@PsychoKnights said:

In regards to Batman, there were definitely some images that appeared to be gay in the older days of comics, but those were few and far between. Perhaps the writers in those days were trying to portray Batman as gay, or perhaps they were making an inside joke thinking nobody would notice. it could even be that they were genuinely oblivious living in a less sexually deviant age (though there are some scenes which I cannot imagine being completely innocent).

But even in that alone, the fact it was all still published and is a conversation 70 years later should tell you something. Absolutely nobody had the nerve to make insinuations like that at all. It was unthinkable and even in the 50's, married couples like Lucy & Desi weren't even shown to share a bed yet Batman and Robin did it years before. We don't know at all what the intentions were but looking at them in retrospect is shocking.

Regardless, it makes no more sense to say that Batman is a gay icon because of a few panels in seventy years worth of stories than it would to say that Batman is a comedic icon because he makes jokes in some issues.

People made jokes back then though. They didn't have comics wherein it would even be slightly implied two male characters were in a sexual relationship.

I'm not sure where the double standard is on this one. I've never heard anyone say that Ivy and Harley are lesbians, but the producer of the show did say that in her mind Xena and Gabrielle were lesbians. In the first case, there is no reason to think that their is a homosexual relationship except to fuel fanboys' wet dreams, and in the second, there is a very good reason to think that Xena is gay.

Oh it's been heavily implied and discussed that Harley & Ivy had a lesbian affair for years and plenty of creators have commented on it. There's also just as much to substantiate Xena being gay as there is Batman. Xena still had sex with men, she still had lovers but there was a definite lesbian subtext and it's no secret at all that in society two women kissing is much more accepted than two men.

The whole Batman-being-gay thing is a strong metaphor and it resonates enough so that it is always a continuing discussion. You don't have to look to far to see it but if it doesn't resonate with you, it doesn't have to mean anything for you personally.

Batman is so gay, it looped around and made him straight.

Banging Selina Kyle after is the gayest thing he could have done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in9SiDtJLaU

Grant Morrison can suck a ****

Bob Kane knew what he was making

@HexThis: I'm not sure if you were somewhat speaking to me in the post undermine, but I must point out that Morrison is directly stating that it isn't that Batman is homosexual but that he spends his time around men. It is not that he is flamboyant. It is not that he is actually gay. It is not how he dresses or acts or anything else. It is simply that he prefers to spend time around males. That is simply unacceptable. The logic goes something like....

Batman likes spending time around Robin and Alfred. Batman can get all the women he wants. Real Men like to spend time around women. Since Batman doesn't he must not be a real man. Batman is clearly male, but not masculine (in this context masculine means to want to get laid every second of every day). He must be Feminine, What is a Feminine male? Someone who is gay. Batman is gay.

That line of thought just as so much wrong with it really is incomprehensible how people can actually think like that.

As to Ivy and Harley. I would classify them as just really great friends, sisters even. The idea of a sexual relationship is akin to the idea that twins would make a great threesome that some people like to dream up. The idea is purely fan service and fictional to the canon of both characters.

As to Xena and Gabriel... there is a lot more than "subtext" in the show from bathing scenes to kisses to outright declaration of love and such. That is not to say EITHER are "lesbian" in terms of the single definite sexuality way of thinking. In that way of thinking they'd be bi-sexual, but personally I subscribe to the idea that while one's preferences may be more towards one gender or the other or neither as far as sexual attraction, or lust, love is a whole other ball of wax and it is completely possible that something that is completely "straight" to love another and have that love turn sexual. This is the type of relationship Xena and Gabriel have and i would classify it more in terms of Soul Mates where as I might classify Ivy and Harley as "Soul sisters" and the Bat-family as, you guessed it, family.

real men(soldiers) have always had problems working with women on a battle field

Batman is forever on a battle field and what is being missed is how many women he has slept with(believe that its a thread)

and that he has had numerous Batgirls/Batwomen

@Durakken said:

@HexThis: I'm not sure if you were somewhat speaking to me in the post undermine...

Oh no, not at all.

@Durakken said:

It is not that he is flamboyant. It is not that he is actually gay. It is not how he dresses or acts or anything else. It is simply that he prefers to spend time around males. That is simply unacceptable. The logic goes something like....

