The Black Panther and PIS

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vance_astro

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#51  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:
http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort/q/314029065185003479
Is this supposed to disprove something I said? 
 
@Umbraa said:
 I don't think he's like you are saying.
Show me a source that disproves what I said. Brevoort's formspring doesn't. 
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#52  Edited By Umbraa

I already proved you wrong and others have also.. That just adds to it. They don't view it as you do. You are stating your opinion. That's fine, but it doesn't mean it's correct! Like I said, in the scene the boy calls it a Valcan grip or something. "hardness" of skin will not stop a interal martial art where such things don't matter...especially in a fictional made up work. There nothing "PIS" about it. Hard skin never stops internal martial arts in faction. Smh.

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#53  Edited By Mykhael

"Writers aren't allowed to only apply realism when it's convenient"

Every writer does that all the time and so do readers. The fact is that stranger things have happened in comics than Luke Cage being taken down by presure points.

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#54  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:

I already proved you wrong and others have also.. That just adds to it. They don't view it as you do. You are stating your opinion. That's fine, but it doesn't mean it's correct! Like I said, in the scene the boy calls it a Valcan grip or something. "hardness" of skin will not stop a interal martial art where such things don't matter...especially in a fictional made up work. There nothing "PIS" about it. Hard skin never stops internal martial arts in faction. Smh.

You obviously don't have a clue what you're even arguing at this point because the question Brevoort answered has NOTHING to do with what I said and nobody whom has posted so far has disproved anything I said. You keep saying, "The boy said it was the Valcan grip", SO WHAT? The person that is saying is making an observation. He's not a martial artist, so how would he know what exactly it was? He made a connection with Star Trek because that's what he knows.
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#55  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Mykhael said:

The fact is that stranger things have happened in comics than Luke Cage being taken down by presure points.

Those things are PIS.
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#56  Edited By Umbraa

Wow, settle down, :) and yes it does when you are claiming the writer doesn't know what he is talking about... it does matter. It's not just a observation, a real person wrote that, and HE was aware when writing it. A shout out to fans looking for the Doomwar style that never came to be. My point is he was wrote that for a reason! Your excuse is pretty flimsy here, because you have not shown anything at all to refute anything. It doesn't mean that it's PIS, because you say so... that's you saying it..as fact. Sorry..it's not. It's a misinformed opinion. Again, Cage has been put down with Strikes before! So T'challa doing it, should not be a problem. And I guess if you want to hold on to 1970 descriptions you can...Marvel is moving on...he has bullet proof, nearly unbreakable skin...but it's not stiff in the manner you suggest. It's hard as steel/titanium or whatever you want to say..but in terms of toughness...and that scene and others with him getting strike proves it. Show me something with someone...a character of equal skill, doing the same exact skill/move and you will have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

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#57  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:
Wow, settle down, :) 
There's no exclamation points in my post. I'm calm.
 
@Umbraa said:
and yes it does when you are claiming the writer doesn't know what he is talking about... it does matter. It's not just a observation, a real person wrote that, and HE was aware when writing it. A shout out to fans looking for the Doomwar style that never came to be. My point is he was wrote that for a reason!
I'm not trying to PROVE the writer doesn't know what he's talking about. It's my opinion that he doesn't. If you think that I'm wrong then YOU disprove what I said. A real person writing the book has nothing to do with the context.  
 
@Umbraa said:
Your excuse is pretty flimsy here, because you have not shown anything at all to refute anything. 
I haven't made an excuses in this thread so I don't even know what this is in reference to.  
 
@Umbraa said:
It doesn't mean that it's PIS, because you say so... that's you saying it..as fact. Sorry..it's not. It's a misinformed opinion. Again, Cage has been put down with Strikes before! So T'challa doing it, should not be a problem. 
It's not PIS because I said so, it is however PIS TO ME, because I don't believe i've been given a valid proof as to why i'm wrong. Cage being put down by nerve strikes before doesn't matter, there are TONS of things that have happened before and are STILL PIS.   
 
@Umbraa said:
 And I guess if you want to hold on to 1970 descriptions you can...Marvel is moving on...
This states that Cage has "steel-hard skin" and it's not from the 1970's, it's from the Civil War Damage report, I believe this came out in like '05-'06. Stop acting like you work at Marvel.
No Caption Provided
 
@Umbraa said:
he has bullet proof, nearly unbreakable skin...but it's not stiff in the manner you suggest.
I think this shows you don't know what I suggested. I never said his skin was stiff. [pause} something that is hard doesn't have to be stiff. If Cage's skin wasn't flexible he wouldn't be able to move. I said this already.
 
@Umbraa said:
It's hard as steel/titanium or whatever you want to say..but in terms of toughness...and that scene and others with him getting strike proves it. Show me something with someone...a character of equal skill, doing the same exact skill/move and you will have a point. Otherwise, you don't.
Read this to yourself, and tell me if it makes sense. I don't know how to respond to it.
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#58  Edited By Mykhael

This is why the hole concept of PIS is just stupid to me.

You know what else shouldn't happen? Superman flying (I know they explained it but how long did it take?), or Lois Lan surviving sex with him.

If things more unrealistic than BP beat Cage are PIS than 75 percent of all comics is PIS.

