Do people hate Black Panther?

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#51 Posted by Blood1991 (8115 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not going to lie I didn't give him a second thought until he was to be married to Storm. That being said I don't blame his character for that mess of a marriage, infact I kinda like BP. Though I agree with Vance on him being a rather doomed concept...

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#52 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

I agree with Vance's point, he needs to step the f*ck down as the King and join the Avengers as a core member.

Nice.
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#53 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mykhael said:

@ReVamp: Do people think Namor should step down as king? Just asking because I don't know, I'm wondering if people think it hurts his character.

Not really.

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#54 Posted by BatWatch (5487 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't read all the OP because you're weird format bugged me, but I am neutral on Black Panther.

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#55 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@Mykhael said:

@ReVamp: Do people think Namor should step down as king? Just asking because I don't know, I'm wondering if people think it hurts his character.

Not really.

Agreed. Namor being a King doesn't hurt him as much as it does Black Panther. A street leveler hero also being a king doesn't make ANY sense. They should have left King T'Chaka alive so he could be the Prince and when he ventures out it's not a detriment on his kingdom because he's not the ruler or they should have Shuri take his place while he tends to Wakanda. Namor spends alot more time doing the King thing then Black Panther.
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#56 Posted by daredevil21134 (15939 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@ReVamp said:

@Mykhael said:

@ReVamp: Do people think Namor should step down as king? Just asking because I don't know, I'm wondering if people think it hurts his character.

Not really.

Agreed. Namor being a King doesn't hurt him as much as it does Black Panther. A street leveler hero also being a king doesn't make ANY sense. They should have left King T'Chaka alive so he could be the Prince and when he ventures out it's not a detriment on his kingdom because he's not the ruler or they should have Shuri take his place while he tends to Wakanda. Namor spends alot more time doing the King thing then Black Panther.

I like that idea

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#57 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@ReVamp said:

@Mykhael said:

@ReVamp: Do people think Namor should step down as king? Just asking because I don't know, I'm wondering if people think it hurts his character.

Not really.

A street leveler hero also being a king doesn't make ANY sense.

Disagree.

They should have left King T'Chaka alive so he could be the Prince and when he ventures out it's not a detriment on his kingdom

I've always thought that this should be the case as well. Being a Prince would give him all of the benefits but none of the detriments of being a King. Or at least Overall, that's the idea.

because he's not the ruler or they should have Shuri take his place while he tends to Wakanda.

Don't like the idea personally, but I guess its a possible alternative.

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#58 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3080 posts) - - Show Bio

its seems him being a prince might work better.

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#59 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

Disagree.

How does it make sense? The area he has to cover is too large. "Street level hero" is a concept that works better when you only cover a city like Gotham or Hell's Kitchen, Black Panther has to cover alot more ground than other heroes. That's why he was the logical choice to take Daredevil's spot before the end of DD Reborn because in Hell's Kitchen his role makes more sense. A King doesn't "fight crime", that's grunt work. If Black Panther had other lower level superheroes working for him and he only came out for the big fish..that would make more sense...but if i'm not mistaken he's the only superhero in Wakanda, one of three if you count his wife and Shuri.
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#60 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@ReVamp said:

Disagree.

How does it make sense? The area he has to cover is too large. "Street level hero" is a concept that works better when you only cover a city like Gotham or Hell's Kitchen, Black Panther has to cover alot more ground than other heroes. That's why he was the logical choice to take Daredevil's spot before the end of DD Reborn because in Hell's Kitchen his role makes more sense. A King doesn't "fight crime", that's grunt work. If Black Panther had other lower level superheroes working for him and he only came out for the big fish..that would make more sense...but if i'm not mistaken he's the only superhero in Wakanda, one of three if you count his wife and Shuri.

Ah. I see what you're saying now, I hadn't thought of it that way. Still, I'm not sure it really matters. Ignoring feats, he's meant to be the 8th (or 9th, I forget) smartest man in thte world, with plans against the likes of Galactus. I'd say he can protect his country against other threats from outside quite well, not to mention the technology that's available for him. That having been said, I'm not even sure there's supposed to be any crime in Wakanda, if that's what you're implying?

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#61 Posted by WARLOCK2792 (18072 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Night Thrasher said:

@Vance Astro: That's kinda what I'm saying. If it were announced today that Grant Morrison was going to be writing Black Panther with Chris Bachalo penciling, then I can almost guarantee that the 1st issue is going to sell in the top 10, have about 10 variant covers, and at least 2 reprints. The thing about it is that around issue 6 Grant's going to leave and Chris would've probably been gone for about 2 issues. When they replace them, Panther's core fan base isn't strong enough to endure a mediocre to bad creative team. He isn't that type of character. He needs to be handled with baby gloves because a) he doesn't have the mainstream recognition to warrant a rabid following and b) he doesn't have a movie or TV series to build that following. Give him either a superstar creative team, or some mainstream exposure then he could pull it off.

