1. Cassandra Cain
2. Nightwing
3. Batman
4. Damian Wayne
5. Kate Kane
6. Helena Bertinelli
7. Jason Todd
8. Duke Thomas
9. Stephanie Brown
10. Tim Drake

Source: Tom King's Twitter

The guy is absolutely inconsitent with power levels so it's not like I even care about his opinion. But this list is just... idiotic. He also added this: This in one-on-one, hand-to-hand, not about long term strategies, where Batman would be #1, Batgirl (Barbara) #2, Tim #3, Jason below Ace. I like his hatred of Jason. https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/833738440739061763?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

King is an absolute idiot. I just read that article on CBR and was about to make a thread post about it. The fact that he ranked Duke above anybody, especially Tim, is absurd.

@eto I know you're not a King fan so I'm curious on your thoughts.

Let's get Tynion's opinion on this:

I agree with Tynion. Cass >> Bruce >> Dick >> Damian, and the rest I don't really care for. I wonder where King would've placed Catwoman (glad he didn't put her on the list). Probably in the second spot right after Holly.

Seriously though, this guys is the last person I want to hear talking about the skill levels in the Bat family. His run so far has been so wildly inconsistent that it's pretty much total nonsense, so he really is in no position to speak about stuff like that. If he has time to tweet, you would think he has more time to read the garbage that he writes to make sure it's clear and consistent, instead of having to go on Twitter to clarify his terrible dialogue and fix up his mistakes.

+1

The biggest crime is that Duke is so high and Jason is so low. RLR was actually discussing this and list was..

1. Cassandra Cain

2. Batman

3. Jason Todd

4. Dick Grayson

5. Batwoman

6. Tim Drake

7. Damien Wayne (though he has beaten Tim in the past, he fought dirty)

8. Barbara Gordon

9. Helena Bertinelli

10. Stephanie Brown and Luke Fox

I would like to see where King place Catwoman in the list.

He's a fool that should be ignored.

Lol at Tim being 10.

Tim would slaughter Stephanie and Duke and give Damian a run for his money.

Jason could take on Hunters, Kane, Damian and hold his own vs. Dick.

Replace Duke with Luke. And Terry could at least make top 5.

How of those listed.

1. Cassandra Cain (maybe)
2. Batman
3. Nightwing
4. Jason Todd
5. Damian Wayne (would be higher if he was older)
6. Kate Kane
7. Helena Bertinelli
8. Tim Drake
9. Duke Thomas
10. Stephanie Brown

Edit: I wouldn't add Terry or Luke considering they're backed by power suits.

Lol at Duke being ranked higher than TIM.

Tim would blitz Duke.

I don't get why Tim is so low. There would be a little rearranging in other areas as well for me.

Are we talking about Rebirthwise or overall? Because overall Tim should be in the top five.

Of course this would get Batfans all riled up. "REEEEEEEE muh pet mary sue character and his PIS 'feats' aren't being respected enough in this random joke tweet!" Seems to happen every other day. I'm sure everyone is rushing to grab scans from a crap book by Lobdell/whatever to prove why their pet character is so special and should have a power level of 1,000,000,000.

Even other writers are having a good laugh at the power level fans nerdraging a tantrum.

His opinion, I honestly dont care, these lists are never accurate anyway. Fans got trolled on Twitter, I will just say that the Batline is a dreck if the Batman writer values to put Duke in a list but not Barbara. I'll get my Batman fix from JLA and Trinity, Damian is in TT and Super Sons, Nightwing is good and I'll get Bane. It's frankly time for me to bid adieu to the Batman books. Was just reading a Tynion interview where's he's all that the League of Shadows being even more secretive and shadowy than the League of Assassins and that Ra's created it for more secrecy but at the same time to take credit for terrorist attacks...wtf is this nonsense? with King it's about Duke and z list villain cameos and rushed plots and horrid power levels, with Tynion its about one dimensional characters, secret organizations, secret secrets and phony drama and chosen ones.

Time to migrate to Superman, Hank Henshaw is returning with a bang too. Tynion can repeat his Lady Shiva/ Cass story that was already written more than a decade ago and King can do whatever he wants with Duke and Gotham Girl.

I'm asuming this is mesured by how well they would do in a fight, and no other skills.

Helena Wayne should be on this list if anything, not Bertinelli.

Stephanie and Tim should be above Duke.

