HI HATERS!

I remember back in the beginning of Batman, Inc. when this site first started discussing whether or not it was a good idea that I got into quite a few debates. People questioned why it was necessary for Bats to build an army in the first place. I pointed to the fact that Leviathan had been hinted at and you haters said it wasn't enough. Now we know that Leviathan is the al Ghul organization running an international conspiracy. That's something even Batman needs help with. You haters questioned if it was ethical since Bruce Wayne would be putting his employees in danger by admitting that he's financing the whole thing. I said that a man with a legion of Bat-Robots probably doesn't have to worry about that. Low and behold we got to see an example of the Bat-Bot security system at work in Batman, Inc. #6. I said the Batmen of All Nations would be involved and they have been vital cogs to Batman's plan. In fact, everything I said in those BIG, NASTY early arguments have been confirmed and justified. Grant Morrison knew what he was doing and what he was building from the start of this series, and I can't wait until we reach the grand finale.

I don't miss the lone, psychotic Batman at all. Frank Miller basically took that version of the character to his natural conclusion in All-Star Batman and you people hated that too. Grant's Batman run has been fun, textured, and complex. It's taken the entire history of the character and has used it to make Bruce Wayne feel fresh again. I didn't think that was even possible after two decades of reading Batman comics. So whine all you want, haters. One day you may figure out that you missed something really great.

@Jekylhyde14 said:

HI HATERS!

I remember back in the beginning of Batman, Inc. when this site first started discussing whether or not it was a good idea that I got into quite a few debates. People questioned why it was necessary for Bats to build an army in the first place. I pointed to the fact that Leviathan had been hinted at and you haters said it wasn't enough. Now we know that Leviathan is the al Ghul organization running an international conspiracy. That's something even Batman needs help with. You haters questioned if it was ethical since Bruce Wayne would be putting his employees in danger by admitting that he's financing the whole thing. I said that a man with a legion of Bat-Robots probably doesn't have to worry about that. Low and behold we got to see an example of the Bat-Bot security system at work in Batman, Inc. #6. I said the Batmen of All Nations would be involved and they have been vital cogs to Batman's plan. In fact, everything I said in those BIG, NASTY early arguments have been confirmed and justified. Grant Morrison knew what he was doing and what he was building from the start of this series, and I can't wait until we reach the grand finale.

The funniest thing in your argument is this : "Leviathan is the al Ghul organization running an international conspiracy. That's something even Batman needs help with".

First of all, it's not even the entire league, only the small part that stayed with Talia after Ra's' resurrection.

Secondly, Batman has been fighting the League of Assassins since the 1970's. He never needed the help of Batmen of All Nations, an army of robots and an international company directly linked to Wayne Enterprise to do so.

@Jekylhyde14 said:

I don't miss the lone, psychotic Batman at all. Frank Miller basically took that version of the character to his natural conclusion in All-Star Batman and you people hated that too. Grant's Batman run has been fun, textured, and complex. It's taken the entire history of the character and has used it to make Bruce Wayne feel fresh again. I didn't think that was even possible after two decades of reading Batman comics. So whine all you want, haters. One day you may figure out that you missed something really great.

Errr...you do realise that the craziest Batman in continuity was actually written by Grant Morrison in Arkham Asylum and that up until Inc., Morrison's Batman was just as crazy. That's actually the whole point of the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh, the "Zorro in Arkham".

And I loved Morrison's run and it is still very good but no, Morrison's Batman was never sane and no, Inc still does not make much sense.

@kennyshat said:

@DarthShap: I don't think that is really a fair assertion. Most of these Batman Inc. characters have only been a part of Bruce's life for, what? Two years real time? How much time that amounts to in the comics, I'm not sure, either way, a very short amount of time. Also, I think that the implication is that Bruce has gone and inducted each member of Batman Inc. into the organization personally, in which case he would have met all of them.

I'm not saying that the members of Batman Inc. are Bruce's replacement for his family but that they could be. The idea that I've always had for Bruce's tendency to surround himself with allies and peers has been that he's trying to replace his lost family. This explains why he has so many people he, not necessarily relies on, but works with very closely. At the same time, he's controlling and distant so that he doesn't have to worry as much about losing them like he lost his parents. Batman Inc. seems, to me, to be an extension of that part of his character. Batman Inc. is the product of Bruce finally realizing his tendency to surround himself with those allies and embracing it rather than looking at it as a weakness.

