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Does Batman always win? Batman vs Captain America

Steve Rogers versus Bruce Wayne is without question one of the most heated debates in comic book history. Does Batman "always win" or is the super soldier going to take him down? We provide our thoughts!


Place your bets.
Place your bets.

"Batman always wins. Why? Because... he's Batman."

That's an on-going joke surrounding the character, but I thought I'd take it a step further and have some fun with the statement. "Does Batman always win?" will hopefully be a monthly feature where I'll pit Batman in close match ups, weigh the advantages of each combatant, and then declare a winner (just like I did with Movie Dredd vs Movie Batman). The battle will always be standard comic book versions with their standard gear and it will take place in a neutral setting: a traditional and unpopulated city block at night. This will be a random encounter with ample starting distance. That means there's no prep!

Don't make him
Don't make him "one punch!" you, Hal.

Why Batman? Batman is simply a human at the end of the day, and that makes his accomplishments that much more impressive. Not only is Batman one of the most well known comic book characters around, he also demands your respect as a combatant. Even if you don't like him, you still have to admire the fact that he's extraordinary skilled, brilliant and has a huge array of equipment packed away in that belt of his. He can hang with some of the best and most dangerous street level characters around, and since that's the level I'm the most knowledgeable on, I'm excited for many of the matches I have in store for all of you (I'm welcome to suggestions, too!).

I present to you my first "Does Batman always win?" segment: Batman vs Captain America. Both are accomplished tacticians and highly talented combatants, but they each bring drastically different advantages to the table. They've faced before in non-canon crossovers and both times they were pretty evenly matched. Do I agree with that or do I think one should clearly be the victor? Read on to find out!

Captain America's advantages

There's no bat spray to counter a shield to the face.
There's no bat spray to counter a shield to the face.

Bruce Wayne has reached peak human condition with years of dedicated training. He was chopping through bricks and kicking down trees at just 25 years-old, but despite being beyond what any real-life human is capable of, Captain America is still his physical superior. Thanks to the Super-Soldier Serum, Captain America is technically defined as enhanced human and this provides him with strength, speed and endurance above The Dark Knight.

Captain America has been seen bench pressing 1,100 lbs and is capable of running a mile in just over a minute. While top running speed isn't the most critical factor, it still plays a role and proves that given the opportunity, Steve Rogers can absolutely keep pace with Bruce Wayne. In fights, strength is always a big factor. It means strikes can be more powerful and he can overcome in the event of a grapple. And with endurance, it obviously means the Super-Soldier won't fatigue as quickly as Wayne. That's not to discredit Wayne in that regard, of course. The events of 'Knightfall' prove Wayne can push his body to absurd limits, but Captain America simply has the unfair advantage of the SSS.

Agility that shouldn't be underestimated.
Agility that shouldn't be underestimated.

On top of being physically superior, Captain America has the perfect offensive/defensive weapon at his disposal: a virtually unbreakable shield. In Cap's hands, the shield is a colorful weapon worthy of your fear. Not only can he wield it incredibly well when it comes to striking his opponent in close combat, but he can also throw it with a ridiculous amount of accuracy (he's managed to turn off a lighter on the floor), has the technical mind needed to calculate amazing ricochet shots, and can use it to block a majority of incoming attacks. To me, ricochet shots are quite a wildcard worth taking into account here. The disc to the back of the head or torso is sure to throw someone (yes, even Batman) off their game.

Additionally, Captain America has made the claim that he can simply "see faster" than regular humans, and that grants him the reflexes to use the weapon with incredibly efficiency when it comes to defensive measures. That's going to be key here considering Batman has the edge in hand-to-hand capabilities.

Naturally, Captain America has some experience facing characters similar to Batman. He's had a few fights with Daredevil (though most have had significant factors) and had no real trouble holding his own (in all of them except for the recent one in Waid's DD), taken down Taskmaster, has proven to be roughly equal to Black Panther, and had a close encounter with classic Iron Fist.

Batman's advantages

Can skill overcome physicals?
Can skill overcome physicals?

While Captain America has Batman outclassed physically and has one incredibly resourceful weapon, Bruce Wayne has some praise worthy advantages of his own. First and foremost, Batman is more skilled than Captain America. Rogers is very talented in his own right (once claimed to be adept at every style), but Batman has a level of skill that few street levelers can compete with. Somehow through years of extensive studying, his Bat brain has "perfected every known fighting discipline." (JLA: The Ultimate Guide to the Justice League of America). Not only is he more talented than Rogers in unarmed combat,but Dick Grayson has also made the claim that Wayne knows every single pressure point -- and we've seen Wayne disable foes with nerve strikes quite a few times before.

Shoryuken!
Shoryuken!

But, this isn't unarmed combat. Captain America has his shield and luckily for Batman, he has a wealthy amount of weaponry at his disposal. While Captain America has just one weapon (albeit an impressive one), The Dark Knight has variety on his side. America's super soldier has no counter for a cryo pellet, various gases, smoke pellets, light explosives and electric attacks. That's barely even scratching the surface of what Wayne can implement in combat, too.

Smoke pellets can further compliment Batman's already beyond impressive stealth capabilities as well. Batman has flawlessly vanished while he was right in the target's line of sight. To me, this totally defies logic, but it's a consistent feat in his career and therefore something he can do on a regular basis. If needed, Batman can use this environment to his advantage with proper use of his smoke pellets and grappling line. From there, it's a game of ninja cat versus steroids cat. Batman can regain the edge thanks to his stealth, but at the same rate, there's no guarantee the strike will be a critical game changer.

Batman has an extensive history of fighting characters physically superior to him. Deathstroke would be a prime example of this (since he's also enhanced). While Deathstroke has made short work of him, it's worth noting that Batman didn't implement his gear and Slade Wilson is, as he bluntly stated himself, more vicious and trained to kill. While Rogers has no problem crossing that line when required, it's not in character for him to be that aggressive in this encounter. Then there's Bane, a man of course less powerful than Captain America (off venom since that's how a majority of their fights went down), but still Batman has been able to overcome him thanks to his greater talent in martial arts.

