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Brutally Honest: Darwyn Cooke On How DC and Marvel Must Change

A simple question becomes the center of controversy

You can ask any creator that has been to a comic book convention- and they would probably agree with me- attending a three day convention can be both mentally and physically draining.  For a creator,  having to be "on" for three days, completing commissions for fans, answering questions (some of which catch you by surprise on camera), is not always easy. The occasional slip-up when answering a question on camera you have not been prepped for in advance is something to be expected. Particularly if it is a subject you are passionate about; and if you work in comics, you damn well better be passionate about them.

Writer/artist Darwyn Cooke ( Parker) has been taking a lot of heat since some of what he stated in an interview this past weekend at the Toronto Fan Expo was scrutinized and gone viral. And while I am not defending Darwyn, I can't say I was personally offended by his statement, but I'll let you come to your own conclusion. You can watch the video and read the transcript below.

  
 == TEASER ==

Interviewer: "I know you said you wouldn't be going back to Superhero's, right?"
Darwyn: "Yeah, well not in any big way."
Interviewer: "Is there anything you would like to see DC or Marvel change about the way they do business?"
Darwyn: "Yeah I want them to stop catering to the perverted needs of 45 year old men, I want to stop seeing Batman F***king Black Canary, I don't want to hear Batman swearing, I don't want to see him feeding a boy rats. I don't want to see characters getting raped in the a**, I don't want to see characters who have been straight for 60 years become lesbians overnight because the writer's too stupid or uncreative to come up with something decent. I want to see new characters for a new time, and when the industry of superhero comics realizes it's sights to the young people it was meant for, I'll be there with both arms and feet outside."

The comments about Batman are clearly aimed at All-Star Batman and Robin, which, if you read, then you know what I am talking about. However, that isn't the comment that ruffled so many feathers, but the bit at the end about lesbian characters. As The Beat points out, some have considered Darwyn's commentary offensive. But the thing is, Darwyn isn't homophobic- at least I don't think he is. In fact, as pointed out by the gayleague, Darwyn created Argo Bones and Kimball Richards, a gay couple that appeared in his run of The Spirit. If he had a problem with homosexuality in comics, I certainly don't think he would have included a gay couple in his book.

It's clear from the commentary that Darwyn loves comic books and has a real, clear passion for them and for the superhero genre- but that he perhaps longs for the superhero stories he grew up with. While he doesn't come out and state that the lesbian character in question is Kate Kane, we can assume it is she considering the most recent Batwoman title. Darwyn has since responded to the scrutiny at 4th Letter in which he stated:

"I think gay characters are an important and welcome part of any contemporary expression. What I want is to see creators and publishers creating new characters that are gay and lesbian, and spend the decades needed creating and supporting stories about these characters. It strikes me as opportunistic and somewhat wrongheaded to take someone else’s creation and after decades of established character action make that drastic a change."

So now I pose the same question to all of you. As a fan of the comic book genre, how do you think DC and Marvel should change? If so, how? What did you think of Darwyn's commentary?

171 Comments

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Theodore

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Edited By Theodore

hmm he sounds bitter.

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sora_thekey

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Edited By sora_thekey

It is totally understandable when a person is working and tired from a convention to be a bit... bitter.
I don't disagree or agree with the man, and I also think his opinion is valid, especially since we all have an opinion about certain characters, stories and creators.
 
I know a lot of you are huge fans of John Romita Jr's art and I haven't kept it a secret that I believe his art looks sloppy. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, and Darwyn is part of everyone, which is why I don't think people's feathers' should be ruffed for this...
 
As for changes... The only thing I would like from DC Comics to change is for some titles to be more new-reader friendly, and Marvel to make some 'events' a little bit better self contained...

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Shadowdoggy

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Edited By Shadowdoggy

well, it think there's a lot of archeotypes and "classic hero molds" that writers are always trying to live up to or duplicate 
even the idea of the anithero and the counter-culture hero are sort of played out and predictable now 
I think the only way to fascilitate REAL change, is for writers, artists and publishing houses to start putting out comics that break from convention 
and not in that standard "this character is the guy who always breaks from convention" sort of way 
there needs to be more unique voices shown the masses 
more ideas that don't already mirror something we've already seen before 
I think the next generation of writers and creators will be the ones to do it 
and instead of warping the story by turning heroes into villains or bringing back the dead 
they'll make real change 
and start doing what they think it amazing, instead of what has always worked in the past
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sfizzle

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Edited By sfizzle

I wanna see Frank Miller and Cooke duke it out now.