And I'm aware of the crappy appearance in the FF cartoons and the even crappier motion comic.

Marvel needs to change their entire marketing strategy for the character. A retcon or two may help. The very concept of Wakanda hurts the character immensely.

Thank you......................for stating that fact

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#62 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

Ah. I see what you're saying now, I hadn't thought of it that way. Still, I'm not sure it really matters. Ignoring feats, he's meant to be the 8th (or 9th, I forget) smartest man in thte world, with plans against the likes of Galactus. I'd say he can protect his country against other threats from outside quite well, not to mention the technology that's available for him. That having been said, I'm not even sure there's supposed to be any crime in Wakanda, if that's what you're implying?

I think it does matter. Black Panther is fully capable of protecting his whole country. Wakandans are very technologically sound, supposedly more so than the U.S.. The point I'm making is it defeats the purpose of being a street leveler. For all this he COULD just create a suit similar to that of Iron Man and have that be his superhero persona. I don't quite remember because I haven't read BP in some time but back when his book was called "Jungle Action: Starring Black Panther", Black Panther was fighting crime in various parts of Africa, does it really make sense that a King..someone who is very important to their throne in their country is doing that type of work? Wouldn't it make more sense if he didn't bother getting his hands dirty, he had other heroes or henchman to do that type of stuff.
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#63 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@ReVamp said:

Ah. I see what you're saying now, I hadn't thought of it that way. Still, I'm not sure it really matters. Ignoring feats, he's meant to be the 8th (or 9th, I forget) smartest man in thte world, with plans against the likes of Galactus. I'd say he can protect his country against other threats from outside quite well, not to mention the technology that's available for him. That having been said, I'm not even sure there's supposed to be any crime in Wakanda, if that's what you're implying?

I think it does matter. Black Panther is fully capable of protecting his whole country. Wakandans are very technologically sound, supposedly more so than the U.S.. The point I'm making is it defeats the purpose of being a street leveler. For all this he COULD just create a suit similar to that of Iron Man and have that be his superhero persona. I don't quite remember because I haven't read BP in some time but back when his book was called "Jungle Action: Starring Black Panther", Black Panther was fighting crime in various parts of Africa, does it really make sense that a King..someone who is very important to their throne in their country is doing that type of work? Wouldn't it make more sense if he didn't bother getting his hands dirty, he had other heroes or henchman to do that type of stuff.

Ah. Yes. You're essentially trying to say its futile for him to be a King if he's going to be doing Street-Level type ish.

If that's the case, then the problem isn't necessarily him being a King, but yes, I agree as well.

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#64 Posted by Mykhael (71 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro:Have you ever gotten a chance to read Priest's run on BP?

Priest made it work for 4 years or so and thats why I think it would work.

You're right it doesn't make sense for a king to fight crime as a street level chracter but in Priest's volume he didn't "fight crime"; he wasn't a street level criminal. Everything that BP did in that series was related to his being king of Wakanda. The only reason BP was in America during part of the run was because of a scandal that was taking place with a charitibale organization that he set up that resulted in the death of a little girl. Any criminal that was taken down inthe process was not arrested but used as the panthers informant.

All of this lead to more and more politcal drama that was centered around BP, Wakanda and him being king. When the reader gets comfortable thinking that Tchalla is a hero you are reminded that he is a king.

It was well done and was his longest running series.

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#65 Edited by Mykhael (71 posts) - - Show Bio

I will admit that there is fine line that any writer has to walk.

You either come up with a legit reason why he's dealing with petty criminals like Liss or make a complex and logical political thriller about him being King like Priest.

This is part of a testimony on behalf of Tchalla during a congressional hearing on the BP's actions while in America

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/MykullKhaN/1210937-blackpanther30ross03.jpg

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#66 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mykhael said:

@Vance Astro:Have you ever gotten a chance to read Priest's run on BP?

Priest made it work for 4 years or so and thats why I think it would work.

You're right it doesn't make sense for a king to fight crime as a street level chracter but in Priest's volume he didn't "fight crime"; he wasn't a street level criminal. Everything that BP did in that series was related to his being king of Wakanda. The only reason BP was in America during part of the run was because of a scandal that was taking place with a charitibale organization that he set up that resulted in the death of a little girl. Any criminal that was taken down inthe process was not arrested but used as the panthers informant.

All of this lead to more and more politcal drama that was centered around BP, Wakanda and him being king. When the reader gets comfortable thinking that Tchalla is a hero you are reminded that he is a king.

It was well done and was his longest running series.

I believe I've read every volume of Black Panther. The only series I didn't get to read was Man Without Fear. I wasn't really interested. After Hudlin's run i'm kind of all about Shuri. T'Challa's character doesn't make sense to me anymore. It's not that he's not a good character, it's just that the way that the character is set up has so many fails in it. Marvel is never going to be able to sell that character the way they want to because his origin itself puts up road blocks for writing.  Priest's run was good. It was the run that made me like the character Black Panther. I just feel like a retcon or a change in the direction of the character is an order. 
 
