''She's a terrible character''
Words of wisdom.
Is Batman, Inc The Right Direction?
I understand where babs is coming from, most people probably feel that batman work best from the shadows. I did too for a while, but now, thinking about this in depth, perhaps bruce realizes that just being an urban legend isnt enough. For the longest time, he has been wageing a war on crime, but in order to fight a war, you need an army. To me thats what Batman Inc. is, an international strike force of "batmen" that are ready at his beck and call.
Stephanie Brown will be in England for one issue I think in a few months.
The whole Batman working in the shadows only works in early year stories people know Batman is real they have known since War Games when he was caught on camera Batman is not an urban legend anymore. I do think that there being two Batmen throws people off from it being Bruce.
Cat noises aside which also put me off, I think this is one of the most fun, sexy and competent portrayals of Catwoman we've seen in a while. Of course, we'll have to wait till next issue to see how she deals with the octopus, but I'm actually surprised at how much I like Morrison's Catwoman. Certainly better than how she's portrayed in all of Sirens.
I might be a little biased since I'm relatively new to comics, but I like the concept as a whole. Don't get me wrong, I have read a lot of Batman trades since I started, but the idea of publicly admitting to funding Batman doesn't seem like the worst idea in the world. As stated in the video, Morrison likes to set things up early with a big pay off later (I've learned this after reading his Doom Patrol run) so I have faith.
The only thing I take issue with, is the criticism that people wish Batman could go back to being more of an urban myth. Logistically speaking this could only last so long. Especially with the advent of technology, it was only a matter of time before someone was able to take a picture or record video of Batman. I just feel Bruce would have realized this and just sort of adjusted accordingly.
"What's the point of the Bruce Wayne persona?" I love these type of discussion videos because that is a great question, wouldn't have thought of that on my own. Lord, I love this site.
More or less found myself agreeing with all the stuff except for my big question of "Why isn't Cassandra Cain featured more!?" I want this character explored more. I saw her briefly in Red Robin but does anyone know of any upcoming arcs with her in it? Possibly her own series as part of the Bat Inc? Long overdue methinks.
The whole Batman Inc. idea is flat out dumb.
Like Sara said - Batman is about him being a shadowy , urban myth figure and now they're trying to make him a public figure ? WTF is this crap ?
The whole idea of Batman becoming Batman was so no one would have to do what he vowed himself to do. Now it's like he's endangering others. I was never really a big fan of him involving others in his personal vendetta. I always preferred Batman working solo. Don't get me wrong I love Batgirl, Robin and Nightwing they're great characters and part of the Batman mythos. But in reality if you were Batman you wouldn't get kids involved in the War on Crime. It's one thing training them so when they're adults they're ready when they're matured and to make the choice on what they want to do. And now that Bruce is saying he's funding Batman now it's like ringing the dinner bell for all of Batman's foes to come get him and his "family". Batman's rogues gallery is faaaaaar worst than Iron Man's villians.
Like I said bad idea and bad storyline. That's why I'm not really buying any of the Batman comics. I've never been a fan of Grant Morrison's work anyways I think he's a bit overrated.
i picked this issue up at my LCS and read it on the spot, because while the concept intrigued me, i was unsure. i ended up putting the book back on the shelf because it didn't really interest me. i love my batman (bruce, dick, or terry) but i'll have to wait a few issues before i decide to pick this up for sure.
Its funny how opinions are starting to change about this whole thing. I remember after Batman & Robin #16 everyone on every site I visited were "blown away" by that comic. I couldnt help but see the problems with it all. I like the idea of Batman Inc., I just dont like how dangerously close everyone is to knowing Batman is Bruce Wayne. I believe Morrison's intent was to have Bruce reveal he was financing Batman in an effort to throw people off his trail. But that combined with the Joker and numerous thugs working with Dr. Hurt running around Wayne Manor is only making it worse.
"Its funny how opinions are starting to change about this whole thing. I remember after Batman & Robin #16 everyone on every site I visited were "blown away" by that comic. I couldnt help but see the problems with it all. I like the idea of Batman Inc., I just dont like how dangerously close everyone is to knowing Batman is Bruce Wayne. I believe Morrison's intent was to have Bruce reveal he was financing Batman in an effort to throw people off his trail. But that combined with the Joker and numerous thugs working with Dr. Hurt running around Wayne Manor is only making it worse. "
i think theres shound be a batman inc
Actually I think it is treading dangerously close to the Kingdom Come background.
