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    Batman

    Character » Batman appears in 23535 issues.

    Bruce Wayne, who witnessed the murder of his billionaire parents as a child, swore to avenge their deaths. He trained extensively to achieve mental and physical perfection, mastering martial arts, detective skills, and criminal psychology. Costumed as a bat to prey on the fears of criminals, and utilizing a high-tech arsenal, he became the legendary Batman.

    'I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you' - Huh?

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    sinestro_GL

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    @uncleemu said:

    Depraved Indifference (2nd degree murder) requires a "callous disregard for human life" in situations where there is "reckless endagerment," such as driving a car too fast and hitting someone, or throwing a tv out the window and it falling on someone. Ra's put himself in that situation. If Batman had trapped him on the train on purpose, or through negligence (as in he was the train operator responsible for getting people off), it could be a 2nd degree murder charge. But as Batman found himself on a train that was going to explode, and Ra's happened to also be on that train, Batman did nothing to put Ra's in that situation or stop him from leaving.

    edit: @fadetoblackbolt@sinestro_gl

    ...and reply with...

    @ccraft said:

    He gave the orders to Jim to blow up the bridge, and then let Ra's die.

    I think that constitutes as reckless endangerment

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    russellmania77

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    #52  Edited By russellmania77

    No. He owed him his life anyways since he saved him in the begining

    #WHERE IS SHE?!

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    RustyRoy

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    rogueshadow

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    #54  Edited By rogueshadow  Moderator
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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @sinestro_gl: Ra's is the one who made the train unstoppable in the first place.

    If anything ras endangered himself by being on the darn train. Batman didnt do anything that would count as killing. If you're about to shoot yourself and I do nothing, I didnt kill you. Kind of what's happening here. No way is it batmans fault for him being there. Letting someone die doesn't count as killing.

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    freeDOM_93

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    #56  Edited By freeDOM_93

    Ra's would not have been able to be tried for his crimes against Gotham as he left no trail, whereas the Joker was all over the news, plus batman threw the Joker off the building so if he'd let him die it would have been murder, maybe if Ra's reacted quicker he could have saved himself

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    DeathpooltheT1000

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    Didnt Batman killed Ras in the comics?

    I have this crazy idea he did it and he almost did it again.

    Besides in the Arkham Games he does the same, he let Ras to his own destiny too.

    Is like Superman killing Zod, people gets too mad for something i am sure it happened before.

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    Marionettegeist

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    Didnt Batman killed Ras in the comics?

    I have this crazy idea he did it and he almost did it again.

    Besides in the Arkham Games he does the same, he let Ras to his own destiny too.

    Is like Superman killing Zod, people gets too mad for something i am sure it happened before.

    Well in the comics and Arkham games Ras will just come back via Lazarus Pit.

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    DeathpooltheT1000

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    @dctv3363: That point of view would apply for every single person, since it means he can bring them back from the grave or the fact they can get back.

    If people dont stay dead, killing them is not a big problem, still not killing them apply in a world where he can bring them from the grave.

    That shows, his rules always apply.

    His rules dont change, even if Ras can get back, since everybody can get back from the grave.

    He has a soft spot for Ras, even more that for The Joker.

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    Marionettegeist

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    @deathpoolthet1000: Ras has also already lived multiple life-times, and Batman doesn't have full time access to Lazarus pits while Ras does. But I see your point. I don't really see how he has a soft spot for Ras even more than the Joker though. And I wasn't saying he would directly kill Ras just because he can come back, just that he wouldn't fret to much about Ras putting himself into a situation where he could die, since he will just come back.

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    lilben42

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    #61  Edited By lilben42

    - Ras al Ghul stabbed the train controls so the train couldn't stop. He also wanted to die. Batman probably didn't plan for Ras to die but since the train couldn't stop and Ras almost killed him and all of Gotham he probably figured to just save himself. That is not a crime. Ra's basically killed himself.