I do see what you mean about it being sad that male camaraderie for some people equals gay but it's not that at all. In that little snippet that's what Morrison described but people had felt for a long time now there was a strong gay subtext or metaphor. It wasn't just on the basis that Batman and Robin shared company.

@Durakken said:

As to Xena and Gabriel... there is a lot more than "subtext" in the show from bathing scenes to kisses to outright declaration of love and such. That is not to say EITHER are "lesbian" in terms of the single definite sexuality way of thinking. In that way of thinking they'd be bi-sexual, but personally I subscribe to the idea that while one's preferences may be more towards one gender or the other or neither as far as sexual attraction, or lust, love is a whole other ball of wax and it is completely possible that something that is completely "straight" to love another and have that love turn sexual. This is the type of relationship Xena and Gabriel have and i would classify it more in terms of Soul Mates where as I might classify Ivy and Harley as "Soul sisters" and the Bat-family as, you guessed it, family.

Fair enough.

Ultimately, all I'm saying and all most people who rouse the whole gay Batman thing is that there are a lot of themes, a lot of metaphors, a lot of things about Batman that may resonate with gay people and that this is OKAY. I personally believe Selina Kyle is the love of his life BUT I do find the subtext between Robin and Batman to be compelling and actually very positive if that's how it happens to resonate with people. He's a hero and an icon, everyone has a take on what about his story or his character or allure informs us about him.

haha wow i love Grant Morrison but he really is a tool.

@HexThis: I don't have any problem with the idea that Batman could be gay. What I have a problem with is is Morrison implication and I don't very much like that people think that there is a some subtext that just isn't there, especially in this situation because it arises from ideas around gay people be pedophiles and/or men should not be trusted to be with minors cuz they could be pedophiles. Any subtext you think you see is not from there actually being subtext there, but rather our culture has had some very bad shifts in their views on certain things and that has changed how people view something. For example, the picture above with Bruce and Dick waking in the same bed people are seeing as some sort of sexual thing, but you'd be hard pressed to find any to have that view over 20 years ago.

"All these women fancy him and they all wear fetish clothes and jump around rooftops to get to him. He doesn’t care—he’s more interested in hanging out with the old guy and the kid"

I think that just shows how crazily obsessive Batman is about his 'mission' to rid crime, and that he isn't very interested in relationships.

Who cares

@Selinaky said:

"All these women fancy him and they all wear fetish clothes and jump around rooftops to get to him. He doesn’t care—he’s more interested in hanging out with the old guy and the kid"

I think that just shows how crazily obsessive Batman is about his 'mission' to rid crime, and that he isn't very interested in relationships.

Or it could show that Morrison doesn't pay attention... Batman loves Catwoman and is in a relationship with her to some degree so that sentence is idiotic.

catwomen???

@HexThis:

Hey, I've got a lot of comments that need responses, so I'm probably not going to give as long of a response as I would like, but I'll try to give good thoughts quickly.

I agree that it was very shocking that these things saw paper, but I am assuming that they were not being reviewed by many people back then. My understanding of comics at the time is that they were not all that seriously considered or analyzed. Still, it definitely is something worth discussing, I just think it is a ridiculous jump to say that a few panels makes Batman a gay concept.

It is true that jokes are more common place than homosexual allusions, but it is still a giant leap to say that a character is an icon based on a few panels. If Morrison wants to say that Batman played an important role in making homosexuality more mainstream...well, I still think that would be a bit of a stretch, but it is not completely unreasonable. Saying that Batman is gay icon/concept/whatever is not.

Regarding the Xena thing, you are just plain wrong. The producer said Xena had a lesbain relationship in her mind. No comic creator, even Morrison, has said that is how he/she wrote the character.

Certainly lesbian relationships are generally found less distasteful than gay relationships, but we were talking specific pop culture scenearios not generalities.

Happen to have any links to Harley/Ivy editor lesbian discussions. I had not heard about that.

You can make a metaphor between any two things. It does not mean it is a metaphor based on reality.

@Selinaky:

I always wondered what Morrison thought Batman was supposed to do? "Hey, Poison Ivy is killing people, but she looks super sexy. Maybe I should bend her over the Batmobile and...

