I like you, Batman v Superman, but...

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#1 Edited by k4tzm4n (41766 posts) - - Show Bio

YOU V THIS ARTICLE: DAWN OF SPOILERS

Seriously, there are spoilers ahead. Go away if you haven't seen the movie yet.

First and foremost, I enjoyed Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. I've seen it three times now, and each time I find myself appreciating it more and more. I could go on and on praising the things I do like about the film, but the first time I saw the movie, there were two things that really bothered me. After seeing BvS a second and third time, they still really bother me. I can't get over one scene with Superman, and Batman turning into the freaking Punisher whenever he's in a vehicle just feels wrong. So, instead of going on and on to my fiance about this - her patience for my babbling knows no bounds, but she has better things to do than listen to me complain about fictional characters - I'm going to share my opinion on the Internet. That's always a great idea, right?

Ben Affleck's Batman is amazing. The costume design is pure bliss for my eyes and Affleck absolutely nailed the performance. The cinematography and choreography with him in action was terrific and the voice delivered. It's my favorite live-action version of Batman (I still love you very much, Michael Keaton), but what's up with his moral code? He's a brutal man, but whenever he's in a vehicle, he's totally cool with taking multiple lives. This is especially bothering because, before the movie was released, we were told those guns on the Batmobile are non-lethal. As for the clip of the Batwing taking out gunmen from the trailer, I honestly thought Lex Luthor hacked the Batwing and he was doing that to make Superman think Batman needs to be stopped. But nope, that's not the case.

Get your murder runnin'.

When Batman's in the Batmobile, he straight up kills dudes. When he's flying the Batwing, he obliterates other dudes. Yes, these dudes are bad dudes, but they're still human dudes. Okay, I'll stop saying "dudes" now, but the point remains: Batman's taking lives and apparently not giving a damn. In defense of this, director Zack Snyder pointed out the fact that Batman kills in other movies and he claims Batman killed "all the time" in Frank Miller, Klaus Janson, and Lynn Varley's The Dark Knight Returns. Snyder also says Batman's killing by "proxy" in the movie, meaning if Bruce shoots a car and it blows up, it's not on Batman if the explosion kills the foe who happens to be in the car (but it definitely is on Batman). Well, two things: Batman killing in the other movies is something I - and many others - aren't a fan of, and as far as I can tell, Batman only kills once in The Dark Knight Returns - even his mega tank was non-lethal! To be fair, Snyder does his own version of the specific kill scene from TDKR and even tones it down, so I'm not bothered by that one; however, the whole "if he dies, he dies" mentality while Batman's in vehicles just isn't cool to me.

A moment of silence for Anatoli Knyazev, a.k.a. KGBeast, please.

I was okay with Superman killing General Zod in Man of Steel. To me, it made sense for that scenario - it's not like the Phantom Zone, Kryptonite, or a Red Sun Room were available at that time. As far as I can tell, there was no way to incarcerate or incapacitate Zod. But this version of Batman is too smart, too experienced, and too high tech to simply use basic projectiles in his vehicles. I mean, we're talking about a guy that has devices designed just to disable firearms (as seen in that very awesome Batman vs. goons melee). Am I really supposed to believe that he and Alfred strive for non-lethal when Batman's out and about on his feet, but his vehicles don't have the same kind of options? How isn't there tech that focuses on disabling a vehicle's engine? What about low level electric attacks? Or a precise version of the projectile that exists just to disable firearms? What about being cliche and going for the tires? Batman and Alfred are way more clever and inventive than I could ever hope to be, so I'm sure they can think of so many non-lethal measures for the vehicles.

Batman killing in that twisted, Injustice-ish dream/possible future is fine because it seems like that's a scenario where hope is completely gone and it's all about survival and taking out a blatantly evil Superman, but I just can't get over Batman channeling his inner Deadshot while he uses his vehicles. Has he always been like this? If so, how is Joker still alive? I'm guessing they've had a chase or two back in the day, and this Batman shows no mercy when he's out on the road. I was thinking this mentality could be new, but Alfred's comments about good men becoming cruel just seemed to be about Batman branding his enemies and his feeling of powerlessness against Superman. It was also implied that Alfred works on the vehicles, so I'm guessing those weapons have been on the Batmobile and Batwing for quite some time. You can still show Batman being brutal and darker without having him casually crossing the line a number of times. If anything, having him not murder in those scenes makes him far more impressive, and it would make that final kill towards the end - which, again, is pretty much straight from TDKR - more powerful.