The Verdict

Flip a coin.
Flip a coin.

Of course these characters fluctuate from writer to writer, but I believe that written to their full potential and thrown into this scenario, the outcome would be a stalemate. To think either has a blatant advantage to make the outcome obvious is simply false to me. Both bring valuable aspects to the table and it's completely logical to see either taking it. While Batman has the edge in skill, it by no means renders him untouchable to Cap, and one clean connect from his enhanced level strength or shield (be it a strike or ricochet) holds the potential to turn the tide. Meanwhile, Batman's stealth abilities and massive array of equipment that Cap has no immediate counter for are equally big wild cards to me. I legitimately believe it's entirely conceivable for either to be the victor in this case.

G-Man's thoughts

"I would say, even though Batman is supposed to win, you could expect Cap to win. ESPECIALLY because of The New 52. It just seems Cap has way more experience taking on a large variety of threats with many on a galactic level.

Batman, we have to assume, hasn't dealt with too many foes outside of his rogues gallery. Yes he fought Darkseid in JUSTICE LEAGUE 1-6 but what other huge threats did he face? Has he lead the JL on many missions or other teams? Cap has more experience and is prepared to go up against foes like Ultron, Kang the Conqueror and even Galactus. There's always the infamous "prep" time but unless Batman defeats him quickly, Cap would have the skills to keep dodging his attacks and the stamina to outlast Batman."

Who do you think would win and why? Sound off!
Who do you think would win and why? Sound off!

Gregg Katzman is a freelance writer for Comic Vine and IGN Entertainment. If this feature does well, expect another one next month! Be sure to follow him on Twitter for early spoilers every week about Rants & Raves and Best Battles!

760 Comments

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ferber08

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Edited By ferber08

For god sake, cap's physical atributes makes the difference here. He is stronger, faster, more durable, more agile, etc etc etc... Steve was punches by Iron man several times in Civil War and was still standing... for Bat to KO him he's gotta hit him several times (what would be very unlikely due to cap being more agile, seeing faster and holding a freaking indestructible shield) and bat will tire doing so. Cap won't fatigue, he only needs to hit bruce once with his shield (or even with his fists) and as cap is faster and evenly skilled how the hell that would not happen? Cap would take it and it might be quicker than expected.

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PaperDemon

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Edited By PaperDemon
No Caption Provided

Batman will win. Why? Simply because hes BATMAN!!!!!

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TheRedFear

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Edited By TheRedFear

I agree with most of what you say, but you do Cap's skill a serious disservice. Everyone acts like knowing 127 fighting styles is so awesome...somehow failing to apprecciate that so many of those styles are extremely similar to each other, to the point of being redundant. There's not that profound a difference between a Tae Kwan Do roundhouse kick, and a Karate Roundhouse Kick. So what's smarter? Spending a decade or two mastering 127 fighting styles? Or mastering the five or six fighting styles which...between them...give you all you need to defeat the other 122? that's how MMA fighters do it, and we've seen how devastatingly effective it is. It's the old Jeet Kun Do philosphy taken to it's next evolutionary progression. Use only what works. Discard the rest. Why did Bruce Lee come up with such a philosophy? Because there was alot of useless stylistic crap in most fighting styles that got in the way of the actual fighting. When it comes to fighting skill, Batman may take the edge in quantity, but Cap takes the edge in Quality. And of course, Experience.

When Batman was training in Kung Fu, Cap was putting his skill to practical application in the field of battle. Learning in the heat of combat presicely what works, and what doesn't work. When Batman was training Tae Kwan Do, Cap was putting his skill to the life and death use against Nazi zombies, killer robots and other insane crap like that. When Batman was stumbling his way through Year One and Year Two, Cap was Judo-Flipping the Hulk. And yes, I'm aware that technically Batman wasn't even born yet during most of that. Familiarize yourself with the concept of "rhetorical device".

The point is Cap brings a massive resevoire of experience to the fight that edges out Batman's experience, and a skill set that is more than diverse enough to deal with any combination of Batman's 127 fighting styles, while being narrow enough to get more focused potency out of them.

While Batman was preparing himself for real fights, Cap was winning real fights.

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sweatboy

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Edited By sweatboy

http://screenrant.com/sr-geek-picks-captain-batman-chris-tucker-conan-dancing/batcaptain/

(Still like Darkclaw more)

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BlueLantern1995

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Edited By BlueLantern1995

G-Man's right on this one.

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Stronger

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Edited By Stronger

Batman would beat Steve.

Good battle.

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kuma_far

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According to JLA/AVENGERS Batman admitted that in the long run Cap would beat him out of sheer stamina

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utkanflash

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@ApatheticAvenger said:

It would certainly be close, and I love both characters, but I gotta go with Batman on this one. He's a more skilled martial artist, has a superior analytical mind, and an arsenal of gadgets that put Cap's shield to shame.

Cap is stronger and faster for sure, but let's not forget that the Super-Soldier Serum enhanced him to the peak of human potential and not beyond. The level of intense training Batman has put himself through is said to make him superior to any Olympic-level athlete, so he's pretty darn close to Cap without actually equaling him.

Batman would tire before Cap, but he'd be smart enough to see that and find a way to end the fight (which is admittedly a strong possibility for a stalemate). Objectively speaking, a tie is fair proposal, but I still think the edge goes to Bats.

Batman Wins
Batman Wins

This

This ;)

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Kerrigan

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@kuma_far said:

According to JLA/AVENGERS Batman admitted that in the long run Cap would beat him out of sheer stamina

Yeah, that's the first thing I thought of. If Batman thinks Cap wins, then Cap wins.