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Mr.Hulk_Smashin'!

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Perhaps.... they should fire Loeb??
And maybe don't have one writer, writing 7 different comics a month.

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NoXious

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Edited By NoXious

The sound clip makes it sound like the change to being a lesbian was way too sudden in the story. Genuine criticism, and people play the homophobe card? Education really is getting worse...
Can't really comment on the All-Star Batman and Robin arc, but it sounds like it's a universe I wont like if they do all the perverted stuff that comes up in the clip. I always pictured Batman as a stoic man with a good sense of honor and duty...

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RedHurricane24

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Edited By RedHurricane24

I really didn't find that offensive, and I can agree with the subliminal diss he did to Frank Miller. But his little tidbit about changing straight characters into homosexuals, yeah, that change basically injected new life into Batwoman, for which anybody can attest, was a convenient ploy to discredit Batman's rumored homosexual pedophile tendencies towards Robin.
 
Now, as for how DC and Marvel could change, that's another crime to make for another time.

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EnSabahNurX

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Edited By EnSabahNurX

 I can see what he means he was just a little harsh in the way he said it i guess. I agree with his thoughts on making a character suddenly gay(after already being established, not against gay characters) because it is annoying when a random writer just uses that as a new story instead of trying to be creative(seems like a cheap route). And i don't like seeing rape depicted in comics either it's in bad taste, it should alluded too but never shown 
(graphically) because young kids do pick up these comics(showing less is stronger than depicting everything). 
Actually i agree with Darwyn overall, batman doesn't need to swear, and some crap in comics is way too pervert and takes away from the overall story&art.    

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daak1212

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Edited By daak1212

Kate Kane was only made to make the populace of fans think he wasnt gay.  She was an ill thought creation and to see her changed into a conteporary hero is wonderful.  Did anyone give a shit about her before she became a lesbian?
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zzax

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Edited By zzax

I would say I agree with some of what was said. I think he is making comment about the darkening of tone of some comics and the useless violence or victimization of characters. I am all for mature comics and violence, but I think what he is referring to is the trend of writers who use these things as lazy tools to shock readers. It seems that both Marvel and DC seems to be shifting back a bit with Heroic Age and Brightest Day. 
 
However, I would disagree with the statement that comics are meant for kids and that somehow DC and Marvel have turned their back on those audiences. Sure there was a bit of innocence to the Silver Age comics, but Stan Lee was trying to tackle adult issues of the time that society permitted. Sure, kids could still enjoy Angel punching Magneto without understanding the metaphors of mutants and discrimination, but that does not mean they were not there. 
 
I would argue that if you had a young child and walked into a comic store now, you have a ton of options. Granted most of the mainstream titles might be inappropriate for younger children, but I think Marvel and DC have a ton of titles catering to all ranges of kids. Things like Tiny Titans, Power Pack & Thor, Teen Titans (animated), Brave and the Bold reach many different ages of children. 

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zzax

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Edited By zzax
@Mr.Hulk_Smashin'! said:
 And maybe don't have one writer, writing 7 different comics a month. "  
 
I completely agree. To a large extent, both Marvel and DC have been guided by one or two creators for a few years now. For DC it does not bother me since I tend to love Geoff Johns. However, I have all but stopped reading Marvel because I really am not a fan of Bendis or his story telling.  
 
In the old days it would be easy to avoid a creator or two you disliked, but Bendis has basically been shaping the marvel universe since Avengers DIsassembled. If you like him great, if not then you are like me and have avoided most of the company's output for years.  
 
I think more diversity of writing duties and perhaps a bit of separation between titles would help avoid that.
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Joey Ravn

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Edited By Joey Ravn

Yeah, I read this yesterday at Gay League. Funny enough, I'm not gay, but I usually go to "minor sources" for information :P I agree with Darwyn to a certain extent. Changing the sexual orientation of a well-established character overnight is disastrous. It doesn't matter if they go from straight to gay, or gay to straight, and for that matter, any major aspect of that character's personality: it's completely unrealistic and illogic, and it usually responds to marketing reasons.   
 
