157 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

Saying peak of human potential is the same as saying enhanced more or less (assuming I understand your stance correctly) -- it's basically saying he is capable of more than the peak classification, right?

To me, saying peak of human potential is just that. If others want to classify him as enhanced or peak human, I don't really care one way or another, to be honest. All I'm saying is, either he is more peak human than the other peak humans or the other peak humans aren't peak humans.

@muyjingo said:
Basically, there seems to be little to support that he is Enhanced, Superhuman, or more peak than peak except in durability, reflexes and maybe strength. Would you agree with that?

I fully agree with the stance that Captain America is not superhuman. As for enhanced, again I really don't care. I do think that if there are other characters in the Marvel Universe that are supposed to be considered peak human, and have no kind of outside enhancements (such as Black Panther) that yes, Cap is more peak human than they are. For example, Daredevil, Black Widow, Punisher, Moonknight, etc. etc. Cap is physically more peak human than they are (if they are considered peak human), based off of feats in the comics going back years. They may be equal in one or perhaps even two categories, but not all of them, even Black Widow who supposedly is peak human. While characters who have outside enhancements, such as Captain America (super soldier serum), Black Panther (heart shaped herb), Iron Fist (chi powers), and perhaps Shang Chi (chi powers) all have something to enhance them to peak human physically.

Basically, if Cap is just a peak human than the other "natural" Marvel peak humans that weren't enhanced through other means aren't peak human then. Or they may be in peak human range, but Captain America, Black Panther, etc. etc. are at the very upper limit of it. I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough (I'm pretty tired after work)

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#158 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

To me, saying peak of human potential is just that. If others want to classify him as enhanced or peak human, I don't really care one way or another, to be honest. All I'm saying is, either he is more peak human than the other peak humans or the other peak humans aren't peak humans.

Well I disagree with "peak of human potential" meaning the peak of what humans may one day be. I see it as pretty clearly meaning the peak of what a human today could potentially be -- but it's semantics really, and it doesn't matter when clarifying his abilities and which marvel classification he fits into.

I can agree with you though, on him being capable of more than other characters in the same classification as him. No problem with that at all.

I fully agree with the stance that Captain America is not superhuman. As for enhanced, again I really don't care. I do think that if there are other characters in the Marvel Universe that are supposed to be considered peak human, and have no kind of outside enhancements (such as Black Panther) that yes, Cap is more peak human than they are. For example, Daredevil, Black Widow, Punisher, Moonknight, etc. etc. Cap is physically more peak human than they are (if they are considered peak human), based off of feats in the comics going back years. They may be equal in one or perhaps even two categories, but not all of them, even Black Widow who supposedly is peak human. While characters who have outside enhancements, such as Captain America (super soldier serum), Black Panther (heart shaped herb), Iron Fist (chi powers), and perhaps Shang Chi (chi powers) all have something to enhance them to peak human physically.

Basically, if Cap is just a peak human than the other "natural" Marvel peak humans that weren't enhanced through other means aren't peak human then. Or they may be in peak human range, but Captain America, Black Panther, etc. etc. are at the very upper limit of it. I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough (I'm pretty tired after work)

Sure, I get what you're saying. That if the marvel classifications are ranges, Cap is at the upper limit of that range. I can agree with that, and have no problem with it. For me, it's about establishing what that upper limit is.

So far, it seems his limits outside of durability, reflexes and maybe strength are in line with the limits for Marvel's peak human classification.

That's my point because many people in this thread, other threads like and especially the thread that was on the homepage where he is matched against Batman argue that he is above the peak human classification to varying extents and has feats to prove it. We seem to be finding out that isn't really the case -- that's my point.

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#159 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

Well I disagree with "peak of human potential" meaning the peak of what humans may one day be. I see it as pretty clearly meaning the peak of what a human today could potentially be -- but it's semantics really, and it doesn't matter when clarifying his abilities and which marvel classification he fits into.

I can agree with you though, on him being capable of more than other characters in the same classification as him. No problem with that at all.

Yeah. That's all I'm saying. As far as peak of human potential, that's fine, we can agree to disagree there. All we have to go on is statements made in comic, and I don't see how either viewpoint can, honestly, be proven or disproven, at least right now. Maybe some day we'll have concrete proof one way or the other.

@muyjingo said:

Sure, I get what you're saying. That if the marvel classifications are ranges, Cap is at the upper limit of that range. I can agree with that, and have no problem with it. For me, it's about establishing what that upper limit is.

So far, it seems his limits outside of durability, reflexes and maybe strength are in line with the limits for Marvel's peak human classification.

Fair enough. I agree, actually.

@muyjingo said:

That's my point because many people in this thread, other threads like and especially the thread that was on the homepage where he is matched against Batman argue that he is above the peak human classification to varying extents and has feats to prove it. We seem to be finding out that isn't really the case -- that's my point.

Again, you're going to run into more "enthusiastic" fans for all characters, from time to time. Captain America included. At best the feats are high-end, at worse PIS, depending on the believability of the feat in question.

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#160 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

Fair enough. I agree, actually.

Cool :) Now all that remains is to establish the strength aspect. I'll have more detail on that later in the week hopefully.

Again, you're going to run into more "enthusiastic" fans for all characters, from time to time. Captain America included. At best the feats are high-end, at worse PIS, depending on the believability of the feat in question.

Oh, I know that. But Cap seems different. Almost all fans of the character, even a writer for the site argued he was not in the peak human classification, especially for strength and speed -- when those are the two categories where he does seem to be peak.

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#161 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

Oh, I know that. But Cap seems different. Almost all fans of the character, even a writer for the site argued he was not in the peak human classification, especially for strength and speed -- when those are the two categories where he does seem to be peak.

