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    Batman

    Character » Batman appears in 23535 issues.

    Bruce Wayne, who witnessed the murder of his billionaire parents as a child, swore to avenge their deaths. He trained extensively to achieve mental and physical perfection, mastering martial arts, detective skills, and criminal psychology. Costumed as a bat to prey on the fears of criminals, and utilizing a high-tech arsenal, he became the legendary Batman.

    Why isn't Jim Gordon critized for not killing the Joker?

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    Black_Arrow

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    #1  Edited By Black_Arrow

    Jim Gordon is the police commisioner and he has gone to war, he has killed people with his guns and he is one of the people that has been affected the most by the wraith of the Joker (his daughter shot and his bride killed) yet he never gets critized by this. Batman has stronger motives (the Death of his parents, etc) than Jim Gordon to not kill the Joker, the only motive Jim Gordon has is his belief in the law. I know that it's an essential part of both characters, but people always argue that Batman should be the one to kill the Joker, why?

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    Killermovies

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    AssertingValor

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    Joker is immortal b/c everyone refuses to kill him

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    @black_arrow: 9 times out of 10 when ever Gordon has come in to contact with the Joker it wouldn't have been illegal for him to shoot him.

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    Outside_85

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    Because he's a cop, not an executioner.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    Because people like to specifically blame Batman for not doing something even though the same argument should then logically be applies to numerous other characters.

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    Black_Arrow

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    @black_arrow: 9 times out of 10 when ever Gordon has come in to contact with the Joker it wouldn't have been illegal for him to shoot him.

    This is not my point, I know why Jim Gordon doesn't kill people like the Joker (because he believes in the law). But why people on this forum and others act like it's Batman's responsability to kill the Joker after all the atrocities he has done to him and to the people of his city when Jim Gordon also has as much resposability, after all He also considers Gotham, his city. Also I am pretty sure that helping a criminal is also against the law but Jim Gordon has done it multiple times.

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    Black_Arrow

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    Because he's a cop, not an executioner.

    Well Batman isn't an executioner either and yet some people argue that he should kill.

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    #9  Edited By Jonny_Anonymous

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @black_arrow: 9 times out of 10 when ever Gordon has come in to contact with the Joker it wouldn't have been illegal for him to shoot him.

    This is not my point, I know why Jim Gordon doesn't kill people like the Joker (because he believes in the law). But why people on this forum and others act like it's Batman's responsability to kill the Joker after all the atrocities he has done to him and to the people of his city when Jim Gordon also has as much resposability, after all He also considers Gotham, his city. Also I am pretty sure that helping a criminal is also against the law but Jim Gordon has done it multiple times.

    No I don't think you understood what I was saying. Most times Gordon has encountered the Joker he would have been well within his rights to shoot him.

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    Black_Arrow

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    @black_arrow said:
    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @black_arrow: 9 times out of 10 when ever Gordon has come in to contact with the Joker it wouldn't have been illegal for him to shoot him.

    This is not my point, I know why Jim Gordon doesn't kill people like the Joker (because he believes in the law). But why people on this forum and others act like it's Batman's responsability to kill the Joker after all the atrocities he has done to him and to the people of his city when Jim Gordon also has as much resposability, after all He also considers Gotham, his city. Also I am pretty sure that helping a criminal is also against the law but Jim Gordon has done it multiple times.

    No I don't think you understood what I was saying. Most times Gordon has encountered the Joker he would have been well within his rights to shoot him.

    Yeah I read it wrong I am sorry, well that gives him all the more justification to kill the Joker. The fact is that most people at the GCPD and Arkham could have killed the Joker but none of them have done it, so it really doesn't make sense to blame Batman for this.

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    TheBlueAngel93

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    #11  Edited By TheBlueAngel93

    Didn't he attempt to kill Joker not long ago in Scott Snyder's run?

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    Didn't he attempt to kill Joker not long ago in Scott Snyder's run?

    That he did. Shot him multiple times, straight to the chest in Endgame. Too bad Joker was hopped up on Dionesium. Was somewhat satisfactory to see it bring Jim to tears as for a brief second he believed the nightmare was finally over.