As for the violence and "maturity" of some comics... Well, I think both DC and Marvel have enough room for different approaches to their characters. They can afford an "All-Star" brand for Batman, where he screws whatever he wants and tortures Dick Grayson, and the mainstream continuity where Batman is Batman... or Batmen now. To each their own.

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Sasuke12

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Edited By Sasuke12

I completely agree with Darwyn. 
Political correctness is creeping in on the comics.
Nowadays comic artists are focusing on accomodating more provocative female and gay superheroes into mainstream comics and promoting their ideological or political agenda onto people's faces.
 
The traditional message and image of heroism is being faded away with time.

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cbishop

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Edited By cbishop

I agree with him 99% (the bit about comics being intended for kids is baloney).  Making a character gay that hasn't been gay is completely opportunistic, and smells strongly of "sales gimmick."  If Batwoman had been left a straight character, fans would have dumped her for her costume looking too much like a female Batman Beyond costume.  Renee Montoya being lesbian and becoming a costumed character at the same time as Batwoman's intro was just ridiculous.  Oh, and she had a relationship with Kate Kane, because clearly she's the only other lesbian in Gotham. 
 
He is spot on: create a new character that's gay or lesbian, and build them from the ground up, on their own merits, instead of changing something that's come before for your own story needs.  It's poor writing, and poor editing to let that happen.  Gay and lesbian groups are so quick to jump on any comment that sounds like it's not 100% pro-gay/lesbian.  Cooke's comment wasn't anti-gay/lesbian, it was anti-bad writing. 
 
Also, as a completely politically incorrect aside, if the gay/lesbian community truly wants equality, then part of that is receiving the same amount of negativity as everyone else.  I get trashed for being a stereotype - white, slightly overweight, close to 40, and a fan of comics - but I'm supposed to just man up and deal with it, or I'm a "fanboy nerd," or perhaps in a few years, a "perverted...45 year old man."  If someone says something even remotely anti-gay/lesbian though, it's a "hate crime."  Why should you get special treatment because someone doesn't like you?  Well, man up and deal with it.  Please understand: I'm against bigotry, and strive to eliminate it from my life, but I also get tired of hearing people whine every time something remotely negative comes their way.  Protesting the Westboro Baptist Church is one thing, but Cooke's comment was not aimed at the gay/lesbian community.

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Manchine

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Edited By Manchine
@Sasuke12 said:
"I completely agree with Darwyn.  Political correctness is creeping in on the comics. Nowadays comic artists are focusing on accomodating more provocative female and gay superheroes into mainstream comics and promoting their ideological or political agenda onto people's faces.   The traditional message and image of heroism is being faded away with time. "

@sora_thekey said:

"It is totally understandable when a person is working and tired from a convention to be a bit... bitter. I don't disagree or agree with the man, and I also think his opinion is valid, especially since we all have an opinion about certain characters, stories and creators.

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SirSparkington

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Edited By SirSparkington
@daak1212 said:
" Kate Kane was only made to make the populace of fans think he wasnt gay.  She was an ill thought creation and to see her changed into a conteporary hero is wonderful.  Did anyone give a shit about her before she became a lesbian? "
I agree. Beforehand she was just a golden age character made too dissuade rumors of Batman being gay. 
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Hamz

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Edited By Hamz

His comments feel justified. Most of the time the decision to change an established character's sexual orientation would be to either generate interest in a character who's losing popularity. Or because the publisher feels the need to have a token homosexual character within their roster. In short what he's getting at is the contrived nature such a decision would come across as. 
 
Honestly the biggest problem with Marvel and DC is that they have no idea how to breathe new life into what is slowly becoming a very stagnant industry. Instead of actually becoming creative with fresh ideas and characters they go back to the same old ones and either retcon them or run them into the ground.

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Mr.Hulk_Smashin'!

