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Does Batman always win? Batman vs Captain America

Steve Rogers versus Bruce Wayne is without question one of the most heated debates in comic book history. Does Batman "always win" or is the super soldier going to take him down? We provide our thoughts!


Place your bets.
Place your bets.

"Batman always wins. Why? Because... he's Batman."

That's an on-going joke surrounding the character, but I thought I'd take it a step further and have some fun with the statement. "Does Batman always win?" will hopefully be a monthly feature where I'll pit Batman in close match ups, weigh the advantages of each combatant, and then declare a winner (just like I did with Movie Dredd vs Movie Batman). The battle will always be standard comic book versions with their standard gear and it will take place in a neutral setting: a traditional and unpopulated city block at night. This will be a random encounter with ample starting distance. That means there's no prep!

Don't make him
Don't make him "one punch!" you, Hal.

Why Batman? Batman is simply a human at the end of the day, and that makes his accomplishments that much more impressive. Not only is Batman one of the most well known comic book characters around, he also demands your respect as a combatant. Even if you don't like him, you still have to admire the fact that he's extraordinary skilled, brilliant and has a huge array of equipment packed away in that belt of his. He can hang with some of the best and most dangerous street level characters around, and since that's the level I'm the most knowledgeable on, I'm excited for many of the matches I have in store for all of you (I'm welcome to suggestions, too!).

I present to you my first "Does Batman always win?" segment: Batman vs Captain America. Both are accomplished tacticians and highly talented combatants, but they each bring drastically different advantages to the table. They've faced before in non-canon crossovers and both times they were pretty evenly matched. Do I agree with that or do I think one should clearly be the victor? Read on to find out!

Captain America's advantages

There's no bat spray to counter a shield to the face.
There's no bat spray to counter a shield to the face.

Bruce Wayne has reached peak human condition with years of dedicated training. He was chopping through bricks and kicking down trees at just 25 years-old, but despite being beyond what any real-life human is capable of, Captain America is still his physical superior. Thanks to the Super-Soldier Serum, Captain America is technically defined as enhanced human and this provides him with strength, speed and endurance above The Dark Knight.

Captain America has been seen bench pressing 1,100 lbs and is capable of running a mile in just over a minute. While top running speed isn't the most critical factor, it still plays a role and proves that given the opportunity, Steve Rogers can absolutely keep pace with Bruce Wayne. In fights, strength is always a big factor. It means strikes can be more powerful and he can overcome in the event of a grapple. And with endurance, it obviously means the Super-Soldier won't fatigue as quickly as Wayne. That's not to discredit Wayne in that regard, of course. The events of 'Knightfall' prove Wayne can push his body to absurd limits, but Captain America simply has the unfair advantage of the SSS.

Agility that shouldn't be underestimated.
Agility that shouldn't be underestimated.

On top of being physically superior, Captain America has the perfect offensive/defensive weapon at his disposal: a virtually unbreakable shield. In Cap's hands, the shield is a colorful weapon worthy of your fear. Not only can he wield it incredibly well when it comes to striking his opponent in close combat, but he can also throw it with a ridiculous amount of accuracy (he's managed to turn off a lighter on the floor), has the technical mind needed to calculate amazing ricochet shots, and can use it to block a majority of incoming attacks. To me, ricochet shots are quite a wildcard worth taking into account here. The disc to the back of the head or torso is sure to throw someone (yes, even Batman) off their game.

Additionally, Captain America has made the claim that he can simply "see faster" than regular humans, and that grants him the reflexes to use the weapon with incredibly efficiency when it comes to defensive measures. That's going to be key here considering Batman has the edge in hand-to-hand capabilities.

Naturally, Captain America has some experience facing characters similar to Batman. He's had a few fights with Daredevil (though most have had significant factors) and had no real trouble holding his own (in all of them except for the recent one in Waid's DD), taken down Taskmaster, has proven to be roughly equal to Black Panther, and had a close encounter with classic Iron Fist.

Batman's advantages

Can skill overcome physicals?
Can skill overcome physicals?

While Captain America has Batman outclassed physically and has one incredibly resourceful weapon, Bruce Wayne has some praise worthy advantages of his own. First and foremost, Batman is more skilled than Captain America. Rogers is very talented in his own right (once claimed to be adept at every style), but Batman has a level of skill that few street levelers can compete with. Somehow through years of extensive studying, his Bat brain has "perfected every known fighting discipline." (JLA: The Ultimate Guide to the Justice League of America). Not only is he more talented than Rogers in unarmed combat,but Dick Grayson has also made the claim that Wayne knows every single pressure point -- and we've seen Wayne disable foes with nerve strikes quite a few times before.

Shoryuken!
Shoryuken!

But, this isn't unarmed combat. Captain America has his shield and luckily for Batman, he has a wealthy amount of weaponry at his disposal. While Captain America has just one weapon (albeit an impressive one), The Dark Knight has variety on his side. America's super soldier has no counter for a cryo pellet, various gases, smoke pellets, light explosives and electric attacks. That's barely even scratching the surface of what Wayne can implement in combat, too.

Smoke pellets can further compliment Batman's already beyond impressive stealth capabilities as well. Batman has flawlessly vanished while he was right in the target's line of sight. To me, this totally defies logic, but it's a consistent feat in his career and therefore something he can do on a regular basis. If needed, Batman can use this environment to his advantage with proper use of his smoke pellets and grappling line. From there, it's a game of ninja cat versus steroids cat. Batman can regain the edge thanks to his stealth, but at the same rate, there's no guarantee the strike will be a critical game changer.

