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    Batman Eternal

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    The New 52's first weekly series starring Batman and his large cast of supporting characters, both friend and foe.

    Batman Eternal #52

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    Undeadpool

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    Edited By Undeadpool

    The Good

    There aren’t many bigger cliffhangers to end on than the one that last issue gave us. After a litany of issues wondering who the true mastermind behind the entire storyline, from the very start with the fateful shot in the train station that landed Jim Gordon in jail, last issue gave one answer before pulling the rug out on it and slapping the reader across the face with another one. The brilliance of the reveal is that the reader shares Batman’s shock. The reader was played as readily and easily as Bats himself, creating sympathy for a character who sometimes finds that particular feeling in short supply. Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, Ray Fawkes, Kyle Higgins and Tim Seeley open the issue with a flashback to the genesis of this whole thing, showing how the seemingly disparate participants first came together and how one of the most audacious schemes in all of Gotham’s history was hatched right under the nose of its most watchful protectors. The plot coalesces and we get an incredible throw-down between the mastermind and Bats as the rest of the Bat-Family struggle to keep Gotham as together as they can while the cops and the crooks find themselves with some unlikely commonality in the midst of all this total chaos. It would be hard to stress how utterly satisfying this ending is and how well the pieces come together, tracing a throughline that goes all the way back to issue 1. This is, for all intents and purposes, a 52-issue story arc that hangs together and makes organic, if not always completely realistic, sense and that’s to the immense credit of the above writers.

    It would take many multiple pages to list the specific accomplishments of the litany of artists that have their hands on this issue, but at the very least their names deserve to be recognized as Robson Rocha and Guillermo Ortega bookend the title, as well as filling out a couple of pages in the middle while David LaFuente, Tim Seeley and Raw Fawkes give us glances at the various players in the aftermath of the catastrophic attack and, for the most part, it works well enough, each style matching the general tone and characters of the section it’s used on. Eduardo Pansica and Julio Ferreira are the primary contributors to the linework, illustrating the main bulk of the story and giving us an absolutely smashmouth, breakneck issue of the kind of fight Batman isn’t used to having: a messy, sloppy brawl. Bats is too exhausted to use any of his trademark sharp, clean style and must resort to getting his hands dirty (and bloody) in a proper melee and it looks great. Allen Passalaqua handles colors for those pages and almost seems to animate a Gotham being quickly engulfed in flames as the Bat and the mastermind battle their way through it and everyone else tries simply to hold it together. Passalaqua balances the darkness and light beautifully, making Gotham look dark, even as it burns, but it never looks hopeless. Gabe Eltaeb, John Kalisz and John Rauch provide colors on the other pages, and from top-to-bottom, they look fantastic.

    The Bad

    Individually, the different segments of this issue look great but taken as a whole, there is a disconnect, especially on the pages that aren’t related to specific characters. And even when they are, some of the styles are similar-but-different enough that they feel like they’re invoking the same style, but the differences are clear enough to be obvious.

    Scott Snyder has been incredible at making Batman and his world relatable, but at this point Gotham has undergone no fewer than three absolute, city-shattering catastrophes in about six years (and that leaves out the Night of Owlsin which several prominent political figures were murdered) and at SOME point, it becomes a question as to why people live in this city. It has been burnt down no fewer than three times and, beyond a few minor mentions, no one on the street level seems to care. This also serves to greatly lessen the punch that each catastrophe inflicts, particularly as this event is coming to a close just as Endgame is ratcheting up.

    The Verdict

    First things first: the mastermind revealed last issue looked different, and the new look was less evocative of his general theme, but this issue revealed that it was simply an alternate version of the same costume and it still looks fantastic this issue. Beyond that, the Bat-Family really comes together and the various plotlines coalesce as new relationships and even new POTENTIAL relationships form to give a near-limitless amount of potential for future stories. Which are also incredibly interesting. BATMAN ETERNAL's team managed to pull out an ending that feels satisfying and even gives a sense of finality. With as much as this book accomplished, and as solid as the ending is, this one's going to be looked back upon fondly.

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    quiteliderally

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    The ending was fantastic, but this just did not need to be a weekly series, and it was hurt by that. It feels like a great story was sacrificed for a money grab.

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    BatteredArmor

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    #2  Edited By BatteredArmor

    "it becomes a question as to why people live in this city"

    Hasn't this always been a legitimate question?

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    MuyJingo

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    #3  Edited By MuyJingo

    There was no shock. I and others called that it was Lincoln months ago.

    It's been a fun ride though. Despite all the hype, the only thing that seemed to have changed is that Gordon is not commissioner...but we see that even that reverts back between Eternal and Endgame.

    As far as Batman stories in the New52, I'd rank this somewhere between Snyder's run and Tomassi's on B&R, which still remains in the top spot with a very long lead.