Superman: You don't understand, Bruce! Hmmm. Maybe shoving you will help you understand!

My second biggest criticism: Superman not trying nearly hard enough to talk to Batman (and way to ignore the real bad guys in the chase scene, Clark). I totally get what they were going for in the film, but I don't think it was handled nearly as well as it should have been. Superman wants to talk it out, but Batman becomes more and more frustrating. Then, before Superman knows it, he's suddenly fighting for his life because he's inhaled some Kryptonite. But the thing is, Superman really didn't try that hard to deescalate the situation. He was sincere at first, but when they came face-to-face, Batman just angrily said "I understand" before Kal-El uses his immense strength to effortlessly shove Batman away. Why? What threat did Batman even pose at that point? It just made Superman kind of look like a jerk, and he's supposed to be the polar opposite of that!

After being attacked twice, Superman wanted to put Batman down and then talk it out, but he really should have tried harder before reaching that point. He still could have said more while they were on the street; he could've mentioned Luthor and manipulation, and then Batman would have resisted and been even more aggressive. It still could have quickly escalated, but it could have had more of Superman's good heart and spirit shine through before the fight turned really vicious. Can you tell yet that I was really disappointed that the Man of Steel didn't try harder to talk to Bruce? Because I was. I don't mind them fighting or Superman growing tired of Batman's actions, but at least show us more of Superman's warmth before he's forced to fight for his life against the Dark Knight.

Neither of these things are huge complaints to me, but they have really stuck with me. I love Man of Steel, so my expectations for this movie - especially when it comes to the handling of the iconic characters - were way up there. I'm fine with the movie aiming to make Superman even more conflicted about his actions and Batman even darker and more savage, but not showing us Superman's benevolence when it matters the most felt like a missed opportunity for the hero. And Batman going all gun happy whenever he's in a vehicle? The guy's got to stop that; he can be shockingly harsh without doing that. Thankfully, Bruce's final dialogue with Wonder Woman - who was awesome, by the way - seems to imply he may stop the killing-spree. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm excited for the road ahead, but I really hope we see more of Superman's uplifting personality appear, and less of Batman turning his enemies into swiss cheese and blowing them up.

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#2 Posted by makhai (3389 posts) - - Show Bio

Hater

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#3 Edited by SilverPool (4562 posts) - - Show Bio

I never thought about Cav-El not trying hard enough to talk sense into Bruce. I guess I was always just more bothered by Clark not wanting to fight and basically only landing a few hits on Batman during the whole fight. While Batman was absolutely pummeling him throughout. I mean the fight wasn't even close. It was like Superman didn't even stand a chance.

I think we'll see him be more uplifting after he returns. Even near the end of the movie he clearly begins acting like CB superman. Like when he instantly saves Lex from Doomsday.

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#4 Posted by AkshSarpanch (3573 posts) - - Show Bio

Idk what to say? There are things i agree with you but there are some i disagree with you.

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#5 Posted by Ultra_SupermanKing (1748 posts) - - Show Bio

meh Batman killing really doesn't bother me.

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#6 Edited by UltimateSMfan (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

Vehicle gun happy Bats didn't sit right with me as well, even though while watching I was just like Holy F#%$ and goin through adrenalin rushes. I don't so much agree with you on the Superman bits.

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#7 Posted by Fallschirmjager (23432 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Despite the criticisms it's almost unanimous in every review I find that flawed as the film and or characterization may be it leaves them incredibly excited for the future of the DCU.

Especially a Ben Affleck directed Barman

Would you agree?

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#8 Posted by deltahuman (4986 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact about Supes not trying hard to Talk and negotiate hard with Batman is absolutely true. It just makes no sense that they will fight so early without trying to sort it out vocally.

Maybe it's due to the plot being stupidly written to justify all that happened later after the fight

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#9 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (18984 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by Extremis (3794 posts) - - Show Bio

Finally someone else noticed the Merc with a Cowl in this movie.

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#11 Edited by k4tzm4n (41766 posts) - - Show Bio

@makhai said:

Hater

You.
You.

LOL. Love it.

Idk what to say? There are things i agree with you but there are some i disagree with you.