Batman has an extensive history of fighting characters physically superior to him. Deathstroke would be a prime example of this (since he's also enhanced). While Deathstroke has made short work of him, it's worth noting that Batman didn't implement his gear and Slade Wilson is, as he bluntly stated himself, more vicious and trained to kill. While Rogers has no problem crossing that line when required, it's not in character for him to be that aggressive in this encounter. Then there's Bane, a man of course less powerful than Captain America (off venom since that's how a majority of their fights went down), but still Batman has been able to overcome him thanks to his greater talent in martial arts.

The Verdict

Flip a coin.
Flip a coin.

Of course these characters fluctuate from writer to writer, but I believe that written to their full potential and thrown into this scenario, the outcome would be a stalemate. To think either has a blatant advantage to make the outcome obvious is simply false to me. Both bring valuable aspects to the table and it's completely logical to see either taking it. While Batman has the edge in skill, it by no means renders him untouchable to Cap, and one clean connect from his enhanced level strength or shield (be it a strike or ricochet) holds the potential to turn the tide. Meanwhile, Batman's stealth abilities and massive array of equipment that Cap has no immediate counter for are equally big wild cards to me. I legitimately believe it's entirely conceivable for either to be the victor in this case.

G-Man's thoughts

"I would say, even though Batman is supposed to win, you could expect Cap to win. ESPECIALLY because of The New 52. It just seems Cap has way more experience taking on a large variety of threats with many on a galactic level.

Batman, we have to assume, hasn't dealt with too many foes outside of his rogues gallery. Yes he fought Darkseid in JUSTICE LEAGUE 1-6 but what other huge threats did he face? Has he lead the JL on many missions or other teams? Cap has more experience and is prepared to go up against foes like Ultron, Kang the Conqueror and even Galactus. There's always the infamous "prep" time but unless Batman defeats him quickly, Cap would have the skills to keep dodging his attacks and the stamina to outlast Batman."

Who do you think would win and why? Sound off!
Who do you think would win and why? Sound off!

Gregg Katzman is a freelance writer for Comic Vine and IGN Entertainment. If this feature does well, expect another one next month! Be sure to follow him on Twitter for early spoilers every week about Rants & Raves and Best Battles!

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Eternal19

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Honestly. and Im not saying this out of Fanboyism, but Batman would win. But it wouldnt be easily or a stomp like some other people said. Bats Would win mainly due to his tech advantage, because theirs no way Batman is beating Cap in H2H, Cap's physical advantages outweigh batman's training. but, Batman has way to many gadgets in his utility belt for cap to counter. And eventually with all the various types of batarangs,explosives, and trinkets of all kinds, Cap will fall

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BatWatch

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@k4tzm4n said:

@batwatch:

Please do not give me a list of Cap's feats because I don't care.

TOO BAD. PREPARE TO BECOME AN EXPERT ON CAPTAIN AMERICA.

Just kidding. I think a reasonable argument can be made for either side.

I was getting ready to endure an annoying barrage of feats, but I actually agree with you completely.

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thejman251

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@thejman251: For a guy who spends a lot of time in the batman forum and has a batman avatar, You really dont seem like a batman fan

- Oh, now why would you say that?

- Is it because i'm critical of Batman? As a fan, i'm not obligated to love everything about the character like some senseless fanboy.

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Eternal19

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@eternal19 said:

@thejman251: For a guy who spends a lot of time in the batman forum and has a batman avatar, You really dont seem like a batman fan

- Oh, now why would you say that?

- Is it because i'm critical of Batman? As a fan, i'm not obligated to love everything about the character like some senseless fanboy.

Its just because I've heard you say more negative things than positive.

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thejman251

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@thejman251 said:

@eternal19 said:

@thejman251: For a guy who spends a lot of time in the batman forum and has a batman avatar, You really dont seem like a batman fan

- Oh, now why would you say that?

- Is it because i'm critical of Batman? As a fan, i'm not obligated to love everything about the character like some senseless fanboy.

Its just because I've heard you say more negative things than positive.

- Well, i feel as though there are more negative things to be said about the current state of the Batman franchise than positive things.

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MuyJingo

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@slimj87d said:

Suspiciously avoided? I referenced him running at around 60 MPH another time by another author, not just by Brubaker. I also showed scans of him blitzing past DD who was sprinting as well, if you look at those scans he bltizes and accelerates far faster than DD, you could even do the math if you wanted there. Cap was also chopped in the throat with the air knocked out of him by Frank Castle, when Frank ran up a flight of stairs Cap had already beat him by taking an alternative route.

Don't you think that it wasn't suspiciously avoided but rather suspiciously ignored?

Wikipedia and marvel wikia are WRITTEN by anyone. I have an account on both of those, if I wanted to I could go change those. to 10 MPH.

No, nothing was ignored. You ignored my question of whether those feats were isolated or happened all the time.

Sometimes in comics, writers are stupid and write the character as overpowered. It doesn't mean those isolated feats are representative of the characters powers. It's often the comic book equivalent of Superman rebuilding the great wall of china by looking at it.

If you can link me to multiple examples from recent issues where this is the case, then that's different. I'm not asking for scans, just issue numbers. I've read Civil War, Punisher War Zone and AvX...haven't seen the dude do anything a human in the best shape possible couldn't do.