    It really bugs me how quickly Harper went from annoyance to Batman to fully fledged sidekick who can effortlessly beat up Stephanie.

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    obsidian_raindrop1

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    Damn it this is getting me to ship jason and babs

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    #5  Edited By Jonny_Anonymous

    It's about time he turned back up... and no I don't mean Owlman.

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    dannymalt

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    "three absolute, city-shattering catastrophes in about six years"

    1) Zero Year. Gotham City is flooded, Riddler takes over city.
    2) Batman Eternal. Entire city burning, Arkham Asylum destroyed, several villains on the loose.
    3) Batman: Endgame. Joker turned entire city into joker-ized zombie people with the Joker toxin.

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    czechoslovakia

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    why does gotham still have citizens

    is batman forcing them to stay so he can save them

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: I don't think it was confirmed that Gordon was police commissioner again in Batman Endgame yet, just that he was out of jail. But I could just be remembering wrong.

    Also I don't think steph really had that much training, while Harper has been getting trained by red robin and batman.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: I don't think it was confirmed that Gordon was police commissioner again in Batman Endgame yet, just that he was out of jail. But I could just be remembering wrong.

    Also I don't think steph really had that much training, while Harper has been getting trained by red robin and batman.

    She didn't have training, she just jumped into the fray with them. She got admonished a few times, if you want to count that as training...

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    dadarkknight36310

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    @blackarmor: The same can be said about why do people live in NYC in the marvel universe.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: I though it was implied. And besides hanging out with batman and red robin is probably more beneficial than what Stephanie has done. Not sure she even has training.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324: I didn't see so much as a line of dialogue indicating Harper was being given training. Where was the implication?

    And you're right. What Harper has done is more substantial than what Stephanie had done. That was my complaint.

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    cobra88king8

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    #13  Edited By cobra88king8

    Gotham has been destroyed 5 times. Endgame, Zero Year, Throne of Atlantis, Forever Evil, and now Eternal. I don't understand how it has a population above double digits at this point.

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    asjmooney

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    Was worried about the final after last week butg yet again I was not let down by the Eternal team. The amount of artists on this really did make it less enjoyable.

    Capullo should have done the art on this and it would have been perfect.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: I don't think a line was needed. She spent a large amount of time hainging out with red Robin. They traveled to Asia together, and she helped him with his tech. She had to be trained in order to help. She also helped batman go to catwomans club, and was fighting Mr freeze. Batman isn't gonna let someone with no training do that stuff. She obviously has received some type of training. She probably learned a lot just by watching batman.

    If your complaint was just that Stephanie has no training then that's fine, I'm sure she will get some.

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    MuyJingo

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    #16  Edited By MuyJingo

    @jayc1324: You can view it that way, I guess, although it's just an assumption on your part.

    I saw it as her just being ready and Drake letting her tag along. As soon as she becomes Bluebird, twenty issues or so ago, she is shown as more capable than Stephanie is at the end of Eternal.

    That is the basis of my complaint. I'm not sure how you misconstrued it otherwise.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: I did not misconstrue your complaint, I'm just explaining that harper row does have training from batman and Tim Drake, which explains why she beat steph so easily.

    I wouldn't call it an assumption either. Fighting Mr freeze, stomping steph, helping out Tim Drake, helping batman take down thugs and using hi tech gear = she had training.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324: Sigh.

    You did misconstrue my complaint. You somehow thought it was that Stephanie did not have training, when I stated quite clearly what it was above.

    It is purely an assumption on your part. She was shown capable as soon as she donned the costume, before working with Drake and Bruce, so no, she wasn't shown to have or need training. That's just bad writing on Snyder's part, to promote his creation. You can assume she received some supplemental training, but that is irrelevant to my point.

    I know better than to ask you to support your opinions, so lets just agree to disagree.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: I was just making it clear to you that she didn't.

    No its not an assumption. You really think a teenage girl with no training can take on Mr. freeze and help batman infiltrate a club ran by Catwoman? Its not bad writing, and its not an assumption. That is not something an untrained person can do. Sounds like you're just upset harper is better than Stephanie. I'm not sure how harper taking down thugs with batman is not proof that she had training. Its not really an opinion. Unless you have something to support your opinion that an untrained person can do what she did.

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    MuyJingo

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    #20  Edited By MuyJingo

    @jayc1324: This after the penguin thread. Your internal threshold for what you consider proof is so incredibly low, it's astounding.

    It's an assumption until you can provide proof. You have a history of insisting you have provided proof when you haven't, and that seems to be what you're doing here. Not only that, but you ignore contradictory evidence. So, I see nothing further to be gained from discussing this with you.

    Have fun.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: Beating up thugs with batman is proof. Fighting freeze is proof. An untrained person can't do that. Now if you think she's untrained, show proof that an untrained person can do those things. Go.

