Batman & Detective Comics Rebirth Discussion Thread

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Jakai

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#1  Edited By Jakai

Batman: Rebirth & Detective Comics: Rebirth

Variant Cover for Detective Comics: Rebirth
Variant Cover for Detective Comics: Rebirth

Batman: Rebirth

No one has ever stopped the Caped Crusader. Not The Joker. Not Two-Face. Not even the entire Justice League. But how does Batman confront a new hero who wants to save the city from the Dark Knight? We begin to find out more of just what makes the Dark Knight the man he is.

Detective Comics Rebirth

Throughout his years, Batman has learned to prepare for every situation. Seeing that something is coming that he can't face alone, The Dark Knight approaches his cousin Kate Kane, the Batwoman, and has her lead a group to begin facing these challenges. Together, they recruit Batman's protege Red Robin (Tim Drake), The Spoiler (Stephanie Brown), Orphan (Cassandra Cain), and hero-in-training/ex-villain Clayface (Basil Hawkins) to form a team to protect Gotham... and whatever else Batman is preparing for.

————————————————————————————————————————————

Both the Batman & Detective Comics Rebirth comic lines are part of the DC Rebirth Initiative. DC Rebirth is a massive DC Universe initiative published in 2016. The event follows the ending of The New 52, a publishing era that rebooted DC continuity in 2011 after the Flashpoint crossover. Its name is taken from the earlier series' Green Lantern: Rebirth and The Flash: Rebirth, both written by Geoff Johns and focusing on returning their characters to an earlier status quo while updating the premises for new audiences. The initiative is intended to synchronize and harmonize the Post-Flashpoint continuity and the Post-Crisis continuity.

An interesting detail about the Detective Comics and Action Comics volumes is that the issue numbers return to their standpoint just before The New 52, as opposed to all other comics lines beginning their runs back at Issue #1.

The purpose of this thread is to prevent clutter and allow all material regarding the current Batman and Detective Comics Rebirth comic run to be discussed in a single thread. As of this thread's creation, the Batman Rebirth line has reached it's 21st issue under the writing of Tom King. Detective Comics Rebirth has reached it's 955th issue under the writing of James Tynion IV.

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ZariusII

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Thought it was pretty resourceful of Shiva to strip every Bat-Fam member naked before chaining them up...it did'nt ultimately keep them down, but why does'nt every villain outside of perverse fanfiction think about that?

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entropy_aegis

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#3  Edited By entropy_aegis

I'm guessing we can discuss All Star and the Batman/Shadow book here too?

So picked up the crossover, it was going smoothly, not extraordinary but not bad either and fairly intriguing. But then Snyderism reared its ugly head.

I just..I just cant take it anymore, I'm tired of Snyder, I'm tired of even talking about Snyder. Do the editors sleep through these books?

In the end it is revealed that Shadow is actually Henri Ducard. Throughout the book Snyder and Orlando inserted Shadow in to Gotham's history before we ended up with that reveal. I was ok with that but taking something so fundamental to Batman's character and literally giving it to a character that DC DOESN'T EVEN OWN is crossing the line big time.

How does genius Snyder now explain Morgan Ducard and Maya Ducard? does this guy even stop and think "wtf am I writing". This isn't even like older crossovers. This is actually canon because Orlando wrote the prelude in Batman Annual #1, Snyder just f*cked up the entire mythology for one cliff hanger. I hate to say this but this guy just comes across as an obnoxious troll now.

Now how exactly are future writers supposed to use Ducard? what happens to Maya Ducard whom Gleason has been working on (and going somewhere with unlike those POS characters Harper and Duke that Snyder has an obscene crush on ).

Shame on Doyle and the editors.

Just imagine if DC did a canon Superman/Star Wars crossover and it was revealed that Brainiac is actually Darth Sidious or if they did a Batman/Doc Savage crossover and revealed that Bane was actually Doc with fake memories all along, that's what Snyder just did I feel nauseous even thinking about this.

Also I notice when he has to pull this crap he does so with a co writer. He effed Mr Freeze and Calendar Man previously in books he co wrote with Tynion and King. He doesn't even have the guts to do it himself.

I hope Duke dies a horrible,miserable death and his corpse is desecrated beyond recognition and then fed to Croc who shits the remains in Slaughter Swamp where he is resurrected as a new villain called Shit Man. This is what Snyder is doing to Batman mythos.

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Black_Arrow

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@entropy_aegis: Snyder screwed everything up because he tried to reference Batman Begins. Where else Ducard is a sWord wielding man in the Middle of snowy mountains. While Ducard is Just an alias for his real name. He followed the movies while completely disregarding the comics.

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entropy_aegis

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@black_arrow: Precisely, he just wanted to use the movie twist to end his book on a cliffhanger. Ofcourse there's still ample time for a misdirect or reversal which I hope happens. If not then a future writer will invalidate this crossover.

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Lhynn

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#6  Edited By Lhynn

@entropy_aegis: Ah, good post bro. im 100% with you, its why i just quit reading his tripe.

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TDK_1997

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There is so much to be mad about this week's Batman comics. Life first of all, the whole cliffhanger s**t that Snyder did with the Batman/Shadow mini and after that with Tynion's god awful arc in Detective Comics. It wasn't a good week for Batman and for a fan of his.

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Epyon007

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While The league of shadows arc in Detective Comics has been ok. I was thrilled about the button crossover with the Flash. Really thought it was Tom King's best issue on Batman so far. Not sure if that's because the main part of the story was essentially written by Johns. Also took a break from some of the side characters and just focused on Batman and Flash. Looking forward to seeing Bruce and Thomas Wayne in the next issue.