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@zzax said:
" @Mr.Hulk_Smashin'! said:
 And maybe don't have one writer, writing 7 different comics a month. "  
 I completely agree. To a large extent, both Marvel and DC have been guided by one or two creators for a few years now. For DC it does not bother me since I tend to love Geoff Johns. However, I have all but stopped reading Marvel because I really am not a fan of Bendis or his story telling.   In the old days it would be easy to avoid a creator or two you disliked, but Bendis has basically been shaping the marvel universe since Avengers DIsassembled. If you like him great, if not then you are like me and have avoided most of the company's output for years.   I think more diversity of writing duties and perhaps a bit of separation between titles would help avoid that. "
Exactly. And here are some great points.
 
  • It would create a few more job opportunities
  • We would get a fresh angle
  • Character Development. Do you honestly think Bendis and Johns have enough time to develop EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER THEY WRITE?!
  • Life experience: You may have one run with a major company, but you could use that and write your own book series, or start your own company
And I'm sure there are more.
Same with artists! They're people too! Everyone needs a break and some time to think.
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daak1212

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Edited By daak1212

I agree with the rape,  I kinda dont wanna see it but I would like the allusion of the charecter being rape.  Dont dumb down the story but dont make it lude. 
Who cares if Batman swears?  If Joker kills a bus fileld with kids and I was Batman I think I would drop the F bomb.  Also who cares that batman had relations with Black Canary or that he was a pchycopath.  We understand that you Cooke think that he should fit into a archetype but really there is so much that can do because you have to create new villians to fit the era since Batman cant change and then we would probably never see the villian again.  Batman being shown in this light isnt disgusting, it makes for a great story.  I would pay to See Captain America as a deshevled war vet but thats just me.  Also notice this was not to mainstram Batman but this was a sideproject, an alternate reality if you will
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TwistedBishop

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Edited By TwistedBishop

People agreeing with Cooke on Batwoman's presto-chango should bother to look up the fact that Kate Kane (the current Batwoman) is an original character who has always been gay.   Cooke's comment makes about as much sense as complaining that Batgirl suddenly became asian.

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danhimself

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Edited By danhimself

he sounds like a fanboy b!tching about what he doesn't like in comics....it also sounds like he only wants comics to be made for children which isn't fair to the adults who have grown up with these characters and have seen them grow a long with them....Marvel and DC both have imprints that cater directly to children and to say that all comics need to be made with children in mind is just ignorant.....comics are a form of entertainment just like movies, music, and novels....screen writers, musicians and book writers don't have to cater exclusive to children so why should the comic book publishers

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Calvin

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Edited By Calvin

I feel the same way about Poison Ivy! 
Pamela is one of the few environmentalist characters and she her motivation to do crimes is one of the most original in comics
 
How has she been used thought out the years, though? - Almost ever as a simple sexy villain, random assassin and bank robber !?! - Yes, there are plenty of "writer's too stupid or uncreative to come up with something decent" but they get along in the comic industry, because they sell to 'perverted of 45 year old men' ! 
 
Other examples could have been mention.  
 
 
PS - I guess the only good thing about All Star Batman was the art....
 

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Krakoa

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Edited By Krakoa

Darwyn Cooke can go read the Tiny Titans and Super Hero Squad. 

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Baddamdog

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Edited By Baddamdog

Babs! You told me you were gonna do your next brutally honest on that image i sent you D_X 
Now I am sad.

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Luthorcrow

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Edited By Luthorcrow

Honestly that was about the most asinine video I have seen in a while.  One because it suggests that some how censorship would be a good idea for DC and Marvel and second because it makes a ridiculous and at this point decades our dated view of comic books as for children.  Comics have not been nor intended for a young audience for quite sometime.  Since the rise of the alternative comic books introduced more adult themes and stories in the early 80's that simply has not been true.   
  
In fact the rise of the comic book pretty much marks the end of comic books being "just for kids".  The fact is comics really did not rise to a new level of quality until writers like Miller, Moore and  Chaykin pushed the boundaries in the 80s.  
 
I find tools like this just silly.  He should go back to making cartoons. 
 
If you are going to criticize DC and Marvel at least come up with something intelligent rather than just Fox News style blather.