@ReVamp said:

If that's the case, then the problem isn't necessarily him being a King, but yes, I agree as well.

The problem is his origin itself.
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#67 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (7657 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro
@Mykhael said:

@Vance Astro:Have you ever gotten a chance to read Priest's run on BP?

Priest made it work for 4 years or so and thats why I think it would work.

You're right it doesn't make sense for a king to fight crime as a street level chracter but in Priest's volume he didn't "fight crime"; he wasn't a street level criminal. Everything that BP did in that series was related to his being king of Wakanda. The only reason BP was in America during part of the run was because of a scandal that was taking place with a charitibale organization that he set up that resulted in the death of a little girl. Any criminal that was taken down inthe process was not arrested but used as the panthers informant.

All of this lead to more and more politcal drama that was centered around BP, Wakanda and him being king. When the reader gets comfortable thinking that Tchalla is a hero you are reminded that he is a king.

It was well done and was his longest running series.

I believe I've read every volume of Black Panther. The only series I didn't get to read was Man Without Fear. I wasn't really interested. After Hudlin's run i'm kind of all about Shuri. T'Challa's character doesn't make sense to me anymore. It's not that he's not a good character, it's just that the way that the character is set up has so many fails in it. Marvel is never going to be able to sell that character the way they want to because his origin itself puts up road blocks for writing.  Priest's run was good. It was the run that made me like the character Black Panther. I just feel like a retcon or a change in the direction of the character is an order. 
 
@ReVamp said:

If that's the case, then the problem isn't necessarily him being a King, but yes, I agree as well.

The problem is his origin itself.
How does his origin hurt him ?
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#68 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@WaveMotionCannon said:
How does his origin hurt him ?
It isolates him from important events and other heroes and it makes him tough to relate to.
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#69 Posted by daredevil21134 (15939 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@WaveMotionCannon said:
How does his origin hurt him ?
It isolates him from important events and other heroes and it makes him tough to relate to.

I definitely agree that it makes him tough to relate to

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#70 Posted by moneyspider1 (139 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think that the Black Panther is any tougher to relate to than Thor is, or Iron Man is, or Batman is. Why is T'Challa harder to relate to? People say they can relate to Iron Man, but how many of those people are billionaires who own their own company and fly around in a suit of armor all day? Or how many people who say they can relate to Thor are gods from Norse mythology? But for some reason, people claim they can't relate to a king of an African country. And as far as the Black Panther being isolated from the rest of the Marvel Universe, all he probably has to do is have the Wakandan Tribal Council make decisions or whatever whenever he and Ororo are out of the country, and he can use the Nowhere Room and Shadow Physics to travel back and forth between Wakanda, America and wherever else in a matter of seconds (or however long it takes to use the Nowhere Room). Another thing is, I thing a lot of people try to make apply real-world scenarios to comic book fiction. People say they can't understand how a king can fight crime, yet these same people have no problem believing that a Norse god chooses to live on Earth and another guy is running around with the powers of a spider.

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#71 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@moneyspider1 said:
I don't think that the Black Panther is any tougher to relate to than Thor is, or Iron Man is, or Batman is. Why is T'Challa harder to relate to? 
This is true, but unlike T'Challa these characters have more backing from the company and other popular heroes. So not only is he hard to relate to but he lacks the exposure those other characters are accustomed to. T'Challa is a cool character if you're willing to read his books. 
 
@moneyspider1 said:
But for some reason, people claim they can't relate to a king of an African country.  
If there was a stronger superhero base in Africa. This would probably be different. Most heroes, however reside in the US and most of all in NY. 
 
@moneyspider1 said:
Another thing is, I thing a lot of people try to make apply real-world scenarios to comic book fiction. People say they can't understand how a king can fight crime, yet these same people have no problem believing that a Norse god chooses to live on Earth and another guy is running around with the powers of a spider.
I don't see why you think Thor residing on Earth or Spider-Man's powers themselves is comparable to a king fighting crime. Thor having compassion for humans and residing on earth to ensure their safety makes sense. Spider-Man's powers themselves don't make any sense but almost no character has powers that make sense. Including Black Panther. The idea of a street leveler makes sense also, Black Panther being a King and also fitting under that label doesn't make sense though.
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#72 Posted by moneyspider1 (139 posts) - - Show Bio

@VanceAstro: A Norse god residing on Earth and leaving his land and Spider-Man having the powers of a spider is definitely comparable to a king fighting crime because when you think about it, all three scenarios are completely ridiculous. But yes, the more popular characters seem to get the most leeway with their ridiculousness while less popular characters like the Black Panther get labeled with "I can't relate to him." There are tons of things about Spider-Man that make utterly no sense, but since he is so popular, people tend to overlook a lot of stuff with him.

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#73 Posted by FearTheLiving (8837 posts) - - Show Bio

From what I've seen of him I really like the character. Hoping he'll get his own movie.

