Spider-Man's month-long celebration continues! This week, we placed one of his most brutal allies, Scarlet Spider, against one of his most savage villains, Lizard. A battle between these two is sure to be prolonged, vicious and full of injuries. The community has been speculating about this fight since Monday and they've overwhelmingly sided with one of these combatants. According to most Comic Viners, this is a fight that Kaine will eventually win.
Kaine received an impressive 72% of the votes. Lizard earned just 24% and 5% think this one is simply too close to call. While Lizard is an undeniably tough character to defeat, Kaine does bring a couple of advantages to the table that cannot be overlooked. First and foremost, has variety on his side. Not only does Scarlet Spider have his stingers for stabbing and slashing damage -- something that can definitely do major damage to Curt over time -- he also has organic webbing and, thanks to his costume, he can turn invisible. Webbing may not be able to restrain Lizard for too long, but even having an advantage for a moment or two could be critical. Secondly, Kaine's an anti-hero. He's trying to change his ways, but ultimately, he's willing to resort to more violent methods, if needed. Considering Lizard's ferocious ways and his accelerated healing factor, it's safe to say that Kaine will eventually realize he needs to make proper use of those stingers. He has the speed, strength and pain tolerance required to stay in this fight for a decent amount of time, too.
It does feel like the Lizard was sold short in the poll, though. It's understandable if you think Kaine could ultimately win, but there were more than a few "if Peter can win and he holds back, then so can Kaine" remarks and that seems like an oversimplification of this fight. Peter has admitted to not holding back at times against Connors and he was still unable to best Lizard with his punches. He often required a plot device -- many times relying on his intellect -- to defeat the villain. So this really isn't as simple as "if Peter beats Lizard, so does Kaine!" No matter who comes out on top, this isn't going to be an easy win for either of them. Anyway, let's check out a great post made for each character.
Viner Post for Scarlet Spider is by Wyldsong
"If I were to argue a win for Kaine...just to play a little devil's advocate, we first need to look at his stats. Kaine is stronger than Spidey, faster than Spidey, and is far more ruthless than Spidey. While Spidey may not have the luxury of holding back when fighting the Lizard, it still doesn't mean that he is jumping into lethal tactics. It just means he has to use his full strength for the Lizard to even feel it. With his stingers, Kaine has the means to damage the Lizard, and a neck snap from an other enhanced Spidey at least dropped the Lizard temporarily once upon a time. As for the Spidey brain stab...it could be argued that the Lizard was subdued due to the cure, but on the other side of the argument, we don't have a whole lot of proof stating that it wasn't the piercing of the brain itself that subdued the Lizard.
While it may be argued that Kaine doesn't use his webbing as tactically and as often as Pete, there are instances of its use when he is on the ropes or even facing a difficult foe. For example, take a look in Scarlet Spider #2, when he faced the fire wielding Salamander. Kaine at one point webs himself up to survive a fire attack, breaks his webbing, then webs Salamander up before dealing the finishing blow. You can also see an instance where he uses webbing to help put a choke hold on Salamander. I can find enough instances of him using webbing tactically in combat to make a decent argument of him being more than just a base brawler, and having the presence of mind to use it when he needs it.
His damage soak seems to be about equivalent to Pete, as he can take a ton of punishment (blunt, slashing, piercing, etc) and can keep on going without missing a step. The stealth suit, while not used in every battle, has been used enough in combat for consideration as well. He has feats of reacting to speedsters (fast enough to cut one's leg off and he avoided their attack), a teleporter, and so on, and attacks he wasn't aware of. He has enough bullet and energy attack dodging feats to be considered moderately impressive by Spidey standards, so he definitely has the agility angle covered...not that the Lizard will be using bullets or energy attacks...but he is comparable to Spidey stat wise in that arena.
With all of this in mind, it could be arguable for Kaine taking a very slim majority. He has the means to hurt the Lizard with his stingers, it is not out of the realm of feasibility that he could use his stealth suit in combat for an advantage, and he has used webbing while brawling in hand to hand, which would be harder to dodge up close and personal. When you factor in that the Lizard could be dropped or slowed by a neck snap or brain piercing, and the fact that it is within Kaine's means and morals to do both (and that Kaine is far more brutal in combat than Spidey), I don't see it being out of the realm of feasibility for Kaine to pull a win.
Anyhow, thus endeth my devil's advocate rant."
Viner Post for Lizard is by jashro44
"Anyways just to provide some more reasons as to why I think Lizard wins, I was rushing to respond to everyones argument because I felt people were really underestimating the Lizard. Anyways even though I said Lizard wins 8-9/10 I still think this would be an epic fight and bloody fight. Kaine definitely has the means to challenge Lizard but ultimately Kaine is outclassed.