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TDK_1997

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DC just announced that the finale of "The Button" in Batman #22 will be scripted by Joshua Williamson rather than Tom King. King said that he wants to give the fans the best possible Batman stories and Josh came up with a better plot for the issue than himself.

http://www.newsarama.com/34282-the-button-gets-shuffled-as-williamson-scripts-batman-22-flash-22-delayed.html

If you ask me, this is yet another occasion in which King bails from the book and after that gets credit for the issue by the fans. He might say that he isn't the one that actually wrote it but fans continue to say that he is behind it in a way. I wouldn't be surprised if Batman #21 was written by Williamson as well because when you look at it, it is extraordinarily good compared to King's other work.

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Black_Arrow

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@tdk_1997: Lol I can't believe that he basically bailed out on a partner. If Williamson really wrote Batman 21, then I am glad he is going to write 22. Now I am wondering how much of the heavy lifting Seeley did during the Grayson arc.

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Black_Arrow

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#11  Edited By Black_Arrow
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entropy_aegis

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LOL what?

Does anyone feel that King is just a lackey?

First of all I am Gotham remains incomplete without the Orlando driven NOTMM crossover.

I am Suicide was used to poorly launch the JL VS SS event

I am Bane was supposed to about a life and death battle only for DC to announce Bane: Conquest

The Rooptops arc was added at the eleventh hour.

Now this? wtf?

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TDK_1997

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@tdk_1997: Lol I can't believe that he basically bailed out on a partner. If Williamson really wrote Batman 21, then I am glad he is going to write 22. Now I am wondering how much of the heavy lifting Seeley did during the Grayson arc.

Yeah, it seems like King isn't doing anything much at all but he is like coming up with the story but he just cannot execute it at all and that is why he handles it to the writer that will write the crossover or the story that the Batman story will tie into. Pure genius.

Also, I really like the preview and I have to say that it doesn't look as bad. Thank god that it's not only Snyder but he is along with Orlando.

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Bat_Girl_CC

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#14  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@zariusii said:

Thought it was pretty resourceful of Shiva to strip every Bat-Fam member naked before chaining them up...it did'nt ultimately keep them down, but why does'nt every villain outside of perverse fanfiction think about that?

Yup, it sounds simple, but its actually very smart, when you think about it...very often, we see heros getting out of tought situations where they are being held hostages, by having stuff hiden on their clothing, gear, etc...by striping them down you make sure that doens't happen.

Also, as a Cassandra Cain fan, i like the fact that it was stated that no-one could possibly do what Cass is doing now, and that is taking down dozens, if not hundreds of ninjas together at the same time, and doing it solo...Batwoman's father even commented that you would need someone like Superman for something like that...and i also like the fact, that Cass rescued the rest of the team in time for the final fight/the final showdown...i mean, she could have go and rescue them only after she had defeated everyone alone...this tells me that Cass thinks that the other members of the team are needed to save Gotham from this threat, and that's good, because 1) it gives the reader the sense that "this is it" the threat is just too big, we need everybody together to win this one...and 2) it will likely mean that Cass won't have to go all out and kill Shiva, thus not going "out-of-character"...for those who don't know, Cass is even more against killing than Batman is.

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JamesWayne

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#15  Edited By JamesWayne

@bat_girl_cc: While I thought thought the Cass moment was awesome, I think Tynion over did it. Is she was able to beat the entirety of the league single handed, when every other character could only do a handful, Tynion essentially made her a win all button. It's the main problem I have with his run. He takes a certain character every arc, focuses on them to the detriment of every other character, especially Bruce with consistent verbal and actual showings of how said character is better and surpasses him. Shiva and Bruce used to be rivals, with Shiva still being decisively better than him. While Cass would beat him to an even greater degree than Shiva in a h2h, it was shown in the past that Bruce with standard equip makes it a real toss up, not saying he would win, but it was plausibly debatable. To give Cass her big moment here, Tynion retconned the Bruce Shiva rivalry, and made every other character absolute chumps compared to what is essentially fodder ninja. The league of shadows in this story were never really a threat, Cass just had to find herself apparantly.

I would have much preferred a one on one fight against shiva, h2h, where Cass wins and the rest of the team fights the league. Cass still shows she's better than ANY of them in h2h, best in the DCU, but Tynion wouldn't need to retcon the Shiva Bruce rivalry, wouldn't need to make Ra's al Gul the easy mode of the league, wouldn't have had to have every single member lose. Why would Batwing just stand there? HOW could clayface lose. Honestly, Clayface should have just laughed at everything and ended this in a second.

Cass deserves her moment, and while she got it, I think Tynion overdid it with how he wrote the story and the constant comparisons to Bruce are annoying me about this book. I don't think Bruce is going to do much next issue. I think he will lose and Cass will beat shiva on on one to finish it. Makes no sense, because with gadgets that shouldn't happen. But it's consistent with how Tynion wants to show how great these characters are. He did it with Tim and is starting to do it with Azrael also. I still think the book is really good, it's well written and gives characters that were forgotten a chance to come back and more importantly, it gives fans who identified with these characters a reason to fall in love with them all over again. I think this is exactly what DC needed and I don't think it would be fair to focus solely on the negatives about a book that is clearly written as a love letter to fans of the classic Batfam by someone who is clearly passionate about the source material. I just wish Tynion himself was doing it in a better way than "LOOK everyone!! Batman can't do it! who else could!!??" The only cool thing he's done happened off panel, we never saw him lose to fifty colony soldiers, we actually saw him lose to 4.

