Batman and Robin Eternal #13

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Posted by gmanfromheck (42524 posts) - - Show Bio

I've become really skeptical over weekly series. They can be a great way to tell a story but the downside is it's easy to fall behind and sometimes the story meanders. Thankfully that hasn't been the case with BATMAN AND ROBIN ETERNAL. This is a weekly series that has kept my attention and I make sure to never miss an issue.

As I read this issue, featuring a big focus on Cassandra Cain, I realized I'm not as upset as I thought I'd be over her past stories getting rewritten or set aside as part of the New 52 relaunch from 2011. It's likely I'm just being happy that we finally have Cassandra back in the DCU and, so far, she's been depicted pretty well. This series has been a great way to introduce her to new readers and for long time fans to get to know her all over again.

As James Tynion IV and Scott Snyder have Cassandra revisit the Nursery where she was raised, we see more of her upbringing with the Orphan. The mysterious character known as Mother had a weird and twisted scheme going with the way she trained children in her program but Cassandra was forced to remain separate from them. This gives us more insight into the cruel and brutal upbringing she had which makes readers sympathize with her even more. Along with the haunting memories of the place, she has to confront Orphan again and we also get to see her first encounter with another familiar character.

With a weekly series, we get a variety of different artists to handle the schedule. A pleasant surprise was when we found out Marcio Takara was drawing this issue. I've long been a fan of his work and love seeing the way he handles the story along with the flashbacks. Takara has often drawn Bat-characters including Cassandra and I would love to see him back on more issues of this series.

The flashbacks to Cassandra's youth look great and Dean White's colors keeps them separated from the present day moments. Unfortunately this is a moment where the weekly pace of the story falters a little. In some ways it feels like finding out all the details of past and Batman's connection to Mother are taking longer than they should. It's unfolding at a reasonable pace for readers but because we're getting an issue every week, it feels like it's becoming a longer story with some moments drawn out a little longer in order to help fill up the individual issue.

BATMAN AND ROBIN ETERNAL shows that a weekly series can be a success. James Tynion IV and Scott Snyder's story has been captivating as we get more and more revelations of the bigger story week after week. With an issue almost fully dedicated to Cassandra Cain, fans of the character can be overjoyed. The overall story has been great but there have been some moments the weekly schedule makes moments feel drawn out a little. Marcio Takara's art is perfect for a Cassandra-focused issue and Dean White's colors are top notch. We've now reached the half way point of the series and there's still a lot more for us to discover.

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#1 Posted by knightofthechronicle (1396 posts) - - Show Bio

Just finished reading it. Loved Takara's art style, especially when he was drawing Orphan

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#3 Edited by Bat_Girl_CC (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't agree more, this story so far, has proven to easly be the best stuff made since flashpoint, the only people complaining really are Dick Grayson fans, who are mad that their favourite character gets the spot-light steal from him by more interesting characters than he is (Cass for exemple) one character can't be blamed for being more cooler than other, and Grayson's fans should be happy that Azrael, Cass Cain, David Cain, The Mother, etc, are in this, otherwise more than likely it would be a sucky and boring story.

I mean, this is a Dick Grayson centric story, and it has been from the start, the writters were never afraid to both say it on the interviews, and show it, eg (Grayson being front and center on the majority of all issues and flashbacks so far, Batman having Cass looking for Grayson to give him a usb device, Cass needing saving from Grayson three times in this series already issue 3/ issue 8 and now issue13, The Mother letting Grayson walk away from a conversation between them when it was already known that she was trying to take care of loose ends, etc) and even so, even freackin Harper Row manages to steal the spot-light away from him, lol, Cass is a given, but Harper? on a Dick Grayson centric story? lol, that's saying something.

I honestly think that they should stop criticizing, and just enjoy a good series like this one keeps proving to be, either way its their problem to solve, if they drop it, its their loss.

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#4 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42865 posts) - - Show Bio

Yet another issue with no Jason or Tim.....WTF.

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#5 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't agree more, this story so far, has proven to easly be the best stuff made since flashpoint, the only people complaining really are Dick Grayson fans, who are mad that their favourite character gets the spot-light steal from him by more interesting characters than he is (Cass for exemple) one character can't be blamed for being more cooler than other, and Grayson's fans should be happy that Azrael, Cass Cain, David Cain, The Mother, etc, are in this, otherwise more than likely it would be a sucky and boring story.