Anyway, I feel like this could veer into one of those internet arguments that turns ugly fast, and I value this site and community to much to let that happen. This is simply my opinion. I like the concept. A lot of people don't, and I understand why, I simply disagree. I've enjoyed this discussion, and I want to make sure it doesn't become adversarial. I look forward to any further thoughts you have.

I completely agree with you when you say that he does tend to surround himself with people to make up for his lost family and that he would look it as a strength, not as a weakness.

But this is not about that anymore. This is about an international company with Bat-robots and multiple Batmen. I feel that somewhere along the road, Morrison kind of forgot that Batman was mostly an urban character and that the Batman concept is specific to Gotham. By that I do not mean that Batman cannot leave Gotham but that the concept is inherently Gothamite. That's surprising coming from the guy who wrote Gothic and who basically linked the Waynes, the Batman mythos and Gotham historically in Return of Bruce Wayne.

@DarthShap said:

@Jekylhyde14 said:

HI HATERS!

I remember back in the beginning of Batman, Inc. when this site first started discussing whether or not it was a good idea that I got into quite a few debates. People questioned why it was necessary for Bats to build an army in the first place. I pointed to the fact that Leviathan had been hinted at and you haters said it wasn't enough. Now we know that Leviathan is the al Ghul organization running an international conspiracy. That's something even Batman needs help with. You haters questioned if it was ethical since Bruce Wayne would be putting his employees in danger by admitting that he's financing the whole thing. I said that a man with a legion of Bat-Robots probably doesn't have to worry about that. Low and behold we got to see an example of the Bat-Bot security system at work in Batman, Inc. #6. I said the Batmen of All Nations would be involved and they have been vital cogs to Batman's plan. In fact, everything I said in those BIG, NASTY early arguments have been confirmed and justified. Grant Morrison knew what he was doing and what he was building from the start of this series, and I can't wait until we reach the grand finale.

The funniest thing in your argument is this : "Leviathan is the al Ghul organization running an international conspiracy. That's something even Batman needs help with".

First of all, it's not even the entire league, only the small part that stayed with Talia after Ra's' resurrection.

Secondly, Batman has been fighting the League of Assassins since the 1970's. He never needed the help of Batmen of All Nations, an army of robots and an international company directly linked to Wayne Enterprise to do so.

First off, there's been nothing "small" about the Leviathan Conspiracy so far. It's been pervasive across several countries and communities including Mtamba, Japan, and Native American reservations. Batman knew that he would need international agents to help him investigate and break up these Leviathan cells which is where the Batmen of All Nations came in. Leviathan has also been as much about propaganda and brainwashing as they have been about acts of terrorism. They've been recruiting child soldiers, training talented teenage girls to be assassins, they've been trying to dishearten the Native American community to get them to turn to crime, and now they're even tainting beef with, lord knows, what. Leviathan has basically been fighting a war of ideals and beliefs as much as anything else, and that's a war Batman knew he couldn't fight by himself. To battle against that, he needed to start Batman, Inc. to create an idea system against that of Leviathan. If they were going to train the next generation of terrorist then he was going to train the next generation of hero and he was going to do it out in the open to give the people Leviathan was hurting something to believe in. Remember, Batman said from the beginning that he was going to fight the idea of crime with the idea of Batman. He needed to be out in the open with an organization of his own to do that and he needed the support of Wayne Enterprises to build that organization.

Also, this isn't the first time that he's needed help against the al Ghul family, Remember in Tower of Babel that it took the combined efforts of the JLA to ruin Ra's' plans. Now, Ra's is no longer in control. It's Talia which should probably make Bruce a little more nervous since "Hell hath no fury..." and all that. Talia has been pretty formidable thus far even without using Merlyn and the rest of the ineffectual League of Assassins, so maybe she's even worse than her father. Yes, Batman has been fighting the al Ghul's since the 70's but now they're worse than ever and I think that's been pretty obvious from the story so far. This is a massive war of both action and ideals. Batman needed a group of his own to counter it.

