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    Thought to be dead after a catastrophe at sea, Oliver Queen returns to Starling City a changed man, determined to fight injustice as a hooded vigilante who comes to be known as The Arrow. Based on DC Comics' Green Arrow franchise.

    Arrow: Less Batman Stuff, Please

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    Avatar image for ccraft
    ccraft

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    @k4tzm4n: Oh, well I've haven't started S3 yet. I probably get around to it sooner or later.

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    k4tzm4n

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    #52 k4tzm4n  Moderator

    @ccraft said:

    @k4tzm4n: Oh, well I've haven't started S3 yet. I probably get around to it sooner or later.

    WHY ARE YOU READING AN ARTICLE WITH S3 SPOILERS?!? Although, I'm guessing the big developments were already spoiled for you?

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    The dark tone doesn't come from Batman. It comes from Green Arrow: Year One and Longbow Hunters.

    And Longbow Hunters comes from a long list of dark and gritty late 80's comics inspired by the success of TDKR.

    And that in turn after Miller's Daredevil run

    So Arrow's tone is a knockoff of two characters instead of just one?

    Last time I checked you can't "own" a tone.

    And yet, when people think about dark and gritty comic books, it's not Captain Carrot that springs to mind, is it?

    No, it's usually Watchmen.

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    Saren

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    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    The dark tone doesn't come from Batman. It comes from Green Arrow: Year One and Longbow Hunters.

    And Longbow Hunters comes from a long list of dark and gritty late 80's comics inspired by the success of TDKR.

    And that in turn after Miller's Daredevil run

    So Arrow's tone is a knockoff of two characters instead of just one?

    Last time I checked you can't "own" a tone.

    And yet, when people think about dark and gritty comic books, it's not Captain Carrot that springs to mind, is it?

    No, it's usually Watchmen.

    So that's three comic books Arrow's appropriating now?

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    ccraft

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    #55  Edited By ccraft

    @k4tzm4n said:

    @ccraft said:

    @k4tzm4n: Oh, well I've haven't started S3 yet. I probably get around to it sooner or later.

    WHY ARE YOU READING AN ARTICLE WITH S3 SPOILERS?!? Although, I'm guessing the big developments were already spoiled for you?

    No haha, I stopped reading once you said *There's obviously spoilers in here.*

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    k4tzm4n

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    #56 k4tzm4n  Moderator

    @ccraft said:

    @k4tzm4n said:

    @ccraft said:

    @k4tzm4n: Oh, well I've haven't started S3 yet. I probably get around to it sooner or later.

    WHY ARE YOU READING AN ARTICLE WITH S3 SPOILERS?!? Although, I'm guessing the big developments were already spoiled for you?

    No haha, I stopped reading once you said *There's obviously spoilers in here.*

    Heh, okay. I'm glad I only said "the latest twist" in my initial reply to you.

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    Snape

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    #57  Edited By Snape

    Eh,don't really mind the similarities.

    I think there might be a good chance that Amanda Waller and ARGUS will be the "Big Bads" next season.

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    captain_batman_FTW

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    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    The dark tone doesn't come from Batman. It comes from Green Arrow: Year One and Longbow Hunters.

    And Longbow Hunters comes from a long list of dark and gritty late 80's comics inspired by the success of TDKR.

    And that in turn after Miller's Daredevil run

    So Arrow's tone is a knockoff of two characters instead of just one?

    Last time I checked you can't "own" a tone.

    And yet, when people think about dark and gritty comic books, it's not Captain Carrot that springs to mind, is it?

    lol

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    deactivated-5a04a566e9ae3

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    this show doodoo

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    k4tzm4n

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    #60  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

    @snape said:

    Eh,don't really mind the similarities.

    I think there might be a good chance that Amanda Waller and ARGUS will be the "Big Bads" next season.

    Yeah, I imagine they're building up her role in Ollie's past to give her a bigger role in the present. Or at least I hope so. I'd really love to see more of the Suicide Squad as well, especially since the roster has apparently changed.

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    ScouterV

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    Well, here's the problem:

    DC has decided that only Batman is profitable. And has done a fine job of giving the people Batman, so much so that they've convinced themselves that if you don't feature things that are Batman-related, people might not tune in.