Also they have better things to do... like reading Grayson.

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#6 Edited by Godlike13 (4 posts) - - Show Bio

They can't steal spotlight he never actually had. It was always theirs to begin with. This isn't a Dick Grayson or Robin centric story. He's just in it to help sell less interesting characters who couldn't maintain an audience though the years and a new character who doesn't have one yet. Dick is just a viewpoint general readers will accept, someone people generally know about going in, and adds a sense of "history" to their "Batman and Robin" story thats not actually centered around Robin or Batman. Harper and Cass are the ones they are actually trying to build, or with Cass rebuild, an audience with. Not Dick. Dick already has one. Not to mention other books where he's also featured. Kind of sucks for people who are here for Dick or a Batman and Robin story, but it is what it is. At least Dick fans at least have other options.

It'd be nice if they didn't sell it as Dick Grayson or Robin story, or an anniversary celebration, but 13 issues in its pretty clear what it is. Like it or hate it, it is what it is.

Dick will be fine, Dick fans at least have other options. Grayson continues to be some of the actual best stuff made since flashpoint, and he's interesting and popular enough that he'll always have a place. Not sure what Cass is gonna do after this. Hopefully they'll find something for her to do and she doesn't turn out like Steph. Who was reintroduced only to fall back into irrelevancy after the first Eternal was over. Harper will probably continued to be featured in the next weekly.

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#7 Posted by Squalleon (9994 posts) - - Show Bio

@bat_girl_cc said:

Couldn't agree more, this story so far, has proven to easly be the best stuff made since flashpoint, the only people complaining really are Dick Grayson fans, who are mad that their favourite character gets the spot-light steal from him by more interesting characters than he is (Cass for exemple) one character can't be blamed for being more cooler than other, and Grayson's fans should be happy that Azrael, Cass Cain, David Cain, The Mother, etc, are in this, otherwise more than likely it would be a sucky and boring story.

Also they have better things to do... like reading Grayson.

That burn! Savage.

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#8 Posted by MattyDaveHalPeo (665 posts) - - Show Bio

@bat_girl_cc: Which Azrael is it? Jean-Paul Valley or the new, boring guy?

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#9 Edited by entropy_aegis (20731 posts) - - Show Bio

So Harper and Cain Eternal #13 wasn't half bad. But when I read Batman and Robin Eternal I kinda expect it to be about Batman and Robin(ANY Robin,ANY Batman even). But here Dick is being used because Batman's lame status quo prevents him from being used(I like how how everyone's pretending he's dead when he really isn't,classic Snyder). Damian has still to show up, Tim and Jason have been given a filler side plot and they too have disappeared for weeks. No Batman,no current Robin,2 ex Robins cast aside and one of them used as a prop. Nice way of diluting the name DC.

Snyder,James for the last time F*CK Harper Row. I hope someone else takes a crack at the Eternal line,right now it's just reeks of Snyder consolidation instead of an actual celebration of Batman. Lincoln March and Harper aint celebrating the best Batman has to offer NOT EVEN CLOSE.

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#10 Posted by lanhdongls (18 posts) - - Show Bio

Justice league #47 got 5 stars but this issue with so much emotion only got 4 stars.Weird.

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#11 Edited by Bat_Girl_CC (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon said:
@outside_85 said:
@bat_girl_cc said:

Couldn't agree more, this story so far, has proven to easly be the best stuff made since flashpoint, the only people complaining really are Dick Grayson fans, who are mad that their favourite character gets the spot-light steal from him by more interesting characters than he is (Cass for exemple) one character can't be blamed for being more cooler than other, and Grayson's fans should be happy that Azrael, Cass Cain, David Cain, The Mother, etc, are in this, otherwise more than likely it would be a sucky and boring story.

Also they have better things to do... like reading Grayson.

That burn! Savage.

Sure, the series where Grayson gets to defeat a being that a had the Justice League powers and abillities, and punching down Midnighter with one arm while holding a child on his arm...if Dick was doing that kind of ridiculous stuff on this series then no-one would complain...too bad Tom King and his over the top biased view of Grayson aren't in this series, and here Grayson gets a actual acurate portrayal of his character.

