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    Batman

    Character » Batman appears in 23537 issues.

    Bruce Wayne, who witnessed the murder of his billionaire parents as a child, swore to avenge their deaths. He trained extensively to achieve mental and physical perfection, mastering martial arts, detective skills, and criminal psychology. Costumed as a bat to prey on the fears of criminals, and utilizing a high-tech arsenal, he became the legendary Batman.

    Which "Rebirth" title is better?

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    the_red_viper

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    #1  Edited By the_red_viper  Moderator

    "Batman" or "Detective Comics"? Which has the better villains (and allies), better artwork, and better writing?

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    entropy_aegis

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    Villains= Batman, no contest. Bane mops the floor with all Tec villains put together.

    Allies= Tec easily but this is because King has made no effort. You'd think the writer of Grayson and Robin War would have involved Dick and Damian. All we have is Duke, Gotham Girl. Selina by herself isn't enough.

    Artwork= Batman easily

    Writing= Batman, despite wonky execution the ideas are still original and Batman aint a jobber.

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    HankScorpio

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    Aquaman and Hal Jordan and the GLC.

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    the_red_viper

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    #5 the_red_viper  Moderator

    @entropy_aegis: So which would be better to read? I'm planning to buy one of them soon.

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    entropy_aegis

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    @entropy_aegis: So which would be better to read? I'm planning to buy one of them soon.

    Tec started off stronger but has gone completely downhill. The writer has a few story telling devices that he utilizes every single time. Batman is flawed too and frustrating but it got better and atleast the writer doesn't repeat the same predictable ticks every single time. Its also more consistent art wise because a single artist completes his arc before the next one arrives.

    The Tec writers story devices are:

    Take one character and make that character a chosen one. This character will now be God.

    Humiliate Batman again and again as part of the chosen one's arc

    Subject characters to forced drama, one second they'll hugging each other next they'll be hitting each other. As it is Batman is the one who is on the receiving end of low blows.

    A secret organization that no one ever knows about, usually said organization is looking to recruit/corrupt or is affiliated in some manner to the chosen one.

    Secrets from the past keep popping up to generate drama in the present.

    Characters exist in a single setting or are defined by one thing. See Clayface wants to be good, cue in a miserable expression on his face all the time and him constantly acting all innocent and cuddly. There's a cocky tech guy who does um cocky tech work( Red Robin/Batwing). Cassandra shows up for kung fu poses in fights, Kate is leader cause military background etc. You get the point, all one dimensional characters which the writer tries to hide by the use of forced conflict that I mentioned.

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    TDK_1997

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    To be honest they are fairly equal in my eyes. One started off stronger('Tec) while the other actually has remained all around the same but is killing it with the last arc. Generally speaking, the ideas that King has are better but he just doesn't know how to execute them properly but I will still give points to his book rather than Tynion.

    The Colony was a great arc, even though it was really cliche and the finale was disappointing as hell but it was still a good start whatsoever. However, since then, Tynion is trying to murder his own book.

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    Aahz

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    #8  Edited By Aahz

    I'm tempted to say Nightwing, out of the bimonthly Batman series i was imo so far the strongest.

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    Black_Arrow

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    @tdk_1997 said:

    To be honest they are fairly equal in my eyes. One started off stronger('Tec) while the other actually has remained all around the same but is killing it with the last arc. Generally speaking, the ideas that King has are better but he just doesn't know how to execute them properly but I will still give points to his book rather than Tynion.

    The Colony was a great arc, even though it was really cliche and the finale was disappointing as hell but it was still a good start whatsoever. However, since then, Tynion is trying to murder his own book.

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    the_red_viper

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    #10  Edited By the_red_viper  Moderator
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    JamesWayne

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    @entropy_aegis: Thank you! I agree, I still think Detective is good, it gives forgotten characters a chance to shine and shows readers why they're special in the first place, but why the constant Batman comparisons? Why make Ra's a loser version of his own League ( I still think Ra's is a bigger global threat, but why even include this part)?. Also it's frustrating to know Tynion's going to do it all over again with Azrael, and again when Tim comes back.

    I really like the introspective Batman King is giving us, how he depicts Bruce as a strategist is a bit weird (it's basically him getting up over and over after getting pummeled) but you could at least tell that he care's for the character and what the character represents. Tynion uses Bruce as a stepping stone for the sole purpose of "Oh No! Batman couldn't do it! Who can...".

