Do people hate Black Panther?

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#151 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3080 posts) - - Show Bio

@telepathic666 said:

I hate the people who write for his character that's all i gotta say.

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#152 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Twentyfive said:

@Vance Astro: You have gone to lengths to prove to everyone here that you are a Panther fan.

Is this sarcasm?  I haven't said anything negative about the character. Everything I have said about Black Panther are things that I believe to be detrimental to his success. Aside from this ridiculous "street level" argument.
 
@Twentyfive said:

But in all seriousness, I do believe that he is missing something. But to go out and say that he isn't interesting does not seem like a thing that a fan would say. 

Who said Black Panther wasn't interesting? 
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#153 Posted by Twentyfive (3057 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Umbraa said:

the best thing about Liss run, is that the "street" crap is dead! I know for a fact that Liss and Rosemann saw the complaints. And then Hickman suddenly is dealing with him. twenty, Liss also said the same...he needs to be connected to the wider meta plot. Look at AvX now he suddenly stepping up each issue? Maybe they finally get the picture? Maybe not.

Black Panther had a huge marriage arc with Storm, tie-ins to Civil War,Initiative,House of M,DoomWar,and Secret Invasion and his book was still lacking in sales.He needs more than that to generate interest.

Darn. I was looking, you know. Ready to give up; Ready to apologize. Then I found this post! Thank you Vance.

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#154 Posted by Twentyfive (3057 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro: But i have to give it to you, you do try to defend him. But I do not like how at the same time, you are putting him down, and making it seem to others like he is in fact NOT an interesting character.

You can see how that annoys people.

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#155 Posted by sesquipedalophobe (5417 posts) - - Show Bio
@Twentyfive: It's called critiquing.
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#156 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Twentyfive said:

Darn. I was looking, you know. Ready to give up; Ready to apologize. Then I found this post! Thank you Vance.

I wasn't putting Black Panther down. I was putting his writers and the company the publishes his books down. Everything i've said is more about Marvel's failures. Not Black Panther's. 
 
@Twentyfive said:

@Vance Astro: But i have to give it to you, you do try to defend him. But I do not like how at the same time, you are putting him down, and making it seem to others like he is in fact NOT an interesting character.

You can see how that annoys people.

Maybe you are misinterpreting my words or my stance on the character. I don't see how anything I say can be annoying. You don't have to read any of it. If anyone thinks I don't like Black Panther, that's on them. I can't be responsible for other people's reading comprehension issues.
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#157 Posted by Twentyfive (3057 posts) - - Show Bio

@sesquipedalophobe: The same argument could be applied to Batman. His entire Rogues gallery consists of nothing but street level thugs, and hood rats (lol I just wanted to say that). Panther is capable of the same thing Batman is, and hangs out with the same tier of heroes that Batman does. Just because "he's Batman" doesn't mean squat to me. However, nobody else even thinks of him as street because of that same reason. Because he's Batman. The logic of people sometimes appalls me.

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#158 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Twentyfive said:

@sesquipedalophobe: The same argument could be applied to Batman. His entire Rogues gallery consists of nothing but street level thugs, and hood rats (lol I just wanted to say that). Panther is capable of the same thing Batman is, and hangs out with the same tier of heroes that Batman does. Just because "he's Batman" doesn't mean squat to me. However, nobody else even thinks of him as street because of that same reason. Because he's Batman. The logic of people sometimes appalls me.

WTF are you talking about? Batman is a street leveler. Everyone knows that. Being a street leveler isn't a bad thing..it's simply a fact. Street level is a term created by comic fans any way so I don't know why people get all worked up over the classification like it's in the dictionary or it's comic law.
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#159 Posted by Twentyfive (3057 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro: Hey man. Foul! No need to make it personal. I'm out of this conversation.

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#160 Edited by sesquipedalophobe (5417 posts) - - Show Bio
@Twentyfive: It's funny you bring up Batman, because writers use him to toy with readers. He does nothing an ordinary man wouldn't do in the face of death and he comes out on top (via plot device). Give Black Panther the same exposure and he'll likely do the same. To ensure his success, his mutie wife has to die a gruesome death. This is the first step toward writing freedom.
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#161 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Twentyfive said:

No need to make it personal. 

The irony is killing me.
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#162 Posted by TheDude123 (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's safe to say that some people do. He is not written well most of the time and the level of talent of the artists they use is often times sketchy(double entendre and a pun, hat-trick, Bazingoooo!!)

Here are some of the reasons I think some do, in no particular order (some who don't like him likely have a combination of the reasons below):

-Anger/resentment/what-have you from battle forum fights.

-disliking someone who is a fan of BP

-Bad art

-His color

-His ethnicity

-His nationality

-poor writing (not in all stories, just some)

-Him replacing daredevil in "the man Without Fear"

-His intellect

Caveat:There are, I am certain, other reasons but I listed the ones I felt were sort of unreasonable (with the exceptions of writing and art).

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#163 Edited by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

Vance I already proved you WRONG, he doesn't handle street level threats. Lol, he can handle any threat. Why are you ignoring this? Black Dragon was also created for Panther and he's not "Street" he doesn't fit into your box...and like I said Hickman doesn't agree with you..meaning you are wrong. You are pointing out a group of Villains that are all dead, and mosty have not appeared in later volumes. As Hickman said, they are only really considering the modern take. And why does it matter if he wrote BP book? He is handling the character RIGHT NOW ANF MOVING FOWARD! again T'challa is a F4 character who became a Avenger two years after...he handles all sort of stuff, not limited to "street" and Klaw isn't street level...stop it. Hudlin doesn't agree either, Maberry either, Liss either ( why they had to strip him)...

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#164 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

Vance I already proved you WRONG, 

Never happened. 
 
@Umbraa said:

 he doesn't handle street level threats. Lol, 

Yes he does.  
 
