Arrow: Less Batman Stuff, Please

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GalacticFork

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I agree with most of what was said in the article. Putting the stupid offer from Ra's aside, the biggest issue with this season for me has been time. I'd probably have been much happier after the first fight, if they would have time jumped with and reveal Oliver's been treated for several months. In that time, you could have had team Arsenal working together, and I'd have liked if Wildcat would have been working more intensively with Laurel during that time and even joining her. There would be a whole different team dynamic as they're trying to hold it together. Then it would have made Oliver's return more interesting as they deal with finding out he's alive, and he adjusts to the changes.

That said, I hope they get a good long standing, interesting badguy. Preferably not one that will eventually become good. We've already got the Arrow, Arsenal, Black Canary 2, Diggle, Speedy(soon probably), and Oracle (kidding (but not really)) on the team. I want it to be Waller. A whole season of Team Arrow getting caught up in Waller's Machinations would be awesome.

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darknightspideyfanboy

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@mrnoital: you know with katana being in there geo, black lighting and other outsider member being hunted/mention I wouldn't put past the show if olly down the future does form the outsider

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Mrnoital

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DeathpooltheT1000

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I am late to join the bullying against Arrow fans?

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MrMazz

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I feel you but also don't really care. With The Flash, the pilot clearly has set up Flash and Arrow as the respective poles of the superheroic specturm, just as Superman and Batman are the poles in main line DCU. Arrow is has the clear tonal lineage to Shadow which was a basis along with Zorro for Btman. This is only stuff that has been elevated in S3 when S1 overal plot had clear similarities to Batman Begins and the TDK Trilogy has been a clear aesthtic touchstone for the series, even if they rigtly camp it up a bit now.

In a world without Batman, Arrow can't help NOT being on some level a Batman analogue, it's easily widely understood grammar. I would like them to use more Green Arrow villians (that ax clan thing sounds cool) but GA also dosen't really have that interesting a mythos nd rogues gallery. I wish they'd turn Ollie in a left leaning (quasi-socialist by American standards but world wide not really) and play more into the socio-economic aspect of "Saving" Star(ling) City in way you don't really see in Bat titles.

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darknightspideyfanboy

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TheDanquah

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#107  Edited By TheDanquah

My only problem is his lack of beard. I mean come oooon?

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bigcimmerian

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@bigcimmerian said:

Can anybody tell me 10 greatest Green Arrow villains? Don't say Deadshot, Bronze Tiger or Deathstroke please.

1 count vertigo

2 merlyn

3 brick

4 Onomatopoeia

5 komodo

6 china white

7 clock king

8 Constantine Drakon

9 rainbow archer

10 bates

I know of them all, except last 2.

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Numbuh1Nerd

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I always seem to teeter the line between thinking "they're using too much Batman stuff, quit trying to be the Dark Knight" and "it's kind of a mirror of Green Arrow's development from knockoff Batman to his own character in the comics". I think after 3 seasons, though, they need to lessen the Bat-elements a bit and make him more of his own. The beginning of this season really felt like we were getting Green Arrow, but after Sara, all that fell apart. I'm just looking forward to that "Green".

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ivan_rizzi3333

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#110  Edited By ivan_rizzi3333

I have an idea.....I know they can't show batman on the series, but what about just showing how much batman is a better vigilante than oliver at this point? You can show him like a myth or an urban legend, like Oliver going to gotham and ''feeling'' this presence almost inhuman...like hearing a voice from the dark or seeing stuff already tidied up. Would help not only showing how different is batman's vigilantism and tactics are, but also inspiring oliver to up his game and be better

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SupremeHyperion

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This has definitely been one of my major dislikes of the show. The show is done well, and the Batman characters they have in the show are some of the best, but it's just not Green Arrow. I don't get excited seeing other characters placed in a universe I have seen so much already (especially in movies/tv).

They should just call Oliver's city, New Gotham

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inferiorego

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#112 inferiorego  Staff

@inferiorego: Some people like the jobs they do while you clearly do not.

You seriously don't know anything about me if you think I don't like my job. Keep on trolling.

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DrellAssassin

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You're wrong. This is literally only a problem with a relatively small group of hardcore comic nerds. The show is excellent and there's nothing wrong with it - the ratings don't lie.

Nothing wrong with it? Ratings are a indicator of quality? Please.

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Jyger85

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Are you sure they didn't mean Damien Darhk, the Titans villain?

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k4tzm4n

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#115 k4tzm4n  Moderator

Hey, thanks for all of the kind words, everyone. I'd quote/@ each person, but it would be a mess and odds are I'd somehow find a way to screw up the formatting. So yeah, thanks for nice words and what not.