    No, I don't have a history of doing that. You are just avoiding the argument because you have no proof that harper is untrained. On the other hand, I have given examples of her using her training. Your turn.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: Beating up thugs with batman is proof. Fighting freeze is proof.

    LOL.

    WHOOOOOOOSH.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: another response meant to hide/distract from your lack of proof. Prove an untrained person can do that.

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    MuyJingo

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    #24  Edited By MuyJingo

    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: another response meant to hide/distract from your lack of proof. Prove an untrained person can do that.

    No thanks.

    Not only did the point I made fly completely over your head, you've tried shifting the burden of proof on to me because you erroneously continue to think your assumptions constitute proof.

    I'm not interesting in discussing something with someone who has no idea of what constitutes proof, can't follow a simple argument and continues to insist they have provided evidence when they have't.

    I've explained to you in detail why you haven't provided proof, just as I did in the penguin thread. You're too thick to understand what I explained to you or too stubborn to admit your mistake. Or both.

    It's actually pretty similar to troll behavior, although I know that you are not trolling, just mistaken and unable to understand why what you think of as proof is anything but. Thanks to this little discussion, I now know to avoid you in the future.

    If you want to at any time acknowledge that you haven't provided proof, then the discussion can progress. I don't see you as being capable of doing that however.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: then explain to me how fighting Mr freeze isn't proof. Tell me how that doesn't prove she had training. That would mean that an untrained person can do that which isn't true. If you are so sure I haven't provided proof, then explain how, instead of making excuses.

    As I have said, harper took on Mr freeze pretty successfully for a rookie. An untrained person couldn't fight Mr freeze. Not sure how that isn't proof. You however have no given any proof at all that she is untrained. If anything you are acting like the troll. Avoiding giving proof and instead just calling my proof bad. Some random teenager girl off the street could not fight Mr freeze and infiltrate catwomans club with batman. Only a trained girl can do that.

    In short, if you don't think what I've said is proof explain why. And if you don't think harper has training then explain how an untrained girl can fight Mr. Freeze and takeover catwomans club

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    dondave

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    @blackarmor: The same can be said about why do people live in NYC in the marvel universe.

    NYC is protected a large contingent of super powered heroes, Gotham on the other hand is protected by Peak humans and one superhuman.

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    deathfalcon182

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    Does bruce get his fortune back in the end? I'll probably read from 40 on later but this part i wanna know.

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    MuyJingo

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    Does bruce get his fortune back in the end? I'll probably read from 40 on later but this part i wanna know.

    Not yet.

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    GustavoBurciaga1

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    I was way too excited to see Talon again! No I don't mean Owlman or Lincoln March but Clavin Rose, Talon. Seriously one of my favorite characters!

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    cerial442

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    #30  Edited By cerial442

    I enjoyed the series more than Zero Year (which I didn't like at all). This last issue was great.

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    dadarkknight36310

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    @dondave: it really does not matter because the Villan's still take out a lot of people before the heroes arrive.

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    SynCig

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    I thought issue 51 was great. That was probably a 5 star issue for me. Which may be why I was a bit letdown by the actual end here. I'd go 3 stars as the changing art bothered me a great deal and ultimately, the end was a bit cliche if I'm being honest. I liked aspects of it but it just didn't feel overly compelling. I think Eternal overall was really good though. Certainly better than I expected considering the weekly pace.

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    JakeN7

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    #33  Edited By JakeN7

    @muyjingo said:

    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: I don't think it was confirmed that Gordon was police commissioner again in Batman Endgame yet, just that he was out of jail. But I could just be remembering wrong.

    Also I don't think steph really had that much training, while Harper has been getting trained by red robin and batman.

    She didn't have training, she just jumped into the fray with them. She got admonished a few times, if you want to count that as training...

    She received full training.

    @muyjingo said:

    @jayc1324: I didn't see so much as a line of dialogue indicating Harper was being given training. Where was the implication?

    Batman Eternal #25
    Batman Eternal #25
    @dannymalt said:

    "three absolute, city-shattering catastrophes in about six years"

    1) Zero Year. Gotham City is flooded, Riddler takes over city.

    2) Batman Eternal. Entire city burning, Arkham Asylum destroyed, several villains on the loose.

    3) Batman: Endgame. Joker turned entire city into joker-ized zombie people with the Joker toxin.

    You forgot Leviathan's assault on Gotham over in Batman Inc.

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    JakeN7

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    #34  Edited By JakeN7

    @muyjingo said:

    @jayc1324: You can view it that way, I guess, although it's just an assumption on your part.

    It's not his assumption. It's established fact.