    The only point I wouldn't agree with with what you said is that the Tec team fights amongst themselves. Spoiler did that, cause reasons (the team was fighting a group of terrorists and she thought now would be the best time to make her grievances known), but Cass didn't. In my view Cass and Bruce were "conversing" Bruce actually said he won't fight back because he believes in Cassandra Cain and not Orphan. I actually liked that moment. I like that Bruce is kinder here, it's just that he's so incompetent too.

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    Bat_Girl_CC

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    Detective Comics it's all around way better than Batman, no contest...Detective Comics vs Nightwing (which was a very good surprise on Rebirth, very good book) is a more fair comparisson, because Batman really is mediocre.

    I've said it here many times, and i'm going to say it again, Tom King might be one the best writters on DC right now, but he clearly isn't a writter for Batman or a bat-book for that matter, (Grayson's goodness was probably thanks to Tim Seeley, mostly), Tom King doesn't know or get Batman and the same goes for many other bat-characters, and using cool and stablished characters on his stories like Bane and others won't make it better because he can't write them decently to save his life...i mean, when James Tynion manages to use a villain (Clayface) and make him more compelling than the "heros" on Tom King's Batman, you just know the Batman-writter is doing a bad job...

    Btw, Detective Comis hasn't really dropped much in quality, the problem is, the majority of the bat-fanbase are primarily Batman-fans, and Batman has not shined alot on Detective Comics so Batman-fans get angry at Tynion...but the thing is with the current bat-team on Detective Comics its hard for Batman to shine much amoung them...let's see: Batman / Batwoman / Cassandra Cain / Batwing / Azrael / Clayface...pretty much a "super"-bat-team or a all-star-bat-team...it's hard for Batman to get noticed on this book for his fighting skills when they already have Cassandra Cain, plus, besides her on most battles they have fricking Azrael and Clayface...Batman has had at least 2 very smart moments on this book so far, but they were pretty much overshadowed by what Tim Drake has pulled off, and even Steph, or Luke, because this team already has 3 genius-level/near-genius-level intelect characters...and it's hard for Batman to shine as leader, because DC is overall pushing Batwoman and on this book she's being pushed as the best leader there is...so...yeah...And yes, on a book with a team like this PLOT take s a key role in the quality of the stories, and yes a good writter should be able to still pull it off and manage to give everyone their fair share of spot-light and good moments, but when you have a team like this its not easy, and for the most part i'd say that Tynion has been doing a fairly good job...also, its important to notice that Tynion is still doing a character-centric arc for each member of the team, character-centric-arcs are the hardest to give focus to everyone...but when its over, the real fun will begin, with stories focusing on all members at once as a team, as far as overall writting for this book goes i'd say that the best is yet to come on Detective Comics.

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    Bat_Girl_CC

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    DC. The Button storyline aside, DC has the main Batman title beat by miles.

    This.

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    JamesWayne

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    @bat_girl_cc: I agree that plot plays a big role. But this is Batman, there's no way he should have trouble shining compared to this cast. Fighting alone, with a combination of skills and gadgets he's beaten/done well against every person you just mentioned. In terms of intelligence, how could Batman be outdone by Steph? Tim has never been so definitively over intelligent when compared to Batman except for when Tynion writes him. Bruces capabilities in other books puts anything he's done here, or other characters have done here to shame. I can't comment on Luke because I didn't read his series. This is all an issue of plot and story. It's not his story, Tynion down plays him consistently. To make other's look better. The other characters are talented, pure h2h Cass is better, Azrael is more powerful, etc, but none of them have come close to functioning on the level Bruce does, not even Tynion's uber powerful Tim. It's only here where Bruce is nothing but a stepping stone for others. And I find it particularly frustrating because as you said, besides this fact the book is so well written. But as a primarily Batman fan, I don't know if I will continue with this book for much longer, and if someone is looking to learn more about Batman, as a character, what he represents and what he could do, this is NOT the book to read.

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    entropy_aegis

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    @entropy_aegis: Thank you! I agree, I still think Detective is good, it gives forgotten characters a chance to shine and shows readers why they're special in the first place, but why the constant Batman comparisons? Why make Ra's a loser version of his own League ( I still think Ra's is a bigger global threat, but why even include this part)?. Also it's frustrating to know Tynion's going to do it all over again with Azrael, and again when Tim comes back.