What thread is this? This one? I must have missed it. Anyways, everyone is entitled to their opinion, it doesn't mean it's fact. ;-)

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#162 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

What thread is this? This one? I must have missed it. Anyways, everyone is entitled to their opinion, it doesn't mean it's fact. ;-)

Ahh, no, it was this one, an article on the front page - http://www.comicvine.com/articles/does-batman-always-win-batman-vs-captain-america/1100-145625/

k4tzm4n argues that Cap is "enhanced" and has a significant edge in speed and strength.

The thread is full of cap fans supporting that or arguing he is even superhuman, and bat fans like me denying that or showing batman's feats.

Batman has been showing benching 1200lbs, kicking a tree in half, pushing a locomotive with his legs, catching bullets, catching arrows and more. They seemed roughly equal to me as far as speed and strength, both being peak.

It always seemed lame to me to try and argue that cap is a whole category higher than Batman, based on feats alone -- that only works if you ignore Batman's feats.

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#163 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@tg1982 said:

What thread is this? This one? I must have missed it. Anyways, everyone is entitled to their opinion, it doesn't mean it's fact. ;-)

Ahh, no, it was this one, an article on the front page - http://www.comicvine.com/articles/does-batman-always-win-batman-vs-captain-america/1100-145625/

k4tzm4n argues that Cap is "enhanced" and has a significant edge in speed and strength.

The thread is full of cap fans supporting that or arguing he is even superhuman, and bat fans like me denying that or showing batman's feats.

Batman has been showing benching 1200lbs, kicking a tree in half, pushing a locomotive with his legs, catching bullets, catching arrows and more. They seemed roughly equal to me as far as speed and strength, both being peak.

It always seemed lame to me to try and argue that cap is a whole category higher than Batman, based on feats alone -- that only works if you ignore Batman's feats.

Oh. I do believe that Cap does have an edge over Batman physically, but NOT in any significant way. Except maybe stamina, and durability. But to say or insinuate that he FAR outclasses Batman in any other physical category is ridiculous, at least, IMO. With the exception of tools, the shield and the utility belt respectively, I think they are pretty much equal. Bats has the intelligence and gadgets advantage, and Cap has the stamina and durability advantage, everything else is pretty much equal, IMO. But that is for another debate.

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#164 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

Oh. I do believe that Cap does have an edge over Batman physically, but NOT in any significant way. Except maybe stamina, and durability. But to say or insinuate that he FAR outclasses Batman in any other physical category is ridiculous, at least, IMO. With the exception of tools, the shield and the utility belt respectively, I think they are pretty much equal. Bats has the intelligence and gadgets advantage, and Cap has the stamina and durability advantage, everything else is pretty much equal, IMO. But that is for another debate.

I more or less agree. I think they have equivalent strength and speed feats and are in their equivalent classifications. When people cherrypick feats from one character and ignore the feats of the other...well that can be frustrating. I do think Batman has the advantage overall due to his mastery of martial arts and experience, but as you say that's another debate.

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#165 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:
I more or less agree. I think they have equivalent strength and speed feats and are in their equivalent classifications. When people cherrypick feats from one character and ignore the feats of the other...well that can be frustrating. I do think Batman has the advantage overall due to his mastery of martial arts and experience, but as you say that's another debate.

Yeah. Believe me, just the two of us could debate Cap vs. Bats for pages, I'm sure. LOL. ;-)

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#166 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

I don't know if you've seen this battle thread, but it's Cap vs. Bats and it's almost 2000 posts long.

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#167 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

Yeah. Believe me, just the two of us could debate Cap vs. Bats for pages, I'm sure. LOL. ;-)

Lol

@tg1982 said:

@muyjingo:

I don't know if you've seen this battle thread, but it's Cap vs. Bats and it's almost 2000 posts long.

Wow I hadn't seen that. It seems to be a lot of users I'm familiar with from this and the other thread, extrapolating from particular feats, insisting certain things must be true just because, and selectively ignoring points made against the characters they don't favor. A pretty average battle thread except for the length.

I plan to check it out though, some of the scans look interesting. Thanks for the link.

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#168 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@tg1982 said:

Yeah. Believe me, just the two of us could debate Cap vs. Bats for pages, I'm sure. LOL. ;-)

Lol

@tg1982 said:

@muyjingo:

I don't know if you've seen this battle thread, but it's Cap vs. Bats and it's almost 2000 posts long.

Wow I hadn't seen that. It seems to be a lot of users I'm familiar with from this and the other thread, extrapolating from particular feats, insisting certain things must be true just because, and selectively ignoring points made against the characters they don't favor. A pretty average battle thread except for the length.

I plan to check it out though, some of the scans look interesting. Thanks for the link.

Yeah, I'm even in there, I don't remember what pages though. LOL.

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#169 Posted by Teerack (10703 posts) - - Show Bio
@muyjingo said:

@teerack said:

No it is pretty simple. People just don't want to accept what's in the Official Marvel Handbooks.

The Official Marvel Handbooks list him as Peak Human. If they listed him as super as you claim (which is clearly wrong, I posted the scan from the most recent handbook above) there would be no argument.

It list things that are beyond human possibility like healing faster and reduced fatigue toxins. Two things that wouldn't change no matter how healthy you are. If it's not humanly possibly it's not peak conditions.

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#170 Posted by krauser99 (851 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@alexander505 said:

Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

According to the Marvel Handbook, his body is able to prevent the buildup of fatigue toxins (probably mean lactic acids?), thus allowing him to have insane endurance.

Yeah. But he does still get tired eventually. How long until he does? I don't know, but his endurance is legendary, to say the least. Just look at all he's going through currently in Remender's run, he mention's how tired and beat up he is but is still going on and fighting. Truly amazing stamina, IMO.