    I'm not saying that's a fact, I'm just saying the fans have DC and to an extent WB for why there's less Green Arrow mythos/enemies and more Batman material. It's a shame, but one will probably have to live with until the DCCU does well, and other heroes start getting the chance to make money. Shame, cause Ollie has his own great mythos to pull from, but whatevs.

    Maybe once that happens, Ollie will lighten up. Until then, I'm just waiting for Scarecrow to make his way to town.

    And I agree with Oliver..."Green Arrow" compared to simply "Arrow" is a little lame.

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    goonage

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    I completely agree with this post. Arrow is my favorite (airing) show on TV right now, but you know something is wrong when reading about the twist from the last episode makes you feel frustrated.

    Also @k4tzm4n , I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but Bronze Tiger was killed off in the tie-in comic.

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    IndomitableRegal

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    #63  Edited By IndomitableRegal

    @brinkthemoviemyfavoritemovie: @k4tzm4n isn't wrong. I love the show, but it's my opinion that you're deluding yourself if you think the show is perfect and, in your words, "there's nothing wrong with it". The show has been criticized at times for being too dark, too brooding, and/or having too much drama. You said the ratings don't lie, but his comments were never about ratings. I love Arrow, but from the very first season, it has been drawing quite a bit from Batman. And how exactly do you know most people don't notice or care? It may not be a majority, but I'd wager it's more than a "small group of hardcore comic nerds". This isn't IDW, Image, Valiant, or Dark Horse. These character's are more well known. Teen Titans, Young Justice, a plethora of Batman shows including Batman: TAS & Batman Beyond, Justice League/Unlimited, Injustice: GAU, The DCAU movies, The Batman Trilogy, and DC as a whole have all been very successful and have featured characters like Ra's and the League, Solomon Grundy, The Royal Flush Gang, Huntress, Brother Blood, Amanda Waller, and Slade/Deathstroke. So why do you assume so few would notice, especially when the Ra's/Ollie mountain fight is so close to the Bruce/Ra's fight from Batman Begins? Even if you want to ignore all that, can you really say that the show hasn't been unfocused at time, like it's lacking any real direction, or some characters haven't acted or reacted oddly in certain situations?

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    k4tzm4n

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    #64  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

    @goonage said:

    I completely agree with this post. Arrow is my favorite (airing) show on TV right now, but you know something is wrong when reading about the twist from the last episode makes you feel frustrated.

    Also @k4tzm4n , I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but Bronze Tiger was killed off in the tie-in comic.

    Well, that's a bummer. Do you know which chapter? Guess I made a mistake not giving the digital series a second shot. Thanks for letting me know, though. I'll remove that part from the article.

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    @saren said:

    @jonny_anonymous said:

    The dark tone doesn't come from Batman. It comes from Green Arrow: Year One and Longbow Hunters.

    And Longbow Hunters comes from a long list of dark and gritty late 80's comics inspired by the success of TDKR.

    And that in turn after Miller's Daredevil run

    So Arrow's tone is a knockoff of two characters instead of just one?

    Last time I checked you can't "own" a tone.

    And yet, when people think about dark and gritty comic books, it's not Captain Carrot that springs to mind, is it?

    No, it's usually Watchmen.

    So that's three comic books Arrow's appropriating now?

    Again, no. Nobody has a monopoly on gritty storytelling. Can't tell if just trolling or...

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    MadeinBangladesh

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    YES PLEASE

    ~MiB

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    RavenVice01

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    I don't mind if arrow borrows lesser known villains and expands on them along with his own rogues but A-listers like ra's al ghul is pushing it. They should hav had lady shiva as the one in charge of the league of assassins because she has a history with black canary

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    AwesomePerson

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    Why can't Arrow take notes From the Flash...

    If you stick to the comics, you can get a really great show...

    Then again, GA doesn't have much to build from as The Flash does...

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    ccraft

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    @k4tzm4n said:

    @ccraft said:

    @k4tzm4n said:

    @ccraft said:

    @k4tzm4n: Oh, well I've haven't started S3 yet. I probably get around to it sooner or later.