    @muyjingo said:

    @jayc1324:

    I saw it as her just being ready and Drake letting her tag along. As soon as she becomes Bluebird, twenty issues or so ago, she is shown as more capable than Stephanie is at the end of Eternal.

    It was a rather long road to her becoming Bluebird, and it seems you've forgotten what it took for her to get there. Also, it was not "twenty issues or so ago." It was ten issues. Bluebird debuted in Eternal in issue #42. That's 40+ issues of development (not even counting her appearances in Batman and Detective Comics) before she ever even dons a costume or picks a code name.

    Boy, you're just all sorts of wrong in this thread.

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    MuyJingo

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    #35  Edited By MuyJingo

    @jaken7 said:

    @muyjingo said:

    @jayc1324: You can view it that way, I guess, although it's just an assumption on your part.

    It's not his assumption. It's established fact.

    @muyjingo said:

    @jayc1324:

    I saw it as her just being ready and Drake letting her tag along. As soon as she becomes Bluebird, twenty issues or so ago, she is shown as more capable than Stephanie is at the end of Eternal.

    It was a rather long road to her becoming Bluebird, and it seems you've forgotten what it took for her to get there. Also, it was not "twenty issues or so ago." It was ten issues. Bluebird debuted in Eternal in issue #42. That's 42 issues of development (besides her appearances in Batman and Detective Comics) before she ever even dons a costume or picks a code name.

    Boy, you're just all sorts of wrong in this thread.

    Thanks for providing that scan. That is indeed proof, unlike the nonsense jayc1324 was spouting.

    However, you're certainly wrong by saying she received full training. We have proof that she received some training. Which isn't the same thing by any means.

    The 42 issues of character development don't matter as they didn't deal with her training, which is what is being discussed here.

    Since you're such an expert, what issue did Harper stow away on Tim's plane? That's the start, from what I remember (and I may well be wrong, I don't have the issues handy), where she actually started really involving herself with the Bat family and starting to be competent. Prior to that, she was taking on minor threats while being heavily armed.

    There may have been character development, but in my opinion, her training should have been fleshed out more. It jumps from her being barely competent to taking on major threats. I guess that line about Tim training her in Tokyo is meant to cover it, but I see that as bad writing and glossing over an important development.

    Even in that scan above, look how she effortlessly handles Tim. She shouldn't be able to handle him like that after receiving some training.

    My complaint is still valid, which is that her competency was fast tracked at the expense of other characters. It's something Snyder is guilty of in everything he write - invoking the worf effect for any new character he introduces.

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    JakeN7

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    #36  Edited By JakeN7

    @muyjingo said:

    @jaken7 said:

    @muyjingo said:

    @jayc1324: You can view it that way, I guess, although it's just an assumption on your part.

    It's not his assumption. It's established fact.

    @muyjingo said:

    @jayc1324:

    I saw it as her just being ready and Drake letting her tag along. As soon as she becomes Bluebird, twenty issues or so ago, she is shown as more capable than Stephanie is at the end of Eternal.

    It was a rather long road to her becoming Bluebird, and it seems you've forgotten what it took for her to get there. Also, it was not "twenty issues or so ago." It was ten issues. Bluebird debuted in Eternal in issue #42. That's 42 issues of development (besides her appearances in Batman and Detective Comics) before she ever even dons a costume or picks a code name.

    Boy, you're just all sorts of wrong in this thread.

    Thanks for providing that scan. That is indeed proof, unlike the nonsense jayc1324 was spouting.

    Mmm-hmm.

    @muyjingo said:

    The 42 issues of character development don't matter as they didn't deal with her training, which is what is being discussed here.

    No, but most superheroes are able to do what they do based on formal and informal training.

    @muyjingo said:

    Since you're such an expert, what issue did Harper stow away on Tim's plane? That's the start, from what I remember (and I may well be wrong, I don't have the issues handy), where she actually started really involving herself with the Bat family and starting to be competent. Prior to that, she was taking on minor threats while being heavily armed.

    Issue 12 is where she hacks Tim's network and finds out where he is. 13 is where she breaks into Tim's HQ and then stows away on his plane. She's been competent for quite awhile, obviously.

    @muyjingo said:

    There may have been character development, but in my opinion, her training should have been fleshed out more. It jumps from her being barely competent to taking on major threats. I guess that line about Tim training her in Tokyo is meant to cover it, but I see that as bad writing and glossing over an important development.

    It doesn't jump as nearly as abruptly as you seem to think, which looks to be the main problem here.

    Really, her training in terms of panel coverage is comparable to Batman's own (something that has been historically saved for after-the-fact back-ups and one-shots or annuals). And he's a character that's been around for 70+ years longer than Harper.

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    JakeN7

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    #37  Edited By JakeN7

    @muyjingo said:

    Even in that scan above, look how she effortlessly handles Tim. She shouldn't be able to handle him like that after receiving some training.