Hell, the existence of certain characers is PIS, Galactus, Silver Surfer, Superman being killed, coming back to life, all the magic in comics, the Hulk, how a mutation could give you super powers and most wrtiers could not really understand how a radioactive spider could give someone Super powers.

We are talking about a man with steel skin.

The fact is it may be far fetched but it is realistic for someone to punch and dent steele if hit hard enough. Panther hurt his hand after he Punched Cage, it probably would've been more realistic had he broken his hand but he did hurt it none the less.

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#59  Edited By TheCheeseStabber

When did he fight Red Skull O.o?

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#60  Edited By Mykhael

In avengers Red Zone

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#61  Edited By WARLOCK2792
@Vance Astro: I never said his skin was stiff. [pause} something that is hard doesn't have to be stiff. If Cage's skin wasn't flexible he wouldn't be able to move. I said this already.

hahahahahahahaha

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#62  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Mykhael said:

This is why the hole concept of PIS is just stupid to me.

It shouldn't be. It's not very hard to grasp (no offense) 
 
@Mykhael said:

You know what else shouldn't happen? Superman flying (I know they explained it but how long did it take?), or Lois Lan surviving sex with him.

Superman's flight has been explained so it's not PIS. Whether he can have sex with Lois or not is beyond me. Maybe if he's not on top..Iunno, they don't really go into how it's possible so I guess it's best to ignore it. It's not important. 
 
@Mykhael said:

If things more unrealistic than BP beat Cage are PIS than 75 percent of all comics is PIS.

ALOT of things in comics ARE PIS that's why in battle forums we take what is consistent from all of their appearances and not just what we see in one issue or in bios. 
 
@Mykhael said:

Hell, the existence of certain characers is PIS, Galactus, Silver Surfer, Superman being killed, coming back to life, all the magic in comics, the Hulk, how a mutation could give you super powers and most wrtiers could not really understand how a radioactive spider could give someone Super powers.

Those things aren't PIS. There's a difference between PIS and bad writing. In the case of Spider-Man what gave him his powers is bad writing but his powers are established so anything that goes against what those powers are supposed to be is PIS. Whenever what happens in a comic isn't logical or is contradictory to a characters abilities, it's PIS. For example, several human level characters have been able to hit the Flash in motion. THAT'S PIS because although how he gained super speed may not be scientifically possible, he has them and we've seen what they can do, so for someone slower by a GAPING margin to be capable of timing him or attacking him, is PIS. You get it? 
 
@Mykhael said:

The fact is it may be far fetched but it is realistic for someone to punch and dent steele if hit hard enough. Panther hurt his hand after he Punched Cage, it probably would've been more realistic had he broken his hand but he did hurt it none the less.

He didn't DENT steel. Black Panther isn't capable of denting or blemishing Luke Cage. When Cage got injured they had to use a powerful laser to open him up. He's fought characters that are ALOT stronger than Black Panther without sustaining a blemish. It still makes no sense that Cage's nerves would be vulnerable to whom is essentially just a human.
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#63  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@White Mage said:
@Vance Astro: I never said his skin was stiff. [pause} something that is hard doesn't have to be stiff. If Cage's skin wasn't flexible he wouldn't be able to move. I said this already.

hahahahahahahaha

LOL.
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#64  Edited By Umbraa

So Vance that now counts? If it does, I have the same saying T'challa is near SH and Superhuman? Lmao. See how that works? Like I said, point out a character of similar skill as T'challa... doing the same to move on Cage. Show when he blocks it or that he is immune. Otherwise you point is just a opinion. Cage HAS been taken down this way. You have not proved it was PIS at all. Fact is he did a move that was not physical. He didn't punch him, jab him. The move was purely a internal (soft) martial arts move, that does not require "hard" force...

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#65  Edited By BMcKinnis

Nerve attacks in almost every fictional medium have basically just involved a light touch of whatever targeted area. This argument seems silly and just for the sake of arguing.

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#66  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:

So Vance that now counts? If it does, I have the same saying T'challa is near SH and Superhuman? Lmao. See how that works? Like I said, point out a character of similar skill as T'challa... doing the same to move on Cage. Show when he blocks it or that he is immune. Otherwise you point is just a opinion. Cage HAS been taken down this way. You have not proved it was PIS at all. Fact is he did a move that was not physical. He didn't punch him, jab him. The move was purely a internal (soft) martial arts move, that does not require "hard" force...

I didn't say that it counts. I posted it because you said "You can hold on to 1970's descriptions if you want, Marvel has moved on", and no I don't see how that works because you're comparing something written about T'challa that is inconsistent and I gave you something that's usually in ALL of Cage's descriptions it may be worded SLIGHTLY different but it basically gives you the same thing every time. 
 
My point has ALWAYS been just an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's misinformed. I told you like 2-3 posts ago, I'm not trying to prove anything. I believe that what was shown for Black Panther against Cage is PIS, and nothing said in this thread has convinced me otherwise. If you don't agree with me, we can agree to disagree..I'm not shoving my opinion down your throat, you CHOSE to argue with me. I haven't proven that it was PIS, but you haven't proved it wasn't either. Nerve attacks are physical no matter how much you want to deny it. Since you're stuck on the fact that this was supposedly a "Vulcan nerve pinch", look up how it's actually done. It requires physical strength to be effective.