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TDK_1997

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Putting my money on Bats.

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WaveMotionCannon

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@SAMMO21Captain America.

Cap is smarter, Cap is faster, Cap is stronger, Cap has no weaknesses for Batman to exploit, Cap has the shield, Cap is a master of hand to hand fighting, Cap has more experience, Cap has more strategic experience...bat-fans and fanboys might not like it, but Cap comes out on top. OH yeah, and he's knocked out Hitler like 50 times.

This

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bucky8

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This isn't even well though out, they left out the fact that the super soldier serum enables cap to be invulnerable to gases and poisons. Also, Bruce Wayne is the peak of human conditioning, but Cap is the limit of human capability, no amount of training could get Bats to that level. Cap would EASILY eat batman for breakfast and shit Robin. There isn't any plausible way to argue it.

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MuyJingo

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@k4tzm4n

Can you clarify why you state Cap is "Enhanced Human" when all official sources list him as peak human?

I followed this thread after the article has posted, but may not have paid attention to this aspect of the post. If it has already been discussed, if you have already responded, please do let me know. I'm trying to avoid going through the entire thread again needlessly.

I don't know much at all about Captain America, he is one of my friends favorite characters however. He swears that Captain America is not superhuman, is at the peak of human potential, e.g. is as strong as any human could be, as fast as any human could be, but nothing surpassing that.

All official Marvel sources list him as Peak Human, not enhanced human. This is an important point, as you give Captain America the edge physically due to being an enhanced human. If he is in fact only peak, then he would tie with Batman physically, giving Batman the slight edge.

Can you clarify, or even better give some sources as to why you list him as enhanced human in contrast of what Marvel says?

Feats alone would not seem to be sufficient, as Batman also has examples of feats showing him to be what could be considered an "enhanced human".

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k4tzm4n

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Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

Official sources have also fluctuated on his fighting skill, underplayed T'Challa, and been all over the map for various other characters. Captain America has feats that fall much closer to the low superhuman range, therefore being above peak, but not quite superhuman. The happy medium in that gap is enhanced.

And feats are sufficient because Captain America does indeed have feats that fall in these departments -- and it's only logical to deem them as enhanced since we dub the likes of Daredevil and Batman as peak -- and said feats are above their capabilities. Captain America has feats that place him above both when it comes to strength, running speed, and he can even heal. He's the potential of what humanity can become, not what they currently are. There's no peak human that can run at almost 60 mph, yet he can.

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MuyJingo

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Edited By MuyJingo

@k4tzm4n said:

Official sources have also fluctuated on his fighting skill, underplayed T'Challa, and been all over the map for various other characters. Captain America has feats that fall much closer to the low superhuman range, therefore being above peak, but not quite superhuman. The happy medium in that gap is enhanced.

But we are not talking about those things you mentioned. Official sources have never fluctuated in regards to him being peak human.

And feats are sufficient because Captain America does indeed have feats that fall in these departments -- and it's only logical to deem them as enhanced since we dub the likes of Daredevil and Batman as peak -- and said feats are above their capabilities. Captain America has feats that place him above both when it comes to strength, running speed, and he can even heal.

Well, this seems like a dangerous approach. Comics being what they are, the abilities and feats of the characters in question tend to fluctuate with the writers and times. From what I understand, the feats that show Captain America being above peak are the exception, not the norm. It isn't hard to find feats of Batman doing things no "peak human" can do. For example, no human can bench 1000lbs, but Bruce regularly does.

He's the potential of what humanity can become, not what they currently are. There's no peak human that can run at almost 60 mph, yet he can.

Again, do you have a source for that? Everything official lists him as peak, not the best of what humanity can be, but the best of what a person could be right now. The only thing close to being a source for that is a post allegedly from Ed Brubaker that gets quoted a lot. Unfortunately the official thread it spawns from on CBR no longer exists. Even so, one writers opinion doesn't speak for the entire character, not when it disagrees with other writers and everything else published about the character.

The running at 60mph seems comparable to Bruce benching 1000lbs everytime he works out. Bruce wouldn't be considered an enhanced human, yet regularly does things no human could do. Comics take certain liberties with things like that, which is what seems to be happening in Captain Americans case. It doesn't seem enough to class him as enhanced and not peak.

Edit: Adding some examples from http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-forum/batman-as-a-physical-specimen-109809/

Feats of Strength:

Feats of Speed

Feats of Stamina

Since you want to use feats as a metric, can you give some example of stuff Captain America has done that clearly surpass these feats? If not, he really shouldn't be given the physical edge over Batman.

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k4tzm4n

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Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

Official sources have never fluctuated ranking T'Challa lower in fighting skill even though Cap himself has stated they're at least equal in that regard. IMHO consistent feats > rankings. Otherwise, Kraven is a 6/7 in fighting skill, meaning he's more skilled than Daredevil (who is consistently 5/7 IIRC). Clearly, that's not true.

You cite Batman benching 1,000 from Hush? Cap benches 1,100 lbs in Streets of Poison.

Batman dodges bullets? So does every other street leveler, the key difference is Captain America has stated he "sees faster" allowing him to get a trace on the bullets and react faster.

Captain America can run around 55mph or so. Batman cannot.

Captain America has a healing factor which has allowed him to recover from a bullet to the head and much more. Batman does not have such.

Cap is stronger, Cap is faster, and the SSS even grants him a low level healing factor. He is Batman's physical superior and this is something experts of both characters and even writers have agreed on. Seeing as I'm playing/reviewing Injustice at the moment, I really don't have time to get into more detail. If you want more feats, I'll simply call in @slimj87d and I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige.

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AkaBoAli

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I don't think it's a fair argument. Batman with all the training and the years he put in the job, he is still a normal man. While Cap used a experimental serum to arrive at his state.

Although if you want an answer, I have to go with Batman, BATMAN ALWAYS WINS!