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entropy_aegis

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@zariusii said:

Thought it was pretty resourceful of Shiva to strip every Bat-Fam member naked before chaining them up...it did'nt ultimately keep them down, but why does'nt every villain outside of perverse fanfiction think about that?

It didn't matter did it? nor did their wounds, they all got back up off panel. If the writer cant be bothered to actually write then what's the point?

I'm just waiting for the next issue so that I can rip this entire arc and then drop this crappy book along with ASB and Batman. I've had enough with the astonishingly poor quality Bat books.

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TDK_1997

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@zariusii said:

Thought it was pretty resourceful of Shiva to strip every Bat-Fam member naked before chaining them up...it did'nt ultimately keep them down, but why does'nt every villain outside of perverse fanfiction think about that?

It didn't matter did it? nor did their wounds, they all got back up off panel. If the writer cant be bothered to actually write then what's the point?

I'm just waiting for the next issue so that I can rip this entire arc and then drop this crappy book along with ASB and Batman. I've had enough with the astonishingly poor quality Bat books.

But man, aren't you excited for yet another big revelation from Batman's past in ASB? It's the first ally, it's something that has been haunting Batman for years but we just haven't ever heard of it. It sounds right, doesn't it? LOL

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Bat_Girl_CC

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#18  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@bat_girl_cc: While I thought thought the Cass moment was awesome, I think Tynion over did it. Is she was able to beat the entirety of the league single handed, when every other character could only do a handful, Tynion essentially made her a win all button. It's the main problem I have with his run. He takes a certain character every arc, focuses on them to the detriment of every other character, especially Bruce with consistent verbal and actual showings of how said character is better and surpasses him. Shiva and Bruce used to be rivals, with Shiva still being decisively better than him. While Cass would beat him to an even greater degree than Shiva in a h2h, it was shown in the past that Bruce with standard equip makes it a real toss up, not saying he would win, but it was plausibly debatable. To give Cass her big moment here, Tynion retconned the Bruce Shiva rivalry, and made every other character absolute chumps compared to what is essentially fodder ninja. The league of shadows in this story were never really a threat, Cass just had to find herself apparantly.

I would have much preferred a one on one fight against shiva, h2h, where Cass wins and the rest of the team fights the league. Cass still shows she's better than ANY of them in h2h, best in the DCU, but Tynion wouldn't need to retcon the Shiva Bruce rivalry, wouldn't need to make Ra's al Gul the easy mode of the league, wouldn't have had to have every single member lose. Why would Batwing just stand there? HOW could clayface lose. Honestly, Clayface should have just laughed at everything and ended this in a second.

Cass deserves her moment, and while she got it, I think Tynion overdid it with how he wrote the story and the constant comparisons to Bruce are annoying me about this book. I don't think Bruce is going to do much next issue. I think he will lose and Cass will beat shiva on on one to finish it. Makes no sense, because with gadgets that shouldn't happen. But it's consistent with how Tynion wants to show how great these characters are. He did it with Tim and is starting to do it with Azrael also. I still think the book is really good, it's well written and gives characters that were forgotten a chance to come back and more importantly, it gives fans who identified with these characters a reason to fall in love with them all over again. I think this is exactly what DC needed and I don't think it would be fair to focus solely on the negatives about a book that is clearly written as a love letter to fans of the classic Batfam by someone who is clearly passionate about the source material. I just wish Tynion himself was doing it in a better way than "LOOK everyone!! Batman can't do it! who else could!!??" The only cool thing he's done happened off panel, we never saw him lose to fifty colony soldiers, we actually saw him lose to 4.

I think we have to consider the fact, that as Tim Drake put it, the Detective Comics current team, is pretty much like "Batman's private justice league"...i mean:

Batman: Top-tier fighter; one of the best leaders on the planet; one of the best strategist's on the planet; one of the smartest persons on the planet; one of the best detectives on the planet; full of resources for gear, equipment, tech, etc.

Batwoman: Pretty much a female-Batman, and capabilities-wise they've been hyping her up to be a female-Batman more now than ever.

Cassandra Cain: Most capable fighter in the world, always knows her opponents next moves before they actually make them, and she's so fast in close-quarters that sometimes she even appears to have super-speed.

Batwing: Has a Batman-Beyond like-suit, which allows him to fight metas and he also has a genius-level intelect.

Clayface: Can shapeshift; very strong; is almost invulnerable; pretty much invencible in a random encounter against most opponents.

Spoiler: She's so smart and resoursfull that she can take anyone out with one touch on one single button...

When you have a team like this, PLOT is bound to play a key role, on this team stories...i mean, its like in the real Justice League but obviously to a smaller degree, i mean look at most members of the JLA, most of them can single-handily take on almost any super-powered being in the universe and have a good chance of winning...but you still have to "sell" that there are threats big enough to challenge this team, and you have to make them struggle for the story to not become boring, i mean what i'm saying is, this team is in a way too powerfull for its own good, which means that sometimes the writter, on this case James Tynion will have to look the other way, when writting his stories on this book, because he has characters that can solo entire teams one's with prep others don't even need it...

I don't think that Tynion rebooted the Batman vs Shiva history, because that history had already been rebooted by Flashpoint...in the current continuity, Batman has only faced Shiva once and he lost but she poisoned him before engaging him in hand-to-hand...any other ocasion it toke place off-panel.