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    BatmanPlusJay

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    #13  Edited By BatmanPlusJay

    @black_arrow: There's no excuse as to why Gordon isn't killing Joker. Every time Batman brought the Joker in, he got something like a life sentence. Why doesn't he have a death sentence? The guy goes on mass murders and even controls like 90% of the gangs. Why df isn't he on a death sentence?

    But I agree though. People come off like it's Batman's responsibility for everything, like he even does the police's job when he doesn't. No, Batman doesn't kill but that doesn't mean the GCPD stops doing their job. If Joker doesn't EVER get a death sentence, then what could you POSSIBLY have to do to get one?

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    joshmightbe

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    I still love the fact that the only comic character that has actually scared the Joker was the Punisher. (Yes, I know crossovers aren't cannon.) See Joker took one look in Frank's eyes and knew he'd do it and not even feel a little bad about it.

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    dernman

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    @joshmightbe: Neron scared the Joker and it made a bit more sense. Punisher scaring Joker is a bit of WIS.

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    Jeremy1989

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    #16  Edited By Jeremy1989

    I don't know. Maybe both him and Batman get a kick of this.

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    joshmightbe

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    @dernman: I think it made sense that Frank scared him, just not in the way the writer intended. See with Batman, or Gordon, it'd actually cause them problems if they killed him. For Frank, its Tuesday and he won't give Joker a second thought after. So I do think Joker would be bothered by being killed by someone who it would mean literally nothing to.

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    dernman

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    @dernman: I think it made sense that Frank scared him, just not in the way the writer intended. See with Batman, or Gordon, it'd actually cause them problems if they killed him. For Frank, its Tuesday and he won't give Joker a second thought after. So I do think Joker would be bothered by being killed by someone who it would mean literally nothing to.

    I don't think the Joker would be bothered by it. I don't see Joker fearing death. He's a nut job and it's not like he's not been up against others like that. It's not like the criminals he hangs out with with have issues with popping him off if he got in their way.

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    AllStarSuperman

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    Because, I feel like if he killed the Joker now. It'd be more about revenge then actual justice.

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    HeroUp2112

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    The only reason I can think that Joker doesn't get the Death Penalty is that either

    1. The state Gotham City is in doesn't HAVE the death penalty law on their books
    2. They consider him mentally incompetent and that's why he's always put in Arkham and not Black Gate
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    Black_Arrow

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    The only reason I can think that Joker doesn't get the Death Penalty is that either

    1. The state Gotham City is in doesn't HAVE the death penalty law on their books
    2. They consider him mentally incompetent and that's why he's always put in Arkham and not Black Gate

    Your second option is the right one, Gotham (Pre new 52) has a death penalty but they always consider him mentally incompetent, there is a comic where someone frames the Joker in a way that it is convincing (I don't remember the details too well) that the Joker is actually mentally sane, so he gets charged to the death penalty but well Batman says that it is unfair that the real killer gets free, so he finds the man who framed the Joker and Joker's execution is stopped at the right moment.

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    Outside_85

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    @outside_85 said:

    Because he's a cop, not an executioner.

    Well Batman isn't an executioner either and yet some people argue that he should kill.

    I would say it makes more sense if Batman killed him, since Batman is a vigilante, he only follows his own laws and rules while Gordon and all the other cops have a defined set of rules they have to work by.

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    HeroUp2112

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    @black_arrow: Huh. No foolin'....that IS a pretty good story idea actually

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    redbird3rdboywonder

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    Plot reasons

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    @black_arrow said:
    @outside_85 said:

    Because he's a cop, not an executioner.

    Well Batman isn't an executioner either and yet some people argue that he should kill.

    I would say it makes more sense if Batman killed him, since Batman is a vigilante, he only follows his own laws and rules while Gordon and all the other cops have a defined set of rules they have to work by.

    It makes sense that Batman doesn't kill him beacuse Batman is insane. Gordon is well within his rights to shoot the Joker and he would still be lawfully just.

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    Outside_85

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    @outside_85 said:
    @black_arrow said:
    @outside_85 said:

    Because he's a cop, not an executioner.