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slimj87d

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Edited By slimj87d

@muyjingo:

When they say Captain America is the peak of man they mean the absolute peak of man, where the furthest a man would evolve without a mutation and is still considered a homo sapien.

The undeniable proof is in my thread here: For the scans you have to go tot he link because they're not showing up in this new format and I'm too busy to post them in this post. Scroll down on page 1. The post is built off of 4 different authors, 3 of them that plainly state that Captain America is the absolute peak of man which is sub-enhanced human.

Ed Brubaker is also credited for writing Catwoman, Daredevil, Batman, Iron Fist and Captain America. The man is very familiar with street leveler heroes and does his homework on them before he writes them.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/discuss-and-debunk-a-feat-with-a-viner-721916/

Captain America is NOT just a peak human. He is what humans will be one day when we evolve and he is at the peak of that.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

"Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph."

Here, this is what Brubaker was talking about.

And finally this is Ed Brubakers writing here where he clearly puts it out there in his own dialogue, no artist is determining an obscure feat here. Cap is clearly running 5 miles in 5 minutes.

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can."

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Alexander505

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Daredevil is more like Batman, physically

Absolutely wrong. Devil has never presented as a peak human. Batman yes.

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MuyJingo

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Edited By MuyJingo

@k4tzm4n said:

Official sources have never fluctuated ranking T'Challa lower in fighting skill even though Cap himself has stated they're at least equal in that regard. IMHO consistent feats > rankings. Otherwise, Kraven is a 6/7 in fighting skill, meaning he's more skilled than Daredevil (who is consistently 5/7 IIRC). Clearly, that's not true.

You cite Batman benching 1,000 from Hush? Cap benches 1,100 lbs in Streets of Poison.

Batman dodges bullets? So does every other street leveler, the key difference is Captain America has stated he "sees faster" allowing him to get a trace on the bullets and react faster.

Captain America can run around 55mph or so. Batman cannot.

Captain America has a healing factor which has allowed him to recover from a bullet to the head and much more. Batman does not have such.

Cap is stronger, Cap is faster, and the SSS even grants him a low level healing factor. He is Batman's physical superior and this is something experts of both characters and even writers have agreed on. Seeing as I'm playing/reviewing Injustice at the moment, I really don't have time to get into more detail. If you want more feats, I'll simply call in @slimj87d and I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige.

I think you're missing my point. You're ignoring official sources and going by feats, which is fine. I have no problem with that methodology.

In doing so though, you seem to be cherry picking Captain America feats and ignoring similar feats from batman. The world record from benching is something like 800lbs. If both characters bench 1000 (it was also in a Batman inc issue I believe), then how are they both not enhanced human in that regard?

Is Captain America running around 55mph consistently occurring? Or was it pulled out of one random issue? I posted a thread asking for more detail on this in the Captain America forum asking for more details, where people are discussing it and supplying scans. Someone posted a scan of him running 60mph but it seemed to do something he could only do in special cases, and was limited to that writer.

I don't really care about feats. Like I said, it's easy to find feats of Batman doing superhuman things. It doesn't prove much.

In one of the above examples he catches bullets out of midair...has cap done that?

I am more concerned with whether or not these feats are one off things, or if they define the character and occur consistently.

For example, while there is a feat of Batman catching a bullet that way, I wouldn't define the character that way or list it as an ability.

For what it's worth, quoting from the Marvel Wikia on Captain America:

  • Peakhuman Strength: He can run at speeds of up to approximately 48 kilometers per hour (30 miles per hour), and has on occasion run a mile when under duress mile (1.6 km) in 73 seconds (49 mph/78 kph).).
  • Peakhuman Speed: Captain America had been seen bench pressing 500 kg (1,200 lbs) which is consistent with his strength level, as benching is easier than military press lifting[60]. He can snap steel handcuffs and chains, and is capable of breaking through wooden walls and steel doors with a single kick.
  • Peakhuman Stamina: Rogers' body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing chemicals in his muscles, granting him exceptional endurance and lung capacity. He can exert himself at peak capacity for a hour without any rest and before showing any signs of fatigue.
  • Peakhuman Agility: His agility is greater than that of an Olympic gold medalist.He can coordinate his body with balance,flexibility, and dexterity. He also has the ability to leap 50 yards out in a single bound and 20 ft into the air without a running start.
  • Peakhuman Reflexes: Rogers' reflexes border on superhuman level. His reaction speed is 20 kph, which makes it possible for him to dodge gunfire even in point blank range from multiple gunners at the same time.

So, the speed is generally around 30mph. The rest doesn't put him that much ahead of Batman, or more importantly it would seem Batman is just as much an "enhanced human" without the healing factor. He can bench almost as much, he has very similar agility and reflexes. Going by feats, his catching bullet feat is perhaps more impressive than dodging. He can kick through steel doors, break out of jail by removing the bars etc...

For comparisons sake, look at Bruce's DC Wikia entry.

  • Peak Human Strength: Batman regularly bench-presses at least 1000 lbs. during his exercise routine.
  • Peak Human Reflexes: Bruce's reflexes were honed to such a degree that he has caught one of Green Arrow's arrows in mid flight when he tried to shoot him. He has also been able to dodge point blank gunfire.
  • Peak Human Speed: He could run at speeds comparable to the finest competing athletes.
  • Peak Human Endurance: His endurance was comparable to that of the finest Olympic Decathlon participant. His lung capacity was so great that he could hold his breath underwater for 3 minutes and 15 seconds. He can survive in the airless vacuum of space for exactly 27 seconds.[245]
  • Peak Human Agility: His agility was greater than that of a Chinese acrobat and an Olympic gold medalist gymnast.

It seems that they are both enhanced humans, going by feats. Cap has the healing and speed, while Batman has better endurance and reflexes.

Can cap catch bullets/arrows or survive in the vacuum of space?