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#74 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@moneyspider1 said:
@VanceAstro: A Norse god residing on Earth and leaving his land and Spider-Man having the powers of a spider is definitely comparable to a king fighting crime because when you think about it, all three scenarios are completely ridiculous. But yes, the more popular characters seem to get the most leeway with their ridiculousness while less popular characters like the Black Panther get labeled with "I can't relate to him." There are tons of things about Spider-Man that make utterly no sense, but since he is so popular, people tend to overlook a lot of stuff with him.
I don't think you're getting my point. Spider-Man's powers may not make any sense but at the very least he's written into situations that make sense for his character style. Spider-Man is a street leveler. He fights crime. He takes down common criminals, he does after muggers, and low level super-villains. That makes perfect sense in relation to what his powers are and what type of character he's supposed to be. Black Panther on the other hand is structured like a street level hero but considering but the role he plays in his country is much bigger than that character type. You get what I'm saying now? 
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#75 Edited by moneyspider1 (139 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro No, not really. I've never had a problem with the things the Black Panther has been shown doing. I've never had a problem with him being king one minute and handling tricky political scenarios and beating the snot out of criminals in New York and pulling them up fire escapes by their hair the next minute. To me, this shows that the Black Panther has many facets to him.

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#76 Posted by danhimself (21433 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't hate him...I just don't care that he's there....I've tried reading several of his series and just couldn't get into them so I ended up dropping them pretty quickly...maybe as 30 year old white guy from Pennsylvania it's just hard for me to relate to a black guy from Africa who runs his own country....honestly I think that's it...for me the best attempt at the character were I was able to semi enjoy the book was when he took over the Man Without Fear book and I think that if that book was better written I might have enjoyed it more

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#77 Posted by Twentyfive (3057 posts) - - Show Bio

BP is one of Marvel's greatest underrated character, if not THE greatest. If Marvel cared to write him more often, people would see what he is truly capable of. So, just off of his potential, I say he is probably one of Marvel's greatest characters period. Nuff said.

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#78 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@moneyspider1 said:
@Vance Astro No, not really. I've never had a problem with the things the Black Panther has been shown doing. I've never had a problem with him being king one minute and handling tricky political scenarios and beating the snot out of criminals in New York and pulling them up fire escapes by their hair the next minute. To me, this shows that the Black Panther has many facets to him.
I still don't think you understood my point.
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#79 Edited by Mykhael (71 posts) - - Show Bio

How often has the panther actually been a street level character? The panther, for most of his career has never been a

traditional crime fighter because he isnt really ever is intent on fighting crime like other Marvel characters. I don't think there is anyone one thing

that makes black panther hard to relate to, it's probably a number of different things so I can't place that at the feet of the concept of Wakanda.

1. He hasn't the complete support and backing of Marvel

2. Inconsistent quality of his stories

3. People who feel like this: "I just don't care that he's there....I've tried reading several of his series and jst couldn't get into them so I ended up dropping them pretty quickly...maybe' 30 year old white guy from Pennsylvania it's just hard for me to relate to a lack guy from Africa who runs his own country....honestly I think that's

it...for me the best attempt at the character were I was able to semi enjoy the ook was when he took over the Man Without Fear book and I think that if that

book was better written I might have enjoyed it more"

There really isn’t much difference between Panther and Namor except Panther is more realistic., what else is there.

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#80 Posted by Wolfshead (19 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm surprised Static Shock didn't step into this debate yet.

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#81 Posted by HolySerpent (13762 posts) - - Show Bio

I never really care for black panther.

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#82 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mykhael said:

How often has the panther actually been a street level character? 

Every issue of Black Panther he proves to be street level. 
 
@Mykhael said:

traditional crime fighter because he isnt really ever is intent on fighting crime like other Marvel characters. I don't think there is anyone one thing

Black Panther doesn't often fight characters like Morlun,Doom,The Skrulls etc. His enemies are usually characters like Killmonger,Man-Ape,Kraven the Hunter,The KKK,those are street level enemies. 
 
@Mykhael said:

that makes black panther hard to relate to, it's probably a number of different things so I can't place that at the feet of the concept of Wakanda.

I did say the concept of Wakanda makes Black Panther hard to relate to but that's only part of the reason his comics don't sell. I also mentioned his isolation.Wakanda is in Africa. They don't have a strong superhero base in Africa, Black Panther is all alone. The most important things that happen in the Marvel Universe for the last 5-6 years have been their events. Most of those events only have any significance to the United States, because that's where MOST of the superheroes are. So with Black Panther being the King of Wakanda, how much impact can\will he have in important events in the Marvel Universe? 
 
@Mykhael said:

1. He hasn't the complete support and backing of Marvel

No, Black character does. 
 
@Mykhael said:

2. Inconsistent quality of his stories

Very, True. 
 