@BMcKinnis said:

Nerve attacks in almost every fictional medium have basically just involved a light touch of whatever targeted area.  

I don't know what comics you've read where this is true, but i've seen nerve attacks used in several different comics and it wasn't a light touch.  
 
@BMcKinnis said:

This argument seems silly and just for the sake of arguing.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, but you can think what you want.
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#67  Edited By BMcKinnis

I can't use the quote feature from work but I'm sure each of those instances you refer to gave a detailed summary of exactly how much force was applied and a lengthy explanation of the history of the move as well. Sounds riveting. Most comics I've read just show Batman/Daredevil/Panther/Etc. touching someone and they fall over. Sometimes there are even little lightning bolts.

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#68  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@BMcKinnis said:
I can't use the quote feature from work but I'm sure each of those instances you refer to gave a detailed summary of exactly how much force was applied and a lengthy explanation of the history of the move as well. Sounds riveting. Most comics I've read just show Batman/Daredevil/Panther/Etc. touching someone and they fall over. Sometimes there are even little lightning bolts.
Have you seen Daredevil's fight with Hyde? From the way it looks on panel it may appear that he just "touched" him but from the speed lines on his arm and the onomatopoeia it appears he applied force. 
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#69  Edited By BMcKinnis

Okay... and when Panther did it he didn't need to aply the extra force, it's as simple as that. They are two different characters who practice different martial arts.

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#70  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@BMcKinnis said:

Okay... and when Panther did it he didn't need to aply the extra force, it's as simple as that. They are two different characters who practice different martial arts.

That's where you and me differ, because I don't think it's as simple as that. Especially when he points out that he's pinching a nerve point. It has nothing to do with their styles. It's just bad writing, as far as i'm concerned. And the only reason I brought that up, is because Black Panther is a genius. He carries gadgets, it would have made more sense if he simply had a weapon on hand that would drop Cage instantly, but instead I think a plot device was applied that doesn't make any sense. People cried PIS when Mister X was unable to use his telepathy against Iron Fist simply because Danny was using "Drunken Style" when that's not how Drunken style works at all. You would be unpredictable to someone who is not in your head, but it doesn't void out telepathy..yet for some reason when I raise a similar issue with something Black Panther did, people act like it's a problem.
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#71  Edited By Umbraa

Yo B, there is no use. We both know what Liss was doing. The move does not require "Hard" force, or more force, or super strength. It's simply a skill that's a soft martial art, a internal martial Art..where a tap is all that is required! It's seen all over wuxi a, Kill Bill, etc. Its simple as that. T'challa killing a fly is PIS too. Lol

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#72  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:

Yo B, there is no use. We both know what Liss was doing. The move does not require "Hard" force, or more force, or super strength. It's simply a skill that's a soft martial art, a internal martial Art..where a tap is all that is required! It's seen all over wuxi a, Kill Bill, etc. Its simple as that. 

The five point exploding palm technique that The Bride used on Bill wouldn't have worked on Cage. She didn't have to apply much force because unlike Cage, Bill doesn't have "steel like skin", he's a regular human.
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#73  Edited By Umbraa

Vance. You still don't get it do you? Smh. Did I say it was the same? That's you saying that. You. What T'challa can do is superior to that! It DOES bypass "steel like skin"... I mean was just giving you a example of from popular fiction, I never said it the same...I guess you don't watch many kung Fu flicks..because stuff like this is the MAIN WEAPON against masters using iron body, steal body, Invincible body styles...and T'challa move is like that, just better then the Bride! He's better. Again, you see to limit T'challa on the basis of what others can do, without accepting that he might be able to do something like this that's better. And that's the case here.

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#74  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:
Vance. You still don't get it do you? Smh. Did I say it was the same? That's you saying that. You. What T'challa can do is superior to that! It DOES bypass "steel like skin"... I mean was just giving you a example of from popular fiction, I never said it the same...I guess you don't watch many kung Fu flicks..because stuff like this is the MAIN WEAPON against masters using iron body, steal body, Invincible body styles...and T'challa move is like that, just better then the Bride! He's better. Again, you see to limit T'challa on the basis of what others can do, without accepting that he might be able to do something like this that's better. And that's the case here.
I don't get half the stuff you say to be perfectly honest. It was my understanding of your post that you were using Kill Bill as a comparable example. You've said several times now that the move that T'Challa did doesn't require "hard force", but of course most examples that can be used to refute that are concerning characters that are NOTHING like Cage. The amount of force would OBVIOUSLY be different depending on the flesh of the opponent. The Iron Body technique doesn't even begin to make an human anything like Cage. Earlier you were trying to convince me that Liss intended what T'Challa did to be a version of the Vulcan Nerve Pinch, do you have any idea how the technique even works? Or are you abandoning that now because you know it requires sufficient force to actually take the opponent down? 
 