It's just a stupid observation on Morrison's part.

Whenever this argument is brought up I generally think of below...

Those old comics could've been innocent, but don't underestimate what kind of hidden jokes a bunch of guys in an office can conjure up together. I can almost imagine The writers, editors, colorists, inkers and letterers having a good chuckle when they released episodes with "Rainbow Batman" and the story about Joker's "boner". If anyone has never seen Rainbow the TV series they wouldn't know how many rude subliminal texts were hidden in a kids show.

@Red_Jack:

I don't know about the Rainbow tv series, but I tend to agree with your view of the writers making jokes in the series which would go over the average reader's head.

@ApatheticAvenger said:

Here's a recent interview where Morrison talks about his "gay Batman" statement in Playboy and what he meant by it. Again, Batman himself ultimately isn't gay, but the whole "jumping off of rooftops at night in black leather" thing is pretty gay.

And basically I said what I said in the book, that you can easily dial up the black-leather-fetishistic-night-dwelling aspects of Batman, and the masculinity of Batman, and get a pretty good gay Batman. But as I said, ultimately he’s not gay because he has no sex life, really. All he is is an adventurer.. sometimes they show him with girls, sometimes he never seems to be going out with girls.
But they just took off the cool sound-bite which is ‘Batman is utterly, utterly gay, says Morrison’! That was it, I had to deal with that – people were really f**king mad at me for that one.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/voices/2012/09/grant-morrison-gay-batman-superheroes-wonder-woman

Morrison thinks he was taken out of context after making the exact same statement again v.v

Black leather nor night dwelling is "gay." Leather if anything, is more related to BDSM which is fetishistic and sexual in nature, but not gay. And not to mention Batman doesn't wear leather nor do any of his villains >.>

I don't get what he means by not having a sex life...again sounds like he doesn't know what he is actually talking about and this type of talk actually gives me the idea that what he does when he is "writing" is that he flips through old issues until he comes across something that stands out and then reads that. Since Bruce's sex life doesn't stand out to him he hasn't read about it much...which is kinda baffling considering Talia and Jezebel Jet who Morrison has written about/created...

@ApatheticAvenger: saying that if you combine the elements of the fetish garb and masculine nature of a brooding man beating the pulp out of criminals with his bare hands together

Ummm... I don't see how any of those combined or separate have anything to do with "gayness" sexual or cultural, unless you have a very sickly warped view of "gayness" in any sense.

running around at night dressed as a bat

Again what? How is that gay-like? If anything that is a crazy Furry. Not gay.

Sex life... What the fuck do you want out of the comic? A porn comic or something? Batman isn't a romance book nor is it porn, so why would you expect to see a relationship that isn't to serve the story? He's not an eternal bachelor. He was married in the golden age... and he has married in various elseworld tales too. How bout Sasha Bordeaux? i don't get where you are saying that he doesn't have a sex life because we see he does. I don't see where you are saying that he doesn't have a relationship life Because he does. Is it the most "important" thing to him? Not exactly, but it is far from he is "a-sexual" or some nonsense like that. In fact it might even be the opposite when you come down to it, but i already wrote 1 comic essay today so let's not today lol

@ApatheticAvenger: Bruce's relationship is not "disfunctional." It is different. It works for them and it is their relationship. When someone says sex life they mean to talk about them having sex and Bruce has a shit ton of sex so to say he doesn't have a sex life is idiotic. Like wise if you are inaccurately using the term to mean having a monogamous relationship between two individuals who love each other... well he has had that too with 3 to 6 women, Selina, Sasha, Talia, Silver, Vicki, and Katherine.

I also don't see anything "gay" about Batman in modern, silver, or golden age. What people seem to be doing is associating negative traits with being gay to apply to batman to say he is gay because batman has those negative traits possibly, but those traits having to do with what is culturally considered to be "gay." There are then other people that are taking a few things silver/golden age and reading them through the filter of our modern eyes and thinking "that looks gay" when in reality what you are doing are making sick assumption about men and gays because propaganda has taught us in the modern age that certain action that are normal are perverse. Then we have arguments that are positive or neutral, which could be associated with being gay, but are more associated with other things or are just perfectly normal.