Also, what you say about Wiki hasn't been true for many years. It is far less true on a Wikia like the Marvel wikia, which has many users and a community that is protective of content.

For what it's worth, I've found Marvels definitions peak human and enhanced human, both of which are under super human. Essentially, peak is still within reach for humans to achieve, just rare. It isn't the same thing and is in fact below enhanced human.

To quote:

Peak human is applied to physical abilities that are nearly, but not quite, beyond the limits of the best of humans. Enhanced human refers to superhuman abilities some distance beyond the limits of humans, such as being able to lift a small car but not a tank, and is a kind of term for "light" superhuman abilities. Then comes the term superhuman. Characters with a superhuman attribute are far beyond normal human abilities.

So yes, it seems wrong to call him an enhanced human.

Here also is a legend:

No Caption Provided

So yeah. Sorry, but I'm going to go by Marvel here instead of fanbois who's best argument consists of insisting their interpretation is correct and cherrypicked isolated feats.

If Captain America has a psychical edge over Batman, it isn't enough to give him the edge. I'm done arguing this unless there's actually something convincing presented.

Cap is peak, not enhanced. Case closed.

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slimj87d

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@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

Suspiciously avoided? I referenced him running at around 60 MPH another time by another author, not just by Brubaker. I also showed scans of him blitzing past DD who was sprinting as well, if you look at those scans he bltizes and accelerates far faster than DD, you could even do the math if you wanted there. Cap was also chopped in the throat with the air knocked out of him by Frank Castle, when Frank ran up a flight of stairs Cap had already beat him by taking an alternative route.

Don't you think that it wasn't suspiciously avoided but rather suspiciously ignored?

Wikipedia and marvel wikia are WRITTEN by anyone. I have an account on both of those, if I wanted to I could go change those. to 10 MPH.

No, nothing was ignored. You ignored my question of whether those feats were isolated or happened all the time.

Sometimes in comics, writers are stupid and write the character as overpowered. It doesn't mean those isolated feats are representative of the characters powers. It's often the comic book equivalent of Superman rebuilding the great wall of china by looking at it.

If you can link me to multiple examples from recent issues where this is the case, then that's different. I'm not asking for scans, just issue numbers. I've read Civil War, Punisher War Zone and AvX...haven't seen the dude do anything a human in the best shape possible couldn't do.

Also, what you say about Wiki hasn't been true for many years. It is far less true on a Wikia like the Marvel wikia, which has many users and a community that is protective of content.

For what it's worth, I've found Marvels definitions peak human and enhanced human, both of which are under super human. Essentially, peak is still within reach for humans to achieve, just rare. It isn't the same thing and is in fact below enhanced human.

To quote:

Peak human is applied to physical abilities that are nearly, but not quite, beyond the limits of the best of humans. Enhanced human refers to superhuman abilities some distance beyond the limits of humans, such as being able to lift a small car but not a tank, and is a kind of term for "light" superhuman abilities. Then comes the term superhuman. Characters with a superhuman attribute are far beyond normal human abilities.

So yes, it seems wrong to call him an enhanced human.

Here also is a legend:

No Caption Provided

So yeah. Sorry, but I'm going to go by Marvel here instead of fanbois who's best argument consists of insisting their interpretation is correct and cherrypicked isolated feats.

If Captain America has a psychical edge over Batman, it isn't enough to give him the edge. I'm done arguing this unless there's actually something convincing presented.

Cap is peak, not enhanced. Case closed.

You're claiming that it's "isolated" or "writers are stupid" because it goes against what you believe in. If you're going to knock of Steve for doing superhuman feats, than that's going to work against you because Batman's display of any feats close to Steve's is even more rare.

Lets go into other field if you would like. What about his superhuman durability? I know where you got that list, it's from the old masters handbooks. They list Captain America's durability as "peak human." Let me know what peak human survives something like this

No Caption Provided

Let me know what peak humans can jump out of aircrafts, crush ars, crush craters and have no damage to them.

No Caption Provided

He does feats like this ALL THE TIME. He has a lot of these type of showings, but I guess they should be ignored because you believe his durability should be peak human right? I guess there's nothing enhanced human about these huh?

I don't think it's case closed, and you haven't done a good job proving your point. If you showed any scans that showed Cap capping out somewhere or having a limit somewhere or unable to perform a feat that caps him at peak human you would have had a strong argument, but you don't. You're argument is just turning your head aside of all his feats and scans that have been quite consistent.

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MuyJingo

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@slimj87d said:

You're claiming that it's "isolated" or "writers are stupid" because it goes against what you believe in. Honestly, if you're going to knock of Steve for doing superhuman feats, than that's going to work against you because Batman's display of any feats close to Steve's is even more rare.

It's quite the opposite. You're claiming that Cap can run 60mph all the time, yes? That seems to be an isolated incident, most of the time he runs no faster than 35. Him running 60mph is far less exaggerated, but almost as stupid as something like Batman kicking the Spectre.

Let's make it simple though. If it wasn't isolated, can you provide me with 10, or even 5 issues where it happens, as I've asked a few times?

I'm gonna guess you can't, because it was one writer in one issue who decided to write him as overpowered -- and that's pretty much all you've got.