Yeah his endurance in Remender's run is nuts. Has like a hundred broken bones and a gaping chest wound and he still fights even with all that blood loss.

It's crazy indeed. Makes you wonder can Steve even die...SSS super soldier indeed. And before anyone brings up his death that has special circumstances.

A. He was under "strength" dampeners when he got shot by Crossbones/Sharon.

And...

B. It was a special technological gun that transported his consciousness to the past parts of his life.

So without those two he would have healed up easily I bet.

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#171 Posted by X_Titans (158 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that it means that his genetics weren't tampered with to enhance him like someone like Spider-Man was.

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#172 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@alexander505 said:

Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

According to the Marvel Handbook, his body is able to prevent the buildup of fatigue toxins (probably mean lactic acids?), thus allowing him to have insane endurance.

Yeah. But he does still get tired eventually. How long until he does? I don't know, but his endurance is legendary, to say the least. Just look at all he's going through currently in Remender's run, he mention's how tired and beat up he is but is still going on and fighting. Truly amazing stamina, IMO.

Yeah his endurance in Remender's run is nuts. Has like a hundred broken bones and a gaping chest wound and he still fights even with all that blood loss.

It's crazy indeed. Makes you wonder can Steve even die...SSS super soldier indeed. And before anyone brings up his death that has special circumstances.

A. He was under "strength" dampeners when he got shot by Crossbones/Sharon.

And...

B. It was a special technological gun that transported his consciousness to the past parts of his life.

So without those two he would have healed up easily I bet.

The man's survived a bullet to the head, actually.

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#173 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@krauser99 said:

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@alexander505 said:

Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

According to the Marvel Handbook, his body is able to prevent the buildup of fatigue toxins (probably mean lactic acids?), thus allowing him to have insane endurance.

Yeah. But he does still get tired eventually. How long until he does? I don't know, but his endurance is legendary, to say the least. Just look at all he's going through currently in Remender's run, he mention's how tired and beat up he is but is still going on and fighting. Truly amazing stamina, IMO.

Yeah his endurance in Remender's run is nuts. Has like a hundred broken bones and a gaping chest wound and he still fights even with all that blood loss.

It's crazy indeed. Makes you wonder can Steve even die...SSS super soldier indeed. And before anyone brings up his death that has special circumstances.

A. He was under "strength" dampeners when he got shot by Crossbones/Sharon.

And...

B. It was a special technological gun that transported his consciousness to the past parts of his life.

So without those two he would have healed up easily I bet.

The man's survived a bullet to the head, actually.

True. But so have people in real life. While it is very rare, it's not impossible.

And also (not directed at you, just an opinion I'm posting on), Steve can die, it's a possibility that he may be ageless, due to the SSS, and some Hydra (IIRC) tampering, but he isn't invincible.

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#174 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

@veshark said:

@krauser99 said:

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@alexander505 said:

Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

According to the Marvel Handbook, his body is able to prevent the buildup of fatigue toxins (probably mean lactic acids?), thus allowing him to have insane endurance.

Yeah. But he does still get tired eventually. How long until he does? I don't know, but his endurance is legendary, to say the least. Just look at all he's going through currently in Remender's run, he mention's how tired and beat up he is but is still going on and fighting. Truly amazing stamina, IMO.

Yeah his endurance in Remender's run is nuts. Has like a hundred broken bones and a gaping chest wound and he still fights even with all that blood loss.

It's crazy indeed. Makes you wonder can Steve even die...SSS super soldier indeed. And before anyone brings up his death that has special circumstances.

A. He was under "strength" dampeners when he got shot by Crossbones/Sharon.

And...

B. It was a special technological gun that transported his consciousness to the past parts of his life.

So without those two he would have healed up easily I bet.

The man's survived a bullet to the head, actually.

True. But so have people in real life. While it is very rare, it's not impossible.

And also (not directed at you, just an opinion I'm posting on), Steve can die, it's a possibility that he may be ageless, due to the SSS, and some Hydra (IIRC) tampering, but he isn't invincible.

Yeah, I was just posting that in response to the earlier comment about Cap being shot by Crossbones. I agree with the fact that Cap can be killed, he's hardly invincible.

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#175 Edited by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@veshark said:

@krauser99 said:

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@alexander505 said:

Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

According to the Marvel Handbook, his body is able to prevent the buildup of fatigue toxins (probably mean lactic acids?), thus allowing him to have insane endurance.

Yeah. But he does still get tired eventually. How long until he does? I don't know, but his endurance is legendary, to say the least. Just look at all he's going through currently in Remender's run, he mention's how tired and beat up he is but is still going on and fighting. Truly amazing stamina, IMO.

Yeah his endurance in Remender's run is nuts. Has like a hundred broken bones and a gaping chest wound and he still fights even with all that blood loss.

It's crazy indeed. Makes you wonder can Steve even die...SSS super soldier indeed. And before anyone brings up his death that has special circumstances.

A. He was under "strength" dampeners when he got shot by Crossbones/Sharon.

And...

B. It was a special technological gun that transported his consciousness to the past parts of his life.

So without those two he would have healed up easily I bet.

The man's survived a bullet to the head, actually.

True. But so have people in real life. While it is very rare, it's not impossible.

And also (not directed at you, just an opinion I'm posting on), Steve can die, it's a possibility that he may be ageless, due to the SSS, and some Hydra (IIRC) tampering, but he isn't invincible.

Yeah, I was just posting that in response to the earlier comment about Cap being shot by Crossbones. I agree with the fact that Cap can be killed, he's hardly invincible.

Oh, yeah that wasn't directed at you, thinking you thought he was invincible or anything.

