I'll start by saying that Janin killed it, he just rocketed himself in to the best Batman artist EVER imo, this was just amazing. I dont believe in perfection but Janin really makes me question my belief.

As for the story however, spoilers ahead

Both the writer and the artist went to a whole new level here, Janin just went high while King went to a whole new low. His story has completely collapsed, he has no clue what he's doing, Batman's SS isn't even in this nor were they in #10, seriously why even hype the crap out of that? this story is about some forced conflict created over Catwoman becoming a serial killer. Psycho Pirate, Bane, the SS have been all but non factors in this arc. This is worse than I AM GOTHAM was, this is a shitty Catwoman story misleadingly marketed as something else altogether. Worst part is that it doesn't satisfy the Catwoman fanbase, on the contrary it has only incensed them. Like the previous arc all this arc does is tease some potentially interesting and cool stuff but all of it languishes in the background while the writer is in awe of some other mundane crap that he wants to beat you over the head with. What could have been an interesting espionage story filled with political themes and intrigues is now a lame ass love story over a non existent conflict that the writer artificially shoehorned.

Oh and it's only 14 pages because it's all splash pages.

Pretty apt summary from what I read, Janin delivered some of his best drawn, fluidly depicted and choreographed art for the action whereas King wrote some of the most atrocious, over-symbolic and poorly written dialogue I've seen. Maybe he's not such a good exclusive for DC after all if this is what he does now.

Pros: Batman took down like 100 guys on his own

I read an interview with King saying he counted on readers being upset, then said we were all "so smart" and that he agreed with how triggered the fans were....and said Batman in this issue was supposed to a representation of us calling b.s on what Selina had done.

Uh-huh, I'm not some Linkin Park edgetype King, reading Bruce's letters was more like something you'd expect out of the mouth of a Peanuts character in all those fanfics where the characters grow up and become twisted

I honestly got tired while being half way through the book, so I decided to only watch the fantastic action by Janin while peaking a bit what was Batman saying, and everytime, I watched it, I only notice Batman rambling about something. I am going to watch this arc to the end because I love Bane but I am going to drop the book once It ends because this is awful. I love how King said that he loved Ostrander's Suicide Squad run and that he was inspired by that, It is funny considering how this arc is nothing like what Ostrander wrote.

The art was great and I would now laugh at anyone who thinks Captain Hydra can take Batman h2h

This is just text book King non sense, he just overcompensates for lack of any decent action. Beating Grundy with a throw, repairing his own back in a jiffy and now this. It all rings meaningless and shallow, King is lucky Janin drew the heck out of it because there was no substance in the fighting. Just like an old 80's flick with one guy running over hordes of fodder, it becomes boring which it did, same old shit page after page. Atleast King could have had the decency to switch up, like show Batman taking down a helicopter, or blowing up a tank or fighting different types of fighters. Nope it was the same guy x1000.

When he came on board he said that he didn't want to write gloomy stories about Batman, to be more precise he said that he didn't want stories where Batman looked in to a mirror and reflected upon how dismal his life was. Here though we got a lame and edgy thesis on how Batman's life is so sad and what not. He's completely confused, I'm sure of it.

I think I'll do the same, I definitely wont bother with the Catwoman interlude issues that's for sure.

I'll give King this though, he gave Batman some damn good looking feats for the battle boards.

He's nightmare for the battle forums poster that's for sure lol.

Good art, story is ok

@zariusii: "Batman readers are smart"

Clearly he was wrong about that

A real disappointment yet again. King is slowly killing the Batman comic for everyone. I still don't understand how people are excited for when this books comes around because we all know nothing will happen. The best and most interesting moments will probably happen off panel, Batman's inner monologue and his dialogue would be the worst one I've ever seen but he will get one of his best feats ever. Thank god we have Janin on this and he is bringing his A-game for this book because otherwise it would've been even worse.

I can give this issue 4/10 because of Janin's interiors only. But if it wasn't for him, this issue is a solid 1/10.

Hopefully somebody can clear my confusion-was his letter to Selina suggesting that she actually DID NOT kill all those people, and that she simply lied about it? That'd be more annoying than if she DID kill them. It also leads me to believe that her betraying him in the last issue was part of the plan.