Since the last time I remember Tim fighting Stephanie he lost, he should still be under her.

Nightwing should definitley be under Batman.

Cassandra... it really depends on who is writing, so she is iffy.

Jason should be right under or above Damian, both are around the same level in different types of combat.

Batwoman should be under those Damian and Jason.

My list, excluding Cassandra, because her ranking is hard to determine due to inconsistensies, and excluding Helena

#1 Batman

#2 Nightwing

#3 Damian or Jason

#4 Damian or Jason

#5 Batwoman

#6 Stephanie

#7 Tim

#8 Duke

On another note, I hope this doesn't mean in the next arc that Cassandra and Batman will be fighting full on, and she wins.

When did this happen?

@aahz:

It was in some issue from back in the 90's. Its been a while, so I'm not sure if it was in Batman, Detective Comics or Robin I was reading.

Nightwing over Batman? Interesting

@laughingbatman: Firstly, I want to thank you for the tag :).

Now back to the topic. This is such a ludicrous ranking! Why?!

I wholeheartedly agree with you, how on earth is Duke above Tim. Lolol

Jason below Damian? Though I've to mention, Jason is my fav member so. Haha.

King strikes again!!!

Even though I'm not reading the current Batman run, I'll definitely pick up "the button" crossover arc.

I'm expecting a stupendous arc, since King will be collaborating with Williamson (that's the Flash's writer name right?)

They've never actually had a 'real' fight. And since you're referring to a 90's issue that would imply you're talking about pre-52 Tim and Steph, which in that case Tim would win rather handily against her. She has no feats that put her remotely on his level.

Now if we're talking new-52 it would be closer, still Tim by a hair. He has beaten Damian once and stalemated Jason. Steph on the other hand, she has no combat feats to say she could do the same.

Personally, I love the idea of Dick bypassing Bruce in combat prowess. That doesn't lessen Batman at all as a character in my mind. The problem is no one has ever written Dick that way. The character is still treated like tier 2 material.

As for Duke, there's nothing to suggest he should be anything but dead-last on this list. Tom is just tipping his hat to Scott Snyder on that one.

WAAAAAAAT?

It was the Red Robin series, the last arc before flashpoint, i belive, and no-one defeated anyone, there wasn't even a fight, if i remember correctly Steph stomped a assassin (prudence i think that was the name) and impressed him in doing so, and that was it...if thats what you're reffering to, it doesn't make Steph > Tim.

I'm not sure of what you mean, by "fighting full on", but Cass never "fights full on" against anyone not even meta-humans, they would die in less than half-a-second...this has been stated multiple times on multiple titles...it was even stated on Batgirl #70 - Destruction's Daughter, Conclusion: The Resurrection and the Life which was near the end of Cassandra's Batgirl series, that Cass had never went all out against anybody ever, and when she did Shiva couldn't belive what she was seeing.

If you mean, holding-back, but still trying to win, we already saw that on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love and Batman could hardly keep up despite using Gear + Gadgets + Dirty Tactics just to stay in the fight...on Batman: Gotham Knights #5 - Locked; Hide and Seek Cass out-fought Batman when he was on a morals-off kind of state and forced him to flee, there was also a sparring/training-session where Cass asked Batman to hit her and she easly dodged all of his attacks with a smile on her face, etc, pure hand-to-hand he can't compete, with his standard equipment things get more interesting.

@tsukumo_yuma: Cass really isn't THAT inconsisstent, all you have to do its ignore the PIS instances, and it will be fine, plus mainly all adam bechen.

And in the Post-Flashpoint continuity, so far, a-side from a Tim Seeley written issue on Batman and Robin Eternal, all Cassandra's appearences have been very consistent.

You're welcome for the tag. I've tried to be overly optimistic with King, but this is nonsense and clearly shows in his writing.

The button should be great. I'm so excited to see if we actually see Thomas Wayne's Flashpoint Batman again, or if that's just for the cover art. Crossing my fingers it's not. And yeah, Williamson is the Flash writer. This Rogue's story hasn't been too bad yet, I'm hoping both writers bring their A-game to The Button (and I hope somebody competent proofreads whatever King writes).

@laughingbatman: Yeah, Thomas is badassness itself. He's so awesome.

As for the button arc, I'm pretty sure Geoff Johns' plotted this story so he'll be heavily engaged in this.