Also, I get that you're busy. I'm happy to wait till if/when you have time so you can give a detailed answer, as I find this very interesting.

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slimj87d

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Edited By slimj87d

@muyjingo: You mean 4 of Marvel's writers that wrote Captain America for almost 4 decades isn't official enough for you?

Also, I don't think you are getting the point. When they say the peak of man, they meant he absolute peak of man, as in the farthest a homo sapien can go. So it doesn't stray too far from your "official" sources.

Bruce is the peak of man of this generation. Steve is suppose to be the peak of man of the next generation.

Did you even bother checking out the scans? I don't think you did.

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Third to last is from heroic age where Steve puts in his file about T'Challa and he lists him as enhanced. Last two are from hammer files, lists Cap as enhanced.

I don't think you have an open mind in this discussion. No matter what is presented or stated to you, it will not sway your opinion. So I don't see a point in discussing this any further.

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@muyjingo: And to answer your question, he has ran at 60 MPH on another occasion. Ed Brubaker wrote that story where Bucky needed to be saved. Ed Brubaker does his homework, read what he wrote. He gets a lot of his stuff from things that Cap has already shown or done. The 60 MPH thing was influenced from this event. These birds are bred and native to these snow areas and they run at 50 MPH, Captain America runs faster than them and he does it in the snow.

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Ed Brubaker's part where Captain America runs 60 MPH.

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@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo: You mean 4 of Marvel's writers that wrote Captain America for almost 4 decades isn't official enough for you?

Do you have quotes from these 4 writers? I haven't seen any supplied. Only the post allegedly from Brubaker.

Also, I don't think you are getting the point. When they say the peak of man, they meant he absolute peak of man, as in the farthest a homo sapien can go. So it doesn't stray too far from your "official" sources.

Lol? Where do you get that definition from. Peak human means the most a human is capable of today, not what humanity may one day be capable of in the future. Are you using the brubaker quote for your source on this?

e.g., the peak for human strength is however strong the worlds strongest man is currently.

Bruce is the peak of man of this generation. Steve is suppose to be the peak of man of the next generation.

Again, a source? Everyone keeps referencing that quote from brubaker, which simply isn't enough.

If the last 4 writers of the last 40 years have really said that, then I'd love to see it.

Did you even bother checking out the scans? I don't think you did.

I did, no need to repost them. They don't answer my questions.

The first one just says peak of human potential, which as as I described above.

The second says next step in human evolution, but I wouldn't read that as exceeding what any human i capable of today. It could be referring to the healing factor and that he is peak, naturally when most people have to devote their entire lives to get to that level.

The third would imply Cap is superhuman.I don't think it means much. Characters like Batman have been written to be a match for characters beyond them....it doesn't make them superhuman.

The card is interesting that lists him as enhanced...where is that from exactly?

I don't see anything relevant in the last one. I might be missing it, I'm sick at the moment..

I don't think you have an open mind in this discussion. No matter what is presented or stated to you, it will not sway your opinion. So I don't see a point in discussing this any further.

Well, that's just BS. If you don't want to reply or discuss it, that's on you. I certainly have an open mind. It's necessary, because I don't know enough about Captain America.

If you show me these quotes from the last 4 writers of the last 40 years, I'll concede. Of course, I'd still like to know how Cap is an Enhanced Human and Batman isn't, when they seem roughly equal and Batman outclasses Cap in some areas....

Although, k4tzm4n wants to go by feats and not official sources, in which case it shouldn't matter what the writers say, since in feats they seem much closer together than what official sources say.

At the end of the day, I'm asking for evidence and sources to back up opinions that go against official sources. I'm not seeing the issue.

If nothing else, I'd love to show my friend who insists Cap is only unable to do anything a normal human is capable of (after training, pushing themselves to the top) that this is incorrect.

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@muyjingo: The quote is in the scan above. It's plain aas site in their writing.

"THE PEAK OF HUMAN POTENTIAL"

"THE NEXT PART OF HUMAN EVOLUTION"

and Ed Brubaker just built off of that. The source was on CBR in one of Ed Brubaker's posts when he had an account on CBR.

Just tell your friend if they know any man in the world that can run at 60 MPH for 5 miles straight without tiring.

Ask them if a man can throw a shield so fast it goes through a truck, faster than a missile and slices through metal or chops off a helicopter tail.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/102836/2722673-throws_shield_through_a_truck_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37849/1463569-640294_captainamericav302709vk0_super_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35224/2228747-841828_ca0115ue5_super_super.jpg

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@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo: The quote is in the scan above. It's plain aas site in their writing.

You didn't read my reply, did you.

"THE PEAK OF HUMAN POTENTIAL"

"THE NEXT PART OF HUMAN EVOLUTION"

Quoting from my previous reply:

The first one just says peak of human potential, which as as I described above.

The second says next step in human evolution, but I wouldn't read that as exceeding what any human i capable of today. It could be referring to the healing factor and that he is peak, naturally when most people have to devote their entire lives to get to that level.

You're interpreting them in a particular way to back up your opinion. Objectively,there is no one right interpretation...there is a level of ambiguity.

and Ed Brubaker just built off of that. The source was on CBR in one of Ed Brubaker's posts when he had an account on CBR.

That's great, except the thread no longer exists. I don't have trouble accepting it, but there should be other writers saying this. You said the last 4 writers of the last 40 years have said it. Can you back that up?

Just tell your friend if they know any man in the world that can run at 60 MPH for 5 miles straight without tiring.

The official source put him generally running about 30mph. Is the 60mph thing (which yes, I've seen a scan of) a cherrypicked, once of thing? Or has it happened consistently, several times. If it is a once off thing, then it would seem equal to Batman catching bullets.

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Bruce is the peak of man of this generation. Steve is suppose to be the peak of man of the next generation.

WTF? Sources?

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@k4tzm4n said:
Place your bets.
Place your bets.