    - With the Joker, he threw him off a building. If he didn't save him that would be murder no doubt.

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    DeathpooltheT1000

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    @dctv3363: Still he can get a Lazarus Pit and go and kill his enemies and bring them back from the grave.

    That dont change it gives him the decision who should die and get back from the grave, he is Batman, he cant take those decisions.

    I mean ONeill Shadows of Ras al Ghul, made Batman see if Ras was dead, he belive he could survive that, sure its not canon, but it shows Ras could had try to save itself in some way.

    Batman didnt killed him in an active way, like many belive.

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    Marionettegeist

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    @deathpoolthet1000:

    @dctv3363 said:

    @deathpoolthet1000: Ras has also already lived multiple life-times, and Batman doesn't have full time access to Lazarus pits while Ras does. But I see your point. I don't really see how he has a soft spot for Ras even more than the Joker though.

    And I wasn't saying he would directly kill Ras just because he can come back, just that he wouldn't fret to much about Ras putting himself into a situation where he could die, since he will just come back.

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    DeathpooltheT1000

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    @dctv3363 said:

    @deathpoolthet1000:

    @dctv3363 said:

    @deathpoolthet1000: Ras has also already lived multiple life-times, and Batman doesn't have full time access to Lazarus pits while Ras does. But I see your point. I don't really see how he has a soft spot for Ras even more than the Joker though.

    And I wasn't saying he would directly kill Ras just because he can come back, just that he wouldn't fret to much about Ras putting himself into a situation where he could die, since he will just come back.

    People get back from the grave all the time, not only Ras, besides i am almost sure Batman killed ras in the comics, sure you could try to rationalize it, but dont change he kills him, if something goes wrong Ras stays dead as much as The Joker, Harvey and any other character.

    Also he was in a suicidal mission, his plan would had cause so much chaos and destruction, it would had killed him or had small chances to walk away alive.

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    cosmo111687

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    #66  Edited By cosmo111687

    You know, I spent the whole movie waiting for Batman to begin, and he never did. (And by the end of the trilogy, I never once saw anything that resembled the Batman I know.)

    (There was a great Joker and a great Catwoman. But Batman was nowhere to be seen.)

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    DeathpooltheT1000

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    @cosmo111687 said:

    You know, I spent the whole movie waiting for Batman to begin, and he never did. (And by the end of the trilogy, I never once saw anything that resembled the Batman I know.)

    (There was a great Joker and a great Catwoman. But Batman was nowhere to be seen.)

    So you must had never read ONeill Batman, or Haney Batman, or any Batman that came before the 89 movie.

    I mean you belive it or not, there has being a bunch of Batmens, during all this tame we had being several point of view in the mythology and there is not just one big Batman, that is a comic book myth made by paranoid nerds that need to get a life and stop living in their own mind version of the past.

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    MatteoPG

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    For me the answer is always the same: yes, he decided that he should die, even though it wasn't that hard for him to save him again. Still, I take no issue. Is it in character for comic book's Batman? NO, of course not. But this is another Batman... again, movie adaptations are different.

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    The_Lunact_And_Manic

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    He killed him, he's goddamn Batman, he's supossed to save everybody, even mass murderers and terrorists. It was completely out of character.

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    DeathpooltheT1000

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    @bigcimmerian said:

    He killed him, he's goddamn Batman, he's supossed to save everybody, even mass murderers and terrorists. It was completely out of character.

    Since the year 2000 Batman has killed at least 10 guys in the comics, this by accident or self defense.

    Besides that in Under The Red Hood he saves Jason and leaves The Joker to his death, many people say The Joker survives, by the most random plot advice to save Batman from killing The Joker, The Joker survives an explosion because he is The Joker, but that dont change he leave The Joker to his death, by the fact he decide to save Jason.

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    HighlyEvolved

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    I thought that was a great line.