Also, great art.

Oh, and Batman now wins all h2h battle forums. Thanks, Janin!

From what I got in this issue she faked it off and her betraying him seems like it's part of Batman's plan to stop Bane from using the Psycho Pirate. However, that's only a guess from me.

That's what I gathered from it.

I'm so smart,

I'm so smart

I'm so smart

I'm so smart

In the last issue Batman was in Bane's room, hiding in the vents. In this issue he's on the other side of the prison heroically fighting his way to get to Bane's room... what a smartly written comic folks.

Disappointing garbage batman books this year . Detec, all-star, and this have been a mess. I dropped Detec, and all star . I'm one issue away from dropping this book as well.

Hey man, don't worry. It's all part of an elaborated plan. Tom King has figured everything out and he knows exacty what he is doing because he is the king. *pun intended*

@tdk_1997: Haha, King has convinced his fans that he's so smart that they refuse to take his writing for what is. I've seen fans argue that Batman here is a robot piolted by the real thing, he's not a robot folks, there's no twist, King just sucks at characterizing Batman.Similarly there are other bizarre theories ranging from it all being a Psycho Pirate induced dream to Arnold Wesker being Bane in disguise...yup.It's time for fans to pull their heads out of the sand,stop drinking the King aid. The story is linear and simplistic, there's nothing there to jolt your brain, defending bad writing with smart excuses is just silly.

Man, are those suckers really misguided. It is terrible to ruin someone's dreams by telling them that King doesn't have anything deep in mind or that there is no twist with this story whatsoever, and that this is as obvious as it is actually. King is overwhelmed by the fact that he is writing Batman and that's why he is producing such terrible mediocre stories that will be forgotten after a few years. But that's what happens when you get off with a good start with one or two books and start believing in yourself too much.

P.S: Do you mind giving me a link or something to those speculations?

@casper4690

Agreed,except for Batman Beyond which I am enjoying.

I'm sick of tec making Bats out to be some sort of frustrated idiot and sick of it focusing on other bat characters most of the time. If people like the bat family, than make a "Bat Family" title.

Although I really did enjoy watching batman take down like 100 guys. Hey it happened

even if he was trying to make up for bad writing

Yeah, we all know Selina's luring Bane into a false sense of security, plus King has been giving interviews where he says Bruce and Selina are soul mates, the next two issues in between this arc and the "I Am Bane" story also focus on Bruce and Selina's relationship. He's got big plans for them.

*bat-cat baby*

You all heard it here first.

Isn't that what Detective is supposed to be? There's Batmans' solo and All-Star for Solo Bat adventures. I kind of figured Tec was meant to be exactly that--a Batfamily book. DC has a thing about putting Batman on and in everything, but it makes sense especially here. But I never thought that they wanted him to be the focus.

And for what it's worth, Teen Titans, The Outlaws, and Batman Beyond aren't bad books for Damian, Terry, and Jason. Not Bat-family books per se, but still solid for other Bat-based characters.

I don't really see where any of the complaints are from because of this last issue. King basically just added more to the whole "Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman is who he is". People are refering to it as "too edgy" or "emo" but it is a 10 year old boy who watched his parents get gunned down in front of him.

My interpretation of it: (even if it's wrong, King hasn't really said much about it) Bruce almost took his own life some, but instead when seeing that there were so many people dealing with the same type of pain he was in, decided to just end being Bruce Wayne, and decided his goal would be fighting criminals. "I am Suicide" was just his way of saying becoming Batman is what killed Bruce Wayne. Not the razor blade. His relationship with Catwoman is essentially birds of a feather who flock together. Based on their pasts they both understand what each other went through.

I understand that people have had a lot of problems with King's run, even I have had some issues, but I'm not ready to give up on it. After Grayson, Omega Men, and Vision, I know the payoff will be big.