    She didn't.

    No Caption Provided

    Tim was playing.

    @muyjingo said:

    My complaint is still valid, which is that her competency was fast tracked at the expense of other characters. It's something Snyder is guilty of in everything he write - invoking the worf effect for any new character he introduces.

    It wasn't fast tracked at all.

    It took more than 3 real-time years and 50 some odd issues.

    Tim, for example in contrast, was introduced in August of '89, and was Robin by December of '89.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jaken7 said:

    Mmm-hmm.

    Lol, why the snarkiness?

    No, but most superheroes are able to do what they do based on formal and informal training.

    I'm not disputing that, but it has nothing to do with the point I made.

    Issue 12 is where she hacks Tim's network and finds out where he is. 13 is where she breaks into Tim's HQ and then stows away on his plane. She's been competent for quite awhile, obviously.

    She was competent at tech stuff for even longer than that, which I was never disputing.

    It's her combat competency which seems to have skyrocketed in short order, which is what I had a problem with.

    It doesn't jump as nearly as abruptly as you seem to think, which looks to be the main problem here.

    Well, it does. Tech proficiency aside, she goes from being heavily armed and dealing with bullies, to putting on a mask and rolling with Batman.

    Really, her training in terms of panel coverage is comparable to Batman's own (something that has been historically saved for after-the-fact back-ups and one-shots or annuals). And he's a character that's been around for 70+ years longer than Harper.

    That's absolute nonsense. We have numerous storylines and issues entirely devoted to Bruce's training. We have a panel saying Tim started training her in Tokyo. Even at that point, before her training is completed, she can manhandle Tim effortlessly. Also nonsense.

    Any reason you need to split up your replies between posts?

    @jaken7 said:

    She didn't.

    No, she did. That Tim was able to get the upperhand doesn't change that.

    It wasn't fast tracked at all.

    It was, you're just assuming she had a whole lot of training, which isn't substantiated on panel.

    It took 3 real-time years and 50 some odd issues.

    Bull. She wasn't being trained that entire time.

    Tim, for example in contrast, was introduced in August of '89, and was Robin by December of '89.

    That's still bad, but a) comics were not as serious back then and b) he was continuing to be trained while working alongside Batman. He wasn't able to just magically deal with threats an order of magnitude more difficult then he was dealing with in the previous issue.

    I'm away for work this week but when I return, I will go through my issues and provide scans to support what I am saying.

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    JakeN7

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    #39  Edited By JakeN7

    @muyjingo said:

    @jaken7 said:

    Mmm-hmm.

    Lol, why the snarkiness?

    Why that perception of my attitude?

    @muyjingo said:

    No, but most superheroes are able to do what they do based on formal and informal training.

    I'm not disputing that, but it has nothing to do with the point I made.

    Your point of Harper being too competent too fast? Pretty sure the fact that she developed in ways besides formal training is completely relevant, actually.

    @muyjingo said:

    Issue 12 is where she hacks Tim's network and finds out where he is. 13 is where she breaks into Tim's HQ and then stows away on his plane. She's been competent for quite awhile, obviously.

    She was competent at tech stuff for even longer than that, which I was never disputing.

    It's her combat competency which seems to have skyrocketed in short order, which is what I had a problem with.

    It wasn't a short order. And for someone who seems to be a fan of Bat characters, you should know tech and combat go hand-in-hand.

    Batman Eternal #16
    Batman Eternal #16

    Batman Eternal #16 (cont.)
    Batman Eternal #16 (cont.)

    This is Harper, untrained by any formal master (and therefore underestimated), able to handle herself. This is also after her first try at vigilantism over in Detective Comics. She has a natural tactical mind for combat, and it was actually incredibly well developed over the course of this series.

    @muyjingo said:

    It doesn't jump as nearly as abruptly as you seem to think, which looks to be the main problem here.

    Well, it does. Tech proficiency aside, she goes from being heavily armed and dealing with bullies, to putting on a mask and rolling with Batman.

    Only ten issues ago! Why aren't you making that connection? Starting her training around issue #17 to her debuting as Bluebird alongside Batman in #42 is not an abrupt jump. Saying she goes from dealing with bullies to donning a mask is a gross oversimplification, and skips a ton of development in between.

    Like when she was about to start her training, and impressed one of Batman's own mentors with her proficiency in dealing with threats.

    Batman Eternal #17
    Batman Eternal #17
    Batman Eternal #17 (cont.)
    Batman Eternal #17 (cont.)
    @muyjingo said:

    Really, her training in terms of panel coverage is comparable to Batman's own (something that has been historically saved for after-the-fact back-ups and one-shots or annuals). And he's a character that's been around for 70+ years longer than Harper.