    I really like the introspective Batman King is giving us, how he depicts Bruce as a strategist is a bit weird (it's basically him getting up over and over after getting pummeled) but you could at least tell that he care's for the character and what the character represents. Tynion uses Bruce as a stepping stone for the sole purpose of "Oh No! Batman couldn't do it! Who can...".

    The only point I wouldn't agree with with what you said is that the Tec team fights amongst themselves. Spoiler did that, cause reasons (the team was fighting a group of terrorists and she thought now would be the best time to make her grievances known), but Cass didn't. In my view Cass and Bruce were "conversing" Bruce actually said he won't fight back because he believes in Cassandra Cain and not Orphan. I actually liked that moment. I like that Bruce is kinder here, it's just that he's so incompetent too.

    Its not just Batman, this arc doesn't even bother to take ANY character in to account. If it was just Cass in a Cass solo book it would have been acceptable but not great either because from a Cass standpoint all these ideas have ALREADY been used.

    Tynion however has become so complacent that its shocking. The LOS is literally just a normal ninja group, did Tynion forget that the Bat team had Clayface, Batwing and Azrael? how does a ninja fight characters like these? nope he didn't bother, things just happened. Also how does a ninja group that prefers to stick to the shadows and use swords end up with a nuke? you'd think they'd first be able to afford guns. This whole arc is dismal, its just a collection of cliches with no regard to tone, consistency or any characters involved. Tynion just had Cass vs Shiva moments in his head, everything else is just him throwing random crap at the wall (the frame up too).

    Shiva herself is dismally written, this has to be some of the poorest characterization of her ever. He's just making her tough to overcompensate for the crap he wrote in Red Hood, her personality is zero. My advice to Tynion, please never ever bother with the LOA/LOS ever again. Easily his 2 worst works involve them.

    As for Ra's, it doesn't matter. He was the villain of ASB, Teen Titans and Trinity in the last few months. His Demons Fist group alone would annihilate the LOS. Heck Nightstorm and Stone solo.

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    Aahz

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    As for Ra's, it doesn't matter. He was the villain of ASB, Teen Titans and Trinity in the last few months.

    Thats also somethings that really annoys me about the current comics. It seems that hardly any writer seems to check the last appearances of the villains they are using or if the villain is currently used somewhere else.

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    Bat_Girl_CC

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    #17  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

    @jameswayne said:

    @bat_girl_cc: I agree that plot plays a big role. But this is Batman, there's no way he should have trouble shining compared to this cast. Fighting alone, with a combination of skills and gadgets he's beaten/done well against every person you just mentioned. In terms of intelligence, how could Batman be outdone by Steph? Tim has never been so definitively over intelligent when compared to Batman except for when Tynion writes him. Bruces capabilities in other books puts anything he's done here, or other characters have done here to shame. I can't comment on Luke because I didn't read his series. This is all an issue of plot and story. It's not his story, Tynion down plays him consistently. To make other's look better. The other characters are talented, pure h2h Cass is better, Azrael is more powerful, etc, but none of them have come close to functioning on the level Bruce does, not even Tynion's uber powerful Tim. It's only here where Bruce is nothing but a stepping stone for others. And I find it particularly frustrating because as you said, besides this fact the book is so well written. But as a primarily Batman fan, I don't know if I will continue with this book for much longer, and if someone is looking to learn more about Batman, as a character, what he represents and what he could do, this is NOT the book to read.

    - Steph has been "amped" on this new continuity smarts and tech-wise, she's no longer just a normal girl living amazing experiences and trying to prove herself in the process, she's a near-genius level intelect character, now, and that's good and bad, but the point is she managed to one button TKO the whole team in 2 pages...although the whole team was holding-back on her, i mean no-one actually wantted to hurt Steph there, but its still crazy-impressive when you think about it...she said that she didn't knew how to take down Bruce, but that was plot-driven, heck taking the others out quickly was plot-driven, so that Tynion could have Steph and Bruce having that conversation that they had after, and Steph could get all of those things out of her system, so to speak.