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slimj87d

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Edited By slimj87d

@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

You're claiming that it's "isolated" or "writers are stupid" because it goes against what you believe in. Honestly, if you're going to knock of Steve for doing superhuman feats, than that's going to work against you because Batman's display of any feats close to Steve's is even more rare.

It's quite the opposite. You're claiming that Cap can run 60mph all the time, yes? That seems to be an isolated incident, most of the time he runs no faster than 35. Him running 60mph is far less exaggerated, but almost as stupid as something like Batman kicking the Spectre.

Let's make it simple though. If it wasn't isolated, can you provide me with 10, or even 5 issues where it happens, as I've asked a few times?

I'm gonna guess you can't, because it was one writer in one issue who decided to write him as overpowered -- and that's pretty much all you've got.

You're trying to prove he's not enhanced by solely focusing on one thing, he's ran at 60 MPH proven on 2 occasions. But you ignore EVERYTHING else that shows he's a enhanced human. Surviving a bullet to the head thanks to a enhanced healing factor, jumping out of sky high aircrafts and landing with craters, crushing cars, etc. Work on tackling down those enhanced human durability feats I just showed. Or are you just going to say the writers are stupid?

How about you provide me with 5 or 10 issues where he can't? That's sounds simple for you, it sounds like you have some hardcore evidence you are hiding.

Captain America is a enhanced human because he performs enhanced feats such as:

1. Speed: He's been shown to run at 60 MPH on two occasions I can recall.

2. Durability: He's survived exploding building that killed everyone inside of it, a bullet to the head, falling out of aircrafts where cars as smashed in half, a crater is formed on his feat, a crater is formed when he tackles his enemy, and a aircraft is sky high into air 100s of feet high. Survived a crashing plane that killed two other people in it. He's survived a beating from Namor where boulders were exploded and crushed when he was slammed into them.

I could definetly type more.

3. Strength: I don't even know if I need to post all his feats of strength here that Bruce has never replicated. I'll just post some that speak for themselves.

Carries a giant utility pole around like it weighs nothing injured he dents a metal door inward, uses a 100 lb piece of concrete debri and throws it 2 stories high destroying a building, jumps up 2 stories high, pushes aside a 1 ton statue with ease, tows a supply truck with a broken axle through a desert, throws his 12 lb shield through a truck, helicopter rotor and helicopter tail.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3183/captainamerica616050.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2277078-2242941_captain_america_the_chosen_20070803070713618_super_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/7604/1269104-11ta6_super.jpg

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/189/camedusaeffect049td3.jpg

http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/4290/camedusaeffect050mq6.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6794/captainamerica256p13hi7.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2944/captainamericadmr2of303zm4.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/102836/2722673-throws_shield_through_a_truck_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37849/1463577-701166_captainamericav302535ux1_super_super.jpg

http://www.captainamericalibrary.com/superhero-library/Img/Gallery/captain-america-helicopter-l.jpg

By performing at enhanced level in any of these fields he would be considered a enhanced human and he often performs as a enhanced human according to the evidence proving he's a enhanced human.

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Voorhees100

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"This is never gonna end is it?"

"Nope, stay strong old chum."

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MuyJingo

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@slimj87d said:

How about you provide me with 5 or 10 issues where he can't? That's sounds simple for you, it sounds like you have some hardcore evidence you are hiding.

Lol. Kid, you were the one claiming you could show evidence and that it happened it many issues. I called you on that. You clearly can't provide the evidence you claimed to be able to, and you're now trying to turn that around on me.

No need. I'm done. Your inability to provide the evidence you claimed existed showed it all. No further discussion necessary.

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slimj87d

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@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

How about you provide me with 5 or 10 issues where he can't? That's sounds simple for you, it sounds like you have some hardcore evidence you are hiding.

Lol. Kid, you were the one claiming you could show evidence and that it happened it many issues. I called you on that. You clearly can't provide the evidence you claimed to be able to, and you're now trying to turn that around on me.

No need. I'm done. Your inability to provide the evidence you claimed existed showed it all. No further discussion necessary.

I think you are done here because you have no concrete detail to support your claims after dozens and dozens of post. Your debating method is just questioning evidence and claiming authors are stupid. When asked to formulate a proper argument and back it up with proper evidence, you "suspiciously" avoided doing so.

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novi_homines

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@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

How about you provide me with 5 or 10 issues where he can't? That's sounds simple for you, it sounds like you have some hardcore evidence you are hiding.

Lol. Kid, you were the one claiming you could show evidence and that it happened it many issues. I called you on that. You clearly can't provide the evidence you claimed to be able to, and you're now trying to turn that around on me.

No need. I'm done. Your inability to provide the evidence you claimed existed showed it all. No further discussion necessary.

I think you are done here because you have no concrete detail to support your claims after dozens and dozens of post. Your debating method is just questioning evidence and claiming authors are stupid. When asked to formulate a proper argument and back it up with proper evidence, you "suspiciously" avoided doing so.

Just stop. You're wasting your time. If Marvel wiki lists him as peak human, he's on the same level as batman. He can't provide evidence for proper scans or evidence that show, or tell that he's capped by peak human because he realizes they are far outnumbered by proof of the opposite. So he rather discount all of this so that this argument can be more balanced, and everyone just debates simply on opinions. And to think this all spawned from the Cap/Batman battle resulting in a tie. He is probably the most annoying batfan i've ever witnessed.