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#176 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio
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#177 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio
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#178 Posted by krauser99 (851 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

@veshark said:

@krauser99 said:

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@veshark said:

@tg1982 said:

@alexander505 said:

Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

According to the Marvel Handbook, his body is able to prevent the buildup of fatigue toxins (probably mean lactic acids?), thus allowing him to have insane endurance.

Yeah. But he does still get tired eventually. How long until he does? I don't know, but his endurance is legendary, to say the least. Just look at all he's going through currently in Remender's run, he mention's how tired and beat up he is but is still going on and fighting. Truly amazing stamina, IMO.

Yeah his endurance in Remender's run is nuts. Has like a hundred broken bones and a gaping chest wound and he still fights even with all that blood loss.

It's crazy indeed. Makes you wonder can Steve even die...SSS super soldier indeed. And before anyone brings up his death that has special circumstances.

A. He was under "strength" dampeners when he got shot by Crossbones/Sharon.

And...

B. It was a special technological gun that transported his consciousness to the past parts of his life.

So without those two he would have healed up easily I bet.

The man's survived a bullet to the head, actually.

True. But so have people in real life. While it is very rare, it's not impossible.

And also (not directed at you, just an opinion I'm posting on), Steve can die, it's a possibility that he may be ageless, due to the SSS, and some Hydra (IIRC) tampering, but he isn't invincible.

True but the comparison to real life people is rather different on your part as it does not bear much to Steve's head shot feat. Real people require several weeks to months of medical attention, surgery and even after that time to recover. Or then the one's that survive due to the bullet just being a grazing shot. Or a bullet that does not do any damage to the brain and only just the portions of the skull.

With Steve he was pronounced dead and seemed to recover in 12 minutes after he was shot, without to much time nor any real medical care given.

So if he can die it seems that it is rather difficult to accomplish it. Barring outside of alternate reality deaths, there's no telling how difficult it is to kill Steve. When I stated can he even die? I meant it more towards regular ways of death, don't seem to work on him. Does not mean I was implying he is invincible, since your post seems more on what I had posted.

Being encased in ice for decades.

Being put in cryogenic freeze as he was.

His head shot wound that occurred.

His chest piece feat.

Surviving Red Sculls red dusk gas(which killed 1000s IIRC)

All these would kill regular people easily not to mention top notch fictional characters like Batman, Taskmaster, Hawkeye, etc etc. But Steve just seems to be "super".

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#179 Edited by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99 said:

True but the comparison to real life people is rather different on your part as it does not bear much to Steve's head shot feat. Real people require several weeks to months of medical attention, surgery and even after that time to recover. Or then the one's that survive due to the bullet just being a grazing shot. Or a bullet that does not do any damage to the brain and only just the portions of the skull.

I never said Steve couldn't heal faster than a normal human.

So if he can die it seems that it is rather difficult to accomplish it. Barring outside of alternate reality deaths, there's no telling how difficult it is to kill Steve. When I stated can he even die? I meant it more towards regular ways of death, don't seem to work on him. Does not mean I was implying he is invincible, since your post seems more on what I had posted.

Of course it's hard to kill Captain America, if it was easy, the comic wouldn't have lasted for over 70 years. ;-)

The fact is Cap can die, he can die in many of the same ways a normal human can die. He can fall to his death, get crushed, die in explosions, and even by being shot.

@krauser99 said:

Being put in cryogenic freeze as he was.

His head shot wound that occurred.

His chest piece feat.

Surviving Red Sculls red dusk gas(which killed 1000s IIRC)

All these would kill regular people easily not to mention top notch fictional characters like Batman, Taskmaster, Hawkeye, etc etc. But Steve just seems to be "super".

When was he put in cryogenic stasis? Or are you saying the ice was like a cryogenic stasis?

His head shot wound was PIS. It happened one time, and then a half-assed explanation was given.

I don't understand, "chest piece feat"?

It's been stated that the SSS made Steve immune to all terrestrial diseases, and has a stronger immune system, making him able to fight off poisons that normal humans could not. So of course he would survive the Red Skull's dust, due to the SSS, his immune system was able to fight it off.

I'm not saying that Steve isn't enhanced in some areas. In specifically his physiology and metabolism, but he is not "super".

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#180 Posted by krauser99 (851 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

@krauser99 said:

True but the comparison to real life people is rather different on your part as it does not bear much to Steve's head shot feat. Real people require several weeks to months of medical attention, surgery and even after that time to recover. Or then the one's that survive due to the bullet just being a grazing shot. Or a bullet that does not do any damage to the brain and only just the portions of the skull.

I never said Steve couldn't heal faster than a normal human.

So if he can die it seems that it is rather difficult to accomplish it. Barring outside of alternate reality deaths, there's no telling how difficult it is to kill Steve. When I stated can he even die? I meant it more towards regular ways of death, don't seem to work on him. Does not mean I was implying he is invincible, since your post seems more on what I had posted.

Of course it's hard to kill Captain America, if it was easy, the comic wouldn't have lasted for over 70 years. ;-)

The fact is Cap can die, he can die in many of the same ways a normal human can die. He can fall to his death, get crushed, die in explosions, and even by being shot.

Show me him dying in the same way a normal human can die? Exactly my point we don't know the extent of the SSS or his healing. Not unless shown. And it seems ways that the norm can die, doesn't work on him.

@krauser99 said:

Being put in cryogenic freeze as he was.

His head shot wound that occurred.

His chest piece feat.

Surviving Red Sculls red dusk gas(which killed 1000s IIRC)

All these would kill regular people easily not to mention top notch fictional characters like Batman, Taskmaster, Hawkeye, etc etc. But Steve just seems to be "super".

When was he put in cryogenic stasis? Or are you saying the ice was like a cryogenic stasis?

Both feats. He lived in ice for decades after plane incident. And another time he was put in cryogenic freeze.