    - This, as oposed to the Batman title, is a team-book, which means that it will try to focus on several members, which means that in comparisson to the Batman title Bruce would never shine as much here as he does on his own title, from the get go...the situation gets worse for him here because as i said early this is no regular bat-team, its a super-bat-team, and even worse for Bruce because not only does everybody brings something different and unique to the table, everyone here is the best/one of the best at something different, which leaves very little room for Bruce to shine on a normal basis...now, with that said, at this point its being more difficult for Tynion to give Batman justice so to speak, because he's still doing one character centric arc for each member of the team, once its over, i fully belive that Bruce will get more and better moments on this book, but for now it is what it is...and next it's a Azrael character-centric-arc, so expect more of the same...but it should be noted, that so far Bruce is the only character here that gets to be the second most important character on all character-centric-arc's, he is yet to get his own character centric arc but he has "shined" more than everyone else on each arc save for the character that each arc was focusing on...so when all character centric arcs are over, i'd say that it will be safe to say that Bruce got the better of it.

    - I'm only worried for "Dark Days" or "Metal" or whatever the next big event will be called on the summer, because it will most likely derail the story...besides, according to the solicitations it will be serve mainly as yet another "attempt" of making Duke Thomas seem important to the bat-family by Scott Snyder...i'm not even sure i the Tec' team members will have a important role on this event or not, but probably not.

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    JamesWayne

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    @entropy_aegis: I actually think Clayface is the most baffling. He should have just ended this arc after the first issue. As for Shiva, apparently there will be more explanation of her motives in the final issue. I think the main issue here is the character centered arcs, as long as those are happening, every other character, from the direct batman comparisons to Luke just staring while someone impales him is going to be written poorly for the sake of story, and until after Tim gets back, I don't see that changing. Which is a shame, because the first arc, while it was Tim focused, was not nearly as character centered as the others and it was really good, at least in my opinion.

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    JamesWayne

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    @bat_girl_cc: I don't think you have to worry about derailment. If they tie in, it I think it would be organic seeing as Tynion is writing the preludes. I'm actually looking forward to those issues because they won't be character centric, and bruce will probably be gone from the book during that time. That means we will get a story without direct, useless and overdone batman comparisons and without every other character looking like fools except for the one specific character Tynion chooses to highlight. Because Clayface and Azrael by themselves should have been able to handle everything this arc has thrown at the team by themselves.

    And although I seem to complain a lot about this book, I actually don't think it's a bad book. I like the team aspect, and I like each character's personality, I just believe Tynion could do a better job than making everyone look ridiculous constantly and constantly putting down batman. Honestly, how many times in this arc alone has it been shown either verbally or through feats that Batman isn't up to snuff? And if you look at the preview for 956, he's doing it again, Shiva seems to be about to kill him. I'm betting Cass intervenes and beats her. Why even have that scene? Hasn't there been enough of that? Tynion's done better (first arc) and I hope he could again.

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    JamesWayne

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    #20  Edited By JamesWayne

    @aahz: I think the biggest offender of this currently is actually Thanos in Marvel. Isn't the guy supposed to be in two separate prisons while going on space adventures at the same time? Writers should communicate more. Or you know, don't let Bendis write Thanos.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    I've found myself enjoying Nightwing far more than either Batman or Detective.

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    Aahz

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    @aahz: I think the biggest offender of this currently is actually Thanos in Marvel. Isn't the guy supposed to be in two separate prisons while going on space adventures at the same time? Writers should communicate more. Or you know, don't let Bendis write Thanos.

    I don't follow Marvel, but in the current continuity Ras and the League are a total mess imo. You can do stuff like this with smaller villains but with Batmans A-list villains they really need to do better.

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    Rurgandy

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    "Batman" or "Detective Comics"? Which has the better villains (and allies), better artwork, and better writing?

    Batman by far. Detective Comics is a cliche-ridden fan appeasement book.

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    JamesWayne

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    Just read the most recent issue of Detective. Did NOT like it. Usually my complaints are about how Tynion focuses on one character at the expense and flat out detriment of all others. That kind of happens here, no other character besides Cass has anything to do and the reader is left again with the question "what was the point of all this". I mean Cass essentially just soloed everything. But more than that, the black eyes were never addressed, the way the actually took down clayface was never addressed. The colony was just page filler because they did NOTHING in the end. There' a Deus Ex Machina that appears at the end and literally fixes everything right away. The awesome cass and shiva fight I was looking forward to? Two pages, it's like Cass was in a shonen anime and as soon as she decided to try hard there was no threat. This storyline was essentially Shiva and fodder ninjas trying to be written as bigger threats than they had any reason to be. Not only that but through the conclusion we see that the conclusion itself and past issues were just set ups for future storylines. I would have loved this if it was half or a third as long with just Cass and Shiva. It really didn't need to be so forcibly drawn out, the threat didn't warrant it at all.