@jyger85 said:

Are you sure they didn't mean Damien Darhk, the Titans villain?

There's a paragraph about that:

TVLine updated its report with a candidate that seems way more likely and is something I'd definitely embrace: a lesser-known named Damien Darhk. I'm all for this because it's focusing on a different part of the CW-verse (H.I.V.E.), can generate more material with John Diggle and the Suicide Squad, and gives the show a chance to sell audiences on a character that barely anyone knows. The show already has dedicated fans, so they don't need to show their take on A-listers at this point. They can incorporate lesser-knowns and it isn't a risk for them (unlike Beware the Batman), so that's exactly what they should do. Fingers crossed it'll be Emiko or Damien and not Bruce's son. I still love you, little dude, but you don't need to steal the spotlight in this show.

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greenarrowfan12

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#116  Edited By greenarrowfan12

@greenarrowfan12 said:

@bigcimmerian said:

Can anybody tell me 10 greatest Green Arrow villains? Don't say Deadshot, Bronze Tiger or Deathstroke please.

1 count vertigo

2 merlyn

3 brick

4 Onomatopoeia

5 komodo

6 china white

7 clock king

8 Constantine Drakon

9 rainbow archer

10 bates

I know of them all, except last 2.

one is from silver age and bronze age the other one is from winnick run.

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Vitality

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Arrow went down the hole for me when everyone and their sister, literally, started becoming badass fighters.

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Vitality

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#118  Edited By Vitality

@pingclang said:

This is why I quit tuning in. It's got a following and people love it but it isn't for me. I think they should have just done a Batman series to tell these kinds of stories. People are begging for a Batman show, shouldn't they give it to them? I don't even like Bats and know better. A true GA show would be a bit more light hearted and Ollie would be hilariously rude to people. He doesn't share his opinions nearly enough. I get what they wanted to do but it never felt like GA to me.

They are not able to do a Batman show. I can't remember why...but I remember reading about it back when Smallville came out...because the creators of that intended to do a Bruce Wayne/Batman show instead of Clark Kent/Superman, but they weren't allowed, so they went with Smallville instead.

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Amratheking

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We'll see what happens once "Gotham" ends it's run. Eventually, there has to be a live action actual Batman show. With Daredevil on Netflix, D.C. may get the hint (if it's good), and try years down the line. As it stands, Gotham had potential, but it just seems too darn silly now for my tastes. Perhaps they can redeem themselves.

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jonny1995

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Good article.

This is why there are times where it's hard to continue watching Arrow.

Seriously, does every single DC character or team need to have a dark and gritty movie or TV show adaptation?

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deactivated-5d3f071d30d9f

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Please less Batman would be great on Arrow.

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DEGRAAF

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I love the show but totally agree that they need to back off of batman mytho's.

Bring in the Monkey clan, the shield clan, Anarky, Catman, Cheshire, Drakon, (comic version of Count Vertigo), Doll maker (i know this is a batman villain but a less known one), throw Grifter in there too, Junior Diaz, Kobra, bring Komodo back, Lady shiva, Midas, Nix, PROMETHEUS should be a continuous villain, Roulette, create a new Shado or bring her back with the lazarus pit, Onomatopoeia, Sofia Cordon (bringing in more employees as cast)

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The_Kidd

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#123  Edited By The_Kidd

@degraaf: Good list but I think they already killed Doll Maker in Season 2.

@vitalius said:

Please less Batman would be great on Arrow.

Yes, one of the rare times less Batman is a good thing.

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deactivated-5d3f071d30d9f

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The_Kidd

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Supreme Marvel

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#126  Edited By Supreme Marvel

I'm only watching to see who appears and for some villains. This Olivier is boring. Most of the heroes are boring too. The only good solid character is Detective Lance.

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gridlock464

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I’m glad I’m not the only one that felt like the show completely used Constantine Drakon as a throw away character. Merlyn & Constantine were the only villains of note that most fans would recognize in Ollie’s Rogue Gallery. I was disheartened to see him mentioned as the new head of security and then never brought up again. I had also hoped that Merlyn (Malcolm though originally I figured Tommy would become a villain a la the romantic love triangle with Laurel) would have a larger role than he has had in the series.

I’m willing to give them a pass on Ras this season. If they continue to be Batman centric for the next couple of seasons I would find that troubling. My willingness to give them a pass on Ras I feel as if they are setting Ollie as the big bad for this season and that in the end Roy, Dig, and Felicity are going to have to show/convince Ollie that he has failed his city by literally making a deal with the devil.