His head shot wound was PIS. It happened one time, and then a half-assed explanation was given.

His head shot was incredible healing. As he has stated he can heal bullet wounds fast because he is "built" that way. He has even healed burns in seconds.

I don't understand, "chest piece feat"?

Current run where he ripped out the Zola screen from his chest.

It's been stated that the SSS made Steve immune to all terrestrial diseases, and has a stronger immune system, making him able to fight off poisons that normal humans could not. So of course he would survive the Red Skull's dust, due to the SSS, his immune system was able to fight it off.

Exactly my point. Most humans can easily die from even alcohol poisoning. Steve it does not even affect.

I'm not saying that Steve isn't enhanced in some areas. In specifically his physiology and metabolism, but he is not "super".

I view him as a super. Super Soldier ;)

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#181 Posted by tg1982 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99 said: Show me him dying in the same way a normal human can die? Exactly my point we don't know the extent of the SSS or his healing. Not unless shown. And it seems ways that the norm can die, doesn't work on him.

Really? By that logic, Batman can't die, Daredevil can't die, even Bucky can't die.

Both feats. He lived in ice for decades after plane incident. And another time he was put in cryogenic freeze.

The frozen in ice feat is a part of his character, so I won't even discuss it since, we both know all about it and agree that his SSS kept him alive.

As for the cryogenic freezing, that's not even a feat. Bucky was cryogenically frozen between missions as the Winter Soldier.

His head shot was incredible healing. As he has stated he can heal bullet wounds fast because he is "built" that way. He has even healed burns in seconds.

Again I'm not talking about his healing. I've already said his healing is enhanced. His head shot was PIS, the way it's even explain is half-assed. I happened one time, and was never mentioned again.

Current run where he ripped out the Zola screen from his chest.

Yes that is a great feat. One of my favorites in the current arc. But again I'm not discrediting his healing, or even his durability and endurance.

Exactly my point. Most humans can easily die from even alcohol poisoning. Steve it does not even affect.

And when did I say alcohol doesn't effect Steve? I said he can die in MANY of the same ways a regular human can die, not EVERY way.

I view him as a super. Super Soldier ;)

Fair enough, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But I view him as a "high peak/ low leveled enhanced" human.

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#182 Edited by krauser99 (851 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

@krauser99 said: Show me him dying in the same way a normal human can die? Exactly my point we don't know the extent of the SSS or his healing. Not unless shown. And it seems ways that the norm can die, doesn't work on him.

Really? By that logic, Batman can't die, Daredevil can't die, even Bucky can't die.

But there's a distinction as in Batman can't live through a bullet through the head, alcohol poisoning, or ripping out the equivalent of a Zola screen from your chest etc etc.

So yes they can die ways that Steve would live through.

Both feats. He lived in ice for decades after plane incident. And another time he was put in cryogenic freeze.

The frozen in ice feat is a part of his character, so I won't even discuss it since, we both know all about it and agree that his SSS kept him alive.

Of course the SSS enhanced Steve's body but that's just the benefit that he gets. He can live through it as he was built that way. Batman, Daredevil not so much.

As for the cryogenic freezing, that's not even a feat. Bucky was cryogenically frozen between missions as the Winter Soldier.

Yes but he was awaken from his first freeze by heating up the body to a certain temperature and then they gave him electrical shocks, resuscitation, and adrenaline directly into the heart. But if they had not done that, Bucky would have remained dead from his ice slumber unlike Steve.

Steve you just thaw him out and he's good to go.

Again I'm not talking about his healing. I've already said his healing is enhanced. His head shot was PIS, the way it's even explain is half-assed. I happened one time, and was never mentioned again.

And? His Zola feat has been a one timer as well. But it seems to be in his capabilities.

Yes that is a great feat. One of my favorites in the current arc. But again I'm not discrediting his healing, or even his durability and endurance.

It helps my point that it takes a lot to kill Steve.

Exactly my point. Most humans can easily die from even alcohol poisoning. Steve it does not even affect.

And when did I say alcohol doesn't effect Steve? I said he can die in MANY of the same ways a regular human can die, not EVERY way.

Fair enough. Still the limitations of his healing/recovery hasn't been explored only by certain writers as well.

Fair enough, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But I view him as a "high peak/ low leveled enhanced" human.

I view him as Peak potential/low level Super human.

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#183 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982: Sorry for the delay, as always :)

I managed to do some digging, and I think I've found a great resource to demonstrate the point I was making about the different ratios for lifting.

It's hard getting a straight answer as fitness people will say it depends on the exercises and how your rain and such, which is all true, but not useful for getting information about a comic book character.

As such, this site has ratios for different weights and performance levels, and I think this is a good general indicator.

So, using the most impressive male set from their grid after clicking on press (320 pounds, trained to to highest level) you can see if they can press 285lbs.

If we go to bench press, we can see they can bench press 425lbs. 285 is roughly 2/3rd of 425 (67%).

It's even more impressive if we look at deadlift, where the same individual can lift 615lbs, more than double of what they can do in a military press.

What this means, for those rabid cap fans who insist he is superhuman paying attention, is that there is no feat showing him to be anything more than peak as far as strength is concerned. Given that marvel lists him as peak which means he can lift 800lbs directly above his head an an overhead press, and vastly more than that in different positions.

I think this is worthy of a new topic by itself.

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#184 Posted by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: @tg1982: @krauser99: @muyjingo:

Any enhanced attribute of having above durability, strength or speed would make someone considered enhanced. They do not need to have all three. So we already have established that Captain America's durability is enhanced. He's running around with a big hole in his chest currently and recently fell off a building fighting Zola in Captain America #9. He already falls out of airplanes that smash cars in half and causes craters.

More notable durability feats are:

1. His fight with Namor. Namor was slamming and hitting him against rocks and boulders on the beach causing the cause to explode to pieces.