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#12 Edited by Bat_Girl_CC (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

@godlike13 said:

They can't steal spotlight he never actually had. It was always theirs to begin with. This isn't a Dick Grayson or Robin centric story. He's just in it to help sell less interesting characters who couldn't maintain an audience though the years and a new character who doesn't have one yet. Dick is just a viewpoint general readers will accept, someone people generally know about going in, and adds a sense of "history" to their "Batman and Robin" story thats not actually centered around Robin or Batman. Harper and Cass are the ones they are actually trying to build, or with Cass rebuild, an audience with. Not Dick. Dick already has one. Not to mention other books where he's also featured. Kind of sucks for people who are here for Dick or a Batman and Robin story, but it is what it is. At least Dick fans at least have other options.

It'd be nice if they didn't sell it as Dick Grayson or Robin story, or an anniversary celebration, but 13 issues in its pretty clear what it is. Like it or hate it, it is what it is.

Dick will be fine, Dick fans at least have other options. Grayson continues to be some of the actual best stuff made since flashpoint, and he's interesting and popular enough that he'll always have a place. Not sure what Cass is gonna do after this. Hopefully they'll find something for her to do and she doesn't turn out like Steph. Who was reintroduced only to fall back into irrelevancy after the first Eternal was over. Harper will probably continued to be featured in the next weekly.

Oh, please...the whole thing is about Dick Grayson!...the large majority of the flashbacks, Batman, The Mother, Cass Cain re-introduction who had Batman telling her to search for Grayson to give him a usb device in te first place...literally, the only thing that is about Cass and not about Dick, its her own father, David Cain, who's part of Cassandra's reintroduction into DC...don't blame other characters for standing out more than the ones you prefer...and its kinda of embarrassing really, i mean Cass its okay she's just that awesome, but Harper? lol.

And lets not pretend that Cassandra's problems are a matter of popularity...she has a huge fanbase although not nearly as big as it was (thanks to DC)...her problem are and always were due to some higher-ups in DC Editorial not liking her (that much its public knowledge) but hopefully things are changing, the Batman franshise never had as much power as it has now, with people like Mark Doyle, Scott Snyder, Gail Simone and James Tynion IV calling the shots now, there were rumours that Snyder said that he would leave DC if the new Bat-group editor wasn't Mark Doyle and DC gave him Mark Doyle, he said that there would be a new Eternal, and there was a new Eternal, Batman has the power now in amoung Editorial, and all people that i just named are assumed Cass fans and grew up reading the character, so for the first time ever, i'd say that the future is looking bright for her, but thanks for your concern, apreciated.

As for Harper, even tho i'm not exactly found of her yet, i can't deny that she's slowly gathering he rown fanbase, special in tumbrl, and she was made by Snyder himslef, so as long as Snyder and Doyle stay in Batman, the future looks bright for her as well.

@mattydavehalpeo: It's JPV

@entropy_aegis: @allstarsuperman: Jason and Tim will have another issue entirely dedicated to them in B&RE 15 and possibly 16 as well, following the plot of issues 9 and 10.

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#13 Edited by entropy_aegis (20731 posts) - - Show Bio

@bat_girl_cc: Mark Doyle just joined little over a year ago,I dont think Snyder would ever say that,sounds foolish imo.

Though this story isn't about Grayson,not really. Mother isn't his villain,nor is Orphan,these guys are far more closer to Harper,Cass and as of now JPV. An example of stealing the spot light would be Bane taking it away from Jason and Tim,they were all written well(best Tim in years) but Bane just swept past them. However we haven't been given one good reason what makes Grayson so cool,if anything we get the opposite in flashbacks. Grayson fans may exaggerate his ability but here he's just a prop because they couldn't use Batman,so far it's been delving in to Cass' past and non sensical Harper Row wanking. If they were sincere they could have tied Cass and Dick as knowing each other for years and given them some connection,a relationship which contrasted their style,talents and personality both in present time and in flashbacks but they didn't,yet they are doing the same for Batman and Cass as was made evident by this issue even though he isn't in it . Dick just tags along,he has no real stake in this plot,he just wants to know if Batman made a deal with Mother or not,THAT'S LITERALLY HIS ONLY MOTIVATION and as usual Snyder and Tynion will fill the page with meaningless dialogue but a simple yes or no is too much for them.

These Eternal books are terribly managed,us even having this conversation is proof of that. B&R is considerably better than Batman Eternal but as a whole this line is just poor. I'm still trying to wrap my head around Cluemaster,Hush and Lincoln March being the villains of a comic that celebrates Batman,more like celebration of their own egos and favourite era maybe. If they wanted to avoid Joker and Ra's they could have gone with Hugo Strange,the actual Owlman etc.