I haven't limited T'Challa, what you're implying is a false accusation, almost as if I have something against T'Challa when in fact this actually has nothing to do with him. It has more to do with PIS situations. This could have been any character. Daredevil's fight with Cage in Cage Match was PIS too, this thread just happens to be about PIS fights and Black Panther.
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#75  Edited By Umbraa

But you continue to respond don't you? I don't understand you either, or the shoddy logic you continue to use. Others HAVE pointed out the same things, yet you still ignore it! And I haven't moved away from anything..all the others are wuxia inspired "dim mak" moves also, they work in different ways and they are not limited by they rules you are trying to place on them...and yeah they do have characters with iron or steel skin that can not be harmed by normal attacks. These common styles/skills are used to beat those characters, period. It doesn't matter if Cage is this or that, you will not respect that he has a move that can do This. It's that simple, you simply will not suspend your disbelief..he's "street" and he's not allowed to have a move that can do something like taking down a character that's clearly "out of his league and power range"..right? No matter if HIS skill and version does bypass steel skin! It does. There is nothing to refute why it can't! The guy has a style with magic mixed in! Another example, True Legend. That villain could not be harmed by regular attacks... And what happened between Cage and T'challa was not a "PIS situation"...smh. Cage wasn't even trying to fight! T'challa wasn't either. It looks like you have a something against him...not me. Yay for Marvel NOW and upgrade! No more of this PIS nonsense.

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#76  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:

But you continue to respond don't you? I don't understand you either, or the shoddy logic you continue to use. Others HAVE pointed out the same things, yet you still ignore it! And I haven't moved away from anything..all the others are wuxia inspired "dim mak" moves also, they work in different ways and they are not limited by they rules you are trying to place on them...and yeah they do have characters with iron or steel skin that can not be harmed by normal attacks. These common styles/skills are used to beat those characters, period. It doesn't matter if Cage is this or that, you will not respect that he has a move that can do This. It's that simple, you simply will not suspend your disbelief..he's "street" and he's not allowed to have a move that can do something like taking down a character that's clearly "out of his league and power range"..right? No matter if HIS skill and version does bypass steel skin! It does. There is nothing to refute why it can't! The guy has a style with magic mixed in! Another example, True Legend. That villain could not be harmed by regular attacks... And what happened between Cage and T'challa was not a "PIS situation"...smh. Cage wasn't even trying to fight! T'challa wasn't either. It looks like you have a something against him...not me. Yay for Marvel NOW and upgrade! No more of this PIS nonsense.

Yes, I give you an opportunity to better explain what you're saying. My logic isn't shoddy at all.  Just because the odds are against me in this argument doesn't mean the majority is correct.. All I am asking is for a valid explanation as to why Black Panther can use a nerve pinch against Luke Cage. The idea that it happened before doesn't necessarily mean that it's logical or good writing because there are several things that happen ALL THE TIME, that nobody accepts. The points that I am making is based on what i've seen in different situations in comics regarding these types of attacks. The idea that nerve attacks work in different ways doesn't explain how Black Panther was able to hurt Cage. I'm not placing rules on these types of attacks, I'm only analyzing this on the way I believe these attacks work. I can only go on what i've been exposed to. Based on what I know about nerves and pressure points, depending on what nerve is being attacked, the hardness of the opponents skin IS a factor.
 
You say you're not moving away from anything but after I asked you if you knew how a Vulcan nerve pinch works, you stopped trying to convince me that, that's what Liss was trying to show. I don't think you know. I've seen True Legend. I don't recall anyone using "Iron Body or Steel Skin", I recall the villain having Dark Armor sewn into his body and he was only partially invulnerable. I've seen Iron Body used in several different films and not once were nerve attacks used.
 
I never once in the thread said, that "T'Challa was street", if street level had anything to do with what I was saying, I would have never suggested that it would make more sense if Iron Fist or Spider-Man had done it, because they are both street level. I may not be able to prove that this instance is PIS because i'm not martial arts expert, but you and nobody else in this thread has given me a valid explanation of how the attack works either. So as far as I'm concerned, it's still PIS. You disagree, than PROVE me wrong. Pretending I have something against the character, and pretending i'm wrong because people disagree with me isn't proof.
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#77  Edited By Umbraa

First, there is no set way of how the Valcan Pinch works, just different theories. The explanation was already given! You are ignoring it... It's still just a form of dim mak. Period! THE FANS that interacted with Mr. Liss asked him about the mystical style from Doomwar! He said he would try to touch on some things. In the scene, T'challa acknowledges Cage durability, skin and so on..then used a skill that could bypass it. It's that simple. There is nothing "PIS", there is no reason to prove anything to a reasonable reader. I don't care about Spiderman. Why would he be able to do T'challa's MOVE? It's his..and there is no need to quantify it by what another character does or can do...either. Again, this has nothing to do with real martial arts! That's what people have been saying...it's a faux skill, that varies in use.

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#78  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:
First, there is no set way of how the Valcan Pinch works, just different theories. 
ALL of those theories support what I believe. 
 
@Umbraa said:
The explanation was already given! You are ignoring it... It's still just a form of dim mak. Period!  
That's not a valid explanation. That's why I'm ignoring it. No version of Dim Mak i've ever heard of or seen used would produce those results.
 
@Umbraa said:
 THE FANS that interacted with Mr. Liss asked him about the mystical style from Doomwar! He said he would try to touch on some things. In the scene, T'challa acknowledges Cage durability, skin and so on..then used a skill that could bypass it. 
He acknowledged his durability but then he said "every man has nerve points" then he hit Cage. So if he's striking a nerve point then, the hardness of Cage's skin WOULD be a factor. 
 