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Scarbearer

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@k4tzm4n You more or less nailed my feelings perfectly. As someone that has a deep adbiding love of the Green Arrow, as someone who's favorite version was the Pre52 version, who I felt had so many great stories in him... I came to terms that on Arrow, he wasn't neccessarily going to be /my/ Ollie.. but I enjoyed how over the past 3 seasons, he started off as something of a Batman Knock-off (much as the Green Arrow simple was when he was first created in Comics) and watching him evolve into a character that while markedly different from the Ollie I know and love, but still true to his spirit in many ways.

Hell I was even willing to forgive is stupidly quick recovery, because I have some crazy tinfoil hat theories on what was really going on there. But then the last episode happened, and I feel like all of that got snatched away from me. Like the creators got scared and decided, "Ok lets play it safe.. lets tell a Batman story because we know people love that shit!"

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k4tzm4n

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#129 k4tzm4n  Moderator

@scarbearer: Thanks. What was your theory about Oliver's recovery? I'm wondering if the Alpha/Omega will play a role in that, but it doesn't seem like it will at this point.

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akzarr

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I just want to see less Batman characters, like ffs, GA has his own bad guys.

this

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Divine_Disorder

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Why so serious, Ollie? With all the Bat elements being mixed in, couldn't they at least let him keep his own distinctive personality? If they did, maybe people would stop calling him a Batman knockoff despite the similarities.

@k4tzm4n or anyone who knows, where are those Batman/GA panels in the article taken from?

PS: This is my third attempt to post a comment in this thread. My comment wouldn't show up the last two times. I kept getting an error message even after refreshing.

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Divine_Disorder

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I understand that some viewers are feeling that the Arrow is more like Batman. But look how far the show has been. This show is pretty good right from the start. Yes, the third season is bit of a letdown. But I'm curious to see why Ra has decided to pick Oliver to become the next Demon's Head. Also, who says that the Bat-villains can't enter Arrow's world? There are comics when villains crossover into another hero's territory. Is it that bad? Take a look at Spider-Man. He fought Dr. Doom (FF's arch-villain) and the Kingpin (DD's arch-villain). So why not Green Arrow taking on Bat-villains?

I liked to see where Arrow goes from here and how it ends.

The explanation behind Oliver's recovery can be simple. Maybe, Oliver wasn't dead. Remember, the sword was pierced through the side of his chest and fell down from the cliff. The freezing air might have stopped the bleeding; otherwise, he would have been totally dead. Therefore, Katana later applied some medicinal herbs or some liquid/potion to treat the wounds.

Villains crossing over to other heroes' territories isn't so much the issue here. But Ra's Al Ghul wanting Oliver to be his successor is a blatant rip-off of Batman. They want to use Batman's villains, that's fine. But they should at least come up with more original angles than that. It's like they're saying, "Batman doesn't exist in this universe, so it's perfectly okay to steal his stories and pretend they are Ollie's."

They can't stop using Batman stuff, because they know Batman works and want to go for the sure-money. Every movie, cartoon, TV show will have Batman or some Bat-related character in them. This is why MARVEL will always have better movies. MARVEL trusts the material and the talent behind it. The WB/CW/DC Comics don't, and are afraid to do anything without their Batman cash-cow.

There are no Bat-related characters in The Flash and that show's doing just fine. No Batman in Smallville either and that show lasted 10 seasons. Also, you might have heard about all the DC movies coming out starting next year. WB is finally giving other characters a chance. Isn't this what we've been clamoring for? It never ceases to amaze me how people can still complain about this when we're finally getting what we want. Marvel will always have better movies? How do you know that? How can you compare Marvel movies to DC/WB movies that aren't even out yet? Sure, WB has made quite a few stinkers in the past, but so has Marvel. As for the quality of future movies, no one can know for sure. At least wait until after you've actually seen them before commenting on how good or bad they are. It just sounds to me like you've already made up your mind and are determined to hate them no matter what. Try to keep an open mind is all I'm saying. Who knows? You might just be pleasantly surprised.

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k4tzm4n

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#133  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@divine_disorder said:

Why so serious, Ollie? With all the Bat elements being mixed in, couldn't they at least let him keep his own distinctive personality? If they did, maybe people would stop calling him a Batman knockoff despite the similarities.

@k4tzm4n or anyone who knows, where are those Batman/GA panels in the article taken from?

PS: This is my third attempt to post a comment in this thread. My comment wouldn't show up the last two times. I kept getting an error message even after refreshing.

First image: Green Arrow #70

Last image: It's from Kevin Smith's first GA story, Quiver. Don't know the exact issue since I have it as a collection. I think it's Green Arrow #5.