As far as what G-Man and Babs said about Batman being "just a regular dude" think about Deathstroke or even Cassandra, how many supersoldiers are currently in the DCU superhuman community? how hard would it be to make people believe that he has recruited a Slade Wilson caliber Batman or that all of the "Batmen" are at that level (supersoldier caliber)?
Wait, why would people make the link between Damian and Robin? Batman has had a Robin since before Damian was born. Why would anybody make that connection? Potentially, nobody outside of the superhero community has a way to keep track of which Robin is which or how many Batman has trained.
I mean, that is not connected to how good or bad Batman Inc. is, but him having a new Robin and Bruce having a son are not a change in status quo at all.
In any case, the most troublesome part 'd be that villains figure out the Batman / Bat-family identity. Which several already have, and for several others it shouldn't be that hard to do anymore, now that there already is an obvious link to Bruce Wayne.
My opinion about Batman inc: I liked the idea of two Batmen running around, Dick to do Bruce's "old" work in Gotham. While Bruce does the more global work ( as he's done with JLA ). I also like the idea of Bruce trying to gain more control on the Bat-family. But I do not like where Batman inc currently seems to be heading. It's a basic rule of 'warfare': if you want to gain an advantage over your enemy: disrupt their supply chain. Which now has become pretty 'easy' to do.
I was thinkin about this last night. There's somethin inherently wrong with just this whole big change in Bruce. I mean really, with him comin out an sayin he funds Batman, what's to stop people from connecting the dots the way Vicki did? People are gonna be looking at anyone related to Bruce, like ya'll brought up the whole Damian Robin thing. Tim may have pushed himself outta the lime light with his whole Red Robin chrutches thing outside Morison's big plan, but what about Dick an the fact that there have been other Robin's?
Also, how do we know that this whole change in Bruce isn' just more to Darkseid's plan?
I love that you brought up the issue of Wayne Enterprises being liable for the Batman. I posed a similar question for the podcast, but didn't realize there wasn't going to be one this week. Before, villains had no idea where to direct their anger and hatred. Well, other than on Robin, who they saw as the weak link. Now they have a huge target. One that Batman could never hope to protect all of the companies and side businesses.
So, Batman feels he needs to for a team to create a war on crime. If only there was just some LEAGUE that would dedicate itself solely to JUSTICE. Oh, wait! There is already one, and he's been funding them for a while.
Wasn't the whole idea of being "The Batman" the way Bruce was going to instill fear into criminals. People fear for their lives because of criminals. So, Bruce was going to use one of their own weapons against them. Now, he's some kind of public figure that everyone gets a good look at. How do you pull back from that kind of exposure?
Is there still no Cassandra yet? Didn't she do a good enough job as Batgirl? Not to mention she's kind of his adopted daughter.
This sounds pretty silly.
Only Batman has the drive - the motivation - to avenge his parents by a war on crime.
Is Batman Inc. going to be a publicly traded corporation?
Can I buy stock in Batman Inc.?
What happens when the majority shareholders decide that Batman Inc.'s primary mission should be planting soybeans?
Besides - didn't Frank Miller already come up with this concept decades ago at the end of the original Dark Knight Returns?
the batman-bots look a lot like what was seen in kingdom come. i think DC might be trying to lead us toward where kingdom come should be. but with the death of Magog, it shouldn't happen. but lets think kingdom come was where new vigilantes were taking over, and the old ones retired. batman controlled Gotham with robots. now batman has robots, and with batman inc, (as Babs said) there could be a whole bunch of new vigilantes. i think we are being led to the kingdom come era!
batman inc has the potential to be a great thing. theres only so much batman can do in gotham. making it a franchise of sorts and bringing it worldwide doesn't make him less of a shadowy figure, and we are way past the fact that people think he's an urban legend. as long as a batman academy doesn't come out of this, im content with how things are going
@Bruce Vain said:
"The whole Batman Inc. idea is flat out dumb. Like Sara said - Batman is about him being a shadowy , urban myth figure and now they're trying to make him a public figure ? WTF is this crap ? The whole idea of Batman becoming Batman was so no one would have to do what he vowed himself to do. Now it's like he's endangering others. I was never really a big fan of him involving others in his personal vendetta. I always preferred Batman working solo. Don't get me wrong I love Batgirl, Robin and Nightwing they're great characters and part of the Batman mythos. But in reality if you were Batman you wouldn't get kids involved in the War on Crime. It's one thing training them so when they're adults they're ready when they're matured and to make the choice on what they want to do. And now that Bruce is saying he's funding Batman now it's like ringing the dinner bell for all of Batman's foes to come get him and his "family". Batman's rogues gallery is faaaaaar worst than Iron Man's villians. Like I said bad idea and bad storyline. That's why I'm not really buying any of the Batman comics. I've never been a fan of Grant Morrison's work anyways I think he's a bit overrated. "
I totally agree. Batman Inc. is the worst thing I've seen happen since I started reading Batman. I'm dumbfounded that DC went along with this concept.