@Umbraa said:

Black Dragon was also created for Panther and he's not "Street" he doesn't fit into your box...and like 

No he wasn't. Chiantang was created for Iron Fist. 
 
@Umbraa said:

and like I said Hickman doesn't agree with you..meaning you are wrong

No, it doesn't mean that I am wrong. If writers can disagree amongst each other about character details then I can disagree with Hickman. He didn't create Black Panther and he has yet to write a solo series. What he thinks is of no relevance to this thread. I don't need to be a writer myself to have a difference of opinion with what writers project as their take on a character because people do it on this forum all the time. That's how we know what bad writing and PIS is.
 
@Umbraa said:

You are pointing out a group of Villains that are all dead, and mosty have not appeared in later volumes. 

Irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, if not for Black Panther's book..those characters would not exist. Their sole purpose was to rival Black Panther and they are street level threats. 
 
@Umbraa said:

he handles all sort of stuff, not limited to "street" 

So does Daredevil,Wolverine,Spider-Man,Moon Knight,Batman,Shang Chi,Iron Fist etc. They are still street levelers. Like I said, the problem with Black Panther is he doesn't any longer have his own set of villains so it's hard to place him but judging by the characters that were created to be his villains, he's street level.It doesn't matter that they are dead. They existed for one purpose. Killmonger and Klaw are his longest running villains. They are street level threats. 
 
@Umbraa said:

and Klaw isn't street level...stop it.

Right, he just loses to street level heroes all the time and easily beaten by characters outside of that.
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#165 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

Vance make sense he has he can handle ANY milieu. I already proved you WRONG there. Doom [who he has taken on many times], Ironman, Black Dragon, Klaw, Mephisto, Cosmic Zombie Skrulls, Super Skrulls, Nightmare, etc...he first fought Doom in 1968! And has faced him a couple of times since then. I disagree, it doesn't mater if he has written a solo. Hudlin nor Priest, or Maberry runs were Street! They also disagree with you guy! And Hickmsn is handling him, so he is very valid. Sorry! He doesn't have a rogues Gallery, but that doesn't make him street...and Klaw isn't street buddy..stop it. Any character who can fist fight the Vision in Density mode and win..isn't street..kind of messes up your argument and supports mine! He doesn't fit into any box!

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#166 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

I already proved you WRONG there.

If you already proved me wrong. Why do you keep responding?  
 
@Umbraa said:

 I already proved you WRONG there. Doom [who he has taken on many times], Ironman, Black Dragon, Klaw, Mephisto, Cosmic Zombie Skrulls, Super Skrulls, Nightmare, etc...he first fought Doom in 1968! 

Yet, almost none of these characters are his villains. What are the odds? You still have no answer for why nearly ever villain created for Black Panther is only a street level threat. Black Panther can only beat the characters you named (accept the Klaw whom is only a street level threat) with prep time. In a random encounter these characters would destroy Black Panther easily. He's under their caliber. Prep time isn't an ability, it's a plot device. Reed Richards is smart enough to create something to defeat just about any character but as shown with Spider-Man, if he gets caught out there with just his power and nothing else..he can and will get owned.
 
@Umbraa said:

 I disagree, it doesn't mater if he has written a solo. Hudlin nor Priest, or Maberry runs were Street! 

It does matter, because you keep saying how he disagrees with me but we are following the same thing. He's giving his opinion of the character just like I am and we were exposed to the same material. Hudlin's,Mayberry and Priests run were a mash-up different types of threats but essentially he's still a street level character.The level he performs at without prep, isn't Iron Man,Thor,Hulk,Ms.Marvel etc. level. Black Panther isn't written like other characters, almost every single character regardless of their powers has a set of villains. Priest,Hudlin and Mayberry contributed none.
 
@Umbraa said:

 Any character who can fist fight the Vision in Density mode and win..isn't street..kind of messes up your argument and supports mine! He doesn't fit into any box!

This has nothing to do with my argument nor does it refute it. This would be like me saying anyone who can catch a punch from a class 100 or crash the Shield Helicarrier with a punch isn't street level. Shang Chi and Iron Fist did those things and they are still street level.So I don't know why you think this statement messes up my argument or supports yours. 
 
@Umbraa said:
and Klaw isn't street buddy..stop it. 
To figure out if a villain is street or not you have to wonder if a team or a powerful hero is needed to take him down. The answer is no. Any team of Avengers would walk all over the Klaw,The F4,Heroes for Hire,Defenders,etc. would have no trouble taking him down. A single street level hero could take him without prep time, therefore he's not above street level no matter how much you deny it. 
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#167 Posted by daredevil21134 (15939 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Twentyfive said:

@sesquipedalophobe: The same argument could be applied to Batman. His entire Rogues gallery consists of nothing but street level thugs, and hood rats (lol I just wanted to say that). Panther is capable of the same thing Batman is, and hangs out with the same tier of heroes that Batman does. Just because "he's Batman" doesn't mean squat to me. However, nobody else even thinks of him as street because of that same reason. Because he's Batman. The logic of people sometimes appalls me.

WTF are you talking about? Batman is a street leveler. Everyone knows that. Being a street leveler isn't a bad thing..it's simply a fact. Street level is a term created by comic fans any way so I don't know why people get all worked up over the classification like it's in the dictionary or it's comic law.

lol

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#168 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

Vance, Marvel is a shared universe. So that doesn't matter at all. BP is always prepped! That's the point. When he beat Stark didn't have a grand plan, he beat him still, with windex. So your opinion there is sort of Flawed. He's not under anything, caliber or otherwis. And you have yet to back anything up with a fact! Again, Klaw isn't street, he's immortal and living sound. He doesn't eat, breath, sleep and there are only certain ways to beat him. He's not street. And yes a team has been needed to take him down. It has occurred. The reverse has occurred also. I'm sorry but your fan boy rules are not used by writers...they only consider the story, not these still terms and rules. So a single person or team could take down anyone..if a writer choose to write that story! Stark also uses prep and T'challa carries highly advanced tech on his person, including a power armor and tech that kills other tech. You are wrong buddy. That's not street...energy daggers are not street...start trek ships [n'yami battle cruiers] at his command are not street. He also faced Namor on land just fine..the Hulk just fine...it you want to fit him as being less..and I will laugh ever issue of Marvel Now with him doing things beyond your box...you will say PIS....but it's not...