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    the_red_viper

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    #25 the_red_viper  Moderator

    @rurgandy said:
    @the_red_viper said:

    "Batman" or "Detective Comics"? Which has the better villains (and allies), better artwork, and better writing?

    Batman by far. Detective Comics is a cliche-ridden fan appeasement book.

    Does it give me all the required background for "The Button"? Or is it a tie-in that requires reading additional titles?

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    Black_Arrow

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    #26  Edited By Black_Arrow

    @the_red_viper said:
    @rurgandy said:
    @the_red_viper said:

    "Batman" or "Detective Comics"? Which has the better villains (and allies), better artwork, and better writing?

    Batman by far. Detective Comics is a cliche-ridden fan appeasement book.

    Does it give me all the required background for "The Button"? Or is it a tie-in that requires reading additional titles?

    It gives you little background for The Button. For that story you just have to read, Flashpoint, DC universe special Rebirth and Flash: Rebirth (the one shot).

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    the_red_viper

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    #27 the_red_viper  Moderator

    @black_arrow: You mean the old Flash: Rebirth by Geoff Johns?

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    entropy_aegis

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    @the_red_viper: Batman, it never reached the awfulness of the League of Shadows.

    Just read the most recent issue of Detective. Did NOT like it. Usually my complaints are about how Tynion focuses on one character at the expense and flat out detriment of all others. That kind of happens here, no other character besides Cass has anything to do and the reader is left again with the question "what was the point of all this". I mean Cass essentially just soloed everything. But more than that, the black eyes were never addressed, the way the actually took down clayface was never addressed. The colony was just page filler because they did NOTHING in the end. There' a Deus Ex Machina that appears at the end and literally fixes everything right away. The awesome cass and shiva fight I was looking forward to? Two pages, it's like Cass was in a shonen anime and as soon as she decided to try hard there was no threat. This storyline was essentially Shiva and fodder ninjas trying to be written as bigger threats than they had any reason to be. Not only that but through the conclusion we see that the conclusion itself and past issues were just set ups for future storylines. I would have loved this if it was half or a third as long with just Cass and Shiva. It really didn't need to be so forcibly drawn out, the threat didn't warrant it at all.

    Yep, it was crap.

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    Lvenger

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    Honestly Nightwing is the best Batman book at the moment. Far and away the best of the Bat Family comics at the moment.

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    Black_Arrow

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    @black_arrow: You mean the old Flash: Rebirth by Geoff Johns?

    No, the one after DC Rebirth. Like Batman has the one shot Batman:Rebirth, Flash also has one and it expands a bit on the button.

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    the_red_viper

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    #31 the_red_viper  Moderator

    @the_red_viper said:

    @black_arrow: You mean the old Flash: Rebirth by Geoff Johns?

    No, the one after DC Rebirth. Like Batman has the one shot Batman:Rebirth, Flash also has one and it expands a bit on the button.

    Do you have a link to it? I don't seem to find it on Amazon.

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    Black_Arrow

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    @black_arrow said:
    @the_red_viper said:

    @black_arrow: You mean the old Flash: Rebirth by Geoff Johns?

    No, the one after DC Rebirth. Like Batman has the one shot Batman:Rebirth, Flash also has one and it expands a bit on the button.

    Do you have a link to it? I don't seem to find it on Amazon.

    https://www.amazon.com/Flash-Rebirth-1-Joshua-Williamson-ebook/dp/B01DKZ7SDS

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    the_red_viper

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    #33 the_red_viper  Moderator

    @black_arrow: Thanks. How necessary is it? Is it really important or is it kinda negligible?

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    Black_Arrow

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    @black_arrow: Thanks. How necessary is it? Is it really important or is it kinda negligible?

    Well It sets up how Flash and Batman started to work on the case together so it's kind of important.