@Mykhael said:

3. People who feel like this: "I just don't care that he's there....I've tried reading several of his series and jst couldn't get into them so I ended up dropping them pretty quickly...maybe' 30 year old white guy from Pennsylvania it's just hard for me to relate to a lack guy from Africa who runs his own country....honestly I think that's

This proves my point. If mostly everything that matters in the Marvel Universe happens nowhere near Africa, how can a Wakandan superhero make viable sales competition for the more popular white male superheroes, when they are doing all the meaningful stuff in the US? Why would anyone "care that he's there?"  
 
@Mykhael said:

There really isn’t much difference between Panther and Namor except Panther is more realistic., what else is there.

Namor can't hold a book either so I don't get your point. I also don't see how Black Panther is more realistic either.
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#83 Posted by doomsilver (652 posts) - - Show Bio

I have never really liked him. I didn't understand why Storm married him. She had a cool relationship with Forge. He is cool on the Avengers show.

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#84 Posted by the_stegman (40368 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't hate him...I'm just indifferent to him, like baked potatoes, if it's there, I'll pay attention to it, but I'm not gonna go out of my way to find one.

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#85 Edited by Mykhael (71 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Mykhael said:

How often has the panther actually been a street level character?

Every issue of Black Panther he proves to be street level.

@Mykhael said:

traditional crime fighter because he isnt really ever is intent on fighting crime like other Marvel characters. I don't think there is anyone one thing

Black Panther doesn't often fight characters like Morlun,Doom,The Skrulls etc. His enemies are usually characters like Killmonger,Man-Ape,Kraven the Hunter,The KKK,those are street level enemies.

@Mykhael said:

that makes black panther hard to relate to, it's probably a number of different things so I can't place that at the feet of the concept of Wakanda.

I did say the concept of Wakanda makes Black Panther hard to relate to but that's only part of the reason his comics don't sell. I also mentioned his isolation.Wakanda is in Africa. They don't have a strong superhero base in Africa, Black Panther is all alone. The most important things that happen in the Marvel Universe for the last 5-6 years have been their events. Most of those events only have any significance to the United States, because that's where MOST of the superheroes are. So with Black Panther being the King of Wakanda, how much impact can\will he have in important events in the Marvel Universe?

@Mykhael said:

1. He hasn't the complete support and backing of Marvel

No, Black character does.

@Mykhael said:

2. Inconsistent quality of his stories

Very, True.

@Mykhael said:

3. People who feel like this: "I just don't care that he's there....I've tried reading several of his series and jst couldn't get into them so I ended up dropping them pretty quickly...maybe' 30 year old white guy from Pennsylvania it's just hard for me to relate to a lack guy from Africa who runs his own country....honestly I think that's

This proves my point. If mostly everything that matters in the Marvel Universe happens nowhere near Africa, how can a Wakandan superhero make viable sales competition for the more popular white male superheroes, when they are doing all the meaningful stuff in the US? Why would anyone "care that he's there?"

@Mykhael said:

There really isn’t much difference between Panther and Namor except Panther is more realistic., what else is there.

Namor can't hold a book either so I don't get your point. I also don't see how Black Panther is more realistic either.

The thing is I don't hear people say Namor was doomed from conception, or saying that Namor as a character doesn't work is hard to relate to because he's king. Yeah, he can't hold a book but he doesnt receive the same level of critism as BP.

Fighting street level villains from time to time doesn’t mean you BP is street level. Doom is a king, he fights street level but that’s not all he does, the same with Panther. No comic book character can realistically be expected to not fight street level villains just because he's a king. I don't think that’s an issue for most people, I think the race thing plays more of a role than him being a king. People can relate to characters of color like Luke Cage more because in real life they see people

like that but how many super genius African King heros do they see? I don't think fans who are critical have much of an issue with him being king. Like I said there are no shortage of reasons.

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#86 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mykhael said:

The thing is I don't hear people say Namor was doomed from conception, or saying that Namor as a character doesn't work is hard to relate to because he's king. Yeah, he can't hold a book but he doesnt receive the same level of critism as BP.

That's because Namor isn't as much like Black Panther as you think. Namor is a U.S. War hero. He fought along side Captain America. He's one of the flagship members of the Invaders. Namor is also Mutant and Atlantean, two races that are important to Marvel and have their attention, especially the mutants.
 
@Mykhael said:

Fighting street level villains from time to time doesn’t mean you BP is street level. Doom is a king, he fights street level but that’s not all he does, the same with Panther.

Black Panther is nothing like Doom. Black Panther consistently fights street level heroes and villains. Doom doesn't. Doom is a team buster. His main enemies are the Avengers and Fantastic Four. In a random encounter no street leveler would stand a chance against Doom.
 
@Mykhael said:

No comic book character can realistically be expected to not fight street level villains just because he's a king. 

He's the only one I can't think of that is both King and street level. The rest of Marvel's royalty are gods,aliens or high level superhumans. 
 
@Mykhael said:

I think the race thing plays more of a role than him being a king.