    WHY ARE YOU READING AN ARTICLE WITH S3 SPOILERS?!? Although, I'm guessing the big developments were already spoiled for you?

    No haha, I stopped reading once you said *There's obviously spoilers in here.*

    Heh, okay. I'm glad I only said "the latest twist" in my initial reply to you.

    Me too! lol

    What really makes me wanna catch up with S3 is Arrow vs Flash cross over, you mentioned it in the OP that it was good and I forgot all about it.

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    Anjales_II

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    I'll never forgive Arrow for what they did with Komodo. Seriously, you wasted a villain that had the potential to carry the season as the big bad, and you just wasted him as just another villain of the week.

    Since the start, I've defended Arrow as being "not a Batman rip-off", and that they are simply using Batman as inspiration, and I was fine with it, as long as its the means to reach the Green Arrow we all know. However, I feel the show producers have become too comfortable with the Batman formula and have taken several steps back. While I did voice my concerns about the "shirtless sword fight" with Ra's, they did win me over, but after that, they went downhill in terms of crossing the line between inspiration and rip-off.

    The thing is, this isn't just a fanboy nitpick, they actually do have something strong on their hands. The entire cast is killing it with the exception of Olive Queen, and that's mainly due to his poor Batman impression. That's exactly how he's coming off, he's not the same likable badass he started as in the first two seasons, he feels as if he trying to embrace a cliche that simply doesn't fit him.

    It says a lot about the show Arrow, when the least likable character right now is the Arrow himself.

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    MuyJingo

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    #71  Edited By MuyJingo

    Beautifully said, sir.

    @frozen said:

    So many Arrow fans in denial; salt. Salt everywhere. I'm glad Ktzm finally made this.

    Interesting, that more people are willing to agree that it's Batman-esque now. Even fans of the show.

    Ehh, nope. Gregg's article here is pretty different from what you and others have been saying. No one was denying the show was inspired by Batman, and was using Batman's villains, but you and others were saying the show was outright copying and stealing. That was never the case.

    Ra's and Deathstroke facing Arrow isn't that strange at all. Deathstroke isn't primarily a Batman villain, and Ra's is, but he has also gone up against other heroes and the JL often enough hat it isn't a problem.

    Asking for Arrow to be his replacement is a different story and taking it too far though.

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    The Impersonator

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    #72  Edited By The Impersonator

    I understand that some viewers are feeling that the Arrow is more like Batman. But look how far the show has been. This show is pretty good right from the start. Yes, the third season is bit of a letdown. But I'm curious to see why Ra has decided to pick Oliver to become the next Demon's Head. Also, who says that the Bat-villains can't enter Arrow's world? There are comics when villains crossover into another hero's territory. Is it that bad? Take a look at Spider-Man. He fought Dr. Doom (FF's arch-villain) and the Kingpin (DD's arch-villain). So why not Green Arrow taking on Bat-villains?

    I liked to see where Arrow goes from here and how it ends.

    The explanation behind Oliver's recovery can be simple. Maybe, Oliver wasn't dead. Remember, the sword was pierced through the side of his chest and fell down from the cliff. The freezing air might have stopped the bleeding; otherwise, he would have been totally dead. Therefore, Katana later applied some medicinal herbs or some liquid/potion to treat the wounds.

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    Harryvine

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    "I know this article is being pretty harsh on the show, but I view it as tough love. I enjoy watching new episodes on Wednesday nights and I want nothing but the best for Oliver. I'm glad they've taken big steps to improve the supporting cast and I really hope we see even more of that in Season 4. I just hope it'll begin to feel more like his story and not remind us of Bruce Wayne's adventures."

    Don't apologize. You are great at your job, write engaging articles and it is clear that you enjoy what you do which in turn makes your work enjoyable. Please take over Gotham duties because that guy induces all the negative comments and please have CV give up on the Scott Snyder interviews. They're clearly cut and pasted each month with nothing new to add.

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    MarcosVergara14

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    #74  Edited By MarcosVergara14

    100% agree with Katzman.

    Arrow underplays Oliver's best villians in a really bad way.

    Count Vertigo, Brick, Contantine Drakon, Komodo and China White all of the wasted in Villian of the week plots.