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greenenvy

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Edited By greenenvy

If he wants comics or superheroes to be for children only again F that I sure hope not plus all the sexual inappropriate stuff makes it more realistic in some way. If you want superheroes to be for children again then make a new roster of new superheroes for a new generation. 

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RiddlingGambit

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Edited By RiddlingGambit

I love a good rant now and then. A+ rant from Darwyn Cooke.

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Amegashita

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Edited By Amegashita

  I think I found a new hero.  Down with bad writing!  Down with bad writing!!  Also no Black Canary and Batman! 

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Jordanstine

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Edited By Jordanstine

I don't want to see characters who have been straight for 60 years become lesbians overnight because the writer's too stupid or uncreative to come up with something decent.     
 
- Darwin Cooke


Just one little comment on that quote: 
 
That's exactly what I felt when after almost 20 some years of being asexual, Marvel went ahead and approved Peter David's pictch of turning Shatterstar and Rictor of X-Force into homosexuals unbeknownst by their original co-creator Rob Liefeld. 
 
Nothing wrong with gender orientation, but like Darwin Cooke put it, it completely felt like it was done just to come up with a story out of nothing. 
 
From Marvel Wiki
 
Rob Liefeld
, expressed his disapproval with Shatterstar being gay, saying he was meant to be "asexual, and struggling to understand human behavior." Marvel Editor-in-Chief Joe Quesada defended the development, and stated that if he wanted it changed, he would have to "take it up with the next editor-in-chief". Similarly, Peter David also defended the storyline, citing the work of other writers after Rob Liefield's tenure on the character.  
 
    
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GrimoireMyst

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Edited By GrimoireMyst

I agree with the rape part of the video. Everyone around me seems to love shows like Law and Order and CSI crap that have stories about it and since there is one t.v. that's hooked up to the dish so I have to live with it. I go and find comics to read during this time and the last thing I want to see it is everyone using rape as its so called "edgy" bomb in the middle of a story that could be just as gripping without it. Some might say that this issue brings more reality into comics but that isn't why I read them at all.
 
Hearing about the new Thor movie would have been a lot better if I didn't just find out that he was raped by moondragon in a story arc and that she's suppose to be a hero. Don't know about you but saving even the entire universe wouldn't get me to like her now.

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JoseDRiveraTCR7

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Edited By JoseDRiveraTCR7
@Sasuke12:
Oh shut up, that's not what he was saying. So being gay is somehow unheroic? And I agree with artist draing superheriones too provacative because it comes across as they have to have super powers and be look like this mainstream idolized vision of sexiness, but does that mean they can't have sex lives? Or if the comic shows them going on a date, dress as if they're going on a date? 
 
Plus, what are you talking about PC? How many women characters have been rape? How many minority are A-List superheroes?
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SuperXAsh

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Edited By SuperXAsh

looks like most of his beef is with Miller XD

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ImperiousRix

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Edited By ImperiousRix
@sora_thekey:  
I think at one point, Romita Jr.'s art looked really good; gritty and detailed in a way a lot of other artist's  work wasn't.  Nowadays, though, I tend to agree with you.  I don't know if it's because the inking or colors look wrong, but SOMETHING about his art just looks a tad... amateurish. 
 
On topic, though, I think Cooke has a point about drastic character changes and doing things for shock value.  Characters are created with an intended direction by their creators, and obviously those characters are eventually handed off to other creative teams to use.  Often times, in order for that team to push their own agenda, they end up carelessly treating characters and messing up the intended vision. 
 
And yes... nobody is happy with All Star Batman and Robin.  However, I think that series was just allowed to run at this point out of obligation to Frank Miller, and not really indicative of any "direction" DC wanted to head with the characters involved.
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rlmay3

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Edited By rlmay3

Are comics becoming ultraviolence to further plots and create grittier stories or are they doing it just to be sensationalized and made the topic of controversy? Are characters being made as lesbians because they stand for some moral ideal or are they just lesbians so they can be drawn is sexual situations with other girls? Or worse yet, are they made gay or by or what have you simply so the companies can claim they're being equal? 
 
It's basically the line between character development and character exploitation. Does Batman having a fling with some female character create drama for the story or just give older fans something to ogle!? I'm all for violence and sex and what have you, but there's a place and time for those elements to be used properly and cleverly.
 