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MuyJingo

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@slimj87d said:

I think you are done here because you have no concrete detail to support your claims after dozens and dozens of post. Your debating method is just questioning evidence and claiming authors are stupid. When asked to formulate a proper argument and back it up with proper evidence, you "suspiciously" avoided doing so.

See, that's funny. Because out of the two of us, you're the only one who claimed to be able to provide evidence and when asked to do so, was unable or unwilling to do so.

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slimj87d

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Edited By slimj87d

@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

I think you are done here because you have no concrete detail to support your claims after dozens and dozens of post. Your debating method is just questioning evidence and claiming authors are stupid. When asked to formulate a proper argument and back it up with proper evidence, you "suspiciously" avoided doing so.

See, that's funny. Because out of the two of us, you're the only one who claimed to be able to provide evidence and when asked to do so, was unable or unwilling to do so.

I thought you were done here? For the record, I supplied 2 scans that show him running at around 60 MPH. You supplied a wikipedia entry of him supposedly being capped out at 30 MPH. The wikipedia part is the only funny thing about this whole debate. Have a nice day.

@novi_homines said:

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

How about you provide me with 5 or 10 issues where he can't? That's sounds simple for you, it sounds like you have some hardcore evidence you are hiding.

Lol. Kid, you were the one claiming you could show evidence and that it happened it many issues. I called you on that. You clearly can't provide the evidence you claimed to be able to, and you're now trying to turn that around on me.

No need. I'm done. Your inability to provide the evidence you claimed existed showed it all. No further discussion necessary.

I think you are done here because you have no concrete detail to support your claims after dozens and dozens of post. Your debating method is just questioning evidence and claiming authors are stupid. When asked to formulate a proper argument and back it up with proper evidence, you "suspiciously" avoided doing so.

Just stop. You're wasting your time. If Marvel wiki lists him as peak human, he's on the same level as batman. He can't provide evidence for proper scans or evidence that show, or tell that he's capped by peak human because he realizes they are far outnumbered by proof of the opposite. So he rather discount all of this so that this argument can be more balanced, and everyone just debates simply on opinions. And to think this all spawned from the Cap/Batman battle resulting in a tie. He is probably the most annoying batfan i've ever witnessed.

Yep.

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MuyJingo

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Just stop. You're wasting your time. If Marvel wiki lists him as peak human, he's on the same level as batman. He can't provide evidence for proper scans or evidence that show, or tell that he's capped by peak human because he realizes they are far outnumbered by proof of the opposite.

Gee whiz, you're right. I've come to my senses. Those isolated feats mean everything. But wait....

That means when Batman kicked the Spectre, or made Superman bleed, or can injure Darkseid...that he is far beyond what Captain America is capable of. Right? Right?

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MuyJingo

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@slimj87d said:

I thought you were done here? For the record, I supplied 2 scans that show him running at around 60 MPH. You supplied a wikipedia entry of him supposedly being capped out at 30 MPH. The wikipedia part is the only funny thing about this whole debate. Have a nice day.

Your criticism of wikipedia is as ignorant as is your ability to follow the thread. You did indeed supply the scans you mention. I then asked several times if they were isolated feats, or par for the course. You replied several times (I can quote you if you like), that you could supply numerous, multiple issues where this happened. I asked you to follow through on yoru claim several times, and you failed to do so. Because you couldn't.
And yes, I am done here, at least with you. I thought you deserved that clarification, on the off chance you realized that claims you had failed to follow through on. For the record, I also supplied scans from Marvel, defining peak and enhanced human.

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Azura_Thena

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@muyjingo:

Just out of curiosity, how much evidence would you need to replace a handbook entry with canon?

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MuyJingo

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@muyjingo:

Just out of curiosity, how much evidence would you need to replace a handbook entry with canon?

Not a lot, at all.

I asked if the feats such as running 60mph were isolated incidents or not. I've been told they are not, and some users like Slim have even claimed that there are multiple issues where this happens. Yet they were unable to show this when asked to.

If it's something that has happened, say, twice in the last 20 years then I'm more likely to dismiss it as PIS.

If it is not a case of PIS/isolated incidents, then there should be plentiful examples. I mean, out of 12 issues a year, at the very least at least 2 issues every year should have feats of him doing enhanced/super human stuff.

I don't even need scans, just issue numbers. If someone can show that it is actually the characters capabilities by showing the character is consistently portrayed at that level, I will concede straight away. So far though, despite claims made, people keep relying on the same few examples, which to me is suspicious.

So essentially, a list of issues (30 or so would be ideal) from the last 10 years showing the character at this level of power. Scans or issues.

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Azura_Thena

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@muyjingo said:

@azura_thena said:

@muyjingo:

Just out of curiosity, how much evidence would you need to replace a handbook entry with canon?

Not a lot, at all.

I asked if the feats such as running 60mph were isolated incidents or not. I've been told they are not, and some users like Slim have even claimed that there are multiple issues where this happens. Yet they were unable to show this when asked to.

If it's something that has happened, say, twice in the last 20 years then I'm more likely to dismiss it as PIS.

If it is not a case of PIS/isolated incidents, then there should be plentiful examples. I mean, out of 12 issues a year, at the very least at least 2 issues every year should have feats of him doing enhanced/super human stuff.

I don't even need scans, just issue numbers. If someone can show that it is actually the characters capabilities by showing the character is consistently portrayed at that level, I will concede straight away. So far though, despite claims made, people keep relying on the same few examples, which to me is suspicious.