2. He has fallen out of plans regularly smashing cars in half when he landed on one. He even slammed John Steel from the air which caused a giant crater in the ground without getting harmed.

3. He was in a building with a bunch of Hydra soldiers with it exploding. It explodes and kills everyone except for him. He also survived Gambits charge explosion to the chest.

Strength and Speed is probably just as easy to prove as durability is. Bucky Barnes performs more close to an Olympic athlete. In this scan, he is quoted as saying

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"Charging right in.... Steve was always better at that. Of course Steve was about three times stronger and faster than me, too. but it's not like I haven't fought whole hordes of bad guys in my day. I'm just more used to doing it covertly and taking out specific targets. Tactical hits designed to do the most harm with least effort and using the enemy's strengths against them. But those methods still work. They just need a little adapting." From Captain America 34 Volume 5

You need Bucky feats? They're all here. http://www.comicvine.com/bucky-barnes/4005-40470/forums/bucky-barnes-respect-thread-662398/

For Steve to perform the following feats, he would have to throw his shield with incredible amounts of strength and speed. His shield weighs 12 lbs, there is no man in the world that can throw a shield like Steve can.

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Or perform gymnastics that propel and launch himself 10 stories high into the air.

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When it comes to "peak human" the perfect specimens in the Marvel Universe are probably Bucky and Dare Devil.

There was a story of when Captain America lost the Super Soldier formula and was reduced to just a Peak Human, the whole point of the story was that he was only "PEAK" human, and that's when he fought and defeated Crossbones without the Super Soldier formula. This was when he was peak human, and when they fixed him he became Enhanced back to his higher levels again.

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#185 Edited by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry I couldn't make a more elaborate post but I am currently at work and very busy.

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#186 Posted by kasino (2048 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he is just the peak of human physical abilities.

I think people think he is somehow more then this because they, like I, don't know the extent a human can be.

there are strongmen who pull trucks and then theirs olympians like Phelps/Bolts

its hard to imagine one person with all those traits but thats what guys like Caps/Bats/Punisher/DD/Green Arrow are supposed to be

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#187 Posted by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

@kasino:

Captain America can run at 60 MPH while holding a 140 lb bucky and a 12 lb shield plus his utility belt. Faster an Bolt.

Look at the scan above, he propels himself on a pole using gymnastics and flies high up onto a building. Much higher than the Olympic record.

He has thrown his 12 lb shield through a truck and high enough to slice rotors off helicopters. He has also thrown a concrete composite that weighed 100lbs+ through a building demolishing the top half and knocking two men out of it. Much more impressive than men throwing barrels over their head.

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#188 Edited by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@veshark: @tg1982: @krauser99: @muyjingo:

Any enhanced attribute of having above durability, strength or speed would make someone considered enhanced. They do not need to have all three. So we already have established that Captain America's durability is enhanced. He's running around with a big hole in his chest currently and recently fell off a building fighting Zola in Captain America #9. He already falls out of airplanes that smash cars in half and causes craters.


Having one enhanced attributed does not make you enhanced overall, it makes you enhanced in that specific area.

Captain America's has an enhanced healing factor, certainly, although slow acting.

1. His fight with Namor. Namor was slamming and hitting him against rocks and boulders on the beach causing the cause to explode to pieces.

OK, here is the deal. Stuff like this has to be shown consistently, or it essentially doesn't count. If it's isnt shown consistently and shows the character as being above his power level, it's PIS.

I'm guess you meant causing rocks to explode to pieces, which would mean Captain America is harder/denser than rock. That certainly isn't shown consistently.

2. He has fallen out of plans regularly smashing cars in half when he landed on one. He even slammed John Steel from the air which caused a giant crater in the ground without getting harmed.

Captain America weighs almost 300 pounds. Any 300 pound weight dropping from a sufficient height will make the roof of a car collapse. What does that prove, exactly?

3. He was in a building with a bunch of Hydra soldiers with it exploding. It explodes and kills everyone except for him. He also survived Gambits charge explosion to the chest.

OK, details are necessary here. was he in the same blast radius? Did he have protection?

Strength and Speed is probably just as easy to prove as durability is. Bucky Barnes performs more close to an Olympic athlete. In this scan, he is quoted as saying

Strength and Speed is what's interesting.

For Strength, there hasn't been a single scan that you or anyone else has posted showing him to be above peak strength.

For speed, we have a single instance where his speed was stated at 60mph/ from the silver age no less. I think there was one other scan that showed him as running at 48mph or something. 2 scans in over 50 years of issues...hardly consistent or recurring.

For Steve to perform the following feats, he would have to throw his shield with incredible amounts of strength and speed. His shield weighs 12 lbs, there is no man in the world that can throw a shield like Steve can.

Or perform gymnastics that propel and launch himself 10 stories high into the air.

Both of those feats are impressive, that's great.

They don't show that he is more than peak human though.

When it comes to "peak human" the perfect specimens in the Marvel Universe are probably Bucky and Dare Devil.

Bucky and Daredevil are actually considered Olympic level, not Peak.

There was a story of when Captain America lost the Super Soldier formula and was reduced to just a Peak Human, the whole point of the story was that he was only "PEAK" human, and that's when he fought and defeated Crossbones without the Super Soldier formula. This was when he was peak human, and when they fixed him he became Enhanced back to his higher levels again.

Is this based on you assuming he was reduced to peak level, or does it actually say that in the comic? The scan you posted only showed the effects of the serum were absent.

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#189 Posted by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

Lets discuss one thing at a time. First, him falling out of the planes. You asked what does this prove, it proves his durability is enhanced. You ask for consistency, seems pretty consistent to me.