@Umbraa said:
 There is nothing "PIS", there is no reason to prove anything to a reasonable reader.
I'm not an irrational reader because I questioned something that was written in a comic. The massive amounts of PIS are evident and pointed out a regular basis by many people on these forums. It's still PIS unless you can prove what happened is valid.
 
@Umbraa said:
I don't care about Spiderman. Why would he be able to do T'challa's MOVE? It's his..and there is no need to quantify it by what another character does or can do...either. Again, this has nothing to do with real martial arts! That's what people have been saying...it's a faux skill, that varies in use.
I didn't ask you to care about Spider-Man. I was using him to illustrate the point that what I'm saying has nothing to do with Black Panther being street level. Nerve pinches, and other nerve attacks aren't faux-skills they work in real life and are used in real life. 
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#79  Edited By Umbraa

But it wasn't a factor. He doesn't have to explain how he does it. He did it and it worked. Period. This is a fictional world. Writers and editors...the professionals who are good enough to write at this level don't really care about the PIS nonsense. He used something that worked, after talking about Cage powers. You either respect T'challa..a genius would be able to use "push and transfer-qi" or not. So will just have to agree to disagree. But if you are wonder why Marvel is upgrading him..look at this thread.

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#80  Edited By Umbraa

Another thing, since when has Cage's nerve endings been invulnerable? He still feels stuff. So yeah, there was NOTHING PIS about the scene. His nerve points/endings are not invulnerable. His skin is unbreakable! And yes there are nerve strikes or pinches in real life...but not ones like he performed, which is strictly fictional. Maybe that's part of the issue...you are framing this by real life standards...I'm trying to get you to see that the fictional strikes pinches work differently, and are not limited by real life standards. like B.Mck said, it usually takes a tap in fiction. Oh well. It doesn't matter now. Next time he does it, no one will be able to say that.

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#81  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:
But it wasn't a factor. He doesn't have to explain how he does it. He did it and it worked. Period. 
If he doesn't explain it though, you can't fault me for calling it PIS. The fact that the Marvel Universe is fictional doesn't matter.
 
@Umbraa said:
 Writers and editors...the professionals who are good enough to write at this level don't really care about the PIS nonsense. 
That's the problem, and I'm not the only person who has ever raised issues with this. It's not that hard to write a comic book without disregarding how things work and how character powers are supposed to work. It almost defeats the purpose of writing comics. We constantly disregard how often character that are slower than others or weaker than others are shown to compete with no viable reason, but instances such as these shouldn't happen because they don't have to. 
 
@Umbraa said:
 You either respect T'challa..a genius would be able to use "push and transfer-qi" or not. So will just have to agree to disagree. 
Intellect has nothing to do with it. 
 
@Umbraa said:
But if you are wonder why Marvel is upgrading him..look at this thread.
If they are upgrading him, it has nothing to do with anything stated in this thread.
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#82  Edited By Umbraa

Yes he's IS getting a upgrade and it does have to do with some of the stuff stated this thread. Sorry. The PIS arguments were a big factor. A huge one that Marvel saw clearly with Mr. Liss and Rosemann (editor) run, they actually interacted with this stuff first hand. Again, Cage has never been said to be immune to not feeling. He does feel pain. We know this and his hard skin (or unbreakable skin as Marvel now calls it) does not stop that. The vital points ARE the weakest points on a Human's body...and Dim Mak strikes/pinch are just a exaggerated form/skill where rules do not work. Sure his intelligence matters...he knows weakness of friends and foes. He knows the human anatomy! He would not acknowledge Cage's powers, then do something like that if he didn't Know it was going to work. he used a move that would work..and There is no reason why it would not work. Cage's Nervous system, nerve endings and points are not invulnerable..other wise he would not feel pain, and he does...besides these spots being weakest spots on the body, physically and qi wise as well. Sure in a fight, one hit Cage would have killed T'challa... BUT Cage wasn't even trying to fight. The Namor right out if the water is PIS, but like I said..they don't view it like message board-forum posters do sometimes.

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#83  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:
Yes he's IS getting a upgrade and it does have to do with some of the stuff stated this thread. Sorry. The PIS arguments were a big factor. A huge one that Marvel saw clearly with Mr. Liss and Rosemann (editor) run, they actually interacted with this stuff first hand. 
Stuff that I stated? Because I don't think this upgrade has anything to do with anything I stated. If PIS arguments are a big factor then try hiring better writers to work on Black Panther instead of giving him an upgrade. The PIS isn't going to go away by making the character more powerful.  
 
@Umbraa said:
Again, Cage has never been said to be immune to not feeling. He does feel pain. 
Doesn't have anything to do with my argument. 
 
@Umbraa said:
The vital points ARE the weakest points on a Human's body...and Dim Mak strikes/pinch are just a exaggerated form/skill where rules do not work. 
Everyone knows vital points are the weakest points on the human body, but Cage isn't a regular human. His flesh is alot harder. Dim Mak and no other form of combat that involved, striking or attacking nerves disregards the rules.
 
@Umbraa said:
he knows weakness of friends and foes. He knows the human anatomy! He would not acknowledge Cage's powers, then do something like that if he didn't Know it was going to work. 
The problem isn't whether T'Challa knows how the technique works, it's whether Liss..whom is controlling him knows how it works. Black Panther isn't real. Obviously he wouldn't do it, if it doesn't work..but it's WRITING that makes it work. 
 