@king_chronos: The problem with Batman fans is that they're so stuck with their pre-conceived notions of what Batman should be, built by taking all the positive traits (but none of the flaws) built by dozens of writers throughout the decades, leaving them with an idealized version, that they're conditioned to reject anything that deviates from that vision. Morrison got trashed for it, Snyder got trashed for it, and now King's getting trashed for it. It's only when a run is consistently mediocre and doesn't do anything that hasn't already been done dozens of times (see: New 52 Detective Comics) when these fans are okay with it.

The funny thing is that King's previous works had the same complaints from those characters' "fanbases". Some Nightwing fans hated Grayson because "not muh fingerstripes!" and "omg he should be shipped with Babs or Bruce or <insert creepy fetish here>!" (and there are still people who can't comprehend the Futures End issue) Kyle Rayner fans hated Omega Men because he wasn't portrayed as a Mary Sue with his special snowflake White Lantern powers. Vision fans hated The Vision because of their Vision/Wanda ship. The difference is that none of these fanbases are nearly as big or vocal as Batman's.

@rurgandy: That is a very interesting way to put it. I am both a Dick Grayson and Kyle Rayner fan, but I thought both stories were great. I knew Grayson was met first with several complaints but alwayd enjoyed it for getting Dick away from Gotham which is arguably when he is at his best. As for Omega Men I guess I had avoided all the hate.

I had recently read Grant Morrison's run on Batman and I wasn't really active on forums during the majority of Snyder's run so I missed a lot of what you are saying. Seeing it now though with King I can see the pattern you describe. I had recently asked on a forum why people have such negative opinions on Snyder's run when the general opinion from what I saw was that it was well liked and people responded with it being a cheap knock off on Morrison's run (I enjoyed both equally). And now with King's run I'm hearing in ways people saying this is just a more pretentious Snyder run. Batman is a flawed character though, and to be honest flawed characters make great stories.

@king_chronos: In general, flawed characters are ideal for fiction, because it's easier to create meaningful conflicts out of those flaws. There's always going to be a stark contrast between Batman and Superman in that the former is a character with inherent flaws built into the most basic tenets of his mythos, whereas the latter is supposed to represent an ideal that every person should strive to be. There are all sorts of stories that you can do with Batman, but writing Superman is very difficult, which is so many iconic Superman stories are either origins or Elseworlds. Even the current Superman book is more about young Superboy than it is about Superman.

@rurgandy: I know this is a Batman 12 discussion topic and we are going a bit off topic, but I do agree with you. I always had an issue getting into Superman because of this. I enjoyed Grant Morrison's Action Comics because we saw a younger brash Superman learning the ropes. New 52 Superman was certainly different from his pre Flashpoint counterpart because of this. I'm also enjoying the current Superman run because it has the Batman & Robin aesthetic; focusing on family while developing each character on their own more. Normal Superman comics never really interested me before any of these changes. And I mean no disrespect to the writers or the fans of these stories when I say this. But what should be obtained from a Batman comic is more depth of character. I always considered the Batman book as the series the delved into his character, Detective Comics as the more crime solving series, and currently All-Star Batman is just Snyder's playground to have fun with and I'm enjoying it. Which ironically that book has Batman having fun and not being brooding similar to The Animated Series, yet people hate on it for it having a lighter tone. I understand there can be a middleground, but I feel as though the middleground people want from a Batman book is just too narrow.

@ScouterV

What King_Chronos said

"...Detective Comics the more crime solving series."

Anyways (and this is my opinion, I don't want anyone to think I'm being a jerk because that's not my intention)

If I wanted to see other bat family characters I would buy their books, such as Red Hood which I read, not be forced to read about them (ya I know no one is forcing me to read them, but I think you get my point)

I don't mind other Bat family characters making appearances in tec but i don't think they should be the main focus. Can we just hurry up and finish Mr. Kane's story already? Getting so sick of him

Well, the thing is, not everyone in Detective would have a book otherwise, and Gotham is filled with heroes.

It's not like Orphan or Spoiler have any reason to get a book. Tim led the Titans, but that's Damians' now. Batwing was cancelled. So the alternative would be these characters vanish into limbo, and there are some fans of these characters.