    I still can't belive Cupid was the best handled of all of them, c'mon you had a really great chance of redemption with Vertigo 2.0 and everything he did was apply Fear Gas (Vertigo) in Laurel and Oliver.

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    RexWing

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    I think for Season 4 Arrow should do a time jump with a more light-hearted Oliver, a Black Canary that actually knows how to fight, Arsenal fighting crime on his own, and Thea as the Mia Deerdan Speedy. The show should be renamed Green Arrow and it should be a light reboot of the show that makes it closer to the comics Green Arrow and less like a wanna-be Batman show.

    This

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    wowlock

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    You know what would make the show better ? let Oliver be OLIVER QUEEN and if you want , bring up a mysterious Batman not really showing up but heard around and have Ra's deal with him instead of trying to turn Oliver into Batman like this, because it doesn't work and it feels tacked.

    Only thing that Arrow has in common with Green Arrow I know is he uses a Bow and he wears green ( and it is a very dark green, you can barely recognize it ) Other than that, if you didn't give me his name or the name of the show, I wouldn't know if he was Ollie.

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    mak13131313

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    Arrow is one of my favorite shows but I agree with you 100 percent Gregg.

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    GraniteSoldier

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    @k4tzm4n: Good read as per usual, and I agree very much. My wife and I fall into the same viewer base as you, where we will watch regardless of who's mythos they pull from.

    Having said that, like you, we also want Green Arrow related foes. Joker sounds like a lackluster and dated concept on paper, but his popularity is strong as ever. Why? Writers take the character seriously. If they did the same for Ollie's rogues then I don't see why the audience wouldn't take them seriously as well. My wife who knows nothing of Ollie outside the show has actually commented on the show being Batman with a bow. Speaking of one thing that irks me, and perhaps it simply doesn't translate as well to the screen in term of excitement is why Ollie is 'The Arrow' and 80% of the time he's fighting hand to hand. I'm sure it's because they think people find it more exciting, but I want to see some ranged duels here. Think Enemy at the Gates, perfect format for a tense, well done, ranged combat duel.

    As for tone, sure I don't it has the same lighthearted feel as the Green Arrow I know, but I always allow certain artistic liberties when going from one medium to another.

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    inferiorego

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    #79 inferiorego  Staff

    Please take over Gotham duties because that guy induces all the negative comments and please have CV give up on the Scott Snyder interviews.

    I critique a show without a direction. Don't like it? Don't read it. Now you don't have something to be angry about. I think it's far more negative to tell someone they're not fit for a job simply because you don't agree with them rather than honestly give your opinion of something and backing it up with evidence.

    wacka wacka wacka

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    comicace3

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    "You're nitpicking. Ra's al Ghul doesn't have to be just Batman's villain and he's brought other people under his wing before. Stop hating, hater."

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    FuzzyLittleRodent

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    @jonny_anonymous: dude, this is Saren we're talking about. You know as well as I do that he just wants to p*ss you off

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    blair_sean

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    They can't stop using Batman stuff, because they know Batman works and want to go for the sure-money. Every movie, cartoon, TV show will have Batman or some Bat-related character in them. This is why MARVEL will always have better movies. MARVEL trusts the material and the talent behind it. The WB/CW/DC Comics don't, and are afraid to do anything without their Batman cash-cow.

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    deathstroke52

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    #83  Edited By deathstroke52

    Good article.

    I hope they call him Green Arrow but not really be less dark, just more sarcastic.

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    saoakden

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    To me Ra's is an interesting antagonist in the Arrow series. I had hope they would use Komodo like how he was in the comics. I think he would have been an interesting antagonist with the Outsiders from Lemire's run. I like to see the Outsiders and the Longbow Hunters from Lemire's run I think that would be good. Have H.I.V.E. make an appearance and be the bad guys. They could be the antagonist for season 4. Just spitballin some ideas.

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    Harryvine

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    @inferiorego: I'm so happy you finally responded. Dude, read the comments in your own thread. Some people like the jobs they do while you clearly do not. I mean hey acting like you don't care when you do but you don't but....see? Drink a red bull and channel your inner dork through the keyboard. It's all I'm asking. You've been lazy in 2015. You're welcome for the pep talk.