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    the_red_viper

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    #35  Edited By the_red_viper  Moderator

    @black_arrow said:
    @the_red_viper said:

    @black_arrow: Thanks. How necessary is it? Is it really important or is it kinda negligible?

    Well It sets up how Flash and Batman started to work on the case together so it's kind of important.

    Oh, OK. I'll see if I can get it in my local comic book store, I don't like ordering from third-party sellers on Amazon and it's really the only online store I use. Thanks.

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    laughingbatman

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    Villains-Batman. It's been mainly Bane through two story arcs for a reason. War of Jokes and Riddles should be good too.

    Allies-Tec. I'm not a fan of Fox basically being Tony Stark, but everything else works.

    Artwork-Leaning towards Batman. Tec has had some great moments though.

    Writing-Tec, because the writing in The Button is far superior to everything else thus far in Batman otherwise I'd say Batman. It's just not been consistent. TOO much PIS.

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    Bat_Girl_CC

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    #37  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

    @laughingbatman said:

    Villains-Batman. It's been mainly Bane through two story arcs for a reason. War of Jokes and Riddles should be good too.

    Allies-Tec. I'm not a fan of Fox basically being Tony Stark, but everything else works.

    Artwork-Leaning towards Batman. Tec has had some great moments though.

    Writing-Tec, because the writing in The Button is far superior to everything else thus far in Batman otherwise I'd say Batman. It's just not been consistent. TOO much PIS.

    But that's precisely the problem here!

    Batman fans:

    * Rebirth happens *

    - " Detective Comics is the best book ever! "

    * Batman doesn't shine as much as they wantted to *

    - " Tynion sucks! i'm dropping this shitty book! "

    LOL.

    Meanwhile, the Batman book is terribly written, Tom King's Bruce Wayne barely resembles the real Bruce Wayne, the other characters appearing on a basis are either just not interesting or poorly-written, but Batman gets to look extra-cool there, so they love it!

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    Bat_Girl_CC

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    Just read the most recent issue of Detective. Did NOT like it. Usually my complaints are about how Tynion focuses on one character at the expense and flat out detriment of all others. That kind of happens here, no other character besides Cass has anything to do and the reader is left again with the question "what was the point of all this". I mean Cass essentially just soloed everything. But more than that, the black eyes were never addressed, the way the actually took down clayface was never addressed. The colony was just page filler because they did NOTHING in the end. There' a Deus Ex Machina that appears at the end and literally fixes everything right away. The awesome cass and shiva fight I was looking forward to? Two pages, it's like Cass was in a shonen anime and as soon as she decided to try hard there was no threat. This storyline was essentially Shiva and fodder ninjas trying to be written as bigger threats than they had any reason to be. Not only that but through the conclusion we see that the conclusion itself and past issues were just set ups for future storylines. I would have loved this if it was half or a third as long with just Cass and Shiva. It really didn't need to be so forcibly drawn out, the threat didn't warrant it at all.

    Well, Cass didn't do it alone, she bested Shiva in the end, but the final fight started with the whole team against Shiva, and then it was Cass and Bruce vs Shiva, Bruce got to block some hits! and its not easy having to fight 2 highly skilled people at the same time, and Cass was serious this time around just not using lethal-strikes which was what she was primarily trained to do, i thought that Cassandra's resolve was pretty cool and did the character justice.

    As for how the others were portrayed, i'm telling you man, just wait for the character centric arcs to end and the you'll see that you'll like it more, i rest my case.

    Yeah, i didn't liked that either, i was really hoping that the black-eyes angle and the special swords were adressed...my guess is that since Tynion kept having the characters mentioning "magic" here and there throughout the whole arc, (Ra's mentioned it a few issues ago, we saw it again in the end of this weeks issue) i assume that magic was involved, maybe it gets fully explained in some later arc that Tynion is planning for.

    Like i said, on other threads about this subject, PLOT takes a key role in writting a book like this, because let's face it, this a bat-book, so the characters will deal with street-level threats for the most part, and realistically there's no therats at street-level that this team cant take care of easly, heck even each member alone can do it...but you still have to "sell" to the reader that that's not the case, otherwise it gets boring...kinda like the Justice League books...it's not easy to make a book like this work, but looking at the sales-numbers one would say that Tynion is doing a fairly good job at it ;)

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    laughingbatman

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    @laughingbatman said:

    Villains-Batman. It's been mainly Bane through two story arcs for a reason. War of Jokes and Riddles should be good too.