Well, you're welcome to elaborate ;)

@k4tzm4n: Despite the criticisms it's almost unanimous in every review I find that flawed as the film and or characterization may be it leaves them incredibly excited for the future of the DCU.

Especially a Ben Affleck directed Barman

Would you agree?

Yes. In fact, I say I'm excited about the road ahead in the post!

@makhai said:

Hater

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but mean comments on the internet break my heart.

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#12 Posted by Jgames (8214 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman kill multiple time on screen including Michael Keaton and Christian Bale. Not to mention I saw this movie as Batman going from this brutal vigilante to a change man in the end where Batman decide not to brand Lex Luthor showing the fact that he change. Also you do see sort of the reason why Batman is so brutal because of his past failures.

Superman probably could had done a better job talking to Bruce, but at the same time he rather not underestimate him and die. It be the equivalent of a police with a gun apprehending a criminal, sure you can simply arrest him, but if you sense even a bit of danger than you might overreact and have anger take over you.

My real problem was ugly cgi Doomsday, stupid dream sequence, the JL files felt force, they should had focus less on creating the JL, and more on Batman past and his hate for Superman.

Also while I understand why Batman kill, I don't understand why Superman does when killing Zod was a big deal. They should had just made their own separate movie, then made BvS like I said three years ago.

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#13 Posted by donttellmymom (418 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly I thought the first two or so hours were kind of cheesy and pretty boring, other then a few neat twists, ex: the senator dying, but when Superman meets Lex Luthor and all of the madness ensues, that's when I really started to like it. It's like Zack Snyder finally realized that in the end of the day all we really wanted was to watch Batman fight Superman and then then be interrupted and fight Doomsday with help from Wonder Woman after a nuclear explosion.

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#14 Edited by MrMazz (2002 posts) - - Show Bio

It's hilaarious how they mishandel giving Batman any sense of moral supriority or righteouness for his fight with Superman. It literally gives the movie two "heroes" who are just murderes, there is no heroic specturm they are just both terrible people. And to here Snyder justify Batman killing because he saw it on a youtube video is just absurd, not as much as his explination with Olsen but up there. There are no heroes in this "universe" the Suicide Squad will be more traditionally heroic then Batman and Superman...that shouldn't happen.

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#15 Posted by k4tzm4n (41766 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get the "they spent too much time building the JL" complaints. To each their own, but I think they included the additional cameos in a very simple way that didn't convolute the plot and gave us the fan service we craved. As for Wonder Woman, it was always said she'd be a supporting character, and I think they did a fine job building her up before she literally leaps into action. I don't know why anyone would go in expecting more - or less - from her; it was to get the general audience more interested in her before her movie drops, and I think they succeeded there.

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#16 Posted by the_stegman (40320 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman not having enough benevolence is my flaw with the film. It's like Snyder told Cavill, "Okay, Superman is conflicted, so to convey that, don't smile... At all, or emote."

I mean, his passive face when that Senate blew up made me cringe, look surprised look horrified, SOMETHING!

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#17 Posted by k4tzm4n (41766 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman not having enough benevolence is my flaw with the film. It's like Snyder told Cavill, "Okay, Superman is conflicted, so to convey that, don't smile... At all, or emote."

I mean, his passive face when that Senate blew up made me cringe, look surprised look horrified, SOMETHING!

I do like how he smiled as he handed over the child in the Day of the Dead rescue. As for the senate scene, I remember him looking pretty heartbroken there. It's not over the top, but I could have sworn his eyes were watery.

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#18 Posted by the_stegman (40320 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: He smiled twice in the movie, the child rescue and with Lois(Though, if I had a naked Amy Addams in front of me, I'd smile too) . I'm not asking for him to be all cheery, but all he was was sad or upset.

And I'm seeing the movie again today, but he had a "Well, this is too bad" look on his face from what I remember.

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#19 Edited by k4tzm4n (41766 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman said:

@k4tzm4n: He smiled twice in the movie, the child rescue and with Lois(Though, if I had a naked Amy Addams in front of me, I'd smile too) . I'm not asking for him to be all cheery, but all he was was sad or upset.

And I'm seeing the movie again today, but he had a "Well, this is too bad" look on his face from what I remember.

Yeah, I don't mind because of the direction they're taking with the character, but I really wanted more of his good spirit to shine through when it was needed. I mean, we know he's good through his actions, but I'd love to hear more from him; give an inspiring speech or two.