@DarthShap said:

@Jekylhyde14 said:

I don't miss the lone, psychotic Batman at all. Frank Miller basically took that version of the character to his natural conclusion in All-Star Batman and you people hated that too. Grant's Batman run has been fun, textured, and complex. It's taken the entire history of the character and has used it to make Bruce Wayne feel fresh again. I didn't think that was even possible after two decades of reading Batman comics. So whine all you want, haters. One day you may figure out that you missed something really great.

Errr...you do realise that the craziest Batman in continuity was actually written by Grant Morrison in Arkham Asylum and that up until Inc., Morrison's Batman was just as crazy. That's actually the whole point of the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh, the "Zorro in Arkham".

And I loved Morrison's run and it is still very good but no, Morrison's Batman was never sane and no, Inc still does not make much sense.

And you're right about one thing, The Zur-En-Arrh Batman was Batman during a complete psychotic collapse. However, you obviously missed the joke. Didn't you notice how the Zur-En-Arrh Batman spoke and acted like the grim and gritty Batman of the Frank Miller era? He as wearing a brighter costume, sure, but he was brutalizing thugs and torturing villains by beating them with a bat. He even tells Charlie Caligula right before he tortures him that the Zur-En-Arrh Batman is "what you get when you take Bruce out of the equation." That's the joke. The "Zorro in Arkham" is the grim and gritty Batman who so many of you want back. He's the lone vigilante who sits by himself in his Batcave brooding, obsessing, and getting off on the idea of breaking some muggers ribs. He's the guy with no connection to humanity or to his civilian identity who represents the mind of the Batman streamlined. That was the joke. If you ask me, the whole point of Batman R.I.P. was to put that Batman to rest. It was to let him be of use one last time to help Bruce beat the Black Glove and then for him to make way for the new man who would come back from the jaws of death in his place. That's another reason why Bruce Wayne had to come out as the benefactor of Batman, Inc. It was to make Bruce important again and to give him a connection to his secret identity so he wouldn't go off the deep end like that again and permanently become the Zorro in Arkham. Morrison's run does make sense. You just have to be paying attention.

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@DarthShap said:

@Jekylhyde14 said:

HI HATERS!

I remember back in the beginning of Batman, Inc. when this site first started discussing whether or not it was a good idea that I got into quite a few debates. People questioned why it was necessary for Bats to build an army in the first place. I pointed to the fact that Leviathan had been hinted at and you haters said it wasn't enough. Now we know that Leviathan is the al Ghul organization running an international conspiracy. That's something even Batman needs help with. You haters questioned if it was ethical since Bruce Wayne would be putting his employees in danger by admitting that he's financing the whole thing. I said that a man with a legion of Bat-Robots probably doesn't have to worry about that. Low and behold we got to see an example of the Bat-Bot security system at work in Batman, Inc. #6. I said the Batmen of All Nations would be involved and they have been vital cogs to Batman's plan. In fact, everything I said in those BIG, NASTY early arguments have been confirmed and justified. Grant Morrison knew what he was doing and what he was building from the start of this series, and I can't wait until we reach the grand finale.

The funniest thing in your argument is this : "Leviathan is the al Ghul organization running an international conspiracy. That's something even Batman needs help with".

First of all, it's not even the entire league, only the small part that stayed with Talia after Ra's' resurrection.

Secondly, Batman has been fighting the League of Assassins since the 1970's. He never needed the help of Batmen of All Nations, an army of robots and an international company directly linked to Wayne Enterprise to do so.

First off, there's been nothing "small" about the Leviathan Conspiracy so far. It's been pervasive across several countries and communities including Mtamba, Japan, and Native American reservations. Batman knew that he would need international agents to help him investigate and break up these Leviathan cells which is where the Batmen of All Nations came in. Leviathan has also been as much about propaganda and brainwashing as they have been about acts of terrorism. They've been recruiting child soldiers, training talented teenage girls to be assassins, they've been trying to dishearten the Native American community to get them to turn to crime, and now they're even tainting beef with, lord knows, what. Leviathan has basically been fighting a war of ideals and beliefs as much as anything else, and that's a war Batman knew he couldn't fight by himself. To battle against that, he needed to start Batman, Inc. to create an idea system against that of Leviathan. If they were going to train the next generation of terrorist then he was going to train the next generation of hero and he was going to do it out in the open to give the people Leviathan was hurting something to believe in. Remember, Batman said from the beginning that he was going to fight the idea of crime with the idea of Batman. He needed to be out in the open with an organization of his own to do that and he needed the support of Wayne Enterprises to build that organization.