@ScouterV

Batwing got cancelled. Wasn't strong enough to hold own series

Orphan & Spoiler aren't strong enough to hold their own series (except for the Batgirl comic that featured Cain as Batgirl, can't remember if it got cancelled).

So we both agree that these characters are not strong enough to hold their own series.

So what do they do instead? Force them into a book that used to be about Batman and used to focus on detective elements instead of creating a bat family book.

Spoiler blames Batman for Tims death which wasn't his fault.

Mr. Kane tells Bats he isn't scared of him and Batman just says "Hnnn" and walks away rather than coming up with a cool comeback.

It feels as though they have to downgrade Batman in order to make the other characters stand out.

Thing thing is, Batman is featured in about a ton of other books. Justice League, Batman, Tec, All-Star, Trinity, Justice League of America, Earth-2, etc.

There are several books that get to show how cool Batman can be, and sometimes other players have to take a backseat for Batman. (I mean, do we really need Batman on a book as the tech or strategist guy when you've got Cyborg--the most advanced machine on the planet, and The Flash--a guy who can think faster than most people can blink?)

I don't think it's completely unfair that Bruce put someone else over every so often.

And while those books didn't maintain their series, does that mean that we simply forget they existed and have them vanish into limbo? Some of the characters are solid. Batwing has potential. Spoiler and Orphan have potential. The only way we get to make these characters better is by giving them the opportunity.

Also, A book can be good and get cancelled or retooled (like Grayson or Omega Men, for example). Not saying that was the case with Batwing, but a cancelled book isn't a mark that a character deserves nothing but limbo.

@hauntedgraveyard:

Not to go too far off-topic, but how is Batman being downgraded? I don't think either of your examples show that (and I don't agree that he is, anyway).

Spoiler is blaming Batman because she's angry and upset, and is being manipulated by the First Victim on top of that. She's not thinking clearly.

And Batman himself is dealing with the loss of a teammate as well. Of course he's not going to be quippy in the situation you mentioned. Why would he be? That'd be absurd.

I'd hardly call either of those things being "downgraded".

I'm not saying that those characters deserve limbo, I'm saying that they should have made a bat family book instead of taking over detec and making Batman seem like an idiot.

Ya there are a ton of titles with bats in them but Batman and Tec have always been mostly about Batman & Justice League has almost always featured Batman. I don't see why Bats should take a backseat in a series that has been his since the 1930s.

@hauntedgraveyard:

He's not being an idiot.

And just because there's a bigger cast now doesn't mean he's taking a backseat in "his" series. Even if that's true, so what? I love Batman, but there's room for others in a major book like this. To say otherwise just sounds kind of greedy to me.

What would have been wrong with a bat family book?

And I do think bats is acting like an idiot. What kind of response is "Hnnn" when Someone says they don't scare you? Where is the cool comeback comment?

@hauntedgraveyard:

I explained why it would be ridiculous to have Bats use a one-liner there. He's out-of-sorts due to Tim's death. Is not saying something cool really the standard for whether he's an idiot or not? That sounds ridiculous. Why does Batman have to be cool all the time?

There wouldn't have been anything wrong with a Batfamily book necessarily, but that would be an unknown quantity. Or at least a dated one. 'Tec has both the brand recognition and features a cast of fan-favorites, two big strengths from a marketing standpoint. It IS the Batfamily book now. Besides, the title hasn't been specifically about more detective-y stories for, what, at least a decade or two? Not sure why it's an issue now. And having guest stars who "take over" the book for a while isn't a new thing, either.

And even if they did bring back a Batfamily title (which hasn't been used since the 70s or 80s or something), there would almost certainly still be people complaining about Batman not being the focus. I have no doubt of that whatsoever.

I just reread batman #12. I take all the smack talking back , it was actually a darn good read. The most interesting take on batman since Morrisons run. Much kudos to king for sticking to his guns.

First of all that interpretation is still up in the air for the long haul. There is no guarantee what King has done here will actually last beyond this arc. For all I know he was just trying to make the current arc more thematically significant.Sincerely doubt King will the guts and the vision to actually write Batman the way he says he sees him in this issue.

