"Yeah, but when you are going up against a guy with a gun, you want a gun yourself, which one of many reasons why Scott's approach to the Purifier is all wrong. I mean, the entire fact that "no one can know" indicates that maybe he is not making the most rational decisions...
"

*chuckle