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    NightHawk89

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    #72  Edited By NightHawk89

    @the_lunact_and_manic said:

    @bigcimmerian said:

    He killed him, he's goddamn Batman, he's supossed to save everybody, even mass murderers and terrorists. It was completely out of character.

    Since the year 2000 Batman has killed at least 10 guys in the comics, this by accident or self defense.

    Besides that in Under The Red Hood he saves Jason and leaves The Joker to his death, many people say The Joker survives, by the most random plot advice to save Batman from killing The Joker, The Joker survives an explosion because he is The Joker, but that dont change he leave The Joker to his death, by the fact he decide to save Jason.

    Yep. I was watching a TAS episode (Cold Comfort) today where Batman, more or less, allows Mr. Freeze to "die"....at least until the camera pans to an empty suit. He even says something along the lines of "I don't think we'll have to deal with Freeze anymore." Not "we don't have to deal with Freeze anytime soon" or even "Mr. Freeze is •_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) on ice." That line tells me he thought Freeze was dead, and yet it was his actions that caused Freeze's "death".

    Of course, Freeze escapes and later reappears in Batman Beyond (btw, Terry's also done the "I don't have to save you" business as well), but TDK Bats isn't the only time he's ever allowed a villain to "die".

    As long as it doesn't become commonplace (he should at least try to save them), I'm fine with it. I think it makes him a little more human (this is why I was fine with Supes killing Zod in MoS....as long as that's the only murder on his conscience), and not some perfect hero that always saves the day. Victories can have failures in them.

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    ganon15

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    #73  Edited By ganon15

    He should use the "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" excuse whenever he faces his villains from now on.

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    TekTheNinja

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    @supbatz said:

    Absolutely. I felt that Bruce was incredibly out of character in that scene. Batman doesn't let anybody die if he can save them. Period.

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    DeathpooltheT1000

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    @nighthawk89: All live action Batman had killed, even Adam West Batman, people really complaint of the last movies and forget they should complaint in the past too.

    Keaton Batman was a terrorist, people defend with Batman killed in the Golden Age, but lets be honest he used guns not bombs.

    Kilmer Batman killed Two Faces using his coin, after telling Dick killing was wrong.

    Clooney Batman killed the franchise and i am sure he killed someone, he leaves Ivy with a very angry Arnie and is obvious he was going to torture her, i mean that show you the guy had problems.

    Adam West Batman also killed, i mean he told all his villains he was going to kill them in the 60s movie, also i think he killed some drunk people too.

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    rogueshadow

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    #76 rogueshadow  Moderator

    @deathpoolthet1000: I just don't care about those films. I mean I have them on DVD and I noticed all that. But they just suck. I'm not one of those, 'old movies are crap', guys, I love the Superman movies, Hulk TV series, I just thought they were all mediocre to bad. I don't place them on the same level of sophistication as the Nolan films, so when flaws like this occur, it bothers me a lot more.

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    MuyJingo

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    There is absolutely no doubt that Bruce committed murder.

    I have no idea why the CV staff and so many members deny it.

    The reason it is unquestionably murder is because Bruce sabotaged the train Ra's was on, knowing that he had no way to get off.

    Before the train sabotage, Ra's was not suicidal and had a way to escape.

    It's exactly the same as cutting the sabotaging the brakes in a car and letting it build up speed, and bailing out while knowing the passenger door won't open.

    Murder, plain and simple.

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    Extremis

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    #78  Edited By Extremis

    Yeah that stupid quote always bothered me as I got older. Probably because I've come to realize it makes no sense.

    He basically committed murder.

    If you can save someone (especially if you're Batman) and you don't, and instead proceed to stand there (using precious time that you could easily use to save then) and tell the person across from you (with a fake growl) that you don't find any obligation in saving their life, basically rubbing it in, then fleeing and saving yourself - then you're a douchey murderer. Plain and simple. Not the Batman I know.