I don't.

@Mykhael said:

like that but how many super genius African King heros do they see? I don't think fans who are critical have much of an issue with him being king. Like I said there are no shortage of reasons.

Fans don't have to be critical of him being a king. It doesn't mean that it doesn't help them gloss over the book. He's not just a King, he's a king on a continent that Marvel has almost no activity on aside from anything dealing with him. It doesn't matter that he's black. Ka-Zar suffers from the same thing. Nothing that happens in the Savage Land mattered since Secret Invasion, that isolates Ka-Zar from the other heroes. I may never think "Blade isn't selling because he's a vampire hunter and vampires don't have much of a role in Marvel", but that doesn't mean it's not the reason I'm not reading Blade. What incentive would I have to care about Vampires, if Marvel doesn't?
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#87 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

Vance that's dishonest and wrong. He has also faced Doom, Black Dragon, Nightmare, Ironman [ in h2h], Mephisto, Zombie Skrulls, etc...and I bet the whole AvX and aftermath [Marvel Now] is likely to blow up in your face. He's not Street, street characters don't make "Shadow Physics"...peace

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#88 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

T'challa has saved the U.S and the world plenty of times! Including Avengers: Red Zone! And Namor has also out right attacked the U.S...NYC.

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#89 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:
Vance that's dishonest and wrong. He has also faced Doom, Black Dragon, Nightmare, Ironman [ in h2h], Mephisto, Zombie Skrulls, etc...and I bet the whole AvX and aftermath [Marvel Now] is likely to blow up in your face. He's not Street, street characters don't make "Shadow Physics"...peace
No, it's not dishonest or wrong. Those aren't the types of characters that Black Panther usually has issues with. He usually takes down criminals,henchmen and low level superhumans..which is the very definition of "street level". Killmonger is one of his most formidable villains and he doesn't have any powers. Characters who are not street level like Iron Man,Ms.Marvel,Namor,Hulk,Thor,wouldn't have a bit of trouble with Killmonger, he'd be dead in seconds.
 
@Umbraa said:
T'challa has saved the U.S and the world plenty of times! Including Avengers: Red Zone! 
Is this in response to me saying Namor is a war hero? Because I don't know how you can compare helping the U.S. win a major war that actually happened to anything Black Panther has done on U.S. soil. Namor is associated with an important moment in comics and history. Avengers: Red Zone is just another story arc.
 
@Umbraa said:
And Namor has also out right attacked the U.S...NYC.
So has the Hulk, but there is an explanation for it so..it's not what defines him as a hero.
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#90 Edited by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh so now saving them from a major terrorist attack doesn't count? Arc or not...it's the same thing, and that arc was taking a page from 911....and .Klaw isn't street level and thats his origin villain!...you bring up Killmonger and leave out that he fought his entire Army [ Death Regiment] dire wolves, dinosaurs, and he did have "powers" during Priest run...He has faced Ultron from his conception, including Ultrion unlimited where he engaged him in h2h.Supremacists are not street! Anubis isn't Street. [current] and he has faced Namor and Doom and those are not exception. Moses Magnum isn't street either...you are over stating things...citing the 70's "kkk" jungle action issues like that's all he faces! When he faces all sorts and types of villains! In fact to make him "street" they HAD TO strip him of his powers and Tech! That should tell you something...look at how he was totally stomping the hoods in Priest run! They were no threat...he's mind is super..he's a super genius...

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#91 Edited by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

"Yeah, the Panther is a great character and I am going to do a bit more with him. He's a secret city, science king, so -- kind of right in my wheel house. And I guess this is as good a place as any to talk about chronology. All the stuff I'm doing with him in "Fantastic Four" takes place before "AvX."*----Hickman* ...as we can see he's going to be written again by Hickman, likely in his Avengers, which isn't Street. Hickmen clearly does not view him as "Street"..because his mind is super. Sure his Above-Peak status with the herb is "street-level"..but his Tech and mind are not, add those to his physical prowess [which is street] and he's something else entirely. He owned two super-Skrulls like nothing, one of them had Asgardian powers and he beheaded him. He fought a alien were beast and owned it. Beat Loki [out smarted him], Strum Un Drang is hardly street, again he takes on Ironman a lot, has his own armors..etc. There is nothing really all that street, other then him taking on Street characters at times and above Street at times.

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#92 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

Oh so now saving them from a major terrorist attack doesn't count? Arc or not...it's the same thing, and that arc was taking a page from 911....and .Klaw isn't street level and thats his origin villain!...you bring up Killmonger and leave out that he fought his entire Army [ Death Regiment] dire wolves, dinosaurs, and he did have "powers" during Priest run...He has faced Ultron from his conception, including Ultrion unlimited where he engaged him in h2h.Supremacists are not street! Anubis isn't Street. [current] and he has faced Namor and Doom and those are not exception. Moses Magnum isn't street either...you are over stating things...citing the 70's "kkk" jungle action issues like that's all he faces! When he faces all sorts and types of villains! In fact to make him "street" they HAD TO strip him of his powers and Tech! That should tell you something...look at how he was totally stomping the hoods in Priest run! They were no threat...he's mind is super..he's a super genius...