And I don't think Cooke is homophobic or intended his remarks as such. He's just making the point that violence sex, and LGBT elements are becoming more predominant in comics, but possibly not with any purpose other than drawing attention.

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conformist21

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Edited By conformist21

batman is really a contradicting character, he goes into anything, whether golden esque or gritty,
complaining about one of his many faces seems a tad lacking seeing that's how far his popularity has taken him.
 
i'd actually who has been made into another sexuality in recent history that was merely gimmicky,
colossus is acceptable because it was a different universe yo

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longbowhunter

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Edited By longbowhunter

I cant say I disagree with him. I hated Frank Miller's All Star Batman & Robin. Also dont like to see straight characters go gay. To me the writer is saying being gay is a choice. It should be more organic. I wanna see new homosexual superheros. Ones who were gay from the get go.
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bingbangboom

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Edited By bingbangboom

I do think he has a point about catering to 45 year olds and it is hurting the industry. Truth is that comic books would have just been done with if it wasn't for other licensing deals such as movies, tv and videogames and toys that come alone with those items. 
 
More and more, you are seeing a distancing from pulling in new readers and giving these older readers what they want. I typically see it more with DC titles because there seems to be more a history with the universe and where it exist and it doesn't exist ala 52. I think Marvel really knows where it wants to go with it's core titles and how to market them and hopefully sell them to kids/teenagers. 
 
DC just seems to try things just to try thing like Superman walking. I sort of wish that it was all rebooted for good and just started at square one. I can't even read DC books without getting a headache of where they are going. I like Marvel better but it isn't about that because I would really love to read a really good Batman book. And I don't think things are going to get any easier with 2 Batmen. 
 
It makes it just hard for new readers to get into these books which is why sometimes these independent books do so well like Walking Dead. Just my two cents.

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ckal

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Edited By ckal
@Mr.Hulk_Smashin'! said:

" And maybe don't have one writer, writing 7 different comics a month. "

 
This. Seriously...this.
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ComicCrazy

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Edited By ComicCrazy

I kinda gotta agree with him. I mean I am pretty sick of everyone just trying to make comics as dark as they possibly can. I would definitely like to see everything get a little bit lighter in tone and things like that.
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ckal

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Edited By ckal

I agree with what Darwyn said also, probably except for the Batman swearing part.

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DeadlyWolverine

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Edited By DeadlyWolverine

I like the lesbians and stuff :P Woo BATMAN's love life is awesome! This guy is awesome, always post his interviews so we can have a laugh at them.

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Chris2KLee

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Edited By Chris2KLee

The language may have been poorly chosen, but I agree with the general sentiment. The last few years of "dark" super hero stories has gotten pretty weak, and reminds me of when everyone went grim in the later 80's after Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns. While some writers can use a darker tone to fit into a characters background and story, I've felt recently these sort of crazy violent character twists have been thrown around endlessly, watering down any real impact and coming across more as hack work.
 
I would say Cooke's own work has shown a stunning amount of maturity, and as this article stated, he hasn't exactly avoided the topic of sexuality in his work. But he handles it well. Some writers out there now I feel are just looking at what's hot in other books, or in TV and Movies, and trying to graft those themes onto characters and stories that just don't make sense.

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GraphicCasualFreak

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Sounds like somebody wants back in and hasn't been agreed with, so now, "Wahhhhhhhh!"

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Mbecks14

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Edited By Mbecks14

i kind of agree

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Gregomasta

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Edited By Gregomasta

I agree with Cooke wholeheartedly.  I'm glad someone has the balls to say it, in this politically correct world.

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elayem98

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Edited By elayem98

when he says he doesnt want to see characters r%ped in the #ss, what comic was that? cuz i dont remember that happening in all star batman and robin

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Edited By Gregomasta
@elayem98: Identity Crisis
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Edited By Icon

I personally agree with most of what he said, except maybe the comments about Batwoman (only because I don't know enough about that character's history to judge). But really, I too think we should see more new characters for out time, rather than constant tweaks to older established characters from generations ago just to make them fit a different mold.