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#14 Posted by Bat_Girl_CC (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

@bat_girl_cc: Mark Doyle just joined little over a year ago,I dont think Snyder would ever say that,sounds foolish imo.

Both Snyder and Tynion and Doyle have said that they love Cass and some of them said that they have grew up reading her, can search for links if you want.

Though this story isn't about Grayson,not really. Mother isn't his villain,nor is Orphan,these guys are far more closer to Harper,Cass and as of now JPV.

Not true, the main plot its about The Mother, Batman and Dick Grayson, the big mistery basically its if Batman bought a Robin from The mother or not, and was he or not Dick Grayson.

The only thing that its about Cass rather than about Grayson its her own father David Cain, and both her and The Orphan are a side-plot imo, it was already shown The Mother herself in the past saying that she didn't knew that David had "made" Cass, and that she didn't approved it, she has no interest in Cass whatsoever, and according to last issue she has no interest in David as well, even tho he has played a important role as her associate, in the great scheme of things he's nothing more that a mean to a end for Mother.

In fact, the only confiremd relevancy to the main plot that Cass has had so far, is Batman meeting her in the past and giving her a usb device so that she could give it to Grayson, this story it's so about Grayson that isn't even funny.

The only issues that we can say that were truly about Cass were issues 11 and 13.

Cass just hapens to stand out more, because she's more awesome.

An example of stealing the spot light would be Bane taking it away from Jason and Tim,they were all written well(best Tim in years) but Bane just swept past them. However we haven't been given one good reason what makes Grayson so cool,if anything we get the opposite in flashbacks.

I might be wrong, but it seems that at this point, the goal is to make people doubt about Grayson, so that in the end he proves his worth.

Besides, what would be the point of making Grayson the lead character in this Eternal, to make him look bad?

Grayson fans may exaggerate his ability but here he's just a prop because they couldn't use Batman,so far it's been delving in to Cass' past and non sensical Harper Row wanking. They could have tied Cass and Dick as knowing each other for years and given them some connection,a relationship which contrasted their style,talents and personality both in present time and in flashbacks but they didn't.

That imo, should have been done already, on the Grayson series, and they had many ways of introducing Cass, the fist of cain, the school for young girl agents, etc.

Although Tom King would probably make a mockery out of Cassandra's skills so that Grayson could look better, so it was probably better this way.

Dick just tags along,he has no real stake in this plot,he just wants to know if Batman made a deal with Mother or not,THAT'S LITERALLY HIS ONLY MOTIVATION

Dick is pretty much leading the "mission" against The Mother.

Trying to find out about what happened in the past, its everyones motivation, Cass i think its redemption and apparently it has been, since Batman met her.

and as usual Snyder and Tynion will fill the page with meaningless dialogue but a simple yes or no is too much for them.

Agreed, but it think that they are doing it on purpose so that they don't reveal everything just yet, this is after all a weekly series.

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#15 Posted by RaunJisto (480 posts) - - Show Bio

I really liked this issue! I loved the moment Cassandra marked her eyes with the bat symbol. I hope she keeps being used after this series ends.

Also, I am getting kinda tired of Harper at this point. I just don't care very much about it. I do care about Stephanie Brown but she hasn't showed up in more than a few issues already.

Now that I think about it, I'm surprised Harper isn't involved in the Robin War event since a large part of it is about dealing with untrained vigilantes and Harper still isn't all too trained.

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#16 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon said:
@outside_85 said:
@bat_girl_cc said:

Couldn't agree more, this story so far, has proven to easly be the best stuff made since flashpoint, the only people complaining really are Dick Grayson fans, who are mad that their favourite character gets the spot-light steal from him by more interesting characters than he is (Cass for exemple) one character can't be blamed for being more cooler than other, and Grayson's fans should be happy that Azrael, Cass Cain, David Cain, The Mother, etc, are in this, otherwise more than likely it would be a sucky and boring story.

Also they have better things to do... like reading Grayson.

That burn! Savage.

Sure, the series where Grayson gets to defeat a being that a had the Justice League powers and abillities, and punching down Midnighter with one arm while holding a child on his arm...if Dick was doing that kind of ridiculous stuff on this series then no-one would complain...too bad Tom King and his over the top biased view of Grayson aren't in this series, and here Grayson gets a actual acurate portrayal of his character.