I also don't think that Tynion over did it, as i pointed out on a comment that i made earlier on this thread, Cass rescued the others in time for the final fight...if Tnion wantted, he could have Cass solo'ing everyone, and only rescuing the others after the fight was finished...but he didn't, and i think it was great.

I agree that this is a great book and it has the best writter for it, thats what matters at the end of the day, right? :)

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JamesWayne

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@bat_girl_cc: Yeah I for sure agree that Tynion is the best writer for this book. And I understand the plot point, usually when reading a team book, my motto is "you're character is underperforming, just wait, they'll get their moment." My issue here, and really it's the only issue I have wit the book, is that Bruce's role is that of support, he supports the main character of each arc, and Tynion proceeds to make the unnecessary comparisons. I think Tynion is aware of the plot point also, because he has Shiva state that she would have wanted to fight bruce for real if given the chance, but seeing as how she destroyed him three issues prior, that wouldn't make sense. I think that was Tynion's way of saying, guys, I know this fight should take longer than what I showed, but this is Cass's story and I only have 6 issues to do it in. As a primarily Batman fan, considering how he's been depicted pre and post 52 though, it does get a bit annoying to see him lose constantly so others could triumph. My main concern is that he won't get his own arc, he'll maintain being support for each and every character arc until they all get one. He's performed better against shiva, especially in Death in the Family, and against Cass (with gadgets, without it, I don't think he stands a chance. Obivously not a one move win, but a desicive victory for her each time). The Cass fight I'm referring to was in her own series actually (based on your pic and name, I'm sure you know it), they were gassed with something that made them aggressive and they fought to a stand still. Also the Ra's twist was unnecessary.

And let me be clear, I would never bat an eye to Bruce losing to someone like Shiva, or on his team right now, Cass or Azrael, I'm just saying it should be more debatable and he should perform better than he's doing. But that is my only real complaint about the Book. And I don't even hate everything about Tynion's Batman, personality wise, I think this is the best Bruce written in comics recently. He's not just a superhero, or a good man, he's a kind compassionate man, and that's really different than before. Just compare how he treated Steph here versus War games.

The Tim issues were overdone, because in my opnion he's never reached that level of intelligence, where he "has all the answers to everything ever" but It's Tynion's favorite character, so you know, that won't change. It's also normal for writers to do that, look at Morrisons Superman and Batman, Snyder's Batman or John's Green Lantern. Everyone's a fan at heart and it would be impossible to remove bias when writing of your favorite characters. When he comes back, there's going to be all kinds of ridiculousness.

The only one I think isn't on, or shouldn't be on Bruce's level at all is Batwoman. I don't think she's earned it at all. She could be a better leader, THAT I could buy, but portraying her as Bruce's all around equal is ridiculous ( in my opinion at least).

Ideally, and this would remove my only complaint, and I'm assuming the complaints of others, remove Bruce from active duty. Make him like an Oracle character. It fits, cause he knows something huge is coming, so he assembles this team to watch over Gotham cause he can't anymore and he checks in periodically. That would remove Tynion's need for constant comparisons.

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Aahz

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The only one I think isn't on, or shouldn't be on Bruce's level at all is Batwoman. I don't think she's earned it at all. She could be a better leader, THAT I could buy, but portraying her as Bruce's all around equal is ridiculous ( in my opinion at least).

I find this "Gotham Trinity" or "she is better than Batman" from the recent interviews also strange. And I don't really buy her as a leader (maybe as a drill sergeant) since she was allways portrait as kind of a looner.

And I have in genral a problem with how spme of the more established characters are sidelined at the moment.

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@aahz: Hi! I think I agree with you on most of what you said, I just have a couple questions, what's spme and who's the "Gotham Trinity." I've read the she is better than Batman comments, which I just rolled my eyes at, but never the "Gotham Trinity" stuff. I'm assuming Bruce, Kate and a third? Also, the reason I might consider her a better leader than Bruce is because she seems to listen to others more often than him, and incorporate their views and opinions into her game plan. Bruce traditionally (although not so much in this book) has been my way or the high way. The thing with him is he's such an amazing strategist that others usually just follow him cause he comes up with the best game plans. So he's the best strategist no doubt, but to me a leader gets people wanting be follow, not acknowledging that they should. If she turns out to be just as good a strategist, I would actually get frustrated A LOT by that, but I could see her being a better leader, solely because I differentiate the two. If other's don't, then yeah I could see why she wouldn't be thought of as a better leader.

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Bat_Girl_CC

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@bat_girl_cc: Yeah I for sure agree that Tynion is the best writer for this book. And I understand the plot point, usually when reading a team book, my motto is "you're character is underperforming, just wait, they'll get their moment." My issue here, and really it's the only issue I have wit the book, is that Bruce's role is that of support, he supports the main character of each arc, and Tynion proceeds to make the unnecessary comparisons. I think Tynion is aware of the plot point also, because he has Shiva state that she would have wanted to fight bruce for real if given the chance, but seeing as how she destroyed him three issues prior, that wouldn't make sense. I think that was Tynion's way of saying, guys, I know this fight should take longer than what I showed, but this is Cass's story and I only have 6 issues to do it in. As a primarily Batman fan, considering how he's been depicted pre and post 52 though, it does get a bit annoying to see him lose constantly so others could triumph. My main concern is that he won't get his own arc, he'll maintain being support for each and every character arc until they all get one. He's performed better against shiva, especially in Death in the Family, and against Cass (with gadgets, without it, I don't think he stands a chance. Obivously not a one move win, but a desicive victory for her each time). The Cass fight I'm referring to was in her own series actually (based on your pic and name, I'm sure you know it), they were gassed with something that made them aggressive and they fought to a stand still. Also the Ra's twist was unnecessary.