Strength: In terms of strength the only major feat I can think of for Lizard off the top of my head is rag dolling spider-man around. Admittedly this is a feat which Kaine can also do however I am going to give the edge to Lizard. Even before Lizard current transformation I would say he was stronger than peter. Peter even went on to state that the Lizard is 3X stronger than he is. Now this could possibly be hyperbole however the main point here is that even before his upgrade. Now that he has been upgraded he is even stronger. Basically my reasoning for giving Lizard the edge in strength is that I would say that for the most part they were comparable before Lizard got his upgrade however now that Lizard got his upgrade in no turning back, his strength has increased.
Speed: This is where I think Lizard takes a huge edge. Looks at the fight between him and peter in no turning back. Whenever Peter hits him its because Lizard has his back turned and is focusing on civilians. The reason that Lizard isn't eating these people alive is because whenever he sees them he sees Connors wife and kids. Likewise k4tzm4n has confirmed he won't be suffering a mental break down so here this isn't an issue. Kaine is faster than spider-man however unlike Peter he doesn't have trainning form shang chi nor does he have spider-sense and these are things which help Peters combat speed a lot. If Kaine is faster than Peter's its not by much, and Kaine certainly doesn't use his speed and agility in the same manner as Peter. The fact that Peter couldn't touch Lizard tells me a lot about his combat speed, where as in spider-island when Kaine was in tarantula the spider-sense (which was randomly working for some reason) and way of the spider combination was too much for Kaine. Now he is different now but even so I think the comparison is noteworthy. Even as the scarlet spider he's been tagged by Anna, was having a hard time avoiding Kraven (he did win however Kraven did want to die as well so who knows...), and the lobos. Point being is that even if Kaine is faster than peter he lacks spider-sense to make up for it and this has been shown in many fights. And even with spider-sense and way of the spider Peter still couldn't keep up with current Lizard. I'm not trying to downplay Kaine but I just want to be clear that he isn't much faster than Peter is.
Damage soak: Again I am giving Lizard the edge here just for the simple fact he has a healing factor. He was recently stabbed in the brain, and Peter still needed to use all his webbing to hold Lizard down. That means that Lizard was still pretty strong. He's also been stabbed through the chest and he wasn't knocked out, and all though Kaine does have some good blunt force durability its not to the point where Peter hurts his hand punching him unlike Lizard. Now Kaines damage soak is very impressive as well. He's been shot in the shoulder and proceeded to tank multiple slashes across the face from the speedster (he probably moved with the slashes), He was slashed by Annas poison knife quite a few times and kept going, and he took 4 punches from a bloodlusted SpOck. I still say lizard is more impressive but Kaines pain tolerance will help him make things interesting.
Versatility: Kaines stinger will allow him to damage however so will Lizards claws and teeth. Kaine does have the webbing and the stealth suit but these are abilities he doesn't use often (and in regards to webbing he doesn't have the accuracy feats to tag Lizard). I think Lizard has the edge here simply because Kaine neglects his versatility quite a bit. In melee Lizards claws and teeth will be a lot more helpful than Kaines stingers since Lizard can actually tank the damage. Kaines pain tolerance will allow to take some slashes from Lizards claws and teeth, but he wont recover from them. Likewise I think a tail swipe from Lizard is more devastating than a punch/kick from Kaine. Yes Kaine has more options, but he doesn't use those options much.
I don't think Lizard has a huge advantage in any area but the way I see it lizard has every relevant advantage. Kaine could have the edge in versatility since he has more of it but as I said he really doesn't take advantage of his versatility. Additionally another point to bring up is Lizard is much more savage than Kaine is and will likely go for the kill. Kaines morals are loose but he does have them. Example is even after he killed Kraven he brought him back to life. Kaine will go for the kill if he has to but I think he will be a bit more hesitant than the Lizard would. He might not start out that way (he also might start that way as well but even so). And I may as well address the other but I don't see Lizard pushing Kaine to go into his other form. He's only done when his friends lives are at stake (basically when he is driven bloodlusted) so its not something which will help Kaine much. I will say if Kaine does go into his other form he would win, but its not happening in character.
I would really love to see this fight (even if I do think Lizard should win a large majority), and as I said I see a lot of blood in a fight like this. I just see Lizard taking a large majority and I can't see Kaine doing much better than Peter did recently."
Do you agree that Scarlet Spider should eventually beat Lizard or do you think Lizard's claws and durability would overcome? Feel free to share your thoughts and continue the debate below. Also, don't forget to check the homepage on Monday for a new Spider-Man Battle of the Week! In the meantime, you're welcome to make suggestions right here in the comments or via Twitter.
92 Comments