    Well Batman isn't an executioner either and yet some people argue that he should kill.

    I would say it makes more sense if Batman killed him, since Batman is a vigilante, he only follows his own laws and rules while Gordon and all the other cops have a defined set of rules they have to work by.

    It makes sense that Batman doesn't kill him beacuse Batman is insane.

    Gordon is well within his rights to shoot the Joker and he would still be lawfully just.

    Is he? Well, thats new. And no it doesn't really, unless you are saying the insanity is the 'no kill' rule.

    Only if the Joker attacks him. He's not allowed to drag him out behind the GCDP HQ and blow his head off after Batman has handed him over.

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    @jonny_anonymous said:
    @outside_85 said:
    @black_arrow said:
    @outside_85 said:

    Because he's a cop, not an executioner.

    Well Batman isn't an executioner either and yet some people argue that he should kill.

    I would say it makes more sense if Batman killed him, since Batman is a vigilante, he only follows his own laws and rules while Gordon and all the other cops have a defined set of rules they have to work by.

    It makes sense that Batman doesn't kill him beacuse Batman is insane.

    Gordon is well within his rights to shoot the Joker and he would still be lawfully just.

    Is he? Well, thats new. And no it doesn't really, unless you are saying the insanity is the 'no kill' rule.

    Only if the Joker attacks him. He's not allowed to drag him out behind the GCDP HQ and blow his head off after Batman has handed him over.

    Well yeah, I mean half of Batman stories are pointing out that he's just insane as the people he fights against.

    If a person is putting you or the people around you in imminent threat of violence or bodily harm then you are legally justified to shoot that person dead. This is the law for every person, civilian or not. The Joker automatically qualifies for this law being that he is an escaped convict and even if he wasn't he has never made an appearance where he hasn't intended violence anyway. Also the Line In The Sand law is just another addon wherein Gordon (or anybody for that matter) could have just shot the Joker just for being in there presence.

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    lordraiden

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    Because not only is he a cop, he's the police commissioner? Kinda defeats the purpose of his position and employment as a cop, more specifically the commissioner. As the commish, he has to look out for more than just himself, but the reputation of the GCPD and all the men and women that work under him.

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    joshmightbe

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    @dernman: Its not that he was afraid of death, it was more the thought that his death would be ordinary. Frank wouldn't be killing him because he broke him or as a grand finish, he'd just kill him and forget about him just because thats what Frank does.

    I do agree that Joker doesn't fear death but mundanity is just unacceptable to him.

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    Outside_85

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    Well yeah, I mean half of Batman stories are pointing out that he's just insane as the people he fights against.

    If a person is putting you or the people around you in imminent threat of violence or bodily harm then you are legally justified to shoot that person dead. This is the law for every person, civilian or not. The Joker automatically qualifies for this law being that he is an escaped convict and even if he wasn't he has never made an appearance where he hasn't intended violence anyway. Also the Line In The Sand law is just another addon wherein Gordon (or anybody for that matter) could have just shot the Joker just for being in there presence.

    Half his Joker-stories perhaps, but thats part of the Joker view of Batman... and everyone else for that matter.

    But he doesn't qualify for it while he's either already handcuffed, in a cell or otherwise incapacitated. And thats kinda my point, because usually it's not Gordon or the GCPD who apprehend the Joker, it's Batman who hands him over to them. Otherwise your argument sounds like the police is legally allowed to shoot and kill a prisoner in a cell for shouting threats and insults at a passing officer.

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    @jonny_anonymous said:

    Well yeah, I mean half of Batman stories are pointing out that he's just insane as the people he fights against.

    If a person is putting you or the people around you in imminent threat of violence or bodily harm then you are legally justified to shoot that person dead. This is the law for every person, civilian or not. The Joker automatically qualifies for this law being that he is an escaped convict and even if he wasn't he has never made an appearance where he hasn't intended violence anyway. Also the Line In The Sand law is just another addon wherein Gordon (or anybody for that matter) could have just shot the Joker just for being in there presence.

    Half his Joker-stories perhaps, but thats part of the Joker view of Batman... and everyone else for that matter.