    That's absolute nonsense. We have numerous storylines and issues entirely devoted to Bruce's training. We have a panel saying Tim started training her in Tokyo. Even at that point, before her training is completed, she can manhandle Tim effortlessly. Also nonsense.

    So, what is your complaint? First it was that she was able to do what she could do without training. Now that I've proven she's had training, and you're still complaining about what she was able to do.

    And she did not manhandle Tim. He was clearly playing around. It's delusional to think otherwise. And even if he wasn't, A) Tim is the least proficient in combat out of all the Robins B) She used the element of surprise C) She was well into her training, with Tim even telling her she's graduated from using tasers and D) She failed to assess the situation, know her combatant (despite him training her), and got completely incapacitated within seconds.

    @muyjingo said:

    Any reason you need to split up your replies between posts?

    Because you edited in your later points after I had started to reply.

    @muyjingo said:

    @jaken7 said:

    She didn't.

    No, she did. That Tim was able to get the upperhand doesn't change that.

    Already addressed this.

    @muyjingo said:

    It wasn't fast tracked at all.

    It was, you're just assuming she had a whole lot of training, which isn't substantiated on panel.

    Oh. So we go from asking for even an implication through dialogue that she was trained, to in-panel examples of her actually being trained? My, that's a convenient change in standards for you. Not to mention her work with Alexandrov seems to be a pretty strong implication of her starting her training. As does everything she was able to accomplish once she finally did become Bluebird (which seemed to be the main bulk of Jayc's argument).

    @muyjingo said:

    It took 3 real-time years and 50 some odd issues.

    Bull. She wasn't being trained that entire time.

    Yeah, interesting how I never even implied that she was. I was clearly referring to the chronological passage of time.

    @muyjingo said:

    Tim, for example in contrast, was introduced in August of '89, and was Robin by December of '89.

    That's still bad, but a) comics were not as serious back then

    This is post TDKR, Year One, and Watchmen. This point doesn't have a leg to stand on.

    @muyjingo said:

    b) he was continuing to be trained while working alongside Batman.

    Harper wasn't? You think because she's got a mask and a codename that she's just stopped the need and/or want to learn and train?

    @muyjingo said:

    He wasn't able to just magically deal with threats an order of magnitude more difficult then he was dealing with in the previous issue.

    Are you kidding? Tim stole a Robin costume at 13 and saved both Bruce and Dick from Two-Face. The only thing he'd done prior to that was help Dick out on solving a Haly's Circus case. He had no formal or informal training, and had only been shadowing Batman and Nightwing (kind of like what Harper did with New 52 Batman).

    @muyjingo said:

    I'm away for work this week but when I return, I will go through my issues and provide scans to support what I am saying.

    Look forward to it.

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    TheIndecider

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    @dannymalt: Not to mention:

    • The forces of Atlantis flooding Gotham with a tidal wave (Justice League/Aquaman)
    • The Arkham War that immediately followed the Crime Syndicate taking over the world (Forever Evil/Arkham War)
    • Leviathan attacking Gotham (Batman Inc)
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    JakeN7

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    @dannymalt: Not to mention:

    • The forces of Atlantis flooding Gotham with a tidal wave (Justice League/Aquaman)
    • The Arkham War that immediately followed the Crime Syndicate taking over the world (Forever Evil/Arkham War)
    • Leviathan attacking Gotham (Batman Inc)

    I forgot those first two as well!

    I wonder if No Man's Land or any form of it is still considered canon...

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    MuyJingo

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    #42  Edited By MuyJingo
    @jaken7 said:

    Why that perception of my attitude?

    It's hard for me to see how a reply of 'mm-hmmm' isn't snarky. I may have misinterpreted your attitude, and if I did I apologize.

    Your point of Harper being too competent too fast? Pretty sure the fact that she developed in ways besides formal training is completely relevant, actually.

    My point was that she became combat proficient too fast. You then pointed out her character development, which I acknowledge but pointed out isn't relevant to her training. You replied saying superheros do what they do based on informal and formal training.

    Are you trying to say her character development is somehow evidence of her receiving informal training? Because I don't see the connection.

    It wasn't a short order. And for someone who seems to be a fan of Bat characters, you should know tech and combat go hand-in-hand.

    Sure, but they a re not the same thing. Her being good with tech doesn't automatically translate to her being good in combat. Or, at least, it shouldn't.

    This is Harper, completely untrained (and therefore underestimated), able to handle herself. This is also after her first try at vigilantism over in Detective Comics. She has a natural tactical mind for combat, and it was actually incredibly well developed over the course of this series.

    All this shows is her tech proficiency. Again, I'm not disputing and have never disputed that.

    My point was that her combat proficiency skyrocketed over a few issues. You can shows all the scans of her using technology to get out of situations or fight crime that way, but it doesn't do anything to justify her combat proficiency skyrocketing as it did.