So essentially, a list of issues (30 or so would be ideal) from the last 10 years showing the character at this level of power. Scans or issues.

You seem to be asking for an awful lot when you are only committed to providing only a handbook entry. Why is it that your single handbook entry is immune from the 'writers are stupid' accusation when they are written by writers that often have limited experience writing for the characters featured in the bios? This in addition to not being canon.

We have seen evidence of Steve Rogers pushing beyond the listed peak human limits, do you have evidence of Steve consistently showing peak human limitations?

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MuyJingo

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You seem to be asking for an awful lot when you are only committed to providing only a handbook entry. Why is it that your single handbook entry is immune from the 'writers are stupid' accusation when they are written by writers that often have limited experience writing for the characters featured in the bios? This in addition to not being canon.

We have seen evidence of Steve Rogers pushing beyond the listed peak human limits, do you have evidence of Steve consistently showing peak human limitations?

Please, don't try and turn the argument around on me.

It's not just a "handbook entry", it's the official stance of the company that creates the characters. Any information you find on the character is going to list him as peak human. So it's basically the companies description of the character and a bunch of published sources versus fans of the character. Given those two choices, I'm going with the inherently more reliable selection.

Since the fans are claiming something different to the above sources, the onus is on them to back up their claims.

Also, I really don't think I'm asking for a lot. If someone doubted that Batman was a detective, or some other core aspect of the character, I could easily provide many issues showing this to be the case. It isn't hard as I'm a fan of the character.

Shouldn't it be just as easy for Captain America fans to list some issues where he is consistently showing super/enhanced human abilities?

Conversely, if I were to claim that Batman is above human level (contradicting all official and published sources), and show an example of him kicking through a steel door or catching bullets as proof of this, and someone asked me to list more issues showing this aspect of the character as consistent...I wouldn't be able to. Because it's PIS/poor writing. That seems to be what is going on here with Captain America.

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Azura_Thena

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@muyjingo said:

@azura_thena said:

You seem to be asking for an awful lot when you are only committed to providing only a handbook entry. Why is it that your single handbook entry is immune from the 'writers are stupid' accusation when they are written by writers that often have limited experience writing for the characters featured in the bios? This in addition to not being canon.

We have seen evidence of Steve Rogers pushing beyond the listed peak human limits, do you have evidence of Steve consistently showing peak human limitations?

Please, don't try and turn the argument around on me.

It's not just a "handbook entry", it's the official stance of the company that creates the characters. Any information you find on the character is going to list him as peak human. So it's basically the companies description of the character and a bunch of published sources versus fans of the character. Given those two choices, I'm going with the inherently more reliable selection.

Since the fans are claiming something different to the above sources, the onus is on them to back up their claims.

Also, I really don't think I'm asking for a lot. If someone doubted that Batman was a detective, or some other core aspect of the character, I could easily provide many issues showing this to be the case. It isn't hard as I'm a fan of the character.

Shouldn't it be just as easy for Captain America fans to list some issues where he is consistently showing super/enhanced human abilities?

Conversely, if I were to claim that Batman is above human level (contradicting all official and published sources), and show an example of him kicking through a steel door or catching bullets as proof of this, and someone asked me to list more issues showing this aspect of the character as consistent...I wouldn't be able to. Because it's PIS/poor writing. That seems to be what is going on here with Captain America.

So is your stance that you cannot provide such evidence and will hold to the single, non-canon, often unreliable handbook entry which is discredited by canon evidence?

Fans have, from what I can see here, backed up their claims. You just have chosen to ignore, ridicule, and dismiss the evidence and the users. At this point, the burden of proof is on you in my opinion, to disprove the validity of these feats with canon feats of your own.

If you are unable or unwilling to do that, why are you still here?

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MuyJingo

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@azura_thena said:

So is your stance that you cannot provide such evidence and will hold to the single, non-canon entry that has canon evidence that discredits it?

Fans have, from what I can see here, backed up their claims. You just have chosen to ignore, ridicule, and dismiss the evidence and the users. At this point, the burden of proof is on you in my opinion, to disprove the validity of these feats with canon feats of your own.

If you are unable or unwilling to do that, why are you still here?

Did you even bother to read my reply? Did you understand it?

Evidence has not been provided, nor is the onus on me to provide evidence.

If you don't understand why that is, I don't think I can explain it in a different way. Sorry.

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Azura_Thena

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@muyjingo said:

@azura_thena said:

So is your stance that you cannot provide such evidence and will hold to the single, non-canon entry that has canon evidence that discredits it?

Fans have, from what I can see here, backed up their claims. You just have chosen to ignore, ridicule, and dismiss the evidence and the users. At this point, the burden of proof is on you in my opinion, to disprove the validity of these feats with canon feats of your own.

If you are unable or unwilling to do that, why are you still here?

Did you even bother to read my reply? Did you understand it?

Based on your reply, you seem to be just trolling. Baiting me with a very reasonable question though, nice approach.

Do you not intend to answer my questions?

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MuyJingo

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Do you not intend to answer my questions?

I actually wrote a fairly lengthy reply to your last set of questions, which you seem to have ignored.

Why would I bother to answer your subsequent set of questions, which appears to be just trolling?