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    blueninjapanther

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    I agree with this article. I loved Arrow (been there from the start), but after the last episode, I think they are definitely going in the wrong direction. It should have been like the first season, which brought many fans to like the show. Stephen Amell is great as Green Arrow and I can see him fit perfectly but Oliver shouldn't be offered to be the new leader of League of Assassins. He's very foolish to attack Ra's al Ghul head-on. He doesn't have any martial arts training so the League could of easily took him out by using the shadows considering that they should be ninjas. I would love to see Connor Hawke, Komodo, Emiko, Count Vertigo with hypnosis instead of the fear toxin that Scarecrow uses, and Roy with a bionic arm. I doubt any of these would happen but it is not impossible. Another thing that would be great is more info about John Diggle and what he can do to increase Team Arrow instead of being the dude with a handgun who hasn't done much in the season.

    I wish they can elaborate more about Oliver/Green Arrow and his rogues instead of using Batman's villains. Its a great show but I feel like this show is turning into a Batman show instead of what it is intend to be. It's like they are just created Arrow and using Batman's mythos as an excuse or reason that they can't use Batman considering that he's off limits. They should also add a little more fixation of villans like Cheshire, Electrocutioner, Junior Diaz, Midas, and Onomatopoeia.

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    bigcimmerian

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    Can anybody tell me 10 greatest Green Arrow villains? Don't say Deadshot, Bronze Tiger or Deathstroke please.

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    bobthened

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    You're wrong. This is literally only a problem with a relatively small group of hardcore comic nerds. The show is excellent and there's nothing wrong with it - the ratings don't lie.

    the problem is that If they want to make a show with batman stories, make it about batman.

    or alternatively use some of green arrow's great storylines.

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    bloggerboy

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    Arrow doesn't just borrow Batman villains, it borrows entire scenes from Nolan's Batman. There was a dinner scene where Oliver jokingly comments on the Arrow just like in BB. There was the hero staring at a news footage of terrorists making demands just like in The Dark Knight. And many more small things that illustrate hack writing.

    It doesn't help that characters like Felicity are character arctypes (clever/witty nerd computer hackers) we've seen a million times on shows like Buffy, 24 and Smallville.

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    kilowog52

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    I really don't mind the inclusion of the Bat-characters. But giving Ollie Bruce's story from the comics felt weird. It is taking it a bit too far. I'm sure if the show was allowed to use Batman, it would have played out differently, but the whole point of the show is to push DC comics without using Batman himself. A lot of people are saying CW is creating a Trinity with Ollie taking Bruce's place and Barry taking Kal's/Clark's. That really probably is a good way to put it. As for Ollie's personality, they didn't want to go with the one he had in the comics. I'm sure they could have, but they chose not to. I'm sure a lot of this comparing Arrow to Batman comes from them giving Ollie a hurting brooding personality when DC already has a flagship character with such a personality, combined with the inclusion of villains from that character's rogues gallery. Show Ollie's personality isn't an exact clone of Bruce's and his M.O. and back story are quite different. But when GA was originally created in the Golden Age, wasn't he really just the same thing as Batman except he fought crime with a bow and trick arrows.

    Also when you, @k4tzm4n, talk about how Ollie hasn't earned this level of respect from Ra's, I agree, but see the situation differently. You also mentioned that Ra's shouldn't be in any hurry to be replaced. The way I see it is that Ra's sees Oliver's potential and has therefore selected him for decades of rigorous training under Ra's himself in order to potentially succeed Ra's. I have also noticed that this show has completely stripped Ra's of his iconic fear of death from the comics, and given it to Malcolm Merlyn. This may explain why Merlyn was not considered.

    Also @k4tzm4n, the example you gave of Bane possibly being next season's villain, clearly illustrated to me that this does need to stop at some point. Ra's is such an immense figure in that he leads the League of Assassins, so he's okay. But despite the fact that Bane has proven to be more than a challenge for Batman, and the whole Santa Prisca story, he doesn't have the presence throughout the entire DCU that Ra's does, and when you combine that with the fact that he is such a Batman-centric villian, that makes him not work here. Firefly worked because he was a relatively minor villain. However, Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Two-Face, etc. would not work.