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#169 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

 BP is always prepped! 

No, he's not. He has a set regular equipment like every other character.
 
@Umbraa said:

When he beat Stark didn't have a grand plan, he beat him still, with windex. So your opinion there is sort of Flawed. 

My opinion isn't flawed. Without plot devices,terrible writing or prep time..Black Panther is completely incapable of beating Iron Man.That's not my opinion. Everyone knows this. 
 
@Umbraa said:

. And you have yet to back anything up with a fact! 

Everything I say is backed up by facts. 
 
@Umbraa said:

 Again, Klaw isn't street, he's immortal and living sound. He doesn't eat, breath, sleep and there are only certain ways to beat him. 

None of the things you are saying refutes his street level status. So you can say he's not every time you respond. It doesn't change anything. 
 
@Umbraa said:

 And yes a team has been needed to take him down. It has occurred. 

A team being USED to take him down and a team being NEEDED to take him down is two different things.  
 
@Umbraa said:

I'm sorry but your fan boy rules are not used by writers..

Yes, they are. 
 

@Umbraa said:

Stark also uses prep and T'challa carries highly advanced tech on his person, including a power armor and tech that kills other tech. 

I know Stark uses prep. It has nothing to do with my point. Stark can fight pretty much any one of his own villains without changing armor or creating a new weapon. For Black Panther to fight Iron Man or his villains he would NEED prep. Nothing Black Panther carries regularly is comparable to Stark's armor. 
 
@Umbraa said:

That's not street...energy daggers are not street...

Yes, they are. 
 
@Umbraa said:

start trek ships [n'yami battle cruiers] at his command are not street. 

They are also irrelevant to the conversation. 
 
@Umbraa said:

He also faced Namor on land just fine..the Hulk just fine...

So did Daredevil and Spider-Man.Without tech and they are both street level. However in order for Black Panther to beat either one of them in a fight without bad writing he would need prep. He can't do it under his own power. 
 
@Umbraa said:

and I will laugh every issue of Marvel Now with him doing things beyond your box...you will say PIS....but it's not...

I don't call PIS when something isn't. I know what PIS is.
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#170 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

Your logic here is extremely shoddy! So basically most of Ironman foes are "street", since they don't require or NEED a team to take them down! T'challa could easily take on Ironmonger, Titanium Man, Crimson Dynamo, etc with his standard gear! you keep ignoring that his tech is also advanced..and nothing you are saying is backed up by facts...this is a fact...he can and HAS operated in every milieu and his two biggest and modern runs were not "street", they had him in some "street" situations, but also in others that included Cosmic, mystical and Global...that's a fact!

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#171 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:
Your logic here is extremely shoddy! So basically most of Ironman foes are "street", since they don't require or NEED a team to take them down! T'challa could easily take on Ironmonger, Titanium Man, Crimson Dynamo, etc with his standard gear! you keep ignoring that his tech is also advanced..and nothing you are saying is backed up by facts...this is a fact...he can and HAS operated in every milieu and his two biggest and modern runs were not "street", they had him in some "street" situations, but also in others that included Cosmic, mystical and Global...that's a fact!
I started to break down another one of your posts and then I realized I don't care anymore. I'm done with this. I'm tired of responding to the same stuff over and over. You're obviously not going to agree with me, so there's no point to keep doing this.
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#172 Posted by daredevil21134 (15939 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Umbraa said:
Your logic here is extremely shoddy! So basically most of Ironman foes are "street", since they don't require or NEED a team to take them down! T'challa could easily take on Ironmonger, Titanium Man, Crimson Dynamo, etc with his standard gear! you keep ignoring that his tech is also advanced..and nothing you are saying is backed up by facts...this is a fact...he can and HAS operated in every milieu and his two biggest and modern runs were not "street", they had him in some "street" situations, but also in others that included Cosmic, mystical and Global...that's a fact!
I started to break down another one of your posts and then I realized I don't care anymore. I'm done with this. I'm tired of responding to the same stuff over and over. You're obviously not going to agree with me, so there's no point to keep doing this.

But your debates were so entertaining lol

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#173 Posted by Mykhael (71 posts) - - Show Bio

Most of BP's villans are a threat to Wakanda, possibly the most techonologically adanced nation in the Marvel world. These eneimes arent people that robbing banks( which Supes and Batman spend a good amount of time stopping), these arent people that just committ minor crimes.

BP's eneimes all want more and more is Wakanda, which makes them more than street level, they are a threat to a nation and because that nation's status they are

an indirect threat to the world.

Achebe was after Wakanda, backed by Mephisto and rogue elements of the CIA=not street level

KillMonger was after Wakanada=not street level

White Wolf= you could make that argument but it's more complex than that

level Man-Ape-minor threat to Wakanda

Again, I'll say this, having a mix of street level foes and major enemies while being a king doesn't hurt the character.

When comic readers often say they can't relate to BP and that he's not a good character but then in the very next sentence say "Luke Cage is better"

That's an unconscious racial bias issue there. It's partially a race issue because they draw an immediate comparison to a relatively unrelated BLACK character as if that ONE is acceptable because he's normal. No one draws a comparison to another king, no one makes the arguement that BP fights street level villans, people other issues with the character least of which seem to be the level of his villians.