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Azura_Thena

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@muyjingo:

I see a multitude of evidence provided and I see you dismissing it almost immediately after it was posted. So again, why are you still here when you refuse to substantiate your claims beyond the non-canon source?

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MuyJingo

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Edited By MuyJingo

@azura_thena: You still can't be bothered to read the reply I bothered writing to you, can you?

If you can have the decency to address that, where I took the time to address your questions, then I'll be happy to continue and answer any further questions.. Otherwise, I feel as though I'm wasting my time.

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Arkhamc1tizen

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Sadly batman

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k4tzm4n

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k4tzm4n  Moderator

@muyjingo: @azura_thena: Come now, a misunderstanding or not seeing eye-to-eye doesn't equate to trolling. There's no need for personal attacks.

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@muyjingo said:

@azura_thena: You still can't be bothered to read the reply I bothered writing to you, can you?

If you can have the decency to address that, where I took the time to address your questions, then I'll be happy to continue and answer any further questions.. Otherwise, I feel as though I'm wasting my time.

I did address that. I am sorry that you find my response below satisfaction but to be honest, I can say the same exact thing about how you have treated every single person here that disagrees with you.

You said that they are the official stance of the company, can you please provide a link to an article or some publication where Marvel states that the handbooks supersede the actual comics? These handbooks are quick-guides as far as I can tell. They provide a speedy rundown on a character for those that have rather weak knowledge of the characters and many of these bios are already verified to have glaring flaws. I will provide you with 3 others that I know just off the top of my head.

Wolverine – His bio states that if he loses his organs or if he suffers significant loss of blood, he will die. This has been proven to be incorrect countless times.

Spider-Man – His bio states that he is limited to 10 ton strength. I don’t believe there has ever been a time when that has actually been true in the comics beyond the 70s.

Daredevil – His bio limits him to Olympic level but he performs peak human feats several times in his career.

Captain America – Limited to peak but has several enhanced human feats and I don’t think there has ever been a time when Captain America showed peak human limitations.

These handbooks are written by flawed writers and given the stamp of approval by flawed editors. They carry no more weight than any single comic book issue. However, the comics provide multiple accounts, which call the validity of these handbooks into question.

I think I would be more inclined to take the feats written by story-tellers that have been with Captain America for over a hundred issues before I would take what basically amounts to an often inaccurate, non-canon reference book. Whether or not a specific feat is repeated is not really relevant. What is relevant is that he breaks this limitation several times and there seems to be absolutely no counter-evidence provided by you. Again, you are either unwilling or unable. I am inclined to believe the latter though based on your overly aggressive attitude.

Look, the bottom line is that you are going to believe whatever you want to believe and that is completely cool but so far, you have provided little to convince others. If you do not care to convince others, that is fine too… but that just means you are here to verbally abuse others and that is not fine. If you do want to convince others, you are going to have to provide something other than a handbook that has yet to be proven correct and suggestions that everyone except you is stupid, a troll, or a waste of your time.

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of course Batman.

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novi_homines

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Look, the bottom line is that you are going to believe whatever you want to believe and that is completely cool but so far, you have provided little to convince others. If you do not care to convince others, that is fine too… but that just means you are here to verbally abuse others and that is not fine. If you do want to convince others, you are going to have to provide something other than a handbook that has yet to be proven correct and suggestions that everyone except you is stupid, a troll, or a waste of your time.

I have told him this multiple times. He feels that as long as the handbook states him under the "peak human" classification, everyone else must provide evidence for cap being anything beyond this classificaion. Yet he completely discounts all feats, as well as all quotes and beliefs of various writers of the character. Basically handicapping the other side into having no ammo in the debate.

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MuyJingo

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I have told him this multiple times. He feels that as long as the handbook states him under the "peak human" classification, everyone else must provide evidence for cap being anything beyond this classificaion. Yet he completely discounts all feats, as well as all quotes and beliefs of various writers of the character. Basically handicapping the other side into having no ammo in the debate.

That's a deliberate misrepresentation, and I'm sure you know it.

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robertstroy

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I say Batman wins, there is something this article missed out

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Strength_Scale |||||| http://marvel.wikia.com/Strength_Scale

if you got to dc universe strength scale(the link above on the left) and look for batman you would see his strength is 1000lbs + and he is in the category SUPERHUMAN. On Marvel's strength scale Captain America's strength is 1200lbs. I say out of 10 fights batman would win 7.

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Batman hasn't mastered every known fighting style. Batman is a master of 127 martial arts styles. Captain America has claimed to have mastered every known style in an earlier battle with Baron Zemo. How is Bats more skilled?

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Batman hasn't mastered every known fighting style. Batman is a master of 127 martial arts styles. Captain America has claimed to have mastered every known style in an earlier battle with Baron Zemo. How is Bats more skilled?

LOL, Batman has made the same claim several times. He's been stated to be a master of every fighting style, of "every lethal art known to man", he's claimed to know every possible way to kill a human being with his bare hands, Nightwing has stated he knows every nerve strike imaginable, the DC Encyclopedia states he knows every fighting style the planet has ever had, I could go on and on because there's easily about 10 times as many testaments to Batman's skill as there are for Steve's but you get the drift. The 127 styles thing is just the number of styles that were on a CD he gave Cassandra Cain.

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MyronLee26

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@citizenbane: any panels or issue number where he says that?

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Saren

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@citizenbane: any panels or issue number where he says that?

Plenty.