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You're telling me that a man can drop out of the sky without any ill or harm? Find me ANY news article of ANY man performing a similar feat.

Please share any peak man feats that have fallen from heights similar to Captain America without any injuries.

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#190 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo:

Lets discuss one thing at a time. First, him falling out of the planes. You asked what does this prove, it proves his durability is enhanced. You ask for consistency, seems pretty consistent to me.

There were 3 times it happened, right? OK, that's more than fair enough.

As to it proving his durability is enhanced? No, it proves that it is peak....

To quote:

Peak Human Durability: His bones and muscles are denser and harder than normal, to the highest human potential, which makes him very durable compared to a normal human. He is durable enough to the point that if a person beats him with a thick wooden stick, the stick would eventually break and Rogers would show little discomfort. This level of durability is how he survived other forms of extensive punishment throughout his career such as falls from several stories like when he landed on a car from 6,000cm (200 feet) with no discomfort.

They specifically list the falling several stories and landing on a car feat as an example of Peak Human...

You're telling me that a man can drop out of the sky without any ill or harm? Find me ANY news article of ANY man performing a similar feat.

Please share any peak man feats that have fallen from heights similar to Captain America without any injuries.

That makes absolutely no sense. The real world has nothing to do with the Marvel universe. Peak Humans don't even exist in our world.

It doesn't matter though. He can do it, that's fine. It also doesn't prove he is anything more than peak.

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#191 Posted by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo:

Lets discuss one thing at a time. First, him falling out of the planes. You asked what does this prove, it proves his durability is enhanced. You ask for consistency, seems pretty consistent to me.

There were 3 times it happened, right? OK, that's more than fair enough.

As to it proving his durability is enhanced? No, it proves that it is peak....

To quote:

Peak Human Durability: His bones and muscles are denser and harder than normal, to the highest human potential, which makes him very durable compared to a normal human. He is durable enough to the point that if a person beats him with a thick wooden stick, the stick would eventually break and Rogers would show little discomfort. This level of durability is how he survived other forms of extensive punishment throughout his career such as falls from several stories like when he landed on a car from 6,000cm (200 feet) with no discomfort.

They specifically list the falling several stories and landing on a car feat as an example of Peak Human...

You're telling me that a man can drop out of the sky without any ill or harm? Find me ANY news article of ANY man performing a similar feat.

Please share any peak man feats that have fallen from heights similar to Captain America without any injuries.

That makes absolutely no sense. The real world has nothing to do with the Marvel universe. Peak Humans don't even exist in our world.

It doesn't matter though. He can do it, that's fine. It also doesn't prove he is anything more than peak.

There's probably more times that it happened. I do not understand your counter argument or how it proves anything.

We both agree that Batman is Peak human am I correct? Can you show me where Batman has jumped aerially and landed on the ground with destruction without harming himself or using his cape to break his fall? Or rather anything breaking his fall?

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#192 Edited by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

There's probably more times that it happened. I do not understand your counter argument or how it proves anything.

You are saying that his jumping out of a plane and crushing a car means his durability is enhanced, as opposed to peak.

That very feat is given as an example of him being a peak human. Ergo, that feat shows that he is peak, as opposed to enhanced for durability.

We both agree that Batman is Peak human am I correct? Can you show me where Batman has jumped aerially and landed on the ground with destruction without harming himself or using his cape to break his fall? Or rather anything breaking his fall?

I'm not really a fan of this type of arguing. I don't know if I can find a scan of Batman doing something similar. I do think there may be scans, so I'll look, but if there aren't I don't know what it will prove.

I can find scans of Batman with far more impressive durability feats than have been posted for Cap. It would be like asking you to find scans of Cap performing the same feat Batman is doing to prove he is at Batman's level, right? If you couldn't, it wouldn't mean he isn't.

If you want to argue that Cap is Enhanced, all I want to see to concede the point is evidence of him doing things that would classify him as Enhanced in the MU. So far, all of the feats shown firmly support him being Peak (aside from health and perhaps speed/reflexes).

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#193 Edited by kasino (2048 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: humans have the theoretical capability of running 19.3 meters per second

if a human runs that theoretical speed for 100 meters they would finish in 5.18 seconds

thats roughly 43mph

so kinda close. longs as his stamina keeps up and his legs hit the ground harder he can theoretical go faster.

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#194 Edited by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: So are we agreeing that Captain America's durability is enhanced? I believe you agreed it was earlier. And what kind of debate style do you like? Should we take it to a community vote?

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#195 Posted by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

@kasino said:

@slimj87d: humans have the theoretical capability of running 19.3 meters per second

if a human runs that theoretical speed for 100 meters they would finish in 5.18 seconds

thats roughly 43mph

so kinda close. longs as his stamina keeps up and his legs hit the ground harder he can theoretical go faster.

Just to let you know he did it for 5 miles straight holding Bucky who was 140 lbs, his 12 lb shield and his utility belt which might have some of his gear.

So I don't think that's close at all.

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#196 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Just to clarify, you share Brubaker's line that Cap's physiology is what humans have the potential to become right? Hence his greater than peak human feats.

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#197 Posted by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@slimj87d: Just to clarify, you share Brubaker's line that Cap's physiology is what humans have the potential to become right? Hence his greater than peak human feats.

I have, but the OP doesn't care about what Ed Brubaker and the 2 other scans from 2 other authors have to say. The basis of his argument is that he handbook says he's peak human then he is and nothing can counter argue it at all. So that's why i'd rather take this to a vote and see what the vine things themselves.

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#198 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo: So are we agreeing that Captain America's durability is enhanced? I believe you agreed it was earlier. And what kind of debate style do you like? Should we take it to a community vote?

Whatever gave you that impression?

I don't consider his durability enhanced, I consider it peak. As I said, the description for him having peak human durability lists the jumping out of planes feat as an example..