No. It's not a moment in the characters history that people usually associate with Black Panther or the Avengers for that matter. Namor's involvement in World War II is part of his origin and Captain America's.It's one of the most important moments in his existence.I brought up Killmonger because he's Black Panther's most dominant reoccurring villain. The details of their fights are of no relevance nor is him having powers during Priest's run. Killmonger is a street level villain,that was the point. Shocker,Doc Ock,Hydro Man those are all street level villains having powers doesn't change that. 
 
You're still not grasping the concept of street level or consistency. Black Panther doesn't always fight characters like Doom,Namor,Ultron,Iron Man etc. Those instances are few and far between from his norm.If you read every Black Panther comic and take collect all the fight scenes, most of the time he's fighting street level characters. Villains like Moses Magnum and The Klaw fight a wide array of characters but they aren't more than a street level threat. Those aren't characters you need to call Iron Man,Ms.Marvel,Thor,or the Hulk in for.Spider-Man,Black Panther,Cap,or Daredevil,or Wolverine can handle it. They didn't have to take Black Panther's powers away to make him a street leveler. That's what he already was. It just happened to be that he lost his powers before he went to Hell's Kitchen. Being a super-genius doesn't exclude someone from being street level.Batman is a street level crime fighter + super genius.
 
 
@Umbraa said:

"Yeah, the Panther is a great character 

Indeed.  
 
@Umbraa said:

"Yeah, the Panther is a great character and I am going to do a bit more with him. He's a secret city, science king, so -- kind of right in my wheel house. And I guess this is as good a place as any to talk about chronology. All the stuff I'm doing with him in "Fantastic Four" takes place before "AvX."*----Hickman* ...as we can see he's going to be written again by Hickman, likely in his Avengers, which isn't Street. Hickmen clearly does not view him as "Street"..because his mind is super.

You can't compare how a character is used on a team to how he's used solo.
  
@Umbraa said:

He owned two super-Skrulls like nothing, one of them had Asgardian powers and he beheaded him. 

IIRC Those Skrulls could only use a limited amount of abilities at a time. Their durability was compromised. The Skrulls were an easy target for most characters they fought.

@Umbraa said:

Beat Loki [out smarted him],

Daredevil outsmarted the Grandmaster, one of the smartest beings in the Marvel Universe. He's still street level and not a genius. 
  
@Umbraa said:

again he takes on Ironman a lot, has his own armors..etc.

Every street leveler with their own comic has fought Iron Man and his armors aren't comparable to Tony's.

@Umbraa

said:

There is nothing really all that street, other then him taking on Street characters at times and above Street at times.

That's what ALL street levelers do.
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#93 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude Listen to what you are saying, you are not making any sense! I posted a quote from Hickman. Lol. You are saying he ONLY Fights street characters and I proved you wrong. How is it far and few In between? when Im pointing out things from his books! Make sense dude. I cited things from his two longest standing runs by Priest and Hudlin. I cited his 1988 title, where he fought a super team! Other then that it's Jungle Action where he solo'd a fricking army and Kirby short run! That's excluding the Avengers, Defenders and F4. Lol

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#94 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

Vol. 1 was 15 issues by Jack Kirby. It was sci-fi old school stuff. Vol. 2 by Peter B. Gillis and penciled by Denys Cowan where he faced the Panther God and the Supermecist! Vol. 3 Was Priest, 60 plus issues where he faced Mephisto, Black Dragon, Loki, Nightmare, Namor, Ironman, the Hulk, he also faced some "street" characters...but there was split. same with Vol. 4 Hudlin, Doom three times, fought space Skrulls, S.I, Ironman, etc...I love how you ignore that he jerked TWO SUPER SKRULLS AND NOTHING WAS DISRUPTED! You are saying I'm not grasping, but you are not grasping. He doesn't fit into your box..that's my point...he has fought both pretty evenly [ if you ignore the Avengers, Defenders and F4 stuff...Maberry run wasn't street, Liss run was forced street where that had to remove everything. He fought just as many NON street characters and more if you count the Avengers, Defenders and F4 stuff!