    Allies-Tec. I'm not a fan of Fox basically being Tony Stark, but everything else works.

    Artwork-Leaning towards Batman. Tec has had some great moments though.

    Writing-Tec, because the writing in The Button is far superior to everything else thus far in Batman otherwise I'd say Batman. It's just not been consistent. TOO much PIS.

    But that's precisely the problem here!

    Batman fans:

    * Rebirth happens *

    - " Detective Comics is the best book ever! "

    * Batman doesn't shine as much as they wantted to *

    - " Tynion sucks! i'm dropping this shitty book! "

    LOL.

    Meanwhile, the Batman book is terribly written, Tom King's Bruce Wayne barely resembles the real Bruce Wayne, the other characters appearing on a basis are either just not interesting or poorly-written, but Batman gets to look extra-cool there, so they love it!

    I've collected every issue of each title solely for the sake of having every issue in my collection, but some have been hard to read. Yet, every week, I'm optimistic going into it lol I'm looking forward to this War of Jokes and Riddles though. My two favorite Bat villains in one story!

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    Eto

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    @entropy_aegis: One would say King is forced to put Duke in his stories. Really a shame imo. I'd rather have Damian, but ooh well. I'll drop the book once the Button ends.

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    Aahz

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    @lvenger said:

    Honestly Nightwing is the best Batman book at the moment. Far and away the best of the Bat Family comics at the moment.

    imo Nightwing, Super Sons and RhatO are at the moment the most the best books.

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    Lvenger

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    @aahz said:
    @lvenger said:

    Honestly Nightwing is the best Batman book at the moment. Far and away the best of the Bat Family comics at the moment.

    imo Nightwing, Super Sons and RhatO are at the moment the most the best books.

    Super Sons is so much fun, they could make a cartoon show out of Damian and Jon getting up to hijinks.

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    Vertigo-

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    #43  Edited By Vertigo-

    Deathstrokes rebirth series has been really good so far.

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    Aahz

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    Deathstrokes rebirth series has been really good so far.

    But it he is not really part of the Batman franchise.

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    JamesWayne

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    so ever against shiva or the league. Cass literally soloed 200 ninjas then beat shiva in a on on one while no one helped. And she did it not by raging out but by finding herself and accepting all sides of herself. So she's comfortable doing this, this isn't bloodlusted. Shiva never even hit her. How does Tynion balance something that overpowered on a team now? Same thing will happen to Azrael next arc.

    And it should also be noted that the complaint's are just solely against batman, it's against the entire team. King's fight scenes have been ridiculous, from zoom to fighting amazons and atlanteans, to the way the Bane fight ended to beating a small army with automatic weapons by charging at them. However, I really liked what King had to say in the I am Bane arc in Batman's monologue and I am loving Batman's personal interactions in the button. They're fantastic, so I'm willing to look past some of the other faults. I believe the same is true of people (such as yourself) that favor Cassandra Cain, she had, beyond just the incredible fight scene, a very strong arc full of character growth, that brought her back to classic pre52 Cass (who is awesome), so it's easy to look past some of the issues, because there was so much PIS in this run it's ridiculous just like the batman moments I mentioned above. Beyond just feats or fighting (although they are a part of comics) you want the writer to say something about your character, ESPECIALLY if the character's name is on the title of the freaking book. And right now that's not happening for anyone else besides Cass, and it's ridiculous to wait for everyone else to get an arc. In fact, since Tynion said that he had until 975 mapped out. Assuming he does a clayface arc, and then returns to Ra's and returns Tim, I doubt Bruce is ever getting an arc, but either way, why should a reader wait, whether it be Bruce, or Clayface, or Azrael or Luc, etc to see what makes their character great or special? That's a very poor way to do a team book, and the best Justice League stories do not take that approach. In my opinion, what would have been perfect was if every character arc was 2-3 issues long, like Spoiler's 2nd arc is about to be. Only has that character in it, tell the story, this is the character, why they're great, then get back to team work. Because so much of shadows was useless filler. The sales of the book are strong for several reasons, one the characters on the team are classic and this is the only way to read up on them and see what they're up to, and two it has batman's name on the cover. I was looking at those sales numbers you posted, and Batman's name is everywhere, I didn't even know DC printed that many Batman related books. I think they're might be fatigue setting in someplace in the future, although right now both main titles are dropping at similar rates. Only all star is dropping more, which is sad to me because I really like it (which I know is not a popular opinion, but to each their own).