Too bad Grayson is currently the only one of these characters that can hold a solo.

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#17 Posted by Bat_Girl_CC (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

I really liked this issue! I loved the moment Cassandra marked her eyes with the bat symbol. I hope she keeps being used after this series ends.

Also, I am getting kinda tired of Harper at this point. I just don't care very much about it. I do care about Stephanie Brown but she hasn't showed up in more than a few issues already.

Now that I think about it, I'm surprised Harper isn't involved in the Robin War event since a large part of it is about dealing with untrained vigilantes and Harper still isn't all too trained.

Glad more people noticed it, just like in old continuity where Bruce asked Cass who she's loyal to, and she pointed to the bat-simbol. One of the most interesting things about Cass regarding her afiliation to the Bta-family, is that while the others are people that met Bruce or are connected to him in some way, and some of them aren't even very found of his ways, Cass is more dedicated to the bat-simbol, just as much as Bruce is, they had different motives to get to the point where they are but their goal are ultimately the same, Cass doesn't have to be Bruce's relative or best friend, she's a agent of the bat

Although i can't deny that i appreciatted Bruce adopting her in the pre-flashpoint continuity, and i hope he does the same this time around.

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#18 Posted by Bat_Girl_CC (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

@bat_girl_cc said:
@squalleon said:
@outside_85 said:
@bat_girl_cc said:

Couldn't agree more, this story so far, has proven to easly be the best stuff made since flashpoint, the only people complaining really are Dick Grayson fans, who are mad that their favourite character gets the spot-light steal from him by more interesting characters than he is (Cass for exemple) one character can't be blamed for being more cooler than other, and Grayson's fans should be happy that Azrael, Cass Cain, David Cain, The Mother, etc, are in this, otherwise more than likely it would be a sucky and boring story.

Also they have better things to do... like reading Grayson.

That burn! Savage.

Sure, the series where Grayson gets to defeat a being that a had the Justice League powers and abillities, and punching down Midnighter with one arm while holding a child on his arm...if Dick was doing that kind of ridiculous stuff on this series then no-one would complain...too bad Tom King and his over the top biased view of Grayson aren't in this series, and here Grayson gets a actual acurate portrayal of his character.

Too bad Grayson is currently the only one of these characters that can hold a solo.

More than likely yes and we all need to thanks DC for screwing their character over and over until people leave the ship, although he isn't doing a very good job at it since his title is only on its 15th issue and its already selling below 30K. Not bad though.

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#19 Posted by entropy_aegis (20731 posts) - - Show Bio

@bat_girl_cc: I was referring to the part about Snyder leaving if and when Doyle leaves,that sounds a bit far fetched to me.

Grayson obviously had nothing to do with Mother,that has been proven without any doubt,she's the boss of Cassandra's father and creator of JPV and may have something to do with Harper. Also Cass' plot is hardly a side story(looking at Jason and Tim),it's the main plot or at least the heart of the main plot. Dick contributed zilch to what transpired years ago,those flashbacks continue to make him look bad both in terms of ability and due to his ignorance of everything that was happening(which in turn makes him irrelevant as we know he did nothing then). Whether Mother showed any interest in Cass doesn't really matter nor does her opinion of David being nothing more than a pawn. She raised David,made him do her dirty laundry and he in turn created Cass as tribute to Mother.She's more connected to Cass and JPV than Dick or any other person save maybe Batman.

The question is why does Grayson have to prove his worth? why do we have to doubt Grayson?(or he himself?) that's a legit question on my part. Why shouldn't we doubt Harper frelling Row for once? or Jason as such a story lends perfectly well to his character,or even Cass as she has a murky past too,it's something that could work with Damian and Steph as well. Questions of doubt,worth etc dont lend well to a character like Grayson,it's the same thing as Superman. I'm not a Grayson fanboy but when you have everyone praising Harper and doubting Dick then I think his fans have a right to have their jimmies rustled.

I think Grayson is the lead character because they cant use Batman and he's the next best thing,he's a prop to sell the others. He's there for the same reason Batman is a part of Johns JL. The mystery thing is also stupid,Batman left him a USB with ZERO information(what's the point?). If I was the editor I'd have told the writers to at least learn how to construct a mystery before writing it,the mystery is just something Snyder and co came up with in 5 minutes when they brainstormed over what they had to insert in Batman's history(and that's pretty much the only thing they brainstorm about) and knowing the head writers it will be incredibly vague to have any consequences or so stupid no one will give a damn. Lincoln March,DOTF etc come to mind.