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#95 Posted by VenomousDragon (1084 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mercy_ said:

I don't care about him enough to hate him.

this

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#96 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

Dude Listen to what you are saying, you are not making any sense! I posted a quote from Hickman. Lol. You are saying he ONLY Fights street characters and I proved you wrong. How is it far and few In between? when Im pointing out things from his books! Make sense dude. I cited things from his two longest standing runs by Priest and Hudlin. I cited his 1988 title, where he fought a super team! Other then that it's Jungle Action where he solo'd a fricking army and Kirby short run! That's excluding the Avengers, Defenders and F4. Lol

I know what i'm saying and i'm right. Never once did I say, "Black Panther ONLY fights street level characters" in fact the very last quote in my previous post suggests that every street leveler at some point fights characters that aren't. The point I have been making is that Black Panther doesn't fight heroes & villains that aren't street level anymore often than anyone else that is under that same umbrella. I don't see what about my post doesn't make sense. You're mentioning Black Panther fighting an army in Jungle Action when half the time he was fighting common criminals and animals and when he did fight super-villains or other heroes almost none of them were above a street level threat. He fought Man-Ape,Killmonger,Venomm,Malice,Baron Macabre,King Cadaver,Lord Karnaj,Madame Slay,Wind Eagle, these are characters that are not only street level but for some of them they were created specifically for Black Panther's rouge gallery. In the 1988 title you keep referencing, the Supremacists are street level villains. They are low level superhumans. They are no stronger or no more powerful than any of Spider-Man's rouges and HE'S street level. 
 
@Umbraa said:

Vol. 1 was 15 issues by Jack Kirby. It was sci-fi old school stuff. 

Most of the actual villains you can pull out of that run were street level. 
 
@Umbraa said:

He doesn't fit into your box.

Yes, he does. 
 
@Umbraa said:

Vol. 3 Was Priest, 60 plus issues where he faced Mephisto, Black Dragon, Loki, Nightmare, Namor, Ironman, the Hulk, he also faced some "street" characters...but there was split. same with Vol. 4 Hudlin, Doom three times, fought space Skrulls, S.I, Ironman, etc...I love how you ignore that he jerked TWO SUPER SKRULLS AND NOTHING WAS DISRUPTED! 

There was a split but with non-street level characters, there isn't. Iron Man doesn't fight characters like Venomm,Nightshade,Kraven,& Killmonger. Black Panther fights those characters because they are viable competition for him.  
 
@Umbraa said:
 Liss run was forced street where that had to remove everything.
Everything wasn't removed. He still used tech in Liss' run and he only lost his physical stats. He didn't need to be depowered to take Daredevil's role because not only is it the second time he's posed as Daredevil, Iron Fist who probably has the same stats as BP with his powers has taken DD's role in Civil War.  

@Umbraa said:

 and more if you count the Avengers, Defenders and F4 stuff!

I don't because most of the time if a character is on a team with characters much more powerful than himself he's going to be helping to fight characters that are out of his league.
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#97 Edited by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

No Vance you are wrong. You keep talking about who's "out of his league" and that's stupid! You are wrong because Marvel doesn't agree with YOU. You brought up Jungle action when you brought up Killmonger. I just pointed out that he fought a army alone. Next tbe supremacist where not street level! There zero indication that they were "spiderman" level. All the guys you mention are characters from the freaking 70's! Get real dude. Look at the article where Hickman himself said that stuff is a different era and Marvel isn't using it! You ignore Klaw...you keep ignoring the rogue MOST tied to him! Listen to yourself, he can beat both! He's beaten ironman! He has beast non-street levelers ... He's beat all the non-street characters I mentioned, and I will make sure this thread stays bumbed moving forward so everyone can see how wrong you are. Next Liss removed all his tech and powers...please don't make me post links. He's says it himself. He called him a force of nature. You keep ignoring his technology! Why? Your issues is the whole "out of your league" nonsense...he's beaten Ironman how many times? IM has Ghost, Boomerrang, spymaster amongst others as villains who are "street" it's time for you to stop now. lol

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#98 Edited by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

“I absolutely love some chunks of what Christopher Priest did," Hickman says of that great series. "I thought Jason Aaron did strong work on his Secret Invasion issues. Heck, I can go through and pick out good things that everyone who's worked on the character has done. Certainly Reginald Hudlin, who set up most of the current status quo, and certainly David Liss, who just wrapped up the most recent run. But if you exclude the Silver and Bronze Age stuff - which, for me, was really a dissimilar time with wildly different expectations and parameters - and look only at modern runs of Black Panther appearances, it's obvious that we haven't nailed it like we want to.  By that, I mean the Black Panther should be huge, one of our bigger characters. Hopefully everything we're planning for this year can result in us achieving that.” {#Hickman#}--------------------notice what he's says. You are holding on to old crap from that era... which is like a Batman fan holding on to Adam West Batman. This Era he is clearly NOT street. Thus new villain is Anbus. NOT street because Liss has to strip him totally and have him make things from radio shack, while dealing with things and mental issues.. just to give a challenge. Otherwise it like the Client or the latter part of Liss run, the most dangerous man, where he stomps everyone the later half. He's really no different then Tony..just without the power suit. He's the weapon.

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#99 Posted by Rumble Man (11195 posts) - - Show Bio
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#100 Posted by Umbraa (920 posts) - - Show Bio

And Marvel totally hates all that stuff you mentioned. Question, isn't it Aldo "PIS" when a character is suppose to 3 steps ahead and he's not to help the Story? Thoughts?

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