This is, in a word, crap.
The Wayne Foundation was one thing that was initially made to combat social ills that Batman couldn't help with, and Batman wasn't so reluctant to be in the spotlight. That made sense as an organisation.
Essentially this is just undermining the whole point of the character though, not that there has been any integrity to him since his senseless retcon in the mid-80s that threw everything out of whack.
Gotham City and its characters need a serious reboot. Damian is the worst character possibly ever developed in comics. Dick is a pathetic Batman, and he shouldn't be expected to take up the role. He should be his own person, not the inheritor of a legacy he has long since divorced himself from (or been divorced from, if you read Chuck Dixon's garbage). Barbara turning into Oracle not only didn't make sense, but the graphic novel in which her injury took place that forced her down that shoehorned-in plotline was never meant to be taken into continuity. It's insulting that her capability as a crime-fighter and a positive political force, as well as a strong female protagonist, was completely disregarded from the mid-80s Bat-retcon and after.
Bruce Wayne as a character is utterly FUBAR and should have stayed dead, if they were going to bother to kill him off.
If you're going to have a public Batman presence, you might as well go more towards the presence that existed in the late 70s and early 80s, which were some of the finest Batman stories I have read. He wasn't as 'out in the spotlight' as in the mid-to-late 60s, but he was clearly known and yet maintained his intimidating presence.
This is just yet more nonsense with yet more poor writers who are so caught up in their own egos and name recognition that they forget comics are more about actual writing quality than just names, names, names.
Well, I like the idea of a Bat-Network, sure, that doesn't blow Bruce Wayne's cover or cheapen anything at all. The idea of Batmen being spread about the world in sort of a covert spy-like way fits perfectly into the Batman mythology. It doesn't exactly have to become a family or anything, plenty of people who work with Batman don't know his identity and this way the stories can be more intricate.
However, the idea of Bruce Wayne in any way resembling TONY STARK horrifies me and this whole public financial-backing thing Bruce is doing teeters the line. Despite his occasional flamboyance, Bruce Wayne is best when he's an enigma, not some super-powered Donald Trump or something (horrifying thought). It seems a bit too self-possessed for Bruce to be funding Batman and the only way it could possibly be pulled off is if Batman and Bruce had a highly-publicized falling out or something. Maybe this could be Bruce's way of tricking financial backers into thinking that funding Batman will subvert any suspicion of them which could result in him trailing their finances and busting them publicly or something.
But I agree with Babs about Catwoman making the animals noises, when will people get the hell over that trend? Even purrrrrrrfect annoys me and I'm a huge Catwoman fan.
Maybe I'm alone on this, but I was really hoping Grant Morrison's big pay-off he was talking about ever since that Final Crisis nonsense was that Batman was going to fade into obscurity like at the end of Frank Morris's The Dark Knight Returns, except just a little bit past his prime as oppose to when he was an old man at the end. Completely get rid of Bruce Wayne and have Batman become the myth more so than ever, along with having his little army doing operations and general clean-up.
Hyper-Adapter was a nice touch though, and I did enjoy Return of Bruce Wayne with its time paradoxes playing off each other.
The whole "I can't do it alone, I need 100 Batmen all over the world!" feels really contrived though even for a comic, especially when you consider there's a Justice League...so you know Batman doesn't have to be alone when he can't do it alone...
This is the opposite direction and along with Batman's Jetpack suit that Babs and G-Man didn't talk about in The Return, Bruce will quickly become just the DC Tony Stark...