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    Marionettegeist

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    @nighthawk89: All live action Batman had killed, even Adam West Batman, people really complaint of the last movies and forget they should complaint in the past too.

    Keaton Batman was a terrorist, people defend with Batman killed in the Golden Age, but lets be honest he used guns not bombs.

    Kilmer Batman killed Two Faces using his coin, after telling Dick killing was wrong.

    Clooney Batman killed the franchise and i am sure he killed someone, he leaves Ivy with a very angry Arnie and is obvious he was going to torture her, i mean that show you the guy had problems.

    Adam West Batman also killed, i mean he told all his villains he was going to kill them in the 60s movie, also i think he killed some drunk people too.

    But what if I do have a problem with all of those? Not enough to ruin the movies (though none of them are that good anyway) but I do see it as out of character. I don't mind if they seriously have no choice other than letting someone else die but Keaton especially was a sadistic sociopath, he strapped a bomb to a man and smiled as he pushed him off of a bridge!

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    DeathpooltheT1000

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    @dctv3363: As long as you complaint of all of them for the fact all of them did it, its not being a hypocrite that blind itself from the past.

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    russellmania77

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    so for example, if someone dies on earth its considered superman's fault because he has the abilities to know about it and do something about it?

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    MatteoPG

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    @russellmania77: actually some people argue about that, but I don't think so. But it's not really the same thing, is it? They were engaged in combat and Batman put him in the situation of not being able to get off the train, and he also made it so the train would fall to its demise before R'as had anticipated. So he was instrumental in the how R'as was directly abou to die. Also, he kind of says it out loud, that he chooses to let him die.

    It's not like there are a lot of unkowngs here.

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    ghinzdra

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    People put way too much thoughts into it....

    They did this because it sounded cool. That's it. They simply didn't pay much attention to the reasoning.

    As for some kind of moral development it's never mentioned. Like it or not, I'm pretty sure that in Man of Steel

    Superman killing Zod will be directly adressed in the next movies like it's precisely the birth of a character and something he never wants to do again (the scream of mental agony and also some comments of snyder himself ).Nothing like this in TDK trilogy. It just happened (like the dead ninjas, not much thought given here ) .People give some extra powers to Nolan : he obviously ignored some of his past ideas(Gotham in BB and TDK have a completely different feel. It's not only about the place where the shoot took place, he simply changed his vision of gotham. And there's nothing to suggest a change for the better - the dent act is in TDKR and it simply cracked down on criminality not unemployment/lack of education/aging infrastructure -. He simply choosed to ignore the narrows and all this idea of an old and rusty city starting TDK making the city virtually different.)....Althought some nolanite wants to believe everything went out of his head he simply made it up as he went.

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    MuyJingo

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    @ghinzdra said:
    Superman killing Zod will be directly adressed in the next movies like it's precisely the birth of a character and something he never wants to do again (the scream of mental agony and also some comments of snyder himself ).

    Except if he finds himself in the same situation, where the peopel defending that movie have stated there was no possible other way....

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    ganon15

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    He let Ra's die, even though it's not the first time he's let someday die without killing them.

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    Knightfall225

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    #86  Edited By Knightfall225

    The GCPD killed him nt batman

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    _Gaff_

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    People, Trust me. It takes a lot more to kill Ra's al Ghul than a run away train. He is alive. Batman knew it wouldn't kill him.

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    MuyJingo

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    @_gaff_ said:

    People, Trust me. It takes a lot more to kill Ra's al Ghul than a run away train. He is alive. Batman knew it wouldn't kill him.

    Ra's isn't immortal in the Nolan movies....

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    PapiNacho

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    Hmm I don't think so, Batman didn't put him in the train. It's like saying I am murdering a child right now for not donating 5 dollars to United Way. I am not responsible for that situation even thought I might be inclined to help. Now I kicked a child of a building and didn't save him then I would be a murderer.