And let me be clear, I would never bat an eye to Bruce losing to someone like Shiva, or on his team right now, Cass or Azrael, I'm just saying it should be more debatable and he should perform better than he's doing. But that is my only real complaint about the Book. And I don't even hate everything about Tynion's Batman, personality wise, I think this is the best Bruce written in comics recently. He's not just a superhero, or a good man, he's a kind compassionate man, and that's really different than before. Just compare how he treated Steph here versus War games.

The Tim issues were overdone, because in my opnion he's never reached that level of intelligence, where he "has all the answers to everything ever" but It's Tynion's favorite character, so you know, that won't change. It's also normal for writers to do that, look at Morrisons Superman and Batman, Snyder's Batman or John's Green Lantern. Everyone's a fan at heart and it would be impossible to remove bias when writing of your favorite characters. When he comes back, there's going to be all kinds of ridiculousness.

The only one I think isn't on, or shouldn't be on Bruce's level at all is Batwoman. I don't think she's earned it at all. She could be a better leader, THAT I could buy, but portraying her as Bruce's all around equal is ridiculous ( in my opinion at least).

Ideally, and this would remove my only complaint, and I'm assuming the complaints of others, remove Bruce from active duty. Make him like an Oracle character. It fits, cause he knows something huge is coming, so he assembles this team to watch over Gotham cause he can't anymore and he checks in periodically. That would remove Tynion's need for constant comparisons.

I think that Bruce will eventually get his own character-centric-arc, and it only makes sense that he gets his, since that this is a team book and he's apart of the team, and Tynion said the each member would get one...plus, after the next issue which will conclude the League Of Shadows arc, according to the solicitations we will get a issue witth Batman and Zatana as the leads.

As for the rest, fair enough.

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Aahz

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#23  Edited By Aahz

@jameswayne: Orlando stated it in an interview you can find here.

"Orlando: Yeah, and if you're doing a huge Bat-family story, you have to start with Batman and Batwoman. And really, you have to start with Batman, Batwoman and Nightwing, which is what we do, because that's the Gotham trinity there - the three pillars of the entire Bat-family."

And I don't think that Kate is a pillar of the Batfamily, I would actually rank her somewhere at the bottom when it comes to her importance for the Batfamily.

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Bat_Girl_CC

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#24  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@jameswayne said:

@aahz: Hi! I think I agree with you on most of what you said, I just have a couple questions, what's spme and who's the "Gotham Trinity." I've read the she is better than Batman comments, which I just rolled my eyes at, but never the "Gotham Trinity" stuff. I'm assuming Bruce, Kate and a third? Also, the reason I might consider her a better leader than Bruce is because she seems to listen to others more often than him, and incorporate their views and opinions into her game plan. Bruce traditionally (although not so much in this book) has been my way or the high way. The thing with him is he's such an amazing strategist that others usually just follow him cause he comes up with the best game plans. So he's the best strategist no doubt, but to me a leader gets people wanting be follow, not acknowledging that they should. If she turns out to be just as good a strategist, I would actually get frustrated A LOT by that, but I could see her being a better leader, solely because I differentiate the two. If other's don't, then yeah I could see why she wouldn't be thought of as a better leader.

It's something that even writters have mentioned on interviews some times now...The "Gotham Trinity" has more to do with status and popularity than with capabilities...and its Batman-Batwoman-Nightwing...although during NOTMM Batwoman was imo treating Nightwing as if he was a rookie compared to her...the thing about status and the narrative of a character getting upgraded, is that they will get more pushes, and soon enough more and better feats as well...that's Kate has been amped and pushed to be close to Batman's level, its a Editorial decision, and no its not earned, although personally i don't really have a problem with it, since 1) Batman is still above her on every level, minus perhaps leadership skills and 2) i don't much care about genius-level characters and whatnot, i care about badassness the most, and on that category my girl Cass is head and shoulders above everyone else at the top of the food-chain :)

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@aahz said:

@jameswayne: Orlando stated it in an interview you can find here.

"Orlando: Yeah, and if you're doing a huge Bat-family story, you have to start with Batman and Batwoman. And really, you have to start with Batman, Batwoman and Nightwing, which is what we do, because that's the Gotham trinity there - the three pillars of the entire Bat-family."

And I don't think that Kate is a pillar of the Batfamily, I would actually rank her somewhere at the bottom when it comes to her importance for the Batfamily.

A "pilar" LOL, before Rebirth, she was BARELY part of the family at all, she was always more of a out-sider, kinda like Jason is now, with the difference being that Jason has actually been part of the family, before dying and becoming Red Hood...anyways, i like her, and as i said, as far as i'm concerned her new "status" it's not earned, but whatevs, Cass is still the badass queen and all is still good in the world :)

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@bat_girl_cc: Is it an entire story about Bruce and Zatanna!? I loved it when Dini had her guest star when he was doing Zatanna. I figured this would be like the b plot in the Azrael story and eventually the Azrael story would merge with this. It would be cool if he got his own story. Something else I'm hoping/excited for is that during the Metal event, Bruce leaves the team for a bit. The book is obviously going to tie into the event, but by having him off doing event related stuff, it could change the dynamic of the team and really show that they could get along fine without him. I mean sales for this book are really strong (there's decay yeah, but everybook decays) so I think they could afford a temporary shift in status quo.