Also, this isn't the first time that he's needed help against the al Ghul family, Remember in Tower of Babel that it took the combined efforts of the JLA to ruin Ra's' plans. Now, Ra's is no longer in control. It's Talia which should probably make Bruce a little more nervous since "Hell hath no fury..." and all that. Talia has been pretty formidable thus far even without using Merlyn and the rest of the ineffectual League of Assassins, so maybe she's even worse than her father. Yes, Batman has been fighting the al Ghul's since the 70's but now they're worse than ever and I think that's been pretty obvious from the story so far. This is a massive war of both action and ideals. Batman needed a group of his own to counter it.

That's not what I got from Tower of Babel. Ra's' plan was to neutralize the League because he feared that they would get involved and stop his plans but it does not mean that only with their combined strength would Batman have a chance to beat him. Actually, it means that any of them could potentially beat the League by himself.

And you misread what I meant. Of course it is bigger than ever before but not because it's the League of Assassins. As I said, it's only part of the League, the rest is with Ra's. As for it being this strong, this global and this ideological now, it's just bad writing. Where does it come from? How can Talia do this in a matter of months when Ra's' could not do it in centuries? It just does not make any sense. Morrison just pulled all of those resources and competences out of his @$$.

It's kind of like Prometheus in Cry for Justice. Robinson made him so overpowered that not only could he beat the League by himself in a few seconds but he had also created overly prepared bombs and schemes that made it absolutely impossible for the heroes to do anything but to let him go.

My point is it all feels forced and contrived. Morrison overpowered half of the League of Assassins (and I am being very very nice giving her half of the League considering how alone Talia was in Resurrection) to insane levels so that Batman had no other option other than to create an equality as big global army backed up by Wayne Enterprise.

Well he could have called the Justice League that his father feared so much but apparently...not.

@Jekylhyde14 said:

And you're right about one thing, The Zur-En-Arrh Batman was Batman during a complete psychotic collapse. However, you obviously missed the joke. Didn't you notice how the Zur-En-Arrh Batman spoke and acted like the grim and gritty Batman of the Frank Miller era? He as wearing a brighter costume, sure, but he was brutalizing thugs and torturing villains by beating them with a bat. He even tells Charlie Caligula right before he tortures him that the Zur-En-Arrh Batman is "what you get when you take Bruce out of the equation." That's the joke. The "Zorro in Arkham" is the grim and gritty Batman who so many of you want back. He's the lone vigilante who sits by himself in his Batcave brooding, obsessing, and getting off on the idea of breaking some muggers ribs. He's the guy with no connection to humanity or to his civilian identity who represents the mind of the Batman streamlined. That was the joke. If you ask me, the whole point of Batman R.I.P. was to put that Batman to rest. It was to let him be of use one last time to help Bruce beat the Black Glove and then for him to make way for the new man who would come back from the jaws of death in his place. That's another reason why Bruce Wayne had to come out as the benefactor of Batman, Inc. It was to make Bruce important again and to give him a connection to his secret identity so he wouldn't go off the deep end like that again and permanently become the Zorro in Arkham. Morrison's run does make sense. You just have to be paying attention.

No, I got the joke all right but to invent yourself a back-up personality like that, one has to be completely insane. The very fact that Batman created this second personality for this particular type of attack goes against the idea that it is what Batman was for the last two decades. And as I said, Morrison was the one who explored Batman's madness in Arkham Asylum in the first place. The point of Morrison's run was to reconcile the modern Batman (basically the O'Neil-Miller Batman) with elements from his past, the silver age in particular, not to put an end to it.

In Morrison's run there is definitely more of Bruce Wayne and Morrison is clearly saying that he is doing better now (that was kind of the point he made in 52 too) but he is still not OK. And he publicly backing Batman is just stupid. It's dangerous for his company and for his secret identity.