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Divine_Disorder

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Nightwing_786

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They could put Damian Wayne or someone close to it in two ways: Season 4 introduces BATMAN himself! OR Sarah had a child or something who was the son of Oliver and that son is Connor Queen!!!! or someone close to it but with more of a DAMIAN attitude! Which half explains why Nyssa been acting a bit more like a jerk to Ollie....

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Mrnoital

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rollingshadow7

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Preach Gregg, preach!

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k4tzm4n

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#138  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator
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Mrnoital

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#139  Edited By Mrnoital

@k4tzm4n: I kinda feel the same way about that and the Flash one

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Jmacq1

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You can't do "accurate" Oliver on a mainstream TV show, because accurate Oliver is a straight-up "left coast" liberal with socialist tendencies.

In short, the guys making this show aren't going to immediately turn off roughly 50% of the potential audience by making Ollie too "political."

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NYBreezy

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I'm already betting on Joker coming in Season 5 and shooting Felicity in the spine and turning her into Oracle. Let's go!!!!

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#142  Edited By sidekicK_
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.they've made arrow SOOOO OOC so they now have an excuse that they wanted to show us how arrow becoming GA. So now we know, if you want to be Green Arrow,you must be Batman first.

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Kramotz

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um... no. it's good the way it is, which it's batman-esque features and all. maybe you should stop watching the show.

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_RetroFire_

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@longbowhunter said:

@pingclang said:

This is why I quit tuning in. It's got a following and people love it but it isn't for me. I think they should have just done a Batman series to tell these kinds of stories. People are begging for a Batman show, shouldn't they give it to them? I don't even like Bats and know better. A true GA show would be a bit more light hearted and Ollie would be hilariously rude to people. He doesn't share his opinions nearly enough. I get what they wanted to do but it never felt like GA to me.

Well said. I like the show for what it is but Stephen Amell doesn't play an Oliver Queen I recognize.

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This was my biggest beef with Arrow. I've come to appreciate this version for it's uniqueness and different take. But I still would like to see the Olly who's a liberal smart ass.

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phocracker

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greenarrowfan12

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@greenarrowfan12 said:

@longbowhunter said:

@pingclang said:

This is why I quit tuning in. It's got a following and people love it but it isn't for me. I think they should have just done a Batman series to tell these kinds of stories. People are begging for a Batman show, shouldn't they give it to them? I don't even like Bats and know better. A true GA show would be a bit more light hearted and Ollie would be hilariously rude to people. He doesn't share his opinions nearly enough. I get what they wanted to do but it never felt like GA to me.

Well said. I like the show for what it is but Stephen Amell doesn't play an Oliver Queen I recognize.

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This was my biggest beef with Arrow. I've come to appreciate this version for it's uniqueness and different take. But I still would like to see the Olly who's a liberal smart ass.

Same

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LeRizador

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Honestly, Arrow should not have been made. Focus should have been on someone else tbh. Heck, I'd much rather watch a Young Justice reboot than Arrow. And the Joker can't appear in Arrow because , uh duh, he's appearing in Suicide Squad played by Jared Leto.

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SmoothJammin

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Exactly why I DON'T watch it.

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SmoothJammin

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...Too busy watching Daredevil instead.

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deactivated-5a4e0e8ea3dfb

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fact is Arrow set a Batman tone from the opening minute and that was a good thing because it needed the serious tone to balance out a guy running around with a bow and arrow against modern weaponry.

That doesn't mean the League of Assassins needed to be drawn in but its not exactly a bad thing. After season 2 it would have been a step backwards just to keep things focused on the city and gang activity like Brick. The show needed to stretch out a bit more after such a major arc.

The problem was the pace of season 3. It really could have been a "clean-up" season of getting the city back to normal after Slade and dealing with Brick's attempts at a takeover while continuing to explore the idea of metas existing outside of Central City. The mid-season shocker would have then been the death of Sara in order to lead to the Oliver vs Ra's in the season finale having just put the city and his family back together and not wanting to see Ra's tear that all down.

That would have left an entire season to deal with what the show rushed to do in half the time and given a great deal more weight and significance to the season finale we just had and the path Oliver choose to take going forward.

"But that wouldn't fit nicely with his Flash crossover appearances!"......but it actually still would as his appearance in Rogue Air would have simply concluded with the request to Barry to assist Roy, Diggle and Felicity whenever they needed it prior to going to his fight with Ra's......a very Batman long-term planning move but one that would fit into this iteration of the character and made a bit more sense than the final appearances of both in the other's respective show as each has a bit more going on at the moment that wouldn't exactly lend itself to heading out of their respective areas for a bit.

Despite how season 3 ended just seems like they've run through too great a villain too early in the show for season 4 to carry a lot of weight but guess we'll see.

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