As for your Batwoman comments in your other post, I really don't have an issue with her being prominent either. I've always liked her since her backups in Detective. I just have a pet peeve/annoyance about hero vs hero or hero comparisons. It's why I can not stand marvel anymore. I used to be a marvel mainly guy, Civil War was novel and cool, but ten years later, still the same garbage...not for me. Oh and Cass is indeed an uber badass. She's pretty much that awesome scene in the Raid on perpetual repeat.

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@aahz: Thanks for sharing that, while I don't think it's earned, I ultimately don't have a problem with it as long as they refrain from comparing her to other characters. Make her baddass by all means, but don't take away from others to do so. That's my opinion. Also, sorry, I'm an idiot, I reread my question and realized the spme was just a typo. Thought it was some internet slang I was not used to.

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@black_arrow@tdk_1997

Wow, if you don't like King's run in Batman is perfectly fine, but to say he takes credits from others, even doubting he wrote an issue he's credited for, I think it's just too much. He thougth Williamson's idea was better than his and let him do one of his issue for the crossover, I don't see any problem. I bet Williamson was happy for writing a Batman issue and having more control over such an important story to the current events that are happening in Rebirth and King felt great for having more time to work in his future arc, both writers won. In Grayson is clearly stated who wrote wich issue btw and I think both of them crafted the stories together without one doing the heavy work

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#29  Edited By Chubi

@entropy_aegis said:

LOL what?

Does anyone feel that King is just a lackey?

First of all I am Gotham remains incomplete without the Orlando driven NOTMM crossover.

I am Suicide was used to poorly launch the JL VS SS event

I am Bane was supposed to about a life and death battle only for DC to announce Bane: Conquest

The Rooptops arc was added at the eleventh hour.

Now this? wtf?

I disagree, Rooftops was made into a two part story instead of just one, it was not added outta nowhere. And I Am Suicide just had two pages that don't affect the story to make a nod to JL VS SS that isn't obligatory reading for the event. About I Am Bane, we just don't know how or if the announcement of Bane: Conquest affected the story King wanted to tell, still, those were editorials decisions. The only thing I agree is about NOTMM, I don't know if King had a resolution to Hugo Strange's plans or if it was meant to deliver a crossover from the beginning, personally, I would have prefered that it was done in the main title, especially because I didn't like NOTMM

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@chubi said:

@black_arrow@tdk_1997

Wow, if you don't like King's run in Batman is perfectly fine, but to say he takes credits from others, even doubting he wrote an issue he's credited for, I think it's just too much. He thougth Williamson's idea was better than his and let him do one of his issue for the crossover, I don't see any problem. I bet Williamson was happy for writing a Batman issue and having more control over such an important story to the current events that are happening in Rebirth and King felt great for having more time to work in his future arc, both writers won. In Grayson is clearly stated who wrote wich issue btw and I think both of them crafted the stories together without one doing the heavy work

I am not really accusing him of taking credit for another writer's work, I just think that he often just develops the plot but the story came from another writer. So far in half of the stories he wrote, they either started from somewhere else or tied into something else and he was just doing fillers.

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entropy_aegis

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Batman 22 is actually a great issue and if they follow upon what Thomas said to Bruce when they were parting then the ramifications could be huge. I doubt it'll happen though, dont see either Snyder and Tynion or even King following.

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#32  Edited By Chubi

@tdk_1997 said:
@chubi said:

@black_arrow@tdk_1997

Wow, if you don't like King's run in Batman is perfectly fine, but to say he takes credits from others, even doubting he wrote an issue he's credited for, I think it's just too much. He thougth Williamson's idea was better than his and let him do one of his issue for the crossover, I don't see any problem. I bet Williamson was happy for writing a Batman issue and having more control over such an important story to the current events that are happening in Rebirth and King felt great for having more time to work in his future arc, both writers won. In Grayson is clearly stated who wrote wich issue btw and I think both of them crafted the stories together without one doing the heavy work

I am not really accusing him of taking credit for another writer's work, I just think that he often just develops the plot but the story came from another writer. So far in half of the stories he wrote, they either started from somewhere else or tied into something else and he was just doing fillers.

I don't agree for the reasons (among others) I listed above.

Anyway, Williamson delivered a great issue this week. Batman #22 had a great Bruce/Thomas moment and the crossover is still intriguing even when it's giving more questions than answers. Fabok was great as always. I wonder how many things the last issue will answer, to be a 4 part story, it has advanced very slowly even though it has had solid writing

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@chubi said:
@tdk_1997 said:
@chubi said:

@black_arrow@tdk_1997

Wow, if you don't like King's run in Batman is perfectly fine, but to say he takes credits from others, even doubting he wrote an issue he's credited for, I think it's just too much. He thougth Williamson's idea was better than his and let him do one of his issue for the crossover, I don't see any problem. I bet Williamson was happy for writing a Batman issue and having more control over such an important story to the current events that are happening in Rebirth and King felt great for having more time to work in his future arc, both writers won. In Grayson is clearly stated who wrote wich issue btw and I think both of them crafted the stories together without one doing the heavy work

I am not really accusing him of taking credit for another writer's work, I just think that he often just develops the plot but the story came from another writer. So far in half of the stories he wrote, they either started from somewhere else or tied into something else and he was just doing fillers.