@DarthShap:

I was going to go at you point for point again (and I could), but, no, it's a waste of my time. I'm just going to point out how much time you've personally spent trying to justify why you don't like Batman, Inc. Your comments litter this article. The fact that you have to spend so much time and energy to knock Morrison's Batman is further proof of what a brilliant run it is. The truth is that it's so smart that it has guys like you chasing your own tails to bash it down and it's still one of the most popular and memorable Batman runs in years. Here's the truth, brother: Not everything in this story is going to make perfect sense. However, there isn't a single Batman story in the history of the character that makes perfect sense. You're either on the bus or you're off. If you're off then I don't see why you have to sacrifice so much of you're time to justifying it. ...Unless Morrison really is doing something special and the fact that you're not on board bothers you more than you're willing to admit ;).

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@DarthShap:

I was going to go at you point for point again (and I could), but, no, it's a waste of my time. I'm just going to point out how much time you've personally spent trying to justify why you don't like Batman, Inc. Your comments litter this article. The fact that you have to spend so much time and energy to knock Morrison's Batman is further proof of what a brilliant run it is. The truth is that it's so smart that it has guys like you chasing your own tails to bash it down and it's still one of the most popular and memorable Batman runs in years. Here's the truth, brother: Not everything in this story is going to make perfect sense. However, there isn't a single Batman story in the history of the character that makes perfect sense. You're either on the bus or you're off. If you're off then I don't see why you have to sacrifice so much of you're time to justifying it. ...Unless Morrison really is doing something special and the fact that you're not on board bothers you more than you're willing to admit ;).

Wow! You could! I AM impressed.

As for Morrison, I am but a disappointed fan, that is the only reason why I stand by my criticism, so spare me your pseudo-psychological crap. I read everything he did for DC and Vertigo. I loved the first part of his run and I still believe that it is one of the best Batman runs if not the best. But this Inc. is just stupid and it seems to me he just did not know where to go with the character after Darkseid/Hurt was beaten and just chose the lazy and easy way out: "just go big, people will like it."

It is his blockbuster when the rest of his run was everything but that. It's a shame because on the contrary his best work on the character, that is the rest of his run, Gothic and Arkham Asylum, is rather minimalist.

@DarthShap:

*Rolls eyes*

The work will speak for itself. Batman,Inc. #6 responds to critics far better than I ever could. Find better things to do with your time than whine on message boards.

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@DarthShap:

*Rolls eyes*

The work will speak for itself. Batman,Inc. #6 responds to critics far better than I ever could. Find better things to do with your time than whine on message boards.

So you also can roll your eyes? Most impressive.

"The work will speak for itself". Not it does not. It is not explained anywhere how making Batman a global franchise is a smart direction for the book.

As for #6, great execution as always for this blockbuster war but all it really does is overpower both sides to ridiculous levels. And the explanation "if it's on the Internet, it must be wrong" is just cliché. And again, Batman trolling on message boards is not exactly the greatest use of the character in my opinion.

Finally, I find it rather surprising that you would tell me how to behave on message boards seeing how pretentiously you entered the thread.

@DarthShap:

LOL!

Look at how mad it is! It wants to be right so badly that it's going to squeeze each argument to the last drop. It's like Grant Morrison kicked its mother in the stomach. How sad :/.

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@DarthShap:

LOL!

Look at how mad it is! It wants to be right so badly that it's going to squeeze each argument to the last drop. It's like Grant Morrison kicked its mother in the stomach. How sad :/.

I am really not mad. To be honest, I am rather amused. I am sorry but I am not the one who is desperately trying to make it personal. You however introduce yourself with "Hi Haters" (apparently referring to the people who disagreed with you back then, begging the question "who was really traumatised between the two of us?"), try to psychologically analyse a perfectly reasonable criticism and prefers to attack the Viner and not the argument, to the point where you are now talking about my mother.

In this post, you dropped every pretense. You are not even trying to talk about the book. I am sorry, I came here to talk about comics.