At best what Morrison is describing is not "gay", but a sadomasochistic asexual... which isn't right either and impossible as Sadomasochism is deriving sexual pleasure from giving/taking that pain making him not asexual. So what is being said is unsound and invalid...ie The arguments so far put forward are illogical

@Chaos Burn said:

@Funrush: Grant isn't saying Bruce Wayne is a homosexual... he is saying that the idea of Batman appears gay in the stereotypical sense

Seconded

lol it seems that too many people didn't read the article and think Grant Morrison was calling Batman a homosexual.....

He's gay, thats why he had a child with Thalia Al Ghul. WTF

Anyone who's read Morrison's take on Batman knows that what he said in the article doesn't play out in his interpretation of the character.

The only thing of Grant Morrison's that I've ever enjoyed was his run on JLA and maybe All Star Superman. In everything else it's like he's trying too hard to be deep, like an Alan Moore or something. Sorry Mr. Morrison, you're no Alan Moore. Alan's stuff is easier to understand and more powerful.

Oh, but yeah...if Batman was a real-life person. Totally gay.

no no no sir I'm sorry

you are incorrect.

Grant Morrison is a genius.

how the hell could he be gay, hes hooked up with more females then any other superhero. hes always getting it in, notice he doesnt have any real popular significant other? because there is none, hes got hella hoes, yea hes got an old dude, who served his family his WHOLE life whose like a farther figure, and hes got the robins so hes got a badass kid running around helping him in dire situations and theyre ophans, which he is and theres no baby mamma, so no obligation requirements. batmans badass.

Oh for crying out loud.....

Grant must hate talking to some comic book fans. Especially the ones who take his stories and his quotes right out of context.

Basically, when he says Batman was gay, he was probably having a laugh with his comment: not a deep serious scientifical analysis on Bruce Wayne's psyche.

The early material was very camp and very gay. Many things in the comics came across as homoerotic innuendo, even if they were innocent.

Rainbow Batman, a whiney Robin talking to Batman like he's his lover, both of them sleeping in the same bed, the 60s tv series show, talking about Joker's 'boner' in one comic, plus many more.

How can anyone be offended by Grant's comment? Am I being harsh in thinking some people are just dumb here?

@ReVamp said:

@War Killer said:

Batman's not gay. End of discussion.

He didn't say he was though. In fact he explicitly said he was hetrosexual.

@Dernman said:

His reasons are idiotic.

Explain. Pwease, that is.

I, for one, can definitely see what he's saying. I don't agree with him, of course, but I think its definitely an interesting point of view. I just think most of the people are reading this too literally and aren't understand the context behind what he's trying to say. Or perhaps they are and they just don't agree, but I don't think that's the case.

Batman hooks up with women all the time, so sexual orientation isn't the issue here. I read the full article and Morrison kind of has a point in that Batman IS a guy who runs away from women in fetish gear. I sort of see Batman's problematic view of women (i.e. the minute he falls in love, they turn evil, Oracle was functionally asexual due to her paralysis, and the other Batgirls were more like estranged daughters than anything else) as a manifestation of the kind of prepubescent origins of the character as essentially a pulp hero for little boys. Robin was meant to be a sort of reader avatar from the very beginning, making Batman the kind of best friend/big brother/superfun father that any kid could ever want. Because of the original target audience, sexuality (even asexuality as an orientation proper) just doesn't factor.

In conclusion, Batman may manifest certain desires of "gay culture," just as he resonates with straight culture. Morrison's talking thematically here, I think. The idea of Batman as a "sexual deviant" is the key, because Morrison interprets Bruce's Dead Parents Syndrome as the key to drastically desexualizing the Batman even when armed to the teeth with fetish gear and this particular element, coupled with the inherent flamboyance of the mask/cape/cowl set, Batman's distrust of women, his overwhelmingly male surrogate family (not too mention the polychrome costumes of the male-dominated Justice League), the suppression of his eccentric "double-life" during the day, his closeted secret identity and obstinate refusal to just settle down with a woman and have kids, at the very least means that he's not sexually normative. So I guess he's "gay" in the loosest possible sense.

His reasoning is that he ignores women to save a city. Just because you don't laid every night when you have the opportunity to doesn't exactly mean you're gay. Grant Morrison again trying to grab headlines.