I don't agree for the reasons (among others) I listed above.

Anyway, Williamson delivered a great issue this week. Batman #22 had a great Bruce/Thomas moment and the crossover is still intriguing even when it's giving more questions than answers. Fabok was great as always. I wonder how many things the last issue will answer, to be a 4 part story, it has advanced very slowly even though it has had solid writing

It's fair to disagree with us. You are not obliged in any way to be with the same opinion as us, it's just the way we are seeing things currently. Even though I believe this, I still can say, from the bottom of my heart, I really love Tom King as a writer. Batman is just not his thing apparently or at least his run doesn't relate to me in any way. The way he writes the character is not something I want to see for a long term.

I totally agree with you. I don't really know who's pushing this crossover more, Williamson or King, or it might be even Geoff Johns who gave inspiration for this story, but it has been really solid so far. I love all three chapters of it and with each issue it gets better and better. I was sceptical about it but both Williamson and King proved me wrong. I really fear the same thing as you though, there is a lot unresolved for the one remaining chapter there is and I don't want it to be rushed in any way.
Another side note, Fabok is totally killing it as always. He has been one of the most solid artist pickups from DC for the last few years.

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@tdk_1997 said:
@chubi said:
@tdk_1997 said:
@chubi said:

@black_arrow@tdk_1997

Wow, if you don't like King's run in Batman is perfectly fine, but to say he takes credits from others, even doubting he wrote an issue he's credited for, I think it's just too much. He thougth Williamson's idea was better than his and let him do one of his issue for the crossover, I don't see any problem. I bet Williamson was happy for writing a Batman issue and having more control over such an important story to the current events that are happening in Rebirth and King felt great for having more time to work in his future arc, both writers won. In Grayson is clearly stated who wrote wich issue btw and I think both of them crafted the stories together without one doing the heavy work

I am not really accusing him of taking credit for another writer's work, I just think that he often just develops the plot but the story came from another writer. So far in half of the stories he wrote, they either started from somewhere else or tied into something else and he was just doing fillers.

I don't agree for the reasons (among others) I listed above.

Anyway, Williamson delivered a great issue this week. Batman #22 had a great Bruce/Thomas moment and the crossover is still intriguing even when it's giving more questions than answers. Fabok was great as always. I wonder how many things the last issue will answer, to be a 4 part story, it has advanced very slowly even though it has had solid writing

It's fair to disagree with us. You are not obliged in any way to be with the same opinion as us, it's just the way we are seeing things currently. Even though I believe this, I still can say, from the bottom of my heart, I really love Tom King as a writer. Batman is just not his thing apparently or at least his run doesn't relate to me in any way. The way he writes the character is not something I want to see for a long term.

I totally agree with you. I don't really know who's pushing this crossover more, Williamson or King, or it might be even Geoff Johns who gave inspiration for this story, but it has been really solid so far. I love all three chapters of it and with each issue it gets better and better. I was sceptical about it but both Williamson and King proved me wrong. I really fear the same thing as you though, there is a lot unresolved for the one remaining chapter there is and I don't want it to be rushed in any way.

Another side note, Fabok is totally killing it as always. He has been one of the most solid artist pickups from DC for the last few years.

Of course it's fine to disagree :)! I've been in some great debates in some forums talking about King's Batman and I was also sceptical about Williamson

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@chubi: In which forums have you gotten into debates?

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@tdk_1997: None in Comicvine, but from time to time I comment in the CBR community. My personal favorite is the comments section of Batman News at least to discuss comics, since usually it's very polite (There I post with other name)

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#37  Edited By Black_Arrow

This last issue of Batman was great, I hope that this means more Damian in general. There was a part that was specially sad where Bruce said that the greatest gift he has ever received was the letter from his father (Bruce mentioned Damian but It seemed it was more of a gift to his Father to know that) and later Thomas, says that his greatest gift was Bruce. It truly shows how much Bruce is screwed up, and Thomas instantly notice it after that phrase, Bruce has a son and yet that letter was the greatest gift. It was a really great moment and I hope that Bruce notices that.

Overall I love that my hype about this event is paying off.

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@chubi said:

@tdk_1997: None in Comicvine, but from time to time I comment in the CBR community. My personal favorite is the comments section of Batman News at least to discuss comics, since usually it's very polite (There I post with other name)

Yeah, you're new around CV. Welcome, man!


This last issue of Batman was great, I hope that this means more Damian in general. There was a part that was specially sad where Bruce said that the greatest gift he has ever received was the letter from his father (Bruce mentioned Damian but It seemed it was more of a gift to his Father to know that) and later Thomas, says that his greatest gift was Bruce. It truly shows how much Bruce is screwed up, and Thomas instantly notice it after that phrase, Bruce has a son and yet that letter was the greatest gift. It was a really great moment and I hope that Bruce notices that.

Overall I love that my hype about this event is paying off.

Yeah, man, I am glad that I wasn't the only one who loved this moment. I am glad that Williamson wrote the script for the issue, he did a wonderful job. It was truly well written and every single character was handled well.

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#40  Edited By Chubi

@tdk_1997: Thanks!