Widening Gyre:

No Caption Provided

Fugitive:

No Caption Provided

DC Encyclopedia 2008:

No Caption Provided

JLA: The Ultimate Guide:

No Caption Provided

JLA-Z #1:

No Caption Provided

'Tec 411:

No Caption Provided

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Moon_Bat_87

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According to the Chart of Classifications from Marvel as seen above, Batman would qualify as Enhanced Human Strength, Extraordinary Genius, Peak Human Durability, Superhuman Stamina, Enhanced Human Reflexes, Peak Human Speed, Enhanced Human Agility, Zero Flight Speed, I assume Peak Human Water Speed (no feats to back that up that I know of).

Captain America is Enhanced Human Strength, Enhanced Human Speed, Zero Flight Speed, I assume Enhanced Human Water Speed, Superhuman Stamina, Enhanced Human Regenerative, Enhanced Human Agility, Enhanced Human Reflexes.

Because they are so significantly close in abilities, I would say that this goes to Batman because he is more skilled in martial arts.

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Doctor_Whovian

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In the end, Cap would take this, but I imagine that it would be a very long, hard-fought battle. The only thing saving this from being a stalemate is Caps far superior stamina. He simply outlasts Bats, though they're a near perfect match for each other.

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Lone_Wolf_and_Cub

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Cap for a majority

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Master Aryan Race rogers > bruce black hair wayne

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sasquatch888

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I love cap but batman wins 7 out of ten times

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CalebHara

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Still Batman.

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Stronger

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Stalemate or Batman edges out the win via gadgets.

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Dbogan67theman

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This shouldn't even be on the table. Cap is enhanced human. Let's be clear on that factor. Enhanced human, since everyone keeps on changing his strength, agility and abilities. Not peak human anymore. Enhanced. Despite Batman going toe to toe with Bane, Batman went toe to toe with Deathstroke and dear merc took him out under a serious amount of blows before the New 52 change. And that's Batman without even using his gear on him. Hell, he gotten beaten with Nightwing with him. Cap took blows from Hyde and still was able to speak without having jaw having to be re-attached. Is that what the writers wanted do? Yeah. It's impossible to speak without having it broken by Hyde, who's gone toe to toe with Thor and Hulk. Now down to the real factor...again, writers here are watering it down the facts. Cap is a soldier. He killed during the great war of WW2. He will killed if it's necessary. Batman won't kill. Everyone keeps on missing that important factors...Rogers is a soldier designed for war. Plain and simple. Wayne isn't. Stealth? Let's get real here...Rogers is enhanced human...meaning all of his senses are enhanced. Wayne doesn't have that. Secondly, Rogers can go on and on in a prolong fight. Wayne can't because the human body will build up fatigue after 30 minutes. That's another important factor. Endurance. Cap will win.

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This shouldn't even be on the table. Cap is enhanced human. Let's be clear on that factor. Enhanced human, since everyone keeps on changing his strength, agility and abilities. Not peak human anymore. Enhanced. Despite Batman going toe to toe with Bane, Batman went toe to toe with Deathstroke and dear merc took him out under a serious amount of blows before the New 52 change. And that's Batman without even using his gear on him. Hell, he gotten beaten with Nightwing with him. Cap took blows from Hyde and still was able to speak without having jaw having to be re-attached. Is that what the writers wanted do? Yeah. It's impossible to speak without having it broken by Hyde, who's gone toe to toe with Thor and Hulk. Now down to the real factor...again, writers here are watering it down the facts. Cap is a soldier. He killed during the great war of WW2. He will killed if it's necessary. Batman won't kill. Everyone keeps on missing that important factors...Rogers is a soldier designed for war. Plain and simple. Wayne isn't. Stealth? Let's get real here...Rogers is enhanced human...meaning all of his senses are enhanced. Wayne doesn't have that. Secondly, Rogers can go on and on in a prolong fight. Wayne can't because the human body will build up fatigue after 30 minutes. That's another important factor. Endurance. Cap will win.

Feat for feat in nearly every area they are exactly the same. The only area is tanking meta hit feats.

Strength: Equal. But Batman has superior lifting feats by the way.
Reflexes: Equal. Both dodge bullets, light beams, etc. Both have seen a bullet coming from a far distance and moved out of the way.
Stamina: Equal. Batman has fought for days, so has Captain America.

I could go on.

You bring up stealth. Do you realize that Batman has gotten the jump on Superman?

You need to go through and read this thread, review the scans, and look into it a bit more.

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@azura_thena said:

I did address that. I am sorry that you find my response below satisfaction but to be honest, I can say the same exact thing about how you have treated every single person here that disagrees with you.

If you do not care to convince others, that is fine too… but that just means you are here to verbally abuse others and that is not fine.

The righteous one strikes again. Telling us all what we can and can't say, and discrediting all our arguments by claims of "rudeness" and flags, thus ensuring her self-proclaimed superiority! Thank god she's here, otherwise, we might have a forum with free exchange and expression! How scary would that be?

Also, regardless of whether Cap is an "enhanced" human, or a "peak" human, Batman would still destroy him. It's not about who has the physical edge, Batman has the intellect, he's the brilliant strategist, the Odysseus of the caped comic world; he will always find a way to win, regardless of what strength and/or powers his opponent may possess.

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Captain America WILL kill people on purpose. Been doing it for years. Rather take you in alive but if you end of dead. He does not feel bad about it!