"Batman always wins. Why? Because... he's Batman."

That's an on-going joke surrounding the character, but I thought I'd take it a step further and have some fun with the statement. "Does Batman always win?" will hopefully be a monthly feature where I'll pit Batman in close match ups, weigh the advantages of each combatant, and then declare a winner (just like I did with Movie Dredd vs Movie Batman). The battle will always be standard comic book versions with their standard gear and it will take place in a neutral setting: a traditional and unpopulated city block at night. This will be a random encounter with ample starting distance. That means there's no prep!

Don't make him
Don't make him "one punch!" you, Hal.

Why Batman? Batman is simply a human at the end of the day, and that makes his accomplishments that much more impressive. Not only is Batman one of the most well known comic book characters around, he also demands your respect as a combatant. Even if you don't like him, you still have to admire the fact that he's extraordinary skilled, brilliant and has a huge array of equipment packed away in that belt of his. He can hang with some of the best and most dangerous street level characters around, and since that's the level I'm the most knowledgeable on, I'm excited for many of the matches I have in store for all of you (I'm welcome to suggestions, too!).

I present to you my first "Does Batman always win?" segment: Batman vs Captain America. Both are accomplished tacticians and highly talented combatants, but they each bring drastically different advantages to the table. They've faced before in non-canon crossovers and both times they were pretty evenly matched. Do I agree with that or do I think one should clearly be the victor? Read on to find out!

Captain America's advantages

There's no bat spray to counter a shield to the face.
There's no bat spray to counter a shield to the face.

Bruce Wayne has reached peak human condition with years of dedicated training. He was chopping through bricks and kicking down trees at just 25 years-old, but despite being beyond what any real-life human is capable of, Captain America is still his physical superior. Thanks to the Super-Soldier Serum, Captain America is technically defined as enhanced human and this provides him with strength, speed and endurance above The Dark Knight.

Captain America has been seen bench pressing 1,100 lbs and is capable of running a mile in just over a minute. While top running speed isn't the most critical factor, it still plays a role and proves that given the opportunity, Steve Rogers can absolutely keep pace with Bruce Wayne. In fights, strength is always a big factor. It means strikes can be more powerful and he can overcome in the event of a grapple. And with endurance, it obviously means the Super-Soldier won't fatigue as quickly as Wayne. That's not to discredit Wayne in that regard, of course. The events of 'Knightfall' prove Wayne can push his body to absurd limits, but Captain America simply has the unfair advantage of the SSS.

Agility that shouldn't be underestimated.
Agility that shouldn't be underestimated.

On top of being physically superior, Captain America has the perfect offensive/defensive weapon at his disposal: a virtually unbreakable shield. In Cap's hands, the shield is a colorful weapon worthy of your fear. Not only can he wield it incredibly well when it comes to striking his opponent in close combat, but he can also throw it with a ridiculous amount of accuracy (he's managed to turn off a lighter on the floor), has the technical mind needed to calculate amazing ricochet shots, and can use it to block a majority of incoming attacks. To me, ricochet shots are quite a wildcard worth taking into account here. The disc to the back of the head or torso is sure to throw someone (yes, even Batman) off their game.

Additionally, Captain America has made the claim that he can simply "see faster" than regular humans, and that grants him the reflexes to use the weapon with incredibly efficiency when it comes to defensive measures. That's going to be key here considering Batman has the edge in hand-to-hand capabilities.

Naturally, Captain America has some experience facing characters similar to Batman. He's had a few fights with Daredevil (though most have had significant factors) and had no real trouble holding his own (in all of them except for the recent one in Waid's DD), taken down Taskmaster, has proven to be roughly equal to Black Panther, and had a close encounter with classic Iron Fist.

Batman's advantages

Can skill overcome physicals?
Can skill overcome physicals?

While Captain America has Batman outclassed physically and has one incredibly resourceful weapon, Bruce Wayne has some praise worthy advantages of his own. First and foremost, Batman is more skilled than Captain America. Rogers is very talented in his own right (once claimed to be adept at every style), but Batman has a level of skill that few street levelers can compete with. Somehow through years of extensive studying, his Bat brain has "perfected every known fighting discipline." (JLA: The Ultimate Guide to the Justice League of America). Not only is he more talented than Rogers in unarmed combat,but Dick Grayson has also made the claim that Wayne knows every single pressure point -- and we've seen Wayne disable foes with nerve strikes quite a few times before.

Shoryuken!
Shoryuken!

But, this isn't unarmed combat. Captain America has his shield and luckily for Batman, he has a wealthy amount of weaponry at his disposal. While Captain America has just one weapon (albeit an impressive one), The Dark Knight has variety on his side. America's super soldier has no counter for a cryo pellet, various gases, smoke pellets, light explosives and electric attacks. That's barely even scratching the surface of what Wayne can implement in combat, too.

Smoke pellets can further compliment Batman's already beyond impressive stealth capabilities as well. Batman has flawlessly vanished while he was right in the target's line of sight. To me, this totally defies logic, but it's a consistent feat in his career and therefore something he can do on a regular basis. If needed, Batman can use this environment to his advantage with proper use of his smoke pellets and grappling line. From there, it's a game of ninja cat versus steroids cat. Batman can regain the edge thanks to his stealth, but at the same rate, there's no guarantee the strike will be a critical game changer.

Batman has an extensive history of fighting characters physically superior to him. Deathstroke would be a prime example of this (since he's also enhanced). While Deathstroke has made short work of him, it's worth noting that Batman didn't implement his gear and Slade Wilson is, as he bluntly stated himself, more vicious and trained to kill. While Rogers has no problem crossing that line when required, it's not in character for him to be that aggressive in this encounter. Then there's Bane, a man of course less powerful than Captain America (off venom since that's how a majority of their fights went down), but still Batman has been able to overcome him thanks to his greater talent in martial arts.