As a Batman fan first and foremost I dont like it myself,he not part of the story in the present and the flashbacks keep telling me he killed people and worked for an evil crone, it's something that pisses me off more than anything else,really who are they marketing it to? both Batman and Robin have sucked so far. They just dropped the ball big time with this one,it might be a good Cass story but if everyone else gets crapped on in the process,especially the titular characters then I think people have grounds to call this dismal.

I really liked this issue! I loved the moment Cassandra marked her eyes with the bat symbol. I hope she keeps being used after this series ends.

Also, I am getting kinda tired of Harper at this point. I just don't care very much about it. I do care about Stephanie Brown but she hasn't showed up in more than a few issues already.

Now that I think about it, I'm surprised Harper isn't involved in the Robin War event since a large part of it is about dealing with untrained vigilantes and Harper still isn't all too trained.

Robin War has her spiritual twin Duke,these so called celebrations are actually Snyder consolidations.

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#20 Posted by Bat_Girl_CC (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

@bat_girl_cc: I was referring to the part about Snyder leaving if and when Doyle leaves,that sounds a bit far fetched to me.

Hey, it was a rumour, that if i'm not mistaken was brought up by bleeding cool, and those guys have sources and they are rarely wrong.

Grayson obviously had nothing to do with Mother,that has been proven without any doubt,

Hum, we still don't know that yet, the flasbacks seem to indicate otherwise.

she's the boss of Cassandra's father and creator of JPV and may have something to do with Harper. Also Cass' plot is hardly a side story(looking at Jason and Tim),it's the main plot or at least the heart of the main plot.

Based on what? she having a good amount of panel time? Harper has had just as much if not more, Dick has had more, etc. The Mother is IMO the main antagonist of this story, and Cass is for her, like the aliens are for the pope...Dick Grayson is the main hero, and Cass gets to be here because Batman met her somehow, and she had a mission which consisted in finding Grayson and giving him the usb, she's not more than a messenger in this story really, her back story and David's have next to 0 correlation to the main mistery, i wouldn't go as far as to call them filler, but in fact when we look at the main plot what does it matter Cass and David's story? unless you want to say that they are showing how badass The Mother is by having a badass associate in Cain, and if this wasn't a fan-favourite returning i bet that we wouldn't even had those 2 issues (11 and 13) dedicated to her. Her other appearences are she joining the bat-crew and building some relationships possilby for future story-lines, Jason, Tim, Bane and JPV are also side-stories, the main plot is IMO about Batman The Mother and Dick Grayson, Harper is just there, although she may turn out to be Mother's children in the bat-fam.

Dick contributed zilch to what transpired years ago,those flashbacks continue to make him look bad both in terms of ability and due to his ignorance of everything that was happening(which in turn makes him irrelevant as we know he did nothing then). Whether Mother showed any interest in Cass doesn't really matter nor does her opinion of David being nothing more than a pawn. She raised David,made him do her dirty laundry and he in turn created Cass as tribute to Mother.She's more connected to Cass and JPV than Dick or any other person save maybe Batman.

How? Dick is the center of the mistery, Mothers connection to Cass its casual, at best, which its a shame, because in the previous continuity she had a pretty big role planned for her, in being Ra's personal body-guard, and as stated by some members of the LOA she was destined to become the future leader...and now, even tho she's still badass and with a very cool origin, her upbringing had no big purpose, she's just someone casually made a by a mastermind villain.

The question is why does Grayson have to prove his worth? why do we have to doubt Grayson?(or he himself?) that's a legit question on my part. Why shouldn't we doubt Harper frelling Row for once? or Jason as such a story lends perfectly well to his character,or even Cass as she has a murky past too,it's something that could work with Damian and Steph as well. Questions of doubt,worth etc dont lend well to a character like Grayson,it's the same thing as Superman. I'm not a Grayson fanboy but when you have everyone praising Harper and doubting Dick then I think his fans have a right to have their jimmies rustled.

Agreed, but Grayson's shining moment in this seires is coming, i have a a feeling.