    I wouldn't at all mind if Lady Shiva appeared, and I'm on the fence about David Cain and Cassandra Cain. Again @k4tzm4n Onomatopoeia would be good, as would your idea about Drakon (though I'm not familiar with that character) but I'm pretty sure that's where The Flash is going with Weather Wizard.

    I find this Damien Dahrk idea rather likely. I was hoping that whole HIVE plot thread wouldn't be discarded. Using "Damian Dark" as a code for Damian Wayne sounds really unlikely. It would be more likely that it was an amalgamation of Damian Wayne and Ebeneezer Dark. And if Emiko did appear, she couldn't be the daughter of Robert Queen and Shado like in the comics because of Shado's established history in the show already. However, it wouldn't be too bad if she was made the daughter of Robert Queen and Isabel Rochev, would it?

    I also think it would be great if they brought in Richard Dragon, the Question, Cheshire, and other characters from throughout the DCU. They already did Katana, after all. And I said it after the first season, but now that he's no longer on the island during the flashbacks, it won't work until they're back on the island, but in the island flashbacks, they should do an Aquaman villain. The Scavenger, the Fisherman, or Black Manta would be good.

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    greenarrowfan12

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    Can anybody tell me 10 greatest Green Arrow villains? Don't say Deadshot, Bronze Tiger or Deathstroke please.

    1 count vertigo

    2 merlyn

    3 brick

    4 Onomatopoeia

    5 komodo

    6 china white

    7 clock king

    8 Constantine Drakon

    9 rainbow archer

    10 bates

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    amazing_webhead

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    It's ironic, given how in his early years Green Arrow was a lot like Batman. He even had a Arrow-Cave (I know, I know, Harley suggested a much better name)

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    savage5252

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    #93  Edited By savage5252

    Ok look I admit, the Batman influences are starting to pile up, especially with season 3 introducing Ra's Al Ghul. But the thing you people seem to keep forgetting is that Batman and Green Arrow are very similar characters! They have similar motivations for doing what they do, they take in strays, have complicated love lives, were founding members of the justice league, and have a lot of villains in common and all of them have appeared on arrow; Deathstroke, Deadshot + Suicide Sqaud, waller, even Merlyn has appeared in a couple of batman issues here and there, so far the only character that is out of place in my book is the Huntress, but her appearance did add something to Oliver's personality and made him question his desire for brutal justice which lead to his heroic change in season 2. And another thing, with the new batman v superman film on the way and Gotham showing us batman's origin (and screwing it up big time I might add) its nice to see some familiar batman characters in a different setting interacting with a different albeit similar style of dark avenger. So all in all, yeah the batman similarities are there but they don't define the show entirely if anything it makes the Arrow a good combination of Green Arrow and Batman, so quit whining and just enjoy the show for what it is, rather than what you'd like it to be.

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    Impervious

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    Yeah, I totally agree that Drakon and Onomatopeia should get major roles next season, maybe they could bring Richard Diaz in

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    GrenadeFlow

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    I very much agree with this

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    Saint_Sophie

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    Well.. given how DC's choosing to go with their tv and movies, I'm pretty sure Dark Knight/Arrow is here to stay.

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    GreenLanternDeadpool

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    Katzman speaks the truth! I wan't Green Arrow, not a poor man's Dark Knight.

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    dernman

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    #98  Edited By dernman

    @k4tzm4n

    http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/39001/4440863-damian.jpg

    Why are you trying to turn me into a shipper?...........Damiko

    Seriously though and forget the shipping but can you imagine what it would be like if they ran into each other? I'm talking purely comics of course.

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    the_comebacks

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    I agree with the premise of the article. And could we get the real Count Vertigo? I feel like he could be a strong credible threat. I originally liked the vertigo drug angle, but we don't have a real menacing Vertigo.

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    mark15

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    Why don't the writers create some of their own villains instead of borrowing Batman's or treating Oliver's poorly. Can't wait for the Supergirl show to see them do Kara and her rouges gallery right!...right?

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