The Verdict

Flip a coin.
Flip a coin.

Of course these characters fluctuate from writer to writer, but I believe that written to their full potential and thrown into this scenario, the outcome would be a stalemate. To think either has a blatant advantage to make the outcome obvious is simply false to me. Both bring valuable aspects to the table and it's completely logical to see either taking it. While Batman has the edge in skill, it by no means renders him untouchable to Cap, and one clean connect from his enhanced level strength or shield (be it a strike or ricochet) holds the potential to turn the tide. Meanwhile, Batman's stealth abilities and massive array of equipment that Cap has no immediate counter for are equally big wild cards to me. I legitimately believe it's entirely conceivable for either to be the victor in this case.

G-Man's thoughts

"I would say, even though Batman is supposed to win, you could expect Cap to win. ESPECIALLY because of

The New 52

. It just seems Cap has way more experience taking on a large variety of threats with many on a galactic level.

Batman, we have to assume, hasn't dealt with too many foes outside of his rogues gallery. Yes he fought Darkseid in JUSTICE LEAGUE 1-6 but what other huge threats did he face? Has he lead the JL on many missions or other teams? Cap has more experience and is prepared to go up against foes like Ultron, Kang the Conqueror and even Galactus. There's always the infamous "prep" time but unless Batman defeats him quickly, Cap would have the skills to keep dodging his attacks and the stamina to outlast Batman."

Who do you think would win and why? Sound off!
Who do you think would win and why? Sound off!

Gregg Katzman is a freelance writer for Comic Vine and IGN Entertainment. If this feature does well, expect another one next month! Be sure to follow him on Twitter for early spoilers every week about Rants & Raves and Best Battles!

- My vote goes for Captain America as i'd rather he won.

- Moreover, i'd rather have Captain America in gotham anyway as i'm sure he'd actually accomplish something, and the city would be at least somewhat safer than it is now.

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Moreover, i'd rather have Captain America in gotham anyway as i'm sure he'd actually accomplish something, and the city would be at least somewhat safer than it is now.

Steve not have any kind of skill that make to think that he can take villain as Joker or Riddler. Cap is not good enough for Gotham.

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I thought he already one on the marvel DC crossover? and diff. bats

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Batman probably. He's more versatile and unorthodox.

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Bats takes this in a close one...too many gadgets for Cap to deal with.

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Please. Batman is about as human as Captain America you dolt.

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not even gonna read the comment threads, there will be an overflow of "Batman always wins" comments........

That shit piss you off as much as it does me?

Don't worry. Here's a video that I KNOW will make you happy.

Loading Video...

I know it's cheered me up whenever EXTREME Batman fanwankery is afoot.

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Yeah i'ma go for bat on this one

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@neiliusprime said:

not even gonna read the comment threads, there will be an overflow of "Batman always wins" comments........

That shit piss you off as much as it does me?

Don't worry. Here's a video that I KNOW will make you happy.

Loading Video...

I know it's cheered me up whenever EXTREME Batman fanwankery is afoot.

If you actually read the features, you'd see the title is only a joke and he hasn't won all of them. Also, I've rejected using Spider-Man because I said that's clearly unfair.

Please. Batman is about as human as Captain America you dolt.

Brilliant job expressing yourself in a respectful manner, especially when you're wrong. Wake me up when Captain America has the super soldier serum and it allows him to run 60 mph and even have a healing factor.

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@k4tzm4n said:

@hewhosees said:

@neiliusprime said:

not even gonna read the comment threads, there will be an overflow of "Batman always wins" comments........

That shit piss you off as much as it does me?

Don't worry. Here's a video that I KNOW will make you happy.

Loading Video...

I know it's cheered me up whenever EXTREME Batman fanwankery is afoot.

If you actually read the features, you'd see the title is only a joke and he hasn't won all of them. Also, I've rejected using Spider-Man because I said that's clearly unfair.

@hewhosees said:

Please. Batman is about as human as Captain America you dolt.

Brilliant job expressing yourself in a respectful manner, especially when you're wrong. Wake me up when Captain America has the super soldier serum and it allows him to run 60 mph and even have a healing factor.

Wake me up when anybody you know or have heard of can learn 127 Martial Arts, learn most and be proficient in all subjects known to man, be a master detective, push himself to the brink EVERY DAY fighting crime without serious lasting consequences that we see as he ages, fight well with a cape, bench press 1,000 pounds, leg press 2,500, leap as high as he does vertically, look that skinny and good looking, and, most importantly, take a blow from Darkseid (assuming SEVERE PIS/CIS wasn't involved in that scenario).

Name ONE person that can do ALL of these things.

Face it. In comic books, "PEAK HUMAN" is super-human, Batman included in that family just as much as Cap is.

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Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

You do realize peak human in comics isn't the same as peak human in the real world, yes?

What you're complaining about is something that's established and, frankly, has zero weight in a debate about how the characters act in combat. You're saying the concept of Batman shouldn't exist instead of dealing with the one that actually does.

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In comics, even regular humans have a greater physical capacity before they'd be considered "super-human" than the humans of our earth.

Which is actually supported quite a bit when you consider that the DC and Marvel Universes humans are often portrayed as having latent meta or x-genes or what have you that could give them incredible powers.

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It really comes down to popularity, exaggerations by fans, and who would fit better in the real world. Neither win.

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@k4tzm4n said:

Wake me up when Captain America has the super soldier serum and it allows him to run 60 mph and even have a healing factor.

I'm guessing you mean when Batman has the serum here...

I've asked you this before and others, and the questions has so far been suspiciously avoided. Is Captain America consistently portrayed as being able to run 60mph? Or was it one writer taking things too far, as sometimes happens in comics. Wikipedia, the Marvel Wikia and other official sources put 30mph as his peak speed.

@k4tzm4n said:

You do realize peak human in comics isn't the same as peak human in the real world, yes?