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#174 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mykhael said:

Most of BP's villans are a threat to Wakanda, possibly the most techonologically adanced nation in the Marvel world. These eneimes arent people that robbing banks( which Supes and Batman spend a good amount of time stopping), these arent people that just committ minor crimes.

Batman and Superman don't spend a good amount of time stopping bank robberies, where are you getting that? 
 
@Mykhael said:

BP's eneimes all want more and more is Wakanda, which makes them more than street level, they are a threat to a nation and because that nation's status they are

an indirect threat to the world.

Achebe was after Wakanda, backed by Mephisto and rogue elements of the CIA=not street level

KillMonger was after Wakanada=not street level

White Wolf= you could make that argument but it's more complex than that

level Man-Ape-minor threat to Wakanda

I'm not getting into this street leveler argument again.  
 
@Mykhael said:

When comic readers often say they can't relate to BP and that he's not a good character but then in the very next sentence say "Luke Cage is better"

I have never heard anyone make this comparison. I do; however, acknowledge that Luke Cage is more relatable but I don't think comparisons like this is why Black Panther isn't selling because if Cage had a book, that would struggle to sell as well.  
 
@Mykhael said:

That's an unconscious racial bias issue there. It's partially a race issue because they draw an immediate comparison to a relatively unrelated BLACK character as if that ONE is acceptable because he's normal. No one draws a comparison to another king, no one makes the arguement that BP fights street level villans, people other issues with the character least of which seem to be the level of his villians.

I don't believe people don't read Black Panther because they can relate to other black heroes more. Black heroes don't sell in general so it's not an issue of preference. The point I was raising about Black Panther being a street leveler and being the King of Wakanda  and it being detrimental to the character is, they pose a challenge to writers that they don't have to deal with when it comes to other characters. I think the issue with why people don't read is more a lack of exposure and a lack of importance to Marvel as a company,Race plays a role in why he has trouble selling, but there are various reasons why Black characters have trouble making it into that A-list.
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#175 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3080 posts) - - Show Bio

i do wish black heroes would be better received from marvel. its a shame when DC is doing better with there black characters, than marvel is.

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#176 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mega_spidey01 said:

 its a shame when DC is doing better with there black characters, than marvel is.

What makes you think that?
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#177 Posted by daredevil21134 (15939 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mega_spidey01 said:

i do wish black heroes would be better received from marvel. its a shame when DC is doing better with there black characters, than marvel is.

I'm not sure about that bro.

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#178 Posted by flexhectic (14 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate watered down and neutered Black Panther that lives in his kid sister's shadow. But fully functional and operational Black Panther is that dude! Hi Umbra!

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#179 Posted by WARLOCK2792 (18072 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Mega_spidey01 said:

its a shame when DC is doing better with there black characters, than marvel is.

What makes you think that?

Cyborg? Hell, I don't know

@flexhectic said:

I hate watered down and neutered Black Panther that lives in his kid sister's shadow. But fully functional and operational Black Panther is that dude! Hi Umbra!

I don't view it as him living in his kid sister's shadow. I feel his new role is actually RIDICULOUSLY convenient, and flexible. I feel that his ego is effing up what could be a beautiful situation.

Shuri is a BEAST, and she SHOULD be the one to run things in Wakanda

Storm and Black Panther could easily take care of other relationships (including their own) while Shuri is in charge, but instead, T'Challa chose to whine..............I still think he's a great character, I just don't like the over abundance of arrogance.

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#180 Posted by RatFace (29 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Night Thrasher said:

@Vance Astro: That's kinda what I'm saying. If it were announced today that Grant Morrison was going to be writing Black Panther with Chris Bachalo penciling, then I can almost guarantee that the 1st issue is going to sell in the top 10, have about 10 variant covers, and at least 2 reprints. The thing about it is that around issue 6 Grant's going to leave and Chris would've probably been gone for about 2 issues. When they replace them, Panther's core fan base isn't strong enough to endure a mediocre to bad creative team. He isn't that type of character. He needs to be handled with baby gloves because a) he doesn't have the mainstream recognition to warrant a rabid following and b) he doesn't have a movie or TV series to build that following. Give him either a superstar creative team, or some mainstream exposure then he could pull it off.

And I'm aware of the crappy appearance in the FF cartoons and the even crappier motion comic.

Marvel needs to change their entire marketing strategy for the character. A retcon or two may help. The very concept of Wakanda hurts the character immensely.

Does the concept of Latveria hurt Dr. Doom?

Does the concept of Atlantis hurt Namor?

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#181 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@RatFace said:

Does the concept of Latveria hurt Dr. Doom?

Does the concept of Atlantis hurt Namor?

I think we already went over this. No, they don't.
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#182 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@flexhectic said:
I hate watered down and neutered Black Panther that lives in his kid sister's shadow. 
That Black Panther doesn't exist. 
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#183 Posted by TDK_1997 (18800 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read enough or seen enough from him to say if I like him or I hate him or that I don't give a f**k about him.

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#184 Posted by RatFace (29 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@RatFace said:

Does the concept of Latveria hurt Dr. Doom?

Does the concept of Atlantis hurt Namor?

I think we already went over this. No, they don't.

If that's the case then why does the existence of Wakanda hurt BP?

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#185 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@RatFace said:

If that's the case then why does the existence of Wakanda hurt BP?

Wakanda is an isolated nation in Africa. It doesn't have a strong superhero base. Black Panther is one of a kind. His obligation to that country keeps him from being heavily involved in certain important Marvel Events. Thus my point. Doom is a villain to all of the most popular heroes. He gets more exposure than any villain accept maybe Magneto and Namor is now an  X-Man, he was a member of the Illuminati, and Atlantis produces heroes that are members of American superhero teams. America being the focal point of most important storylines in the Marvel Universe.
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#186 Posted by RatFace (29 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@RatFace said:

If that's the case then why does the existence of Wakanda hurt BP?