I think. I hope. The guy knows what he's doing.

Also do you, perhaps, know on which title Johns will be working.

I'm eagerly waiting on it and determined to get it. Bet it's watchmen related.@laughingbatman:

The man's an idiot.

@eto: I'm not too sure which title Johns will be on. I'll have to look into it and see what I find. I'm so anxious for the first Watchmen member to make an appearance. From the issue of 'Tec 950, I have to believe that Batman is preparing everybody for war with them.

I'm just so ready for this to all play out. Ever since I first saw that button in Rebirth 1, I've been looking for clues everywhere.

@lvenger said:

Nightwing definitely ranks below Batman, but above everyone else. Jason should probably go after him. Kate after him and Damian after her. Helena probably after Damian, and one above Tim. Stephanie goes after Tim, and Duke stays at the bottom, where he belongs. How can anyone rank Duke higher than zero and leave out Batgirl is incomprehensible to me, especially since Duke hasn't really fought anyone of note. Hell, he hasn't done much fighting at all, as far as I can recall. He's mostly on monitor duty.

Cassandra, I'm iffy on...as someone else mentioned, she's terribly inconsistent. If we're talking just based on ability, I suppose her body-reading ability is basically precognition, although there's still the matter of having the speed to back that up.

this is wrong.

@orangebat: Cassandra doesnt lack speed, shes so much faster than batman it isnt even a contest. She did timed trials at the batcave and was basically beating her own records because no one could even get close to her in terms of speed.

Only problem Cass has is that her martials art prowess is bad, even below Tim or Damian, but that seldom comes into play with her body reading + speed + power.

@entropy_aegis: So wait, if King is saying Dick is a superior fighter to Batman, then how did Batman manage to just casually capture Dick along with two other Robins and hand them to Superman to babysit ? And if we assumed King was just lying, and that the actual events that took place were indeed as shown in the book, with the Robins going after Bane and having their asses handed to them, then how did Bane manage to not only defeat Dick, but also Jason and Damian ? If Bane can do that, how is Bruce going to beat him exactly ?

Someone needs to stop this maniac from ever touching a Batman book ever again. He just keeps spouting and writing nonsense, and DC wants to keep him on the book for five years ?!! I can't believe there are people who defend this guy's writing.

@enzo991 said:

Do we actually know that Bruce physically restrained all the Robins (former and current)? Maybe he simply tricked them?

@enzo991: Beating someone doesn't automatically mean they have better combat prowess. Batman with prep beats basically anything.

However as I mentioned earlier, there's nothing to suggest that Dick has attained a better level of combat than Bruce. I would love to see a published example anywhere where that has happened, but it hasn't. Until a writer like Tom actually puts his money where his mouth is, these twitter lists are pretty irrelevant. Same applies for Duke.

What about the fight in Nightwing 30 which was written by King?

Of course we don't know, that's my point. King is asking us to believe there is a whole missing part of the story where Batman decided to somehow kidnap the Robins and stick them in refrigerators at the Fortress of Solitude, despite nothing in the comic suggesting anything like that actually happening. Not only the dialogue clearly points to the Robins getting beaten by Bane, as Batman clearly mentioned that if he were to wake them up they will go after Bane AGAIN, and even Superman asked about their condition, implying that they did get beat up by someone. Also, unless the Robins did go after Bane, the entire Bat-Burger scene would be rendered pointless, as it would be pointless set up that lead to nothing.

So if we disregarded all that, and assumed nothing actually happened beside Batman rounding up the Robins somehow, but still leaving Selina and Duke for some reason, then how and when did he accomplish that ? That's like half an issue missing from the story that King wants me to believe happened, despite his own writing showing otherwise. My point is this man clearly has no idea what he is talking about, and if he felt that confident to talk about skill levels in the Bat family, you would think he wouldn't omit a supposedly huge moment like Batman just deciding to go after the Robins. King is lying to cover up for his mistakes, so there is absolutely no reason to even entertain whatever lists he comes up with.

1) i agree that Batman should be number 2 and Dick number 3 on this list.

2) The inconsistencies that you people are talking about are bad-writting moments, every character has those...even Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Man Hunter, etc.