What you're complaining about is something that's established and, frankly, has zero weight in a debate about how the characters act in combat. You're saying the concept of Batman shouldn't exist instead of dealing with the one that actually does.

What might be worth addressing is if, or how the Marvel definition of peak human differs from the DC definition.

You class Batman as "peak human" in the latest article from these series where he is facing the TMNT.

Marvel officially lists Captain America as peak human.

For whatever reason you went against that and classed him as "enhanced human".

If Captain America has no physical edge over Batman, then Batman would win this fight.

It's important for you to perhaps clarify why you feel Captain America has a physical edge over Batman, when what you have written goes against official sources.

If you're going to go by feats, you should make sure they are consistent feats, and not cherrypicked examples to exaggerate the capabilities of the character.

If you have the chance, perhaps you could ask what Rick Remender thinks on Twitter? I also this is a good question to ask on the podcast, so it will be interesting to hear more input on the issue.

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k4tzm4n  Moderator

It hasn't been suspiciously avoided. I responded to it in that "Is Cap peak or superhuman" thread.

Running roughly 60mph on at least 3 occasions isn't something peak humans can do. Unless I wasn't CC'd on the latest e-mail which redefines peak humans. If that's the case, please forward.

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@k4tzm4n:

Great article!

Sorry, but I feel like Batman's standard gear is underrated here. It's basically his trump card in this match where virtually every other area is a stalemate. Sure, Cap has his shield which he can use both defensively and for some cool surprise ricochet attacks. Does that negate all of Batman's other options with the amount of equipment he has (apparently it does)? No way! He can also do similar surprise ricochet attacks with his batarangs... plus all the other equipment he has can very easily be used here to distract, slow down, confuse, paralyze and/or heavily damage Rogers.

Batman should have won this battle if we were allowing him his standard gear. He takes at least 6 out of 10.

If it were strictly hand-to-hand, I would call it a stalemate.

EDIT: Oh, also not forgetting that Bats will more readily fight dirty to win.

Haha! That's it. Great article though, man. :)

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@muyjingo said:

@k4tzm4n said:

Wake me up when Captain America has the super soldier serum and it allows him to run 60 mph and even have a healing factor.

I'm guessing you mean when Batman has the serum here...

I've asked you this before and others, and the questions has so far been suspiciously avoided. Is Captain America consistently portrayed as being able to run 60mph? Or was it one writer taking things too far, as sometimes happens in comics. Wikipedia, the Marvel Wikia and other official sources put 30mph as his peak speed.

@k4tzm4n said:

You do realize peak human in comics isn't the same as peak human in the real world, yes?

What you're complaining about is something that's established and, frankly, has zero weight in a debate about how the characters act in combat. You're saying the concept of Batman shouldn't exist instead of dealing with the one that actually does.

What might be worth addressing is if, or how the Marvel definition of peak human differs from the DC definition.

You class Batman as "peak human" in the latest article from these series where he is facing the TMNT.

Marvel officially lists Captain America as peak human.

For whatever reason you went against that and classed him as "enhanced human".

If Captain America has no physical edge over Batman, then Batman would win this fight.

It's important for you to perhaps clarify why you feel Captain America has a physical edge over Batman, when what you have written goes against official sources.

If you're going to go by feats, you should make sure they are consistent feats, and not cherrypicked examples to exaggerate the capabilities of the character.

If you have the chance, perhaps you could ask what Rick Remender thinks on Twitter? I also this is a good question to ask on the podcast, so it will be interesting to hear more input on the issue.

Suspiciously avoided? I referenced him running at around 60 MPH another time by another author, not just by Brubaker. I also showed scans of him blitzing past DD who was sprinting as well, if you look at those scans he bltizes and accelerates far faster than DD, you could even do the math if you wanted there. Cap was also chopped in the throat with the air knocked out of him by Frank Castle, when Frank ran up a flight of stairs Cap had already beat him by taking an alternative route.

Don't you think that it wasn't suspiciously avoided but rather suspiciously ignored?

Wikipedia and marvel wikia are WRITTEN by anyone. I have an account on both of those, if I wanted to I could go change those. to 10 MPH.

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Their are so many fanboys on this thread, its not even funny. Every other comment is extremely biased in favor of one or the other. And doesnt take into consideration both of the characters feats

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I'll admit that I'm probably just being a fanboy here, but I would say Batman just on a gut level. Maybe seven out of ten battles? Again, total fanboyishness and gut instinct without knowledge of CA's feats. Please do not give me a list of Cap's feats because I don't care. I think about this stuff enough. Just let me be a fanboy for a moment.

@eternal19 said:

Their are so many fanboys on this thread, its not even funny. Every other comment is extremely biased in favor of one or the other. And doesnt take into consideration both of the characters feats

I avoid these conflicts. It's either all unreasonable rabid fanboys or people obsessed with feats. In most things, I'm interested in cold hard facts, but I just don't care enough to compare every little feat to ever other feat. I'm sharing my opinion, and if anybody disagrees, that's cool. I'm not going to debate it because it never gets anywhere. I'll let more obsessed minds than mine battle out the details, and I'll stick to my unfounded opinion.

For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out BatWatch.net.

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@batwatch:

Please do not give me a list of Cap's feats because I don't care.

TOO BAD. PREPARE TO BECOME AN EXPERT ON CAPTAIN AMERICA.

Just kidding. I think a reasonable argument can be made for either side.

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Edited By Gracetrack

@k4tzm4n said:

Just kidding. I think a reasonable argument can be made for either side.

True, but I don't think enough credit was given to Batman's standard gear, and the different ways he can use it, in your battle synopsis. That's just me.

The shear amount of options he has with his gear should give him the edge 6 out of 10.

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Eternal19

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@thejman251: For a guy who spends a lot of time in the batman forum and has a batman avatar, You really dont seem like a batman fan