Wakanda is an isolated nation in Africa. It doesn't have a strong superhero base. Black Panther is one of a kind. His obligation to that country keeps him from being heavily involved in certain important Marvel Events. Thus my point. Doom is a villain to all of the most popular heroes. He gets more exposure than any villain accept maybe Magneto and Namor is now an X-Man, he was a member of the Illuminati, and Atlantis produces heroes that are members of American superhero teams. America being the focal point of most important storylines in the Marvel Universe.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree.

I hate when a writer uses that cop-out, because that's all it is.

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#187 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@RatFace said:

I see what you're saying, but I disagree.

I hate when a writer uses that cop-out, because that's all it is.

You disagree, why? If everything that matters is happening in the U.S. then why would anyone care what's happening in Africa? Black Panther came late. Marvel had already established a strong superhero base in the United States before they even created Black Panther and it's only strengthened over the years. If Spider-Man,Wolverine,Thor,Iron Man,Hulk,Captain America,The FF,Avengers, X-Men and Daredevil are the focal of the Marvel Comics then where does Black Panther fit in? These are all American Teams and Superheroes. You've never seen this work for any company. Marvel and DC are the two biggest publishers. If all of their characters operate in one place, a character who operates outside of that doesn't stand a chance. Isolating him from the rest of the characters and important activities isn't likely to work for anyone.
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#188 Posted by KainScion (2991 posts) - - Show Bio

no of course not. hes dead now.

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#189 Posted by gravitypress (2102 posts) - - Show Bio

My only problem with him is why come to the US? Africa needs heroes badly and it seems strange for him to go to NY and fight crime for a country he should have no allegiance to.

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#190 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@gravitypress said:

My only problem with him is why come to the US? Africa needs heroes badly and it seems strange for him to go to NY and fight crime for a country he should have no allegiance to.

That's what I mean. If Marvel built a better superhero base in Africa, and Black Panther was at the head of that and still the most important or at least one of the most important characters over there, he'd be in better shape. The whole "Man Without Fear" thing was a joke. Nobody can tell me that doesn't make him look inferior to Daredevil when he's a king taking the cowl of a street crime fighter. When DD took the time off, that's when you give someone who has less of a role a chance to shine. That would have been perfect to bring Echo back instead of putting her in Moon Knight (whom she has no prior connection to) just to be killed off.
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#191 Posted by Eisehorn69 (14 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@gravitypress said:

My only problem with him is why come to the US? Africa needs heroes badly and it seems strange for him to go to NY and fight crime for a country he should have no allegiance to.

That's what I mean. If Marvel built a better superhero base in Africa, and Black Panther was at the head of that and still the most important or at least one of the most important characters over there, he'd be in better shape. The whole "Man Without Fear" thing was a joke. Nobody can tell me that doesn't make him look inferior to Daredevil when he's a king taking the cowl of a street crime fighter. When DD took the time off, that's when you give someone who has less of a role a chance to shine. That would have been perfect to bring Echo back instead of putting her in Moon Knight (whom she has no prior connection to) just to be killed off.

The reasons Marvel gave for transporting T'Challa to Hell's Kitchen during the Black Panther:Man Without Fear arc revolved around their belief that the character needed to be US based so as to interact more with the rest of the statesside based 616 MU.

This was ostensibly done to raisde the characters profile amongst some readers who may have been unable to relate to any stories told outside of the 616 MU's fictional US.

I don't think Marvel really though about how pissed off Daredevil fans felt about having BP thrust into their favored characters book or for arguments sake, how annoyed the Black Panther's core fanbase were at having his solo book cancelled before the disastrous Doomwar and the continued downward spiral of BP's stock in the aftermath of the aformentioned Jonathan Maberry scripted hatchet job on T'Challa, Storm and Wakanda.

In my humble opinion, David Liss did a lot to gradualy repair the damage Doomwar blighted the BP mythos with by managing to eke out an interesting storyline inspite of the ill suited premise of Black Panther:Man Without Fear before going full throttle with Black Panther: Most Dangerous Man Alive which saw a return to a more recognizable T'Challa in the vein of Christopher Priest's characterization of the hero.

Unfortunately, Marvel decided to pull the plug on the character's solo book just as David Liss was gradually working towards returning T'Challa to Wakanda via the Kingpin Of Wakanda storyline.

One is left wondering why Marvel opted to kill a book that was well on the way to returning the Black Panther character to relevance just before launching AvX and the Hickman helmed FF arcs featuring BP and Wakanda which would have provided an excellent platform for crossover stories and a possible raised profile of the BP solo title?

Either way, Marvel seem to be focusing some attention on BP and Wakanda at the moment but as recent scans from AvX land show Namor demolishing Wakanda with tidal waves and atlantean warriors in tow iut remains to be seen how serious they are about portraying T'Challa and his fellow Wakandan's correctly as originally envisaged by Lee and Kirby.

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#192 Posted by Eisehorn69 (14 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@RatFace said:

I see what you're saying, but I disagree.

I hate when a writer uses that cop-out, because that's all it is.

You disagree, why? If everything that matters is happening in the U.S. then why would anyone care what's happening in Africa? Black Panther came late. Marvel had already established a strong superhero base in the United States before they even created Black Panther and it's only strengthened over the years. If Spider-Man,Wolverine,Thor,Iron Man,Hulk,Captain America,The FF,Avengers, X-Men and Daredevil are the focal of the Marvel Comics then where does Black Panther fit in? These are all American Teams and Superheroes. You've never seen this work for any company. Marvel and DC are the two biggest publishers. If all of their characters operate in one place, a character who operates outside of that doesn't stand a chance. Isolating him from the rest of the characters and important activities isn't likely to work for anyone.