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    JamesWayne

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    @bat_girl_cc: agree with some of what you said, once it gets passed the character saviour mode of the book, tec will get better. But it I ridiculous to expect a reader to wait at least another year for that to happen. I know we disagree, but the team did absolutely nothing against shiva or the league. Cass literally soloed 200 ninjas then beat shiva in a on on one while no one helped. Would be satisfied if Cass just blocked while Bruce used a gadget or Clayfact just did....well anything really. And she did it not by raging out but by finding herself and accepting all sides of herself. So she's comfortable doing this, this isn't bloodlusted. Shiva never even hit her. How does Tynion balance something that overpowered on a team now? Same thing will happen to Azrael next arc.

    And it should also be noted that the complaint's are just solely against batman, it's against the entire team. King's fight scenes have been ridiculous, from zoom to fighting amazons and atlanteans, to the way the Bane fight ended to beating a small army with automatic weapons by charging at them. However, I really liked what King had to say in the I am Bane arc in Batman's monologue and I am loving Batman's personal interactions in the button. They're fantastic, so I'm willing to look past some of the other faults. I believe the same is true of people (such as yourself) that favor Cassandra Cain, she had, beyond just the incredible fight scene, a very strong arc full of character growth, that brought her back to classic pre52 Cass (who is awesome), so it's easy to look past some of the issues, because there was so much PIS in this run it's ridiculous just like the batman moments I mentioned above. Beyond just feats or fighting (although they are a part of comics) you want the writer to say something about your character, ESPECIALLY if the character's name is on the title of the freaking book. And right now that's not happening for anyone else besides Cass, and it's ridiculous to wait for everyone else to get an arc. In fact, since Tynion said that he had until 975 mapped out. Assuming he does a clayface arc, and then returns to Ra's and returns Tim, I doubt Bruce is ever getting an arc, but either way, why should a reader wait, whether it be Bruce, or Clayface, or Azrael or Luc, etc to see what makes their character great or special? That's a very poor way to do a team book, and the best Justice League stories do not take that approach. In my opinion, what would have been perfect was if every character arc was 2-3 issues long, like Spoiler's 2nd arc is about to be. Only has that character in it, tell the story, this is the character, why they're great, then get back to team work. Because so much of shadows was useless filler. The sales of the book are strong for several reasons, one the characters on the team are classic and this is the only way to read up on them and see what they're up to, and two it has batman's name on the cover. I was looking at those sales numbers you posted, and Batman's name is everywhere, I didn't even know DC printed that many Batman related books. I think they're might be fatigue setting in someplace in the future, although right now both main titles are dropping at similar rates. It's also kind of a shame, I think these characters are strong enough to support a book without needing batman. I'd buy a Cain book a lot sooner than I'd buy a Kane book (see what I did there, although I picked up the first couple issues of the latter). Only all star is dropping more, which is sad to me because I really like it (which I know is not a popular opinion, but to each their own).

    In the end, writer's don't care nearly about this stuff as much as we do (PIS, consistency, etc) they just want to tell a story, and all their view points will differ. If this was Morisson, batman would be walking around with the greatest contingencies ever....and those contingencies will have contingencies that have contingences. And he's not wrong, neither is Tynion. When we debate, we debate our interpretation versus someone else's interpretation. The trick to a "good comic" is finding that writer that says something or does something you want to read. And that's my main complaint regarding Tynion's Batman, he hasn't said anything about him and it's been a year. And while we may disagree on what "good" is, although our complaints and strengths for Detective and Batman are basically the same thing applied to the other book, I think it's great that the bat line is so diverse that we and everyone can find some kind of book that's "good". Currently, i'd say All star and RHATO are my favorite (and Lobdell writes one!!), and a great past book no longer with us goes to Batman and Robin with Tomasi. That man also had Bruce nailed in my opinion, AND he has Superman nailed, fantastic stuff. DC should use him more, I'd be very interested in a Justice League written by Tomasi. Sorry for the long post, I don't frequent my comic store as much, got busier, so now online is the main place I could talk about the medium.

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