@Umbraa said:
Cage's Nervous system, nerve endings and points are not invulnerable..
Never suggested otherwise.  
 
@Umbraa said:
 Sure in a fight, one hit Cage would have killed T'challa... BUT Cage wasn't even trying to fight.  
Cage not trying to fight doesn't have anything to do with what happened. 
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#84  Edited By Umbraa

I disgree. It's the unreasonable readers, saying eveything is "PIS" then claiming you need better writers, with pretty much anything he does.. which is stupid! The point of the OP's thread...he sees it, i see it, others have seen it and Marvel sees it... You mean EVERY freaking writer is not good enough? And sure it goes away. Now the "PIS" ers will have a lot harder time whining about! Next, you clearly don't understand "Dim Mak" a qi move...it's laughable that you are claiming that Liss doesn't understand it, when he does and you don't. You keep talking about the hardness of skin AND THAT DOES NOT MATTER WITH THIS DIM MAK SKILL. T'challa is not a regular human either. He's not. Again, what you just said does not make sense Vance. You are the one that does not get that it does not work that way, not Liss. His skin would not protect against a attack like that. It wasn't a physical attack using force! SO WHY would his skin matter? What's so hard to understand...and like I said Cage nerve endings and points are NOT invulnerable. He feels...you say you never suggested it...yet you are arguing why it not would work. The hardness of his skin simply would not stop a attack like this. You say that No Form or combat will? Wow, really, no form or skill at all? In a fiction universe?... see that's what i meant about unreasonable. how can you make such a statement? Again, He he can feel things, when he gets hit he comments on it hurting at times...so then he would also be affected by dim Mak move, which does not require any HARD FORCE... touch and transfer energy. Look at the scan and you see it. Why is this so hard to accept? I mean Liss could have used the the full blown mystical style from Doomwar...he just choose to make it wuxia like, and that is perfectly valid. Thats how it works...hardness of skin would not matter with something fictional like the move he did.

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#85  Edited By KnightRise

@Skaddix said:

@JSH92 said:

Black Panther vs Silver Surfer. BP got him in a hold that is "impossible to escape from." It was basically a cross-face chicken wing, what a load of PIBS.

Really chicken jokes?

Really, jump to racism accusation?

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#86  Edited By Mykhael

Already been addressed

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#87  Edited By Mykhael

@Static Shock: I was thinking about the Namor Panther thing again, and I don't see how Namor having superhuman strength should prevent Panther from knocking him back. Again, especially if Namor was jumping.

Besides, cap has beaten Namor before, and if Cap has BEATEN him, PAnthe could at least knock him down.

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#88  Edited By Static Shock

@Mykhael: Namor wasn't jumping. He was flying. Within the same issue, he was soaking wet during a meeting with Magneto, Doom, and T'Challa. The fight took place that same night within the same issue. After having been drenched in water, the way that battle went down shouldn't have happened that way.

Captain America defeated a Namor clone, which wasn't even as powerful as the original. He had two fights against the original Namor. In the first, he 'defeated' him by destroying a device on his neck that was controlling him, and in the other, he was completely dominated by Namor. I don't recall Captain America legitimately defeating Namor.

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#89  Edited By Mykhael

@Static Shock: So I went back to look at the issue and here are things I want to point out.

There was a significant time difference between the meeting with Doom, Magneto and Namor. Enough time in fact for Ross to make it from that meeting to Lemuria.

When we see Namor next he is flying downward towards the store T'Chall is in and then goes underground and comes up and he's dry. It isnt clear exactly how much time has passed BUT we do know that a good deal of time must have passed.

Namor could've been jumping or flying it isn't clear, I think he's leaping but it could very well be a flight.

But all of that is neither here nor there. What matters is whether or not it's reasonable for T'Challa to be able to knock Namor out the air into a wall.

I think it is but lets look at the evidence, T'Challa with the heart shaped herb has taken down a rhino and he's probably on par with a geneticly enhanced killmonger who's taken down an elephant. If T'Challa can take down a 7000Ib Rhino and KillMonger can take down a 20,000 pound elephant I doubt it would be difficult for T'Challa with a heart shaped herb and a vibrainum suit to catch a 260 pound (flying or jumpin) Namor by suprise and punch him into the wall.

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#90  Edited By Umbraa

Static has a point. But this is why they made this move. He should be able to fight different monarchs just like that! Now he can...Super Human physical prowess + super genius intellect + master fighter + the total knowledge of his ancestors (see Dune Leto II) + super senses...and posdible immortality (Defenders) ....he's a power house. And that's not everything...but it brings him in line with Namor, Doom and Black Bolt. Next time he fights him, this will not matter much. Parse Namors words from the AvX 8.

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#91  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:
I disgree. It's the unreasonable readers, saying eveything is "PIS" then claiming you need better writers, with pretty much anything he does.. which is stupid! The point of the OP's thread...he sees it, i see it, others have seen it and Marvel sees it... You mean EVERY freaking writer is not good enough? And sure it goes away. Now the "PIS" ers will have a lot harder time whining about!
I don't think Marvel cares about PIS, I really don't. If they did they would tell their writers to stop doing it but every wednesday or thursday when I go and pick up my books there's PIS and half the books. Black Panther's book DOES need better writers. That has nothing to do with PIS, I just haven't read anything yet that was good as Priest's run and that was quite some time ago. 
 