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#20 Posted by ManOfSteel11 (319 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm okay with Batman killing in this movie, it made sense and it was badass. But Superman only pushed Batman because he was being frustrating and he needed him to listen, but then he used the mini guns and Superman took him to the roof. He said "if I wanted it, you'd be dead already" telling Bats that he wasn't there to kill him like Lex wanted. That's when the kryptonite came out and it became a fight for his life. To me, from the moment Lex pushed Lois off the building to the end of the movie was pure awesomeness, and you could argue that the movie really caught its stride at grandmas peach tea.

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#21 Posted by k4tzm4n (41766 posts) - - Show Bio

@manofsteel11: Yeah, I understand how it all played out (I've seen the movie 4 times now), but, as I said above, I feel it was a missed opportunity to show a little more of Superman's good nature.

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#22 Posted by warrior100 (2163 posts) - - Show Bio

i liked every minute i was really impressed by Wonder Woman, Batman and i love the Flash.

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#23 Posted by batsymyplaything (314 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

but I'd love to hear more from him; give an inspiring speech or two.

Same thing here. I was expecting the Senate hearing to be the place, where he show the people, who he is via words, but I guess Snyder is reallyyyy hooked on making Superman go through hoops of making him lose hope in us, lol. But, I feel like they'll use the rebirth of Superman as a stepping stone on making him the generic Superman that many of us are looking for, as long as Snyder isn't involved in future projects as the headmaster aka director.

By the way, I agree with you on Clark not trying hard enough to explain to Bruce the predicament Lex placed him in. During those scenes, I was like just bear hug him and tell him already, lol.

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#24 Posted by modernww2fare (7216 posts) - - Show Bio

I just watched the movie right now and I completey agree.

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#25 Posted by laagamer (18 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved the film.

My only qualm was watching batman drag a car with people inside behind the Batmobile and mow people down with turrets from the Batplane.

Fucking terrible. Whoever made those creative decisions should be punched. Hard.

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#26 Edited by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio

Possibly the worst incarnation of Lex Luthor I have ever seen. He was like Joker without the facepaint.

Also they introduced and killed Jimmy Olsen IN ONE SCENE! Why? Why would they do that?

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#27 Posted by k4tzm4n (41766 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

but I'd love to hear more from him; give an inspiring speech or two.

Same thing here. I was expecting the Senate hearing to be the place, where he show the people, who he is via words, but I guess Snyder is reallyyyy hooked on making Superman go through hoops of making him lose hope in us, lol. But, I feel like they'll use the rebirth of Superman as a stepping stone on making him the generic Superman that many of us are looking for, as long as Snyder isn't involved in future projects as the headmaster aka director.

By the way, I agree with you on Clark not trying hard enough to explain to Bruce the predicament Lex placed him in. During those scenes, I was like just bear hug him and tell him already, lol.

Yes, the senate would've been a great time to get a good Superman speech in there. Or the balcony with Lois. Or when he visited his mom. Or during a conflict with Batman. I didn't mind Superman conveying a lot of his emotion physically in MoS, but they really missed out on big opportunities this time around.

Thanks.

@laagamer said:

I loved the film.

My only qualm was watching batman drag a car with people inside behind the Batmobile and mow people down with turrets from the Batplane.

Fucking terrible. Whoever made those creative decisions should be punched. Hard.

I really hope Superman's sacrifice makes Batman go non-lethal, even though those weapons have probably always been on his vehicles. He seemed to imply toning it down in his talk with Wonder Woman ("I failed him in life, I won't fail him in death") and choosing not to brand Lex... I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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#28 Edited by Jgames (8214 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman: Honestly his expression in the senate was my favorite part of the movie. The amount of thing going through his head can all be convey with just his face expression and I did feel for him. You can just tell not only how heart broken, but how powerless he felt, knowing that this will be blame on him. Granted overall his performance as Superman was okay.

Edit:Hopefully his revival will show more of his good side.

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#29 Posted by jackiplier (298 posts) - - Show Bio

ikr? wth is wrong with Superman right there. Batman just walked back, Superman walked into the trap himself, Batman didn't even attack and Superman just pushed him through the building for no reason and tells him to stand down. lol wut

I really really want Zack out of JL

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