    Only ten issues ago! Why aren't you making that connection? Starting her training around issue #17 to her debuting as Bluebird alongside Batman in #42 is not an abrupt jump. Saying she goes from dealing with bullies to donning a mask is a gross oversimplification, and skips a ton of development in between.

    I'm not skipping anything. Yes, Tim says he started training her in Tokyo. Cool.

    Look at how she behaves in combat though, when fighting alongside them. I'm going from memory so can't name issues, but look at when she was fighting the hatter controlled people to her proficiency in the last few issues. I see it as a large jump in ability.

    Also, how the hell did anyone in the bat-family have time to really train her with all the insane stuff going on? That's a rhetorical question and not a point I'm making, but thought it worth noting.

    Like when she was about to start her training, and impressed one of Batman's own mentors with her proficiency in dealing with threats.

    That's a bit of a stretch. She tazed his monkey and he said she likes the way she operates, which I took as meaning her attitude. Somehow, I don't see tazing a monkey as being that impressive or indicative of being able to deal with threats.

    *shrug*

    So, what is your complaint? First it was that she was able to do what she could do without training. Now that I've proven she's had training, and you're still complaining about what she was able to do.

    Well, I feel I stated it clearly it above...

    The little training she had was insufficient to justify her leap in combat ability over the last few issues. I'll have to wait till I'm home to be able to cite issue numbers and provide scans to illustrate my point.

    And she did not manhandle Tim. He was clearly playing around. It's delusional to think otherwise.

    No, it's not delusional. It's an assumption on your part.

    What I see is, Tim went to grab her tazer, and got his ass handed to him. He was then impressed and decided to one up her with a gadget, playfully sure, but he still got put on his ass.

    And even if he wasn't, A) Tim is the least proficient in combat out of all the Robins

    Marginally, and he is still far above Harper. Or should be.

    B) She used the element of surprise

    Which shouldn't have worked so easily on Tim or any Robin.

    C) She was well into her training, with Tim even telling her she's graduated from using tasers and

    Ahh yes. This training. Which all stems from Tim saying he started training her in Tokyo.

    Am I wrong in saying that first scan you posted in the only instance of her training being addressed?

    I can acknowledge Tim training her, but it just seems a stretch to me that not only did he have the time to do so, but was able to completely train her to that level in such a short time.

    The again, this is comics, and that is one of the least silly things...so I shouldn't be reading so much into it.

    Oh. So we go from asking for even an implication through dialogue that she was trained, to in-panel examples of her actually being trained? My, that's a convenient change in standards for you. Not to mention her work with Alexandrov seems to be a pretty strong implication of her starting her training. As does everything she was able to accomplish once she finally did become Bluebird (which seemed to be the main bulk of Jayc's argument).

    Woah woah woah. I'm sorry, where are these in panel examples of her actually being trained? Unless you have a really loose deifnition of training, I have no idea what you are referring to.

    And no, I haven't changed my standards. When this discussion started, I asked for proof that she had been trained. You provided a scan showing Tim mentioned he started training her.

    You then seem to be assuming several instances of her training, such as the panels with Alexandrov. I don't see that as her being trained at all, and I'm unclear of why you do.

    Yeah, interesting how I never even implied that she was. I was clearly referring to the chronological passage of time.

    Um.

    You said it took 3 real time years and 50 some issues for her to be trained. How are you not implying that that is how long it took to train her?

    This is post TDKR, Year One, and Watchmen. This point doesn't have a leg to stand on.

    It stands on two legs actually, just fine.

    Yes, those comics were serious. They were not as serious as comics are today.

    That time marked the point where comics became serious, however they continued to increase in seriousness.

    I'm referring mainly to how important continuity started to become, and how the characters started to become more realistic. Comics at the time still had a *lot* of silliness that didn't really get phased out until much later.

    Harper wasn't? You think because she's got a mask and a codename that she's just stopped the need and/or want to learn and train?

    Well, this is back to speculation, reasonable though it may be.

    Most of what we saw on panel was her just accompanying someone else and joining them in combat. No evidence of training at play, and IIRC there was ample exposition relating to Batman training Tim.

    Are you kidding? Tim stole a Robin costume at 13 and saved both Bruce and Dick from Two-Face. The only thing he'd done prior to that was help Dick out on solving a Haly's Circus case. He had no formal or informal training, and had only been shadowing Batman and Nightwing (kind of like what Harper did with New 52 Batman).

    You really think what Harper was facing with apparent ease in the later issues of Eternal compares to Tim defeating two face?

    Look forward to it.

    Glad to hear it. For what it's worth, I concede my point. At least temporarily. You argued your case well. I disagree with some of your interpretations and more minor points, but in the bigger picture you've certainly made a convincing argument. Thank you for doing so.