Kun Lun is a fictional mystical city but aht hasn't prevented Iron Fist from being a staple within the mainstream 616 MU so I fail to see what point you're attempting to make by citing Wakanda's being in Africa has to do with reader interest in the region or the Black panther as a character.

As far as I know, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the Black Panther and the foundation for his attendant mythos all the way back in 1966 a full EIGHT years before both Iron Fist and Wolverine who were both introduced as 616 MU characters in 1974 so when you say that the Black panther came into the shared 616 MU "late" you clearly have a very funny idea as to what consitutes as being late.

The Black panther's existence as a viable character published by Marvel is all that should matter on a level playing field but when there are some readers and writers who seem to be of the impression that the character needs to be marginalized and depowered constantly due to the ridiculous belief that he's "too powerful" whilst other characters like Mockingbird and Iron Fist are powered up to the nth degree to little (if any) reader complaint then a clear and undeniable double standard would be evident to anyone looking at the matter with unbiased eyes.

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#193 Posted by RatFace (29 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@RatFace said:

I see what you're saying, but I disagree.

I hate when a writer uses that cop-out, because that's all it is.

You disagree, why? If everything that matters is happening in the U.S. then why would anyone care what's happening in Africa? Black Panther came late. Marvel had already established a strong superhero base in the United States before they even created Black Panther and it's only strengthened over the years. If Spider-Man,Wolverine,Thor,Iron Man,Hulk,Captain America,The FF,Avengers, X-Men and Daredevil are the focal of the Marvel Comics then where does Black Panther fit in? These are all American Teams and Superheroes. You've never seen this work for any company. Marvel and DC are the two biggest publishers. If all of their characters operate in one place, a character who operates outside of that doesn't stand a chance. Isolating him from the rest of the characters and important activities isn't likely to work for anyone.

I disagree about this: "His obligation to that country keeps him from being heavily involved in certain important Marvel Events." The only things that prevent him from being heavily involved in important events is the lack of imagination of some writers and Marvel not putting him in events.

Hickman doesn't seem to be having a problem.

Plus he's heavily involved in AVX.

So this theory that Wakanda is some kind of impediment to Black Panther is a cop-out.

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#194 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

Smh...E and Ratface, well said!

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#195 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Eisehorn69 said:

The reasons Marvel gave for transporting T'Challa to Hell's Kitchen during the Black Panther:Man Without Fear arc revolved around their belief that the character needed to be US based so as to interact more with the rest of the statesside based 616 MU.

This was ostensibly done to raisde the characters profile amongst some readers who may have been unable to relate to any stories told outside of the 616 MU's fictional US.

I don't think Marvel really though about how pissed off Daredevil fans felt about having BP thrust into their favored characters book or for arguments sake, how annoyed the Black Panther's core fanbase were at having his solo book cancelled before the disastrous Doomwar and the continued downward spiral of BP's stock in the aftermath of the aformentioned Jonathan Maberry scripted hatchet job on T'Challa, Storm and Wakanda.

In my humble opinion, David Liss did a lot to gradualy repair the damage Doomwar blighted the BP mythos with by managing to eke out an interesting storyline inspite of the ill suited premise of Black Panther:Man Without Fear before going full throttle with Black Panther: Most Dangerous Man Alive which saw a return to a more recognizable T'Challa in the vein of Christopher Priest's characterization of the hero.

Unfortunately, Marvel decided to pull the plug on the character's solo book just as David Liss was gradually working towards returning T'Challa to Wakanda via the Kingpin Of Wakanda storyline.

One is left wondering why Marvel opted to kill a book that was well on the way to returning the Black Panther character to relevance just before launching AvX and the Hickman helmed FF arcs featuring BP and Wakanda which would have provided an excellent platform for crossover stories and a possible raised profile of the BP solo title?

Either way, Marvel seem to be focusing some attention on BP and Wakanda at the moment but as recent scans from AvX land show Namor demolishing Wakanda with tidal waves and atlantean warriors in tow iut remains to be seen how serious they are about portraying T'Challa and his fellow Wakandan's correctly as originally envisaged by Lee and Kirby.

Marvel pulled the plug on Liss' run because it wasn't selling very well.  
 
@Eisehorn69 said:

Kun Lun is a fictional mystical city but aht hasn't prevented Iron Fist from being a staple within the mainstream 616 MU so I fail to see what point you're attempting to make by citing Wakanda's being in Africa has to do with reader interest in the region or the Black panther as a character.

Iron Fist doesn't live in K'un Lun. He lives in New York. So he and Black Panther are of no comparison. Iron Fist almost exclusively operates in the United States, where most superhero activity happens. My point about Wakanda being in Africa is that it's Black Panther's main base of operations. It's part of a continent that doesn't have a strong superhero base so besides when it comes to Black Panther or maybe Storm (depending on what book we're talking about), Marvel doesn't give any attention to that area, they are mostly focusing on what happens beyond the earth itself or what happens in the United States. So the question I am raising is, what incentive does a non-reader have to start picking up Black Panther? He had tie-ins to every major event since House of M. You think anyone who didn't already like the character, remembers his role in any of those events?  

@Eisehorn69 said:

As far as I know, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the Black Panther and the foundation for his attendant mythos all the way back in 1966 a full EIGHT years before both Iron Fist and Wolverine who were both introduced as 616 MU characters in 1974 so when you say that the Black panther came into the shared 616 MU "late" you clearly have a very funny idea as to what consitutes as being late.

I don't have a funny idea of what it means to be late, I don't think you understood. Iron Fist and Wolverine were late too. Captain America,The Avengers,Hulk,Iron Man,Thor,Spider-Man,The F4,The  X-men,& Daredevil already had ongoing comics before Black Panther was even created. Black Panther's first volume came out in '77. By then most of these books were over 10 years in.
 
@Eisehorn69 said:

The Black panther's existence as a viable character published by Marvel is all that should matter on a level playing field 

I agree. 
 