 
@Umbraa said:
I disgree. It's the unreasonable readers, saying eveything is "PIS" then claiming you need better writers, with pretty much anything he does.. which is stupid! The point of the OP's thread...he sees it, i see it, others have seen it and Marvel sees it... You mean EVERY freaking writer is not good enough? And sure it goes away. Now the "PIS" ers will have a lot harder time whining about! Next, you clearly don't understand "Dim Mak" a qi move...it's laughable that you are claiming that Liss doesn't understand it, when he does and you don't. You keep talking about the hardness of skin AND THAT DOES NOT MATTER WITH THIS DIM MAK SKILL. T'challa is not a regular human either. He's not. Again, what you just said does not make sense Vance. You are the one that does not get that it does not work that way, not Liss. His skin would not protect against a attack like that. It wasn't a physical attack using force! SO WHY would his skin matter? What's so hard to understand...and like I said Cage nerve endings and points are NOT invulnerable. 
 We've gone over this several times. I still don't agree with you. I'm not going to keep breaking down the same stuff. It's pointless. 
 
@Umbraa said:
Again, He he can feel things, when he gets hit he comments on it hurting at times...
This has nothing to do with anything i've stated. I never said the opposite of this.
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#92  Edited By Static Shock

@Mykhael said:

Namor could've been jumping or flying it isn't clear, I think he's leaping but it could very well be a flight.

Based on how Namor is positioned, it's flight. He is positioned so that his body is parallel to the ground, with his arms out in front of him, pointing in the direction he's flying. That's a common position for flight in comics.

No Caption Provided

@Mykhael said:

I think it is but lets look at the evidence, T'Challa with the heart shaped herb has taken down a rhino and he's probably on par with a geneticly enhanced killmonger who's taken down an elephant. If T'Challa can take down a 7000Ib Rhino and KillMonger can take down a 20,000 pound elephant I doubt it would be difficult for T'Challa with a heart shaped herb and a vibrainum suit to catch a 260 pound (flying or jumpin) Namor by suprise and punch him into the wall.

That's a pretty bad comparison, and I'm not sure what Killmonger has to do with this, either.

Weight isn't a significant issue by itself, to be honest. At the same time, that rhino and that elephant don't have the physical capabilities that Namor possesses. Think about Namor, who weighs 260 pounds (118 kg), possesses superhuman durability and strength (Class 100 at the most; there may have been a time difference from when he was wet to the beginning of the fight, but not enough to significantly diminish his strength), and is flying (his top speed is supposed to be 40 miles an hour, based on the Handbook, but comic book showings may suggest otherwise). Remember, Namor wasn't wet when he fought Sentry, and he was able to hold his own for a little while.

Force equals mass times acceleration (with the added benefit of superhuman durability and strength). 4,720 newtons. T'Challa would have broken his arm, at least.

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#93  Edited By Umbraa

@Vance, I'm right. Yes they do care. Not always, but when it's called out and hinders story telling. Yes. The attacks...attacked that Mcduffie and Liss got was embarrassing. And you can have your opinion. It's clear Marvel, the doesn't agree. You lose.

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#94  Edited By Mykhael

But it's not a bad comparison my friend. Even if Namor was charging in flight (but I remain unconvinced) at 40 miles an hour his physical strength is rendered moot, it might as well not exist he is still bound by the laws of physics. He still weighs 260 pounds Killmonger comes in because he and T'Challa are relatively even when it comes to physical strength and Killmonger (without a vibrainium suit) took down a charging (and grounded) elephant that has a max speed of 24-25 miles hour and weighs over 20,000 pounds. T'Challa taking down a charging Rhino which can have a speed up to 30-45 miles an hour, equal to Namor. So if T'Challa can take down a Rhino and Elephant, he can knoc down Namor.

So using your calculations 4,720N=1,062 Ibf, So Namor was (given that he was moving at his top speed which he couldn't have been) moving with 1062 ib of force.

The vibrainium suit didn't just shut off, it COULD'VE worked to zapp momentum from Namors blind dive. If it didn't it could've definitly protected him and The vibrainium doesnt need to repeal, the force of T'Challa's punch did that all on it's own.

Here are some things we don't know, so we can't say this is impossible or PIS

1. But we don't truely know, exactly how fast Namor was moving, flight or leap (because people have been known leap with hands extended before), and it couldn't have been too fast because of the short distance.

2. We also don't know the power and impact of T'Challa's punch force. A study of seven Olympic boxers in weight classes ranging from flyweight to super heavyweight showed a range of 447 to 1,066 pounds of peak punching force. Energy transferred from punch to target varied depending on how heavy the boxers' hands and gloves were, how fast they punched, and how they held their wrists. A study of 70 boxers found elite-level fighters could punch with an average of 776 pounds of force. Another study of 23 boxers showed elite fighters were able to punch more than twice as hard as amatures, the hardest hitter generating almost 1,300 pounds of force.