I have my problems with this interpretation because I am beyond tired of te obsession with adding more darkness to Bruce's past and turning his mission in to some crazed personal vendetta of vengeance. Especially because King's Batman was supposed to be looking in to the future instead of the past. But I dont consider it invalid altogether, just lazy, cliche and predictable.

I'm open to having my mind changed on this in the long run, however that still doesn't doesn't excuse the other flaws of King's run and this arc in particular. Horrible dialogue, Batman SS being all but a non factor, the main mission and villains of this arc taking a massive backseat, a comic which has splash pages from start to end, barely any plot progression, a forced conflict between Batman and Catwoman in an arc that doesn't need it, a conflict which has become the main story while the main story is a non entity, the use of cheap twists to deliberately piss of the fans, one dimensional characters , boring and mundane action that is devoid of any creativity and it goes on.

The robot thing is from Batman #10 obviously, while the others are littered across the web. Fans here and there making up wild theories to give some meaning to this arc. Even when it ends like it has been written they'll say "it's all part of the bigger plan, long form story telling dummy" lol. If they're already convinced King is great then it doesn't matter if he's shilling out trash, see" Vision, Omega Men etc dummy" haha. Even King has admitted that he only told Janin to show Batman fighting, that was the sole instruction. If this aint the height of laziness then I dont know what is.

@entropy_aegis: Yeah this is simply my interpretation and I know King hasn't discussed what all of this meant yet. He has been active on twitter though reaching out for feedback even the negative. I know it feels like every Batman writer tries to tap into his past at some point, but I feel like they have the right to do that. In the past 6 years we have had two writers on Batman under two different brandings. King is simply just showing his take on Batman. To me he didn't really change the mythos, he just gave more of a reason for Bruce making the plunge. I do completely understand and agred with some of your criticism. The dialogue in issue 10 was weird and completely unlike King considering how good issus 9 was. I am bummed about the lack lf the SS in this arc though. Was expecting a heist liks arc about stealing Psycho Pirate, but this arc does have it's shining moments which I think shown in some of the dialogue in this issus. As for the art, I really enjoy Janin's art, so I know a bunch of splash pages isn't necessarily the best thing in a single issue, but I just really dug it. As impossible as it is for Batman to take down all thlse soldiers, seeing him traverss Bane's fortress was awesome. I had also just read the new issue of Ninjak in which he stormes a fortress and beat the crap out of a bunch of grunts as well and was just enjoying all the awesome action scenes.

But I do respect your opinion on this. I was half expecting to be ripped apart for liking the issue, but instead got to have a mature discussion about it.

It's not that King doesn't have a right, it's that he is confused. He outright said that he wasn't interested in this exact same sort of stuff that he's written in this issue. This run was about Batman looking ahead, hence the Gotham siblings and the dilemma with/over them. Now it's about Catwoman's killing spree and Batman's "suicide", he's just incapable of juggling different aspects of his story. Most of the things he introduces just languish without a purpose, the main story remains static while something else entirely has dominated the narrative. Why not just write a Bat/Cat story detailing Selina's "killings" and Batman's quest to find her and uncover the truth and be done with? It's not Catwoman's bizarre heel turn that pisses me off unlike many other fans, it's the timing of it, what place does any of this have in this story? how does a story that was marketed as Batman assembling his own group of villains end up becoming a love story with some of the most cringe worthy narration ever? do people even write letters like the way King has written? it doesn't read like a letter at all, it's typical narration boxes but King fans like to pretend that he's above narration cause he's so smart, masking them as letters doesn't change anything maybe King should have jotted it down with the intention of sending it to his wife or something, maybe then he'd have realized how unnatural this whole thing sounds.

The real problem is that King has been given too much, he's overwhelmed by the task of writing Batman. Books like Vision and Omega Men he knew would have a finite life time so he did his best to tell his story as efficiently as possible. Here he's just stringing us along, at issue 12 both those books ended, here we still have no effing clue what the story is even supposed to be about. When a writer just tells the artist to draw a comic filled with splash pages of Batman fighting and gives him basic instructions like "panel 1 :Batman fighting" then you know he's taking it easy and doesn't really care. Why should he? he's writing Batman, he's got a twice monthly schedule he's got hype, he faces no threat of cancellation, he's buddy boy with Scott Snyder. Look at Superman, it's also just released it's twelfth issue but looking back notice how much ground we have covered over there, look at Nightwing, even Detective which I'm not too much a fan off either for different reasons but still has that feeling of the story having moved from point A to point B. I am Suicide is already ending yet I feel it hasn't even started because the premise, the characters etc were never allowed a fair shake.