Just here on my comicvine account i have full-scans of over 30 instances where Cass performed crazy-fast-speed-feats...plus + many stricking-feats, endurance feats, pain-tolerance feats...i also have dozens of instances where Cass fought meta-humans and did well...plus + full-scans of the 3 times that Cass and Deathstroke fought 1-on-1 and there was never a clear winner...plus + Cass defeating Lady Shiva twice, embarassing Batman several times, Nightwing as well, defeating a copy of Batgirl (Babs) several times in about less than half-a-second each...training Tim Drake and we can see how Tim can't even land one single hit on her, etc, etc...and i can give you the issue number to all of them...and Cass has only been in 410 issues so far in the entirity of her publicashion history...Even on this new continuity we already have Cass easly defeating Agent Grayson without getting touched and while holding back, easly defeating The Mother who was holding her own against all former Robins and Damian at the same time, reaching to Harper Row and pushing her aside faster than the bullet fired from The Mother could reach Harper, taking out 6 Colony Agents at once, disappearing on Batman while talking to him, etc...really, the inconsistencies that you are talking about, are just ocasions where the writter forgot about the characters abillities and skill-set for the sake of the story that he wantted to tell...it happens to every character, every now and then.

@tsukumo_yuma: @orangebat: How's Cass inconsistent? she only has 410 appearences in the entirity of her publicashion history, so far...Batman, for exemple, has almost 14.000...what is a "bat-god moment" for Bruce, its just another tuesday for Cass.

Actually if i remember correctly it was written by Tim Seeley...anyway, even if we are to take that showing seriously, (both displayed strengh and durabillity never seen in any of their appearences on this new continuity) neither out-right beat the other, although Dick ended up looking superior, but then there's the problem that the whole fight started with Bruce telling Dick that he had to win, meaning that he wantted Dick to win, and Bruce is smiling in the end after he "lost", now sure it could just be that his protege finally surpassed him and he was proud, but to me it was Bruce being happy in having given Dick alot of confidence on himself to prepare him for his future as a spy.

1) Yup, and she once even speed-blitzed Batman on panel.

2) As for her martial arts prowess, actually it was stated that her offense is good, her problem is her defense, because she relies alot on her Body-Reading for her defense, her defense it's what's probably around Tim or Damians level, without her Body-Reading of course...remember that she's a master on the use of pressure-points and nerve-strikes, it was once even stated that she's a master of a chinese nerver strike technique that only Cass and David Cain have mastered not even Batman knows out to perform, although hes aware of it's existence, she can also stop her own heart from beating, and others too and making it work again, amoung other things, no-way do Tim and Damian have that level of skill.

Btw, that's all pre-flashpoint though, i'm pretty sure this list is about post-flashpoint, and i don't know if Cassandra's problems with her defense are still cannon.

Switch Jason with Kate, take Nightwing down two pegs, and just remove Duke all together.

Wow. I'll be back to this lol. Cassie at 1 is understandable but he has Grayson over Bruce and Stephenie over Tim lol.

Problem with that example is that we, the readers, see the fight play out in its entirety and it ends with Bruce saying "enough", as Dick has proven what he needed to prove to Bruce to send him on the mission. Dick then declares that he "won". All fine and dandy, but there's really no indication of him actually being superior to Bruce based off of that statement alone, since it's not as if Bruce is knocked out or unable to continue fighting or something.

@bat_girl_cc: Gotta disagree with your statement regarding defense. Tims style emphasizes defense over offense big time. Its a stalling style that makes him extremely hard to take down. Its the reason he could go against Ras for several minutes, that he didnt get blitzed by cassandra, that he managed to defeat or escape from the black glove agents when Dick couldnt, and that he has been able to survive for so long. Kid has been at it for a mere 4 years and can go toe to toe with people that have trained their whole life exactly because of this huge emphasis on defense and survivability. He rolls with the punches, his bo is often used to parry, he relies on ranged attacks with which he is remarkably accurate, he also has an obscene stamina and resistance to pain. Tho this is all pre flashpoint.

In the new 52 Tim has probably the greatest offense potential in the batfamily, the things hes able to do and the pain hes able to inflict is p. insane (punching through steel, being able to hurt superboy, meaning hes able to hurt superman on a melee, being able to seriously wound trigon). But he has a really lousy defense and goes down easily, all strategical or tactical thought is gone, or is completely ineffective, he really is the antithesis of Tim Drake in every sense.

In rebirth i have no idea.

@Soulaf: Do you seriously believe that Tim is capable of making Superman feel anything more than a feather falling on his cape with melee only?