But here is what we do know

1. BP would be stronger than any boxer on that list punching with at least double the force, enough to stop Namor and maybe enough to send flying into the wall.

2. BP has taken down animals and people with Namor's weight and speed.

3. T'Challa's vibrainium suit zaps moementum

So I ask you if a 300 pound Job schmo was launched in the air at BP at 30-40 miles and hour would BP be able to punch him down? How would his phyiscal strength matter if he was airborne?

If you could tell me how Namor's Superhuman strength and durability have any bearing on a his possible flight I'll concede the argument to you my friend.

But I will say that T'Challa breaking his arm is reasonable depending on how durable Namor's skin is (but the vibrainium suit is protection), but he still could've mustered enough force to knock Namor down.

All I'm saying is this is possible, even if you consider it unlikely, as such shouldn't qualify as "PIS"

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#95  Edited By Mykhael

You know what is PIS...vibrainium.

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#96  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Umbraa said:

@Vance, I'm right. Yes they do care. Not always, but when it's called out and hinders story telling. Yes. The attacks...attacked that Mcduffie and Liss got was embarrassing. And you can have your opinion. It's clear Marvel, the doesn't agree. You lose.

You're wrong. Until Marvel actually does something about the PIS, I don't believe you. Black Panther's recent upgrade isn't proof that Marvel is actively trying to remove PIS from books that he appears in. You know what hinders storytelling? Garbage ass writers, like Liss. If Marvel disagrees with me, they'd prove me wrong with actions. The PIS is still there and it's not going anywhere. Stop pretending you're a Marvel insider, you don't have a clue.
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#97  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Mykhael said:

You know what is PIS...vibrainium.

No, it isn't...
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#98  Edited By Mykhael

That was kind of joke, because the entire idea PIS is stupid and over used. But that's just me, who believes that the much of the fanbase and fanboys in general believe they know everything better than the creators (sometimes they do) and don't know how to enjoy comics now a days.

While things in comics do often need to be logicly explained in order to work best, there are too many outside varibles that we can't possibly know that prevents anyone from adaquately judging what is possible in an art form full of fantasy. PIS is just one more way fans and fanboys can say "hey, look at me, I'm the professional critic and I don't like what you did because it can't happen that way" (I am also guilty of this )and in most cases the artist probably thinks "well Tough because it just did dip sh*t".

I'm not bashing anyone here, you guys are fun and make sound arguements, lord knows I don't get tired of seeing Vance and Umbraa go back and forth, but PIS, valid or not continues to be fan created bitchery, to me anyway. :)

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#99  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Mykhael said:

That was kind of joke, because the entire idea PIS is stupid and over used. But that's just me, who believes that the much of the fanbase and fanboys in general believe they know everything better than the creators (sometimes they do) and don't know how to enjoy comics now a days.

While things in comics do often need to be logicly explained in order to work best, there are too many outside varibles that we can't possibly know that prevents anyone from adaquately judging what is possible in an art form full of fantasy. PIS is just one more way fans and fanboys can say "hey, look at me, I'm the professional critic and I don't like what you did because it can't happen that way" (I am also guilty of this )and in most cases the artist probably thinks "well Tough because it just did dip sh*t".

I'm not bashing anyone here, you guys are fun and make sound arguements, lord knows I don't get tired of seeing Vance and Umbraa go back and forth, but PIS, valid or not continues to be fan created bitchery, to me anyway. :)

I don't see why the idea of PIS is stupid. Everybody who reads comics doesn't go on comic related forums and as far as I know that's the only place it's used. It's my understanding that the term came from battle forums, where the use of the term is necessary because people try and use feats they have no business using. So in an instance where the validity of an scan or an occurrence from comics is in question, PIS is definitely necessary.
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#100  Edited By Umbraa

@Vance, here is the thing. I clearly said it was *part* of it, because it was. I have talked to Liss, Maberry and others about this. I have wrote Marvel for a long time about this, breaking it down and citing evidence. Just because you don't think so doesn't make it so. Marvel does listen to fans if they have and can make a sound argument. Example, the Marriage between Storm and T'challa. Brevoort has even said as much recently. Spider-Girl fans also proved it. So stop being dismissive about something you are clearly not aware or privy to make such statements. Again, it's pretty embarrassing that every review thread/review devolves into mindless accusations of "PIS", "He's Street level", he can't do that rather then the story.. etc...from Priest and Mcduffie who both got hate mail, to Hudlin being trashed because he had BP, one shot Karnak, even though Kirby also did it, Jason Aarons SI being blamed on Hudlin and dismissed, to Liss run were they finally saw it was a part of a bif issue. Hickman's interview saying we missed the boat was talking partly about that...Along with the other monarchs (Doom,Black Bolt, Namor, Thor) all being power houses...except the black monarch T'challa and Nation heroes like Captain Britain going from peak human to 90 to class...and T'challa getting priest tech being a issue with fans that causes hate mail...they decided to finally do it. Remember Maberry was going to as well. I asked him personally to do it, he agreed and saw the same things and noted it also in interviews. Priest noted it as well. I don't think Liss is garbage at all. So opinions differ..and it wasn't based just on Liss BUT EVERY FRAKING PANTHER WRITER. Again, this was just one aspect of it, not the total sum. They are aware of certain attitudes. This is pushing against the total sum of those views.

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