@DarthShap:

Nah, you came here to complain and start arguments. That's why YOU came after ME in the first place. You thought by taking me on that you'd be able to find the triumph of your point of view and therefore fulfillment. But I've been down this road before. I look at how many posts you've done and how much you've argued. You're the kind of guy that tries to win debates by sheer volume. You think that if you keep talking then eventually everyone will have to bow down to your ideas. I'm much more amused to interact with you like this. Feeling fulfilled yet?

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@DarthShap:

Nah, you came here to complain and start arguments. That's why YOU came after ME in the first place. You thought by taking me on that you'd be able to find the triumph of your point of view and therefore fulfillment. But I've been down this road before. I look at how many posts you've done and how much you've argued. You're the kind of guy that tries to win debates by sheer volume. You think that if you keep talking then eventually everyone will have to bow down to your ideas. I'm much more amused to interact with you like this. Feeling fulfilled yet?

If thought this site and this section was there to give opinions about comics. If you do not want to talk about it, fine by me. :)

I am sorry I tried to make it about arguments.

@DarthShap:

Peace, sunshine ;).

@DarthShap said:

@kennyshat said:

@DarthShap: I don't think that is really a fair assertion. Most of these Batman Inc. characters have only been a part of Bruce's life for, what? Two years real time? How much time that amounts to in the comics, I'm not sure, either way, a very short amount of time. Also, I think that the implication is that Bruce has gone and inducted each member of Batman Inc. into the organization personally, in which case he would have met all of them.

I'm not saying that the members of Batman Inc. are Bruce's replacement for his family but that they could be. The idea that I've always had for Bruce's tendency to surround himself with allies and peers has been that he's trying to replace his lost family. This explains why he has so many people he, not necessarily relies on, but works with very closely. At the same time, he's controlling and distant so that he doesn't have to worry as much about losing them like he lost his parents. Batman Inc. seems, to me, to be an extension of that part of his character. Batman Inc. is the product of Bruce finally realizing his tendency to surround himself with those allies and embracing it rather than looking at it as a weakness.

Anyway, I feel like this could veer into one of those internet arguments that turns ugly fast, and I value this site and community to much to let that happen. This is simply my opinion. I like the concept. A lot of people don't, and I understand why, I simply disagree. I've enjoyed this discussion, and I want to make sure it doesn't become adversarial. I look forward to any further thoughts you have.

I completely agree with you when you say that he does tend to surround himself with people to make up for his lost family and that he would look it as a strength, not as a weakness.

But this is not about that anymore. This is about an international company with Bat-robots and multiple Batmen. I feel that somewhere along the road, Morrison kind of forgot that Batman was mostly an urban character and that the Batman concept is specific to Gotham. By that I do not mean that Batman cannot leave Gotham but that the concept is inherently Gothamite. That's surprising coming from the guy who wrote Gothic and who basically linked the Waynes, the Batman mythos and Gotham historically in Return of Bruce Wayne.

You seem to be hung up on Batman Inc. being a company. I guess I'm not sure why that makes a difference. Making Batman Inc. part of Wayne Enterprises was simply a way for Bruce to explain where the money was going, especially given that his expenditures would have to increase exponentially with the addition of multiple Batman. I don't have a problem with the Bat-bots either because it's a concept (Bruce using Batman robots to patrol Gotham) that has been used on multiple occasions, Kingdom Come and Batman Beyond both coming most readily. I guess both times it's kind of blown up in his face, or at least made him out to be a little bit of bad guy, but I don't think Bruce has ever been afraid to be the bad guy if it's what it takes to do what he thinks is best for those he considers under his protection.

As far as Batman expanding beyond Gotham, on one hand, I understand your problem (and Sara's, incidentally) with it, but I think Bruce would consider it his responsibility to expand his operations to protect those areas that are being threatened by Leviathan, an enemy that is ultimately targeting him. In this case, these other territories are in danger because of him, or at least because of someone gunning for him, and his wanting to make sure that they are, in turn, protected, makes sense. It seems that the only real purpose Bruce has in mind for Batman Inc. is to fight Leviathan. If Bruce has plans for the organization beyond that doesn't seem clear.