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    Divine_Disorder

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    Ra's was a ninja/martial artist. He basically taught Batman everything he knows. He could have found a way off that train himself, but chose not to. Looked more like suicide to me than murder.

    As for the car chase that left a trail of destruction, Alfred explicitly states after that scene, "It's a miracle no one was killed!" So there, for anyone losing sleep over that bit, Batman didn't kill any innocent bystanders either.

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    deaditegonzo

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    Bruce isnt "technically" guilty of anything. If you wanted to argue what he did was unethical, then fine, but he didnt murder Ras.

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    SilverPool

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    #92  Edited By SilverPool

    It kind of qualifies, but I ignore it because it's a cliche that's used in tons of Superhero films. I think it's much worse in the Spiderman films, with EVERY villain dying at the end just to keep sequels from spawning. Like Venom, seriously?

    Bruce probably has a different view of killing than some others. It is a kind of grey area and isn't "definitely" murder.

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    SilverPool

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    @dctv3363 said:

    @deathpoolthet1000 said:

    Didnt Batman killed Ras in the comics?

    I have this crazy idea he did it and he almost did it again.

    Besides in the Arkham Games he does the same, he let Ras to his own destiny too.

    Is like Superman killing Zod, people gets too mad for something i am sure it happened before.

    Well in the comics and Arkham games Ras will just come back via Lazarus Pit.

    Lol, well in comics, shouldn't he not have a problem with killing anyone since being revived is commonplace?

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    Marionettegeist

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    @dctv3363 said:

    @deathpoolthet1000 said:

    Didnt Batman killed Ras in the comics?

    I have this crazy idea he did it and he almost did it again.

    Besides in the Arkham Games he does the same, he let Ras to his own destiny too.

    Is like Superman killing Zod, people gets too mad for something i am sure it happened before.

    Well in the comics and Arkham games Ras will just come back via Lazarus Pit.

    Lol, well in comics, shouldn't he not have a problem with killing anyone since being revived is commonplace?

    To the readers yes, but the characters don't usually acknowledge that fact.

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    Douglatron

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    Speaking of al Ghuls, the argument could be made that Batman kills Talia in a much more direct fashion. For the greater good to be sure, but still, in Rises he was lobbing missiles at the truck which appears to have lead to both Talia and the driver's deaths during the bomb chase. Batman just loves killing those al Ghuls. It's a good thing Dusan wasn't in the movie.

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    JordanIsntSuper

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    Superman snapped a dude's neck but at least that was done to save innocent people. Batman let Al ghul die for no good reason. He could have saved him then had him arrested.

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    Anjales_II

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    While I don't really consider it Batman killing Ra's, I think they could have had a stronger exchange.

    After Batman defeats Ra's, he tells him "There is another way, I can save Gotham. I can save you". Ra's replies: "No. There is not. This is the end of the road for me." Batman simply glares at him then glides off, and Ra's closes his eyes before the train crashes.

    An encounter like this would have strengthened both characters' morals and point of views.

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    deaditegonzo

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    @anjales: I was preparing to call BS on just about anything you could have said, and then you actually wrote dialogue superior to the actual movie dialogue. That would have been more impressive, for both characters.

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    Anjales_II

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    #99  Edited By Anjales_II

    Thanks, I just feel it's something comic book Batman would have, although I wasn't really annoyed with how it actually played out before people mentioned it. And it was still a bad ass line, I guess the producer focused more on make him more bad ass than emotional.

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    LaserLambert

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    #100  Edited By LaserLambert

    Ummmm... everyone here does know that he KILLED TWO-FACE right? he didn't "not save" Two-Face, he pushed him off a building, because sending him to jail would have meant letting other criminals out. sure he had a gun trained on Gordon or Gordon's son or whatever, but he didn't have to push him off a building to stop him from pointing a pistol at them.

    Also he killed Talia, how could anyone see it differently? He knocked her car off the overpass or whatever and then she was alive for a few seconds, then she DIED.

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