I think Grayson is the lead character because they cant use Batman and he's the next best thing,he's a prop to sell the others. He's there for the same reason Batman is a part of Johns JL. The mystery thing is also stupid,Batman left him a USB with ZERO information(what's the point?). If I was the editor I'd have told the writers to at least learn how to construct a mystery before writing it,the mystery is just something Snyder and co came up with in 5 minutes when they brainstormed over what they had to insert in Batman's history(and that's pretty much the only thing they brainstorm about) and knowing the head writers it will be incredibly vague to have any consequences or so stupid no one will give a damn. Lincoln March,DOTF etc come to mind.

We will soon find out, but you do make some good points.

As a Batman fan first and foremost I dont like it myself,he not part of the story in the present and the flashbacks keep telling me he killed people and worked for an evil crone, it's something that pisses me off more than anything else,really who are they marketing it to? both Batman and Robin have sucked so far. They just dropped the ball big time with this one,it might be a good Cass story but if everyone else gets crapped on in the process,especially the titular characters then I think people have grounds to call this dismal.

At this point, the only character that has its image in danger its Batman, but we sill don't know for sure yet what happened.

@raunjisto said:

I really liked this issue! I loved the moment Cassandra marked her eyes with the bat symbol. I hope she keeps being used after this series ends.

Also, I am getting kinda tired of Harper at this point. I just don't care very much about it. I do care about Stephanie Brown but she hasn't showed up in more than a few issues already.

Now that I think about it, I'm surprised Harper isn't involved in the Robin War event since a large part of it is about dealing with untrained vigilantes and Harper still isn't all too trained.

Robin War has her spiritual twin Duke,these so called celebrations are actually Snyder consolidations.

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#21 Edited by Vitacura (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@bat_girl_cc said:
@outside_85 said:
@bat_girl_cc said:
@squalleon said:
@outside_85 said:
@bat_girl_cc said:

Couldn't agree more, this story so far, has proven to easly be the best stuff made since flashpoint, the only people complaining really are Dick Grayson fans, who are mad that their favourite character gets the spot-light steal from him by more interesting characters than he is (Cass for exemple) one character can't be blamed for being more cooler than other, and Grayson's fans should be happy that Azrael, Cass Cain, David Cain, The Mother, etc, are in this, otherwise more than likely it would be a sucky and boring story.

Also they have better things to do... like reading Grayson.

That burn! Savage.

Sure, the series where Grayson gets to defeat a being that a had the Justice League powers and abillities, and punching down Midnighter with one arm while holding a child on his arm...if Dick was doing that kind of ridiculous stuff on this series then no-one would complain...too bad Tom King and his over the top biased view of Grayson aren't in this series, and here Grayson gets a actual acurate portrayal of his character.

Too bad Grayson is currently the only one of these characters that can hold a solo.

More than likely yes and we all need to thanks DC for screwing their character over and over until people leave the ship, although he isn't doing a very good job at it since his title is only on its 15th issue and its already selling below 30K. Not bad though.

Pretty sure it still over 30K, barely but still. Anyway yes, that happens when DC screw a character over and over. This weekly is a clear example of how sabotage a character sales, thank you

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#22 Posted by RaunJisto (480 posts) - - Show Bio

@bat_girl_cc: I don't know all too much about Cassandra aside from what was re-introduced in this series and that she was also Batgirl and Batwing. She always seemed interesting though. This series is really doing a good job of making me like her. It's kinda funny. The one who speaks the least is my favorite and the one who speaks too much (Harper) is slowly becoming my least favorite.

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#23 Posted by entropy_aegis (20731 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by VickBat (202 posts) - - Show Bio

@raunjisto said:

@bat_girl_cc: (Harper) is slowly becoming my least favorite.

I feel the same..That was the first new member(not character pref-flashpoint, as Steph and Cass) in Batfamily? Because I still do not like.. DC should have done differently, I like it more Frankie appearing less, since she began working with Batgirl..

Hopefully the secret character of Batgirl 50(where is it harper, and Steph, who I do not see time in this comic ) will Cassandra in the same month ends this comic.

Without pre-flashpoint reader I report on the history of Cassandra(as steph in batman eternal) and I liked this character(is cute too) unlike Harper..

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#25 Edited by Zainu (216 posts) - - Show Bio

I know that I'm a sucker for this, but I lost it when Batman hugged Cassandra.

My badass baby girl needs more hugs and love!