After actually buying and reading Return and Inc. I have to say I sort of like the direction this is heading, especially bringing a Batman Manga character into the mainstream DC universe...little additions like that are something I would like to keep seeing. The concept as a concept, I believe is what is getting the bad rep from you guys but after reading through it - it isn't exactly the Xavier method of finding kids or the Superman "let's be friends" sort of set up. Batman obviously has an agenda, he will control everyone under his banner and what he says will go. Batman hasn't been an "urban legend" in decades and sure as hell an't going back into the shadows just yet...
The way this was set-up looks like it could be good. Batman's new outlook hasn't altered how he deals with his enemies within the criminal underworld...bring the "team" together, get the ball rolling, introduce some real threats and I can see most of this negativity vanishing. Also, start having "deaths in the family" and Batman may come out of this more isolated and hostile then ever.
I am not jumping for joy or anything but lets be honest. Bruce Wayne is already a billionaire richer than god etc guy, heck I can remember right off the top of my head he was targeted in the Long Halloween by Poison Ivy for no other reason than being who he is. Wayne Enterprises has also been targeted in a number of stories as well, again no need for a batman connection. Does this make them slightly bigger targets? Sure but it isn't like no criminal forces ever did anything to them before.
Then there is the whole "Your making your family a target!" arguement.... Uh... his family literally is "Batman", Robin, and a former British special forces soldier bad ass. I think it is fair to say they can cope. It isn't like Two Face attacking Dick Grayson will be a new experience for him. It should also be remembered that in RIP it was heavily implied the Joker already knew Batman's real identity anyway. Not to mention Bane, Hush, Ras Al Ghul, I am sure you are getting my point by now...
We all also know Batman himself has been around for years and years. With all the criminals he has fought, cops he has interacted with, and people who had to have seen him at various moments it is ludicrous to suggest he was still considered an "urban legend". Batman being real was not news to Gotham City, him being funded by Wayne Enterprises probably was though.
Last but not least... he just killed a god and defeated a doomsday plot/device created by the aforementioned god to kill him and pretty much all life. Maybe it is just me but he might be feeling slightly confident about himself.
I agree, I honestly believe most of this "backlash" is just due to an alternation of the character's ideology more then the concept itself. It will die down; those who like will keep buying, those who are skeptics may keep buying and those who hate it won't - either way DC makes money.
Creating any superhero inc company to have more than one of any character running around is stupid. Like some have said, no matter what DC makes money and isn't that all anyone cares about anymore, money money money. Who cares about how many times they rip apart a character, or kill them, it's just another way to create another book to over stretch another character that is everywhere at once
IMO this is just the next logical step to the Batman universe. We all now that Batman like characters have been building for years, sidekicks, replacement Batmen reformed villains etc. He's spent close to 80 years just collecting followers like a cult. Everyone inspired but what he had done. I think that like a lot of people this may not last to long simply because it is such a drastic change from the is a possibilty but it may not have been intended to last in the first place. Maybe it's just the set up for a new tragedy in Bruce's life where everything he's doing is going to fall apart who knows.
But in regards to Batman being just an urban legend honestly I think the time for that was over a long time again because although Batman may work from the shadows still everyone by now has to know he exists. He's apart of the Justice League and not just sitting at a desk he's in the fights with them and Richard (I hate calling him Dick) already revealed that their is a Batman in full view so really Bruce is just piggy backing of what Richard had done. Yet at the same time it doesn't really mean that they won't still have a type of mystery to the whole thing. Urban legends can be spread from city to city to different countries and people still not know they are real or not. Just because Bruce is collecting new members doesn't mean the whole world will know who they are.
Also given that Batman is two people I doubt it will become obvious that either way may be Batman. One of the common ways to reconceal a blown identity was to have someone dress in a costume and pretend to be the hero. Well neither one has to pretend to be anything they are the real deal. Also I think this may add a new level of fear to the methos because instead of criminal thinking of Batman as just one guy now they have to contend with a whole "army of Batmen " and that alone may instill fear like the police.
But lets not forget that this is just another idea and another something new to through in the pot of the Batman story. For Christ sake he's been around going on 100 years and he hasn't really changed much. This same principle was used on the Green Lantern to make him into something special and it allowed for multiple stories and a good well of ideas to come forward. but this is not a OMD BND type situation where the entire Batman universe is rewritten saying Batman's identity was never just one guy. If people don't respond well it will end and go back to the way things where and people will just try again no big thing this is totally something that can be fixed. I honestly don't see this lasting though not because the storyline will fail but just because it seems designed to maybe do so to create an even bigger and more amazing storyline.
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