    I don't like how far I feel she was fast tracked with her training being implied or having to be assumed, but soley due to the first scan you posted can acknowledge she was being trained.

    When I'm home I need to check as I feel that I can make a better case, but I'm limited at the moment. While I don't agree with all of your points or interpretations of events/panels I certainly acknowledge them as reasonable.

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    JakeN7

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    @muyjingo:

    Which instances of her combat display are you specifically referring to? Because I can't quite refute what you're saying unless I know what you're talking about, and I haven't witnessed really anything to write home about. Certainly not to the degree where it becomes too much of a leap in proficiency.

    Going to reply to all I can here, but I'm mainly going to focus on what you said that isn't just boiled down to a difference of opinion or perspective on our respective parts.

    Woah woah woah. I'm sorry, where are these in panel examples of her actually being trained? Unless you have a really loose deifnition of training, I have no idea what you are referring to.

    I didn't say anything of the sort. I was talking about your request for in-panel substantiation. Everything else I mentioned was based off of implication.

    You then seem to be assuming several instances of her training, such as the panels with Alexandrov. I don't see that as her being trained at all, and I'm unclear of why you do.

    Alexandrov was one of the men that trained Bruce. He was in Tokyo. He said he liked Harper. Tim mentioned her starting her training in Tokyo. These are the connections I'm making.

    Yes, those comics were serious. They were not as serious as comics are today.

    That time marked the point where comics became serious, however they continued to increase in seriousness.

    I'm referring mainly to how important continuity started to become, and how the characters started to become more realistic. Comics at the time still had a *lot* of silliness that didn't really get phased out until much later.

    No comics today are as serious as TDKR, Year One, or Watchmen.

    Ok?

    Are you claiming Batman comics in 1989-1990 didn't care about continuity? How do you explain the multiple Crises that had already occurred (the purpose of such events being to reboot the continuity)? And what does that have to do with Tim being able to do what he did with no training?

    You really think what Harper was facing with apparent ease in the later issues of Eternal compares to Tim defeating two face?

    Again, I'm going to need a specific instance you're referring to. But yeah, I think Tim saving Batman and Nightwing from one of Batman's most iconic foes at the tender of age of 13 without any training is much worse than Harper holding her own in combat after having already been trained. Not even sure how you could argue that.

    Glad to hear it. For what it's worth, I concede my point. At least temporarily. You argued your case well. I disagree with some of your interpretations and more minor points, but in the bigger picture you've certainly made a convincing argument. Thank you for doing so.

    No problem. Glad we could keep it copacetic.

    I don't like how far I feel she was fast tracked with her training being implied or having to be assumed, but soley due to the first scan you posted can acknowledge she was being trained.

    I get that. I do. But with how many plot threads were going on in Eternal, it really would've bogged down the book to dedicate page space to Tim training Harper. It was much simpler to show her having some basics down, then having a time-skip where it's mentioned that she's in training. We really don't have much else for most characters in any case.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jaken7: Just letting you know I'm going to take a few days to get back to you as I want to check the issues before doing so.

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    JakeN7

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    @muyjingo said:

    @jaken7: Just letting you know I'm going to take a few days to get back to you as I want to check the issues before doing so.

    No worries. While I do think it's a complete non-issue, it's sparked interesting conversation at the very least.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jaken7 said:

    @muyjingo said:

    @jaken7: Just letting you know I'm going to take a few days to get back to you as I want to check the issues before doing sI agree. Io.

    No worries. While I do think it's a complete non-issue, it's sparked interesting conversation at the very least.

    Agreed, I wasn't expecting a debate like this lol. But it's been interesting for sure.

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    superior_prime_maybe

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    Im actually kinda out grown the whole Gotham-Under-Attack-Batman-out-of-his-game routine. Zero Year, eternal, Batman Inc, now End Game....
    Feels like the same plot over and over.

    But Detective Comics has been pretty cool recently.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: I don't have a computer to post scans and I don't actually have the series on hand. But as you can see, I was not just spouting nonsense like you said.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @jaken7: scott Snyder said that he doesn't even know if no mans land is canon, but he likes to believe stories like that still happened in some shape or form. He likes to write as if all the older stories have happened still.

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    JakeN7

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    @jaken7 said:

    @theindecider said:

    @dannymalt: Not to mention:

    • The forces of Atlantis flooding Gotham with a tidal wave (Justice League/Aquaman)
    • The Arkham War that immediately followed the Crime Syndicate taking over the world (Forever Evil/Arkham War)
    • Leviathan attacking Gotham (Batman Inc)

    I forgot those first two as well!

    I wonder if No Man's Land or any form of it is still considered canon...

    Y'know, we also forgot about Anarky's most recent uprising over in Detective Comics.

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