@kennyshat said:

You seem to be hung up on Batman Inc. being a company. I guess I'm not sure why that makes a difference. Making Batman Inc. part of Wayne Enterprises was simply a way for Bruce to explain where the money was going, especially given that his expenditures would have to increase exponentially with the addition of multiple Batman. I don't have a problem with the Bat-bots either because it's a concept (Bruce using Batman robots to patrol Gotham) that has been used on multiple occasions, Kingdom Come and Batman Beyond both coming most readily. I guess both times it's kind of blown up in his face, or at least made him out to be a little bit of bad guy, but I don't think Bruce has ever been afraid to be the bad guy if it's what it takes to do what he thinks is best for those he considers under his protection.

Either Batman is a deranged man or he is man with an ideal. I know that Nolan is trying to push the latter but I happen to think that he is just the one man. He is a man who lost his mind after "a bad day" and who uses his insanity to fight Crime. That is what Morrison was going for up until Inc. (“What are you?”, “Stronger than them. Stronger than this place.”;“That’s insane.”; “Exactly. Arkham was right, sometimes it’s only madness that makes us what we are. Or destiny perhaps”) Batman had become a symbol but not willingly. He just wanted to scare Gotham's cowardly criminals and he happened to be very good at it.

As for the robots, you are right it is something we have seen in the past (Brother Eye is another good example of that) and knowing that Batman is based around fear (which reminds me of a nice moment in Sinestro Corps War), it should come as no surprise that he can feel a bit totalitarian at times.

By the end of the day, in my opinion, there should be only one Batman. The mantle can be passed and I loved both times Dick replaced him but Batman is Bruce Wayne and he should not have to explain that he is the "original Batman".

@kennyshat said:

As far as Batman expanding beyond Gotham, on one hand, I understand your problem (and Sara's, incidentally) with it, but I think Bruce would consider it his responsibility to expand his operations to protect those areas that are being threatened by Leviathan, an enemy that is ultimately targeting him. In this case, these other territories are in danger because of him, or at least because of someone gunning for him, and his wanting to make sure that they are, in turn, protected, makes sense. It seems that the only real purpose Bruce has in mind for Batman Inc. is to fight Leviathan. If Bruce has plans for the organization beyond that doesn't seem clear.

Again, it makes sense within the context of the story (although I do think that there is no way the League of Assassins became this powerful this fast, especially with a good chunk of it still faithful to Ra's) but I just do not think it is the right direction for the character, who belongs in Gotham.

So yes, as G-Man said, it has become a necessity but as always, it's about a writer's choice. Saying "there is no alternative" for a hero of fiction is meaningless. It is like saying "Batman had to play hockey in Batman & Robin because the floor of that museum was icy, the diamond was on the floor and the villains had sticks!". ^^

@DarthShap: Hm, the "Batman as a symbol vs. Batman as a man" debate might ultimately be where the separation happens for people on whether or not they like Batman Inc. It's an angle I hadn't considered before. I see your point that Morrison had been establishing Batman as a man rather than a symbol up until RIP, but Return of Bruce Wayne transformed the Batman concept into something much more elemental. It turned the Batman into legend. I think Bruce realized that the Batman was bigger than just him after his return and decided to embrace it. That's just me.

It'll be interesting to see if Batman Inc. sticks around after the Leviathan arc is finished. I seem to remember it originally being announced that he was going to do a 12 issue limited series called Leviathan to finish the arc, but now it seems that they are going to conclude it in the new Batman Inc. ongoing. I wonder if he's going to keep writing it after Leviathan (and subsequently his Batman story) is finished or if he's going to hand it off to another writer ala Batman and Robin pre-New 52.

@kennyshat said:

@DarthShap: Hm, the "Batman as a symbol vs. Batman as a man" debate might ultimately be where the separation happens for people on whether or not they like Batman Inc. It's an angle I hadn't considered before. I see your point that Morrison had been establishing Batman as a man rather than a symbol up until RIP, but Return of Bruce Wayne transformed the Batman concept into something much more elemental. It turned the Batman into legend. I think Bruce realized that the Batman was bigger than just him after his return and decided to embrace it. That's just me.

That is definitely how it went down but I just do not think it is the right direction for the character and neither does editorial at DC apparently because ever since September, they have prioritized the Snyder approach, limited to Gotham and to the one Batman (with the help of his closest allies for crossover money).