    But he doesn't qualify for it while he's either already handcuffed, in a cell or otherwise incapacitated. And thats kinda my point, because usually it's not Gordon or the GCPD who apprehend the Joker, it's Batman who hands him over to them. Otherwise your argument sounds like the police is legally allowed to shoot and kill a prisoner in a cell for shouting threats and insults at a passing officer.

    It's not just the Joker's point of view, it's a pretty well worn trope. Batman would be legally qualified as insane, the Joker would not.

    I'm not saying shooting him in a cell is legal but the vast majority of the Jokers appearances in comics are of him at large. Anytime anybody comes in to contact with him they are well within their legal rights to kill him.

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    Outside_85

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    It's not just the Joker's point of view, it's a pretty well worn trope. Batman would be legally qualified as insane, the Joker would not.

    I'm not saying shooting him in a cell is legal but the vast majority of the Jokers appearances in comics are of him at large. Anytime anybody comes in to contact with him they are well within their legal rights to kill him.

    Most people just view him as a freak in a costume, the Joker considers everyone one bad day away from being like him, and that Batman is like him but thinks he's dillusional in the way that he thinks he's sane. Jokers insanity however is whats keeping him in Arkham and not Blackgate and out of the electric chair.

    That is true, but in by far the most cases when the Joker confronts anyone, it is on his terms; like Batman being tied up, the lights are wobbly and quite often there's a hostage involved, there are normally reasons why the GCPD dont just start shooting at him.

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    infantfinite128

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    I always disagree with people that Batman should kill the Joker, but it makes absolutely no sense why no one else has. Heck, the amount of explosions that he's been in should have killed him. Joker hangs around because of sales. There's no in universe reason for him and a lot of villains to be alive. In such a corrupt city, you'd think one ordinary citizen or cop would take a bomb to Arkham.

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    joshmightbe

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    Batman not killing Joker has never bothered me what gets me is all those times Batman has actually stopped the Joker from being killed.

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    @jonny_anonymous said:

    It's not just the Joker's point of view, it's a pretty well worn trope. Batman would be legally qualified as insane, the Joker would not.

    I'm not saying shooting him in a cell is legal but the vast majority of the Jokers appearances in comics are of him at large. Anytime anybody comes in to contact with him they are well within their legal rights to kill him.

    Most people just view him as a freak in a costume, the Joker considers everyone one bad day away from being like him, and that Batman is like him but thinks he's dillusional in the way that he thinks he's sane. Jokers insanity however is whats keeping him in Arkham and not Blackgate and out of the electric chair.

    That is true, but in by far the most cases when the Joker confronts anyone, it is on his terms; like Batman being tied up, the lights are wobbly and quite often there's a hostage involved, there are normally reasons why the GCPD dont just start shooting at him.

    Joker is out to prove that everybody is a bad day away from being insane. But not Batman beacuse Batman is already insane, he already had his one bad day. That's why he was laughing at the end of the Killing Joke, beacuse he got the joke.

    For someone to be ruled criminally insane by a court of law they have to be so deluded that they are incapable of rational judgment when committing a crime, the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Both of these describe Batman, neither describe the Joker. When Batman was young he watched both his parents die and suffered a mental break beacuse of it. He then traveled the world training beacuse he wanted to wage a "one man war on crime". Then one day he seen a bat and exclaimed loudly to nobody in particular "Yes father, I shall become a bat". From then on he went out every night dressed as a bat and punches poor people in his war on crime and actually believing that not only was he helping but that he could win. Going out, punching someone, putting them in jail, them breaking out and repeating it every day for the rest of your life and still believing you are winning is the actions of a mad man. Every time someone questions Bruce on it he always rationalises it to himself but it never makes any sense, even when he has total mental breaks like the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh. There are hundreds of different ways Bruce Wayne (a personality that the Batman doesn't recognise as real btw) could help make Gotham a safer place but instead he would rather punch people at night dressed as a bat.