@Eisehorn69 said:

 but when there are some readers and writers who seem to be of the impression that the character needs to be marginalized and depowered constantly due to the ridiculous belief that he's "too powerful" whilst other characters like Mockingbird and Iron Fist are powered up to the nth degree to little (if any) reader complaint then a clear and undeniable double standard would be evident to anyone looking at the matter with unbiased eyes.

I agree with this also. Dwayne Mcduffie spoke about people being ok with Batman fighting Darkseid but not with Black Panther fighting Silver Surfer although both scenarios are ridiculous.
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#196 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@RatFace said:

The only things that prevent him from being heavily involved in important events is the lack of imagination of some writers and Marvel not putting him in events.

The only events Black Panther wasn't in are the ones that happen outside of earth,those that are specific to one character like Hulk or Daredevil and he missed Siege,and Dark Reign (because Shuri was Black Panther during his tie-ins).Other than that he was a part of every other event. (House of M,Civil War,Initiative,Secret Invasion). My point about the events is what he actually DOES in them. His role has almost never been essential to the story. When Captain America,Iron Man,Hulk,Wolverine,Thor etc. appear..the story can't move forward without them..because they are the focal point.
 
 
@RatFace said:

Hickman doesn't seem to be having a problem.

Plus he's heavily involved in AVX.

So this theory that Wakanda is some kind of impediment to Black Panther is a cop-out.

Thanks to his mutant wife.
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#197 Posted by Eisehorn69 (14 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Eisehorn69 said:

The reasons Marvel gave for transporting T'Challa to Hell's Kitchen during the Black Panther:Man Without Fear arc revolved around their belief that the character needed to be US based so as to interact more with the rest of the statesside based 616 MU.

This was ostensibly done to raisde the characters profile amongst some readers who may have been unable to relate to any stories told outside of the 616 MU's fictional US.

I don't think Marvel really though about how pissed off Daredevil fans felt about having BP thrust into their favored characters book or for arguments sake, how annoyed the Black Panther's core fanbase were at having his solo book cancelled before the disastrous Doomwar and the continued downward spiral of BP's stock in the aftermath of the aformentioned Jonathan Maberry scripted hatchet job on T'Challa, Storm and Wakanda.

In my humble opinion, David Liss did a lot to gradualy repair the damage Doomwar blighted the BP mythos with by managing to eke out an interesting storyline inspite of the ill suited premise of Black Panther:Man Without Fear before going full throttle with Black Panther: Most Dangerous Man Alive which saw a return to a more recognizable T'Challa in the vein of Christopher Priest's characterization of the hero.

Unfortunately, Marvel decided to pull the plug on the character's solo book just as David Liss was gradually working towards returning T'Challa to Wakanda via the Kingpin Of Wakanda storyline.

One is left wondering why Marvel opted to kill a book that was well on the way to returning the Black Panther character to relevance just before launching AvX and the Hickman helmed FF arcs featuring BP and Wakanda which would have provided an excellent platform for crossover stories and a possible raised profile of the BP solo title?

Either way, Marvel seem to be focusing some attention on BP and Wakanda at the moment but as recent scans from AvX land show Namor demolishing Wakanda with tidal waves and atlantean warriors in tow iut remains to be seen how serious they are about portraying T'Challa and his fellow Wakandan's correctly as originally envisaged by Lee and Kirby.

Marvel pulled the plug on Liss' run because it wasn't selling very well.

@Eisehorn69 said:

Kun Lun is a fictional mystical city but aht hasn't prevented Iron Fist from being a staple within the mainstream 616 MU so I fail to see what point you're attempting to make by citing Wakanda's being in Africa has to do with reader interest in the region or the Black panther as a character.

Iron Fist doesn't live in K'un Lun. He lives in New York. So he and Black Panther are of no comparison. Iron Fist almost exclusively operates in the United States, where most superhero activity happens. My point about Wakanda being in Africa is that it's Black Panther's main base of operations. It's part of a continent that doesn't have a strong superhero base so besides when it comes to Black Panther or maybe Storm (depending on what book we're talking about), Marvel doesn't give any attention to that area, they are mostly focusing on what happens beyond the earth itself or what happens in the United States. So the question I am raising is, what incentive does a non-reader have to start picking up Black Panther? He had tie-ins to every major event since House of M. You think anyone who didn't already like the character, remembers his role in any of those events?

@Eisehorn69 said:

As far as I know, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the Black Panther and the foundation for his attendant mythos all the way back in 1966 a full EIGHT years before both Iron Fist and Wolverine who were both introduced as 616 MU characters in 1974 so when you say that the Black panther came into the shared 616 MU "late" you clearly have a very funny idea as to what consitutes as being late.

I don't have a funny idea of what it means to be late, I don't think you understood. Iron Fist and Wolverine were late too. Captain America,The Avengers,Hulk,Iron Man,Thor,Spider-Man,The F4,The X-men,& Daredevil already had ongoing comics before Black Panther was even created. Black Panther's first volume came out in '77. By then most of these books were over 10 years in.

@Eisehorn69 said:

The Black panther's existence as a viable character published by Marvel is all that should matter on a level playing field

I agree.

@Eisehorn69 said:

but when there are some readers and writers who seem to be of the impression that the character needs to be marginalized and depowered constantly due to the ridiculous belief that he's "too powerful" whilst other characters like Mockingbird and Iron Fist are powered up to the nth degree to little (if any) reader complaint then a clear and undeniable double standard would be evident to anyone looking at the matter with unbiased eyes.

I agree with this also. Dwayne Mcduffie spoke about people being ok with Batman fighting Darkseid but not with Black Panther fighting Silver Surfer although both scenarios are ridiculous.

Hmmm, where to start?