@kennyshat said:

It'll be interesting to see if Batman Inc. sticks around after the Leviathan arc is finished. I seem to remember it originally being announced that he was going to do a 12 issue limited series called Leviathan to finish the arc, but now it seems that they are going to conclude it in the new Batman Inc. ongoing. I wonder if he's going to keep writing it after Leviathan (and subsequently his Batman story) is finished or if he's going to hand it off to another writer ala Batman and Robin pre-New 52.

In my opinion, Inc, the concept, is not here to stay. Now the series will probably last longer than 12 issues but as soon as Morrison is out the door, or even before if DC asks him to do it by the end of its run, it's gone.

And it is already causing continuity problems. In Inc. #6, Bruce Wayne had robots everywhere. In Snyder's Batman, Bruce Wayne has already been attacked twice in 9 issues and those robots are nowhere to be found.

Another problem with it is that if it is indeed character development, there should be no reason for it to disappear. If it is not just a way to fight against Leviathan but his new method of crime-fighting "associating Crime with Batman" in the minds of people all around the world, like he said in The Return, then why are we already back-peddling? Nightwing stopped being Batman, Inc's latest recruits are not called Batmen (like Japanese Batman was) and from the looks of it, Inc is now to be this one time thing.

As an editorial direction for "Batman" and as character development for Bruce (since it is something he will have to go back on at some point), I do not think it was the right decision.

@kennyshat said:

@DarthShap Your point about continuity is one I hasn't considered. Most times I ignore continuity across books in the interest of keeping my sanity and just focus on big events and the continuity of each arc, especially given the myriad continuity issues that the New 52 as a whole has introduced. Ultimately, I think that the Batman Inc. concept fits what Morrison is doing with the character very well. Whether or not it fits with Batman in the larger DCU is debatable. I ultimately think the concept is going to go away as well, probably with it blowing up in Bruce's face, or it might just disappear into the limbos of continuity. Either way, it's a crazy turn for the character and I'm on board for the rest of Morrison's run. But then, I'm a huge Morrison fan just because of how crazy the majority of his stories are. His stories can almost always be guaranteed to be something different and as someone who's been reading comics, especially Batman comics, for most of my life, it's something I appreciate. Either way, I can't wait to see where this goes.

I am also a big Morrison fan. Like I said, I read pretty much everything he has done for DC/Vertigo. I do not think it is the right direction for the character but it is still a very good comic book and definitely different from what other writers do.

And you are probably right, at times it is best not to think about continuity too much but what can I say? Morrison is the one who taught me that "everything was in continuity". Irony. ^^

Batman Inc. is a cool concept but i ain't ok with it . everyone now knows bruce is the bats

@FoxxFireArt said:

I'm with Sara that this more feels like Batman being a terrorist to push vigilantes onto other countries. Gotham needs a Batman, but it's absolutely arrogant that he's going to other countries and forcing them to accept his private military. That's basically what he's created. A Batman equivalent to Black Water. Some of these heroes were already in those areas, but what about the ones he's actively sending out to places?

Batman is suppose to be the ultimate loner, but making a team of heroes under his command to fight crime. What? Was the Justice League too flamboyant for the job?

I don't think its a good idea, either, for several reasons (most of which have probably already been stated):

-What happened to bruce being the loner? The one who refuses the help of his own 'sons' at times?

-It cheapens the legacy/mythos of batman. It took however many years of traveling the world, learning the different arts, etc. Plus, a BIG part of what sets bruce apart is his willpower. Batman, inc, imo, takes away from the special circumstances and "extraordinariness" of what batman has stood for over the years. Come on everybody! You can be a batman, too!

-Isn't Bruce the one always concerned about the Justice League overstepping their bounds, becoming too powerful, etc? And a huge part of his problem with that is accountability, right? So is it logical that he forms an international team who answers to him? Sure, they are supposed to answer to authorities but, let something go down and see who the batmen follow

@Sammo21 said:

Batman Inc seems to me to be the antithesis of what makes Batman him and cool. Also it seems to make people not knowing Bruce and Damian's superhero identities even more of a suspension of disbelief.

Agreed