Nothing was wrong, but the thing is, they weren't going to make a Bat-Family book.

I tell you I have the idea for a book of characters that didn't sell well on their own that puts them together with just them, that's not going to get anyone really invested.

I tell you, I have an idea for a book that throws a bunch of characters that didn't do well...with Batman...then the people at DC start listening and seeing dollar signs.

That's how you get a book like Justice League of America or as you see it, Detective Comics.

And you're right. This is just a new take on Detective Comics. It's an interesting dynamic. And if you want Batman, you still have a bunch of other books. I'm sure Bruce could probably put his Detective skills to use better in Justice League or JLA or even more possible, Trinity.

I'm not sure if thy could hold a solo without the Batgirl title, but a Birds of Prey or We Are Robin type book might work. But it imo also depends a little bit on the number of other Batman series that are published at the same time, i think there is a maximum number of series most of the fans are willing to follow.Thats why I also think that it would be cleverer if the Batwriter would put some of the newer or more obscure characters (like Batwing, Azrael, Talon, Duke, and all the Batman inc. guys ...) permanently in limbo, and would concentrate more on the core Batfamily.

The only newer charcters are probably worth keeping are probably Batwoman (I'm not a fan of her but her first series was at least in the first years quite succsessfull) and Harper (who would works quite well in a team with Cass and Steph imo).

It's sad that so many times, we fans, have way better ideas and explanations of certain stories than the writers themselves. This is the same story as with the explanation for Jared Leto's Joker that he's Jason Todd. Everything sounded fantastic but it was created by a fan and the true intention of the ones running the DCEU wasn't the same and theirs was just bs, just as in King's Batman right now.

Yeah that's why Janin is credited as co story teller instead of artist for this issue. King's only contribution was the letter and those 3 lines of dialogue from Bane, the actual story in Santa Prisca was entirely fromJanin. He gave up on his own story altogether, there's no excuse for this level of laziness.

@hauntedgraveyard: The characters in Detective Comics right now, were once more than capable of holding their own solos, even more so than many that do now...Cassandra Cain, for exemple, to this day, still holds the record for the longest-runnning Batgirl solo book, with 73 issues...and she only got once shot at it, how many has Barbara Gordon got already?...the thing is, much like the fans, people at DC's Editorial are fanboys/fangirls to, and they will do everything in their power to promote their own favourites over other characters even if its bad for business...this has been proven time and time again...just see the biggining of the New 52 several fan-favourites including the Flash Wally West, Donna Troy, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, were erased so that DC could have their own ideal world with their own favourites on top...Tim Drake fans have been taking sh*t like never before...also, you can look no further, than the current Batman-book, even tho Damian Wayne is 1000.000.000.000 times cooler and overall a better character than Duke Thomas, and he is the legitimate Robin, not to mention Batman's biological son, he doesn't get to appear on any of the Bat-books, and Duke gets to appear on the main Batman-book and even on All-Star-Batman, a book that was meant and stated to be focused only on Batman himself and his villains...another exemple, it doens't make sense that many characters that should already have had movies and series featuring them, don't, with the excuse that: "oh, people don't know them outside of comics!" of course they don't! how would they? if those characters aren't allowed to appear anywhere else? its hard to be the best player on your team if your coach never lets you play...meanwhile other characters that previously no-one knew out-side of the comic-medium, got to appear on movies and series and thus became very popular, see?

The hard truth that cost's alot of people to swallow is that their favourite character's aren't the most popular because thei're better than the others...they are the most popular ones, because DC wants them to be the most popular ones! and promotes the sh*t out of them to do it while screwing more interesting and overall better characters than them in the process.