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#26 Edited by Bat_Girl_CC (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

@raunjisto said:

@bat_girl_cc: I don't know all too much about Cassandra aside from what was re-introduced in this series and that she was also Batgirl and Batwing. She always seemed interesting though. This series is really doing a good job of making me like her. It's kinda funny. The one who speaks the least is my favorite and the one who speaks too much (Harper) is slowly becoming my least favorite.

Well, you can always read her pre-flashpoint issues like her Batgirl run if you want, but since you are new to the character this is a good time to start, this series mark the debut of Cass into this new continuity.

Cass was Batgirl and then Black Bat in the previous continuity.

And yes, Harper is annoying, but we will have to endure her until she gets to appear on a title (solo or team book), at which time i think she will stop appearing on events like Eternal.

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#27 Posted by Kid_jakeriv (410 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't say I'm much of a Harper fan, I do like Duke a lot though. I think if anybody were to become Robin after Damian, it's Duke. Duke has actually been earning his spot in the bat-family, so i hope he becomes a member soon. Also, i like the series so far, I feel like everyone is thinking too much into it. It's celebrating ROBIN not Dick Grayson. It's showing everyone that has every been Robin, or will every be Robin, and everyone that has had a sidekick role with Batman (Cass, Harper, Steph). So i get why Dick isn't the main focus. Also to people complaining that Batman killed someone, or made a deal with the Mother, chill out. Do you really think Batman did that? Just enjoy the story

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#28 Posted by Surza7 (353 posts) - - Show Bio

i'm still trying to figure why Harper is even in this story.She hasn't really done much for me in Batman and Robin Eternal aside from being Cassandras shoulder to lean on,but she hasn't done anything really of note that I can remember.I am enjoying this book a ton and it is one of my favorite comics to read every week,and just pulls me in even more with each issue.I really love how the story is playing up,and just seeing more of Jason Todd is always a plus for me!

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#29 Posted by entropy_aegis (20731 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't say I'm much of a Harper fan, I do like Duke a lot though. I think if anybody were to become Robin after Damian, it's Duke. Duke has actually been earning his spot in the bat-family, so i hope he becomes a member soon. Also, i like the series so far, I feel like everyone is thinking too much into it. It's celebrating ROBIN not Dick Grayson. It's showing everyone that has every been Robin, or will every be Robin, and everyone that has had a sidekick role with Batman (Cass, Harper, Steph). So i get why Dick isn't the main focus. Also to people complaining that Batman killed someone, or made a deal with the Mother, chill out. Do you really think Batman did that? Just enjoy the story

Yeah only the current Robin isn't even in this and Harper doesn't even count as anything sidekick or Robin and by that same logic why isn't Barbara here or Betty Kane? Steph just disappeared and Tim & Jason have been given a C plot that only Kelly and Lanzing (they write the same books jointly) are tackling while all the other writers on this book are writing Harper,Cass and Dick. It's clear this book is pushing Harper and Cass,it should have had the decency to actually make it clear.It doesn't make the story superior or inferior but it does mean many fans were roped in with misperceived assumptions which prevents them from enjoying the story.

As for Batman,I hate false drama and I hate how the chief writers can only think of "changing the past and everything you know of everything that happened" Can these guys just write something else for once? one trick ponies if I ever saw any.

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#30 Edited by Kid_jakeriv (410 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: Damian is supposed to appear in it later in the story. Anyways, I don't think this is false drama at all. Why can't they change the past a little bit? We're getting an interesting story, just because its been done doesn't mean it can't happen again. Also its not like thats all they write.

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#31 Posted by entropy_aegis (20731 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: Damian is supposed to appear in it later in the story. Anyways, I don't think this is false drama at all. Why can't they change the past a little bit? We're getting an interesting story, just because its been done doesn't mean it can't happen again. Also its not like thats all they write.

We're halfway though already,if he shows up it will likely be in the last 2 issues but really what's Harper doing in a Bat family comic and Robin celebration that's missing out Damian?

Redoing it again and again is annoying and tiresome,at a certain point it grates on my nerves because there is always the possibility of writer doing something incredibly stupid to show how different his story is and if he doesn't he's merely restating what I already know. It's a lose-lose situation normally.

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#32 Edited by Macnugetz (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra cut off Orphan's hand in issue #5. He isn't missing a hand in this issue. Did I miss an explanation of how he got his hand back?

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#33 Posted by ShadowJax (40 posts) - - Show Bio

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