    The Joker on the other hand knows exactly what he is doing at any given time. He's not deluded. He's never had a problem with discerning what is and isn't reality and he is fully capable of rational judgment. He's never tried to excuse any of his criminal acts beacuse he knows full well how evil they are and they are always planned. The Joker has never actually been diagnosed with any mental illness, in fact in Arkham: A Serious House On A Serious Earth it's shown that the Joker is in fact completely sane. His perception of reality is so clear he is able to see the world as it truly is without any preconceived notions and just reflects that chaotic absurdity back at it. He's cruel, unpredictable and sadistic extensionally nihilistic but it's not delusions, it's just pure reality.

    Batman is on a blind crusade to impossibly impose order on something that is inherently chaotic and truly believes that he is doing it the most efficient way possible and is winning.

    The Joker recognises that the universe is a dark and uncaring place that could kill us all without acknowledgment and that none of our valuse and morals actually mean anything and that it's absurd to think that they do.

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    Black_Arrow

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    @black_arrow said:
    @outside_85 said:

    Because he's a cop, not an executioner.

    Well Batman isn't an executioner either and yet some people argue that he should kill.

    I would say it makes more sense if Batman killed him, since Batman is a vigilante, he only follows his own laws and rules while Gordon and all the other cops have a defined set of rules they have to work by.

    Well Batman also has a set of rules he works by and to him they are more sacred than the law is to most cops in Gotham (after all eventhrough some of them are clean, there are a few dirty cops). Also I think that Jim Gordon has broken those rules by aiding a criminal.

    Jim Gordon not only doesn't want to kill the Joker even if it was on a legal way but he also doesn't want Batman to do it (in the Killing joke and Batman hush). So really he is also responsible of why Batman hasn't killed the Joker already (by reminding him of his morality and by saying that if he crosses that line he would hunt him down).

    Because not only is he a cop, he's the police commissioner? Kinda defeats the purpose of his position and employment as a cop, more specifically the commissioner. As the commish, he has to look out for more than just himself, but the reputation of the GCPD and all the men and women that work under him.

    Well he already does a pretty shitty job at that, in Pre New 52 the GCPD was well known to be useless because it depended in a vigilante to do their jobs. During No man's Land Jim gordon decided to stay on Gotham not only because he wanted to protect it but because no other police department would take a commisioner that depended in vigilante. He teams up with Batman because he thinks that he is good for the city, eventhrough he has to bend the laws to work him, some would argue that killing the Joker would bring a lot of good to the city but well even Gordon has limits on this regard.

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    Outside_85

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    Well Batman also has a set of rules he works by and to him they are more sacred than the law is to most cops in Gotham (after all eventhrough some of them are clean, there are a few dirty cops). Also I think that Jim Gordon has broken those rules by aiding a criminal.

    Jim Gordon not only doesn't want to kill the Joker even if it was on a legal way but he also doesn't want Batman to do it (in the Killing joke and Batman hush). So really he is also responsible of why Batman hasn't killed the Joker already (by reminding him of his morality and by saying that if he crosses that line he would hunt him down).

    That is perhaps true, but the thing is that Bruce could wake up one morning and just change those rules as he sees fit while Gordon cant.

    Well in Killing Joke there is a profound point in Joker not getting killed by either Gordon or Batman, simply because doing so would have meant the Joker won, he managed to drag them down to his level.

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    dernman

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    #38  Edited By dernman

    @joshmightbe said:

    @dernman: Its not that he was afraid of death, it was more the thought that his death would be ordinary. Frank wouldn't be killing him because he broke him or as a grand finish, he'd just kill him and forget about him just because thats what Frank does.

    I do agree that Joker doesn't fear death but mundanity is just unacceptable to him.

    I see what you're saying but I still don't see him being afraid. Sure it would get his attention and maybe change his tactics. He would adapt, change and play a whole different game with Punisher. Fear I believe is a not applicable quantity to him. Also I could see Joker finding it funny that he does die that way. Like a joke on himself.

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    Shadowmaster91

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    To not create a precedent.

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    Aahz

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    #40  Edited By Aahz

    He could have killed him in Noman's Land after Joker killed Sarah Essen, but he only crippled him (even if the writers completely forgot about it afterwards).

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    bob74h

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    #41  Edited By bob74h

    Because gordon likely see it as him being no better then the joker

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