My only problem with this issue was seeing Thomas and Bruce defeating a squad of Atlanteans and Amazons all by themselves in a fist fight. I think it took away the feel of danger that was introduced at the beginning, when we see Thomas ready to blow everything up to get rid of them

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This last issue of Batman was great, I hope that this means more Damian in general. There was a part that was specially sad where Bruce said that the greatest gift he has ever received was the letter from his father (Bruce mentioned Damian but It seemed it was more of a gift to his Father to know that) and later Thomas, says that his greatest gift was Bruce. It truly shows how much Bruce is screwed up, and Thomas instantly notice it after that phrase, Bruce has a son and yet that letter was the greatest gift. It was a really great moment and I hope that Bruce notices that.

Overall I love that my hype about this event is paying off.

A rather unexpectedly big week for Damian between this and Nightwing. Over at Nightwing he has now been made Dick's heir to both the Robin and Nightwing legacy, that's huge.

Robin: Son of Batman and Nightwing.

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Son of Batman sounds infinitely cooler though, IMO.

I get that the two are close but c'mon. I need more Bruce and Damian. That's my favorite dynamic duo right there :3.

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@black_arrow said:

This last issue of Batman was great, I hope that this means more Damian in general. There was a part that was specially sad where Bruce said that the greatest gift he has ever received was the letter from his father (Bruce mentioned Damian but It seemed it was more of a gift to his Father to know that) and later Thomas, says that his greatest gift was Bruce. It truly shows how much Bruce is screwed up, and Thomas instantly notice it after that phrase, Bruce has a son and yet that letter was the greatest gift. It was a really great moment and I hope that Bruce notices that.

Overall I love that my hype about this event is paying off.

A rather unexpectedly big week for Damian between this and Nightwing. Over at Nightwing he has now been made Dick's heir to both the Robin and Nightwing legacy, that's huge.

Robin: Son of Batman and Nightwing.

Nightwing also had a great issue this week. I love all the implications that this has and It shows the how coceptually great Damian is, because not only he is the logical heir after Dick to inherit the legacy of Batman, but He is also the first to truly inherit the mantle of Robin. It also shows how the mantles are going to be inherit on the future (Batman => Robin=> Nightwing=> Batman).

I really love both of this issues for finally acknowledging the potential that Damian has on the Bat family.

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@entropy_aegis said:
@black_arrow said:

This last issue of Batman was great, I hope that this means more Damian in general. There was a part that was specially sad where Bruce said that the greatest gift he has ever received was the letter from his father (Bruce mentioned Damian but It seemed it was more of a gift to his Father to know that) and later Thomas, says that his greatest gift was Bruce. It truly shows how much Bruce is screwed up, and Thomas instantly notice it after that phrase, Bruce has a son and yet that letter was the greatest gift. It was a really great moment and I hope that Bruce notices that.

Overall I love that my hype about this event is paying off.

A rather unexpectedly big week for Damian between this and Nightwing. Over at Nightwing he has now been made Dick's heir to both the Robin and Nightwing legacy, that's huge.

Robin: Son of Batman and Nightwing.

Nightwing also had a great issue this week. I love all the implications that this has and It shows the how coceptually great Damian is, because not only he is the logical heir after Dick to inherit the legacy of Batman, but He is also the first to truly inherit the mantle of Robin. It also shows how the mantles are going to be inherit on the future (Batman => Robin=> Nightwing=> Batman).

I really love both of this issues for finally acknowledging the potential that Damian has on the Bat family.

I like this succession plan. The Trinity of the Batfamily should be Batman, Robin and Nightwing.

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@aahz said:

@jameswayne: Orlando stated it in an interview you can find here.

"Orlando: Yeah, and if you're doing a huge Bat-family story, you have to start with Batman and Batwoman. And really, you have to start with Batman, Batwoman and Nightwing, which is what we do, because that's the Gotham trinity there - the three pillars of the entire Bat-family."

And I don't think that Kate is a pillar of the Batfamily, I would actually rank her somewhere at the bottom when it comes to her importance for the Batfamily.

Calling Batwoman a pillar of the Bat Family is honestly just character shilling, because it doesn't actually line up with her history at all.

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belrev516

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Batwoman as a pillar of the Bat family is damn laughable.

Bruce, Dick, and Damian are the three pillars in my book. Kate no where near that.

Speaking of I saw a Batwoman devotee claiming that Bruce couldn't beat Kate one on one.

I haven't laughed that hard in ages.

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So why has Damian been kept out of most of the Bat Family titles since Rebirth began? He's shown up more outside the Bat books in Superman and Teen Titans than he has in the Batman comics. Is it because Snyder wants his pet project Duke to take the spotlight instead or because Snyder once said he didn't like to write Damian because of his own son?

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@lvenger: I'm actually pleased, he's avoided a mediocre list of books and the awfulness of Monster Men. Damian is good with Super Sons and a resurgent Titans franchise. Plus he's become incredibly important to Nightwing( he is the literal basis of the current ongoing getting launched and has been made Dicks heir) whose star is shining brightly. Snyder will be trying to make Duke a thing 20 years from now.

@belrev516: Fans say silly stuff all the time lol. Its more appalling when the writers feed such fans, Tynion and Bennet are guilty of that. Heck Rucka once proclaimed that he'd take Kate over Bruce, yeah its only your own creation Greg.

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#50  Edited By Lvenger

@entropy_aegis: True, Damian has been doing well outside of the Bat Family expanding into Super Sons and leading the new Teen Titans. It's just weird that the most prominent reference to Damian was during The Button and he wasn't even there for that. I loved Damian's role in the latest Nightwing arc. It started out being Damian wanting to dispute who would be the next Batman but it ended with Damian being implied to be the next Nightwing. That was a stroke of genius.

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