What reason do you have to consider it enhanced, when Marvel lists him as peak and classifies the jumping out of a plane feat as a peak feat?

As for debate style....I would prefer not a community vote. This is definitely a situation where might won't equal right. I'm not as familiar with the character as you are, but how about if we take each thing at a time, and you shows scans (I don't expect you to do that though, issue numbers or descriptions are also fine) and I will concede or not.

As I mentioned with tg1982 above, I think they key is consistency. A single feat won't prove anything, but a few feats showing a pattern will. Would you agree with that?

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#199 Edited by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo: So are we agreeing that Captain America's durability is enhanced? I believe you agreed it was earlier. And what kind of debate style do you like? Should we take it to a community vote?

Whatever gave you that impression?

I don't consider his durability enhanced, I consider it peak. As I said, the description for him having peak human durability lists the jumping out of planes feat as an example..

What reason do you have to consider it enhanced, when Marvel lists him as peak and classifies the jumping out of a plane feat as a peak feat?

As for debate style....I would prefer not a community vote. This is definitely a situation where might won't equal right. I'm not as familiar with the character as you are, but how about if we take each thing at a time, and you shows scans (I don't expect you to do that though, issue numbers or descriptions are also fine) and I will concede or not.

As I mentioned with tg1982 above, I think they key is consistency. A single feat won't prove anything, but a few feats showing a pattern will. Would you agree with that?

You got that from a wikipedia source. I write some of the entries over at marvel wikia just to let you know. Nothing from that site is actually official. Only it's sources which are sometimes wrongfully interpreted and debated privately when we write entries between users.

As for consistency, he ran at 60 MPH two times or even more as he hasn't been clocked each time he has sprinted. The two times he did it were with him holding weight or running in the snow. Peak human characters like Batman don't even run at 60 MPH one time.

The only way to debate this is by comparing a peak human that we both agree on with Steve, and that would be Batman because by comic book standards Batman is a peak human.

So we're not done with the durability thing, lets put the rest aside. With a giant hole ripped in his chest he falls several stories off of a building. Other users have already shared the scans with you when he tore a giant part of himself out of hist chest.

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#200 Posted by MuyJingo (2862 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

You got that from a wikipedia source. I write some of the entries over at marvel wikia just to let you know. Nothing from that site is actually official. Only it's sources which are sometimes wrongfully interpreted and debated privately when we write entries between users.

Let's get something straight, as I'm pretty sure you were dismissing anything from Wikipedia or the Wikia sites the last time we talked. Apologies if that was in fact not you and someone else.

Wiki sites have a reputation as being unreliable, because "anyone can edit". This generally isn't true, or at least an edit will not be approved. Within the community edits are reviewed, sources need to be provided etc. Despite the community aspect, the entries are pretty darn accurate. If anything, accuracy is proportional to the character, and so the Captain America page would be one of the most accurate.

I have no issue with disputing a Wikipedia entry, but I don't think it should be automatically dismissed, or at least not without good reason.

Still, no source is given for the jumping out of a plane feat to be classified as peak, so we need to establish that some other way.

I'm happy to do that by feats. It should not be ignored that his uniform seems to give him a significant advantage also.

Quoting from the wiki:

Uniform: As Captain America he wears a water and fire retardant costume, which is made of kevlar, nomex and light weight titanium. The costume also offers a medium level of resistance to electric shocks and force impacts i.e., falls from 30 meters height and The suit cannot be pierced by normal conventional sharp edged materials like sharp wood, glass, iron, copper and aluminum.

Do you find that to be accurate?

As for consistency, he ran at 60 MPH two times or even more as he hasn't been clocked each time he has sprinted. The two times he did it were with him holding weight or running in the snow. Peak human characters like Batman don't even run at 60 MPH one time.

Steve's upper limit for speed listed as a peak human is 30mph. In the entire history of the character there only seem to be 2 times that his running speed was actually stated. One was 60mph from the silver age, and the other time (scan somewhere in this thread I believe) was 40 something, IIRC.

Unless his speed is actually stated, we are assuming the speed. I think it makes more sense to assume his speed is not more than the upper limit Marvel puts him at.

I think that makes more sense than assuming the one time his speed was stated as double that was accurate and is in fact his upper limit. I mean, it's easy to find a scan of Batman doing something overpowered, but it makes more sense to write it of as PIS unless it is shown consistently. Steve's speed is not stated consistently...so that can't apply.

The only way to debate this is by comparing a peak human that we both agree on with Steve, and that would be Batman because by comic book standards Batman is a peak human.

OK, sure. I was happy to judge Steve on his own merits using the definitions Marvel provides. I think comparing him to Batman actually makes it a lot easier.

So we're not done with the durability thing, lets put the rest aside. With a giant hole ripped in his chest he falls several stories off of a building. Other users have already shared the scans with you when he tore a giant part of himself out of hist chest.

OK. So let's not forget the uniform advantage, is that is indeed a factor. So all I have to do is show some equivalent Batman feats, right?

I think being stabbed close to the heart with a shovel after being burned from fighting in fire and getting back up is equal to caps hole in the chest feat above.

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And here is Batman falling 30 feet and showing not even a sign of pain...this is equivalent to Cap's falling feat you posted above, no?

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Here he is getting smacked around by a supernaturally enhanced human, who is strong enough to punch through a concrete column. It doesn't seem to affect him too much.

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Impaled, blinded, multiple bones broken...still manages to win a fight against a martial artist with literally centuries of experience.

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Falling 30 stores and managing to break his fall after suffering vicious attacks before and on the way down

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Surviving in the vacuum of space for 24 seconds without protection

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So from what I can see, Bruce is at least as durable as Captain America, if not more so.

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