I'm not really fanmiliar with the quoting protocols on this site so I'm going to have to do this the hard way. (Drat)

I raise Kun Lun for the simple fact that like the Inhuman's Great Refuge, Namor's Atlantis, Thor's Asgard/Asgardia and (of course) T'Challa's Wakanda it still remains a fictional realm that exists outside of the 616 MU's US.

You can't possibly be arguing that all of these characters are any less able to appear regularly in the mainstream 616 MU because their all overly attached to their respective places of origin?

And even if for arguments sake this was the case that would not prevent any writer worth their salt from being able to craft suitable stories around these characters as has been the case over the past many years.

Most of Walt Simonson's work on The Mighty Thor took place off of Earth but this did not make Thor any less of an interesting character to read about in my humble opinion.

I grew up reading all sorts of Marvel comic books in the 1970's and can honestly say that locale was never something that bothered me as a child, teenager or young adult as I was always more interested in the unusual realms explored by the likes of Adam Warlock, Dr Strange, Thor and the Silver Surfer so maybe I'm a bit biased.

I've never understood this reticence on the part of some readers to be more open minded as far as locale goes due to the fact that I'm a heavy science fiction/fantasy/horror fan and as such, remain open to all sorts of stories regardless of seting. LOL!

Hickman is currently doing a good job handling T'Challa via the FF/FF books and with the developments within the AvX event it will be interesting to see what happens to the Black Panther mythos coming out of that.

The Black Panther's introduction via # 52 of the Fantastic Four back in 1966 is an innescapable fact which I used to counter your position that he was but a late arrival to the 616 MU. There's no arguing that the Avengers, FF, Hulk, X-Men may have come before him as developed characters but Iron Fist, Wolverine and a host of others came after him and still get more major play and exposure than he does.

How does that strike you as being logical or fair?

All in all, I enjoyed your post for the most part and look forward to debating/discussing more with you in the near future.

Peace.

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#198 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Eisehorn69 said: 

I raise Kun Lun for the simple fact that like the Inhuman's Great Refuge, Namor's Atlantis, Thor's Asgard/Asgardia and (of course) T'Challa's Wakanda it still remains a fictional realm that exists outside of the 616 MU's US.

I understood the connection you were making, but in relation to the point I was making those characters don't fit. 
 
@Eisehorn69 said:

You can't possibly be arguing that all of these characters are any less able to appear regularly in the mainstream 616 MU because their all overly attached to their respective places of origin?

I don't understand this question. They all appear regularly in the 616 universe. I'll tell you this, though if Thor wasn't a founding Avenger and rarely came to earth I don't think he would be as popular as he is now. 
 
@Eisehorn69 said:

And even if for arguments sake this was the case that would not prevent any writer worth their salt from being able to craft suitable stories around these characters as has been the case over the past many years.

Most people agree that Priest's run was the best run of Black Panther, yet Hudlin's was more successful. A good writer can, write something that makes sense and that fans of the character enjoy but it takes more than good writing for the book to be a success. I thought Immortal Iron Fist was amazing..it still got cancelled.
 
@Eisehorn69 said:

Most of Walt Simonson's work on The Mighty Thor took place off of Earth but this did not make Thor any less of an interesting character to read about in my humble opinion.

The issue isn't whether Black Panther is interesting or not. The issue is trying to sell a character in a market dominated by white American heroes without directly using them to boost his exposure.
 
@Eisehorn69 said:

I grew up reading all sorts of Marvel comic books in the 1970's and can honestly say that locale was never something that bothered me as a child, teenager or young adult as I was always more interested in the unusual realms explored by the likes of Adam Warlock, Dr Strange, Thor and the Silver Surfer so maybe I'm a bit biased.

I didn't start actually reading comics until the mid-late 90's. If not for cartoons like  X-Men & Spider-Man, I probably wouldn't have though. Now that I am a hardcore reader, I give a bunch of different books a chance even if I wasn't particularly interested in that character before. I would have eventually read Black Panther, because I have that much respect for Marvel Comics. They make a majority of my favorite books..but reading Black Panther or catching up on the character was important to me until people on comicvine showed me via battle forums how badass he can be. 
 
@Eisehorn69 said:

I've never understood this reticence on the part of some readers to be more open minded as far as locale goes due to the fact that I'm a heavy science fiction/fantasy/horror fan and as such, remain open to all sorts of stories regardless of seting. LOL!

I don't understand it either but the sad fact is that alot of Marvel's readers are like that. 
 
  
@Eisehorn69 said:

The Black Panther's introduction via # 52 of the Fantastic Four back in 1966 is an innescapable fact which I used to counter your position that he was but a late arrival to the 616 MU. There's no arguing that the Avengers, FF, Hulk, X-Men may have come before him as developed characters but Iron Fist, Wolverine and a host of others came after him and still get more major play and exposure than he does.

I know when he appeared in the Marvel Universe. It doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying. Marvel was pushing several comic series before Black Panther ever appeared. The characters I named had books and were making Marvel money and in the case of most of them..they still are. These are the characters that people identify with Marvel Comics because they built the company. My point wasn't that Black Panther can't have further exposure because he "came late", I'm saying it's hard for a character to get to a point where they are mentioned among the top sellers when those top sellers are the characters that have been most important to the company years before they ever tried giving the newcomer that push as a solo hero.Wolverine is the only exception to that. Wolverine made it but he's a one of one.  
 
@Eisehorn69 said: 

All in all, I enjoyed your post for the most part and look forward to debating/discussing more with you in the near future.

Peace.

Thanks. I'm glad to see a newcomer enjoying a debate. Welcome to Comicvine.
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#199 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

So as I Said before.. T'challa is not Street. As of Fantastic Four #608 no one is going to be able to claim it. Frak yes, Hickman and Brevoort are awesome! I'm glad they listened to fans on the subject!

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#200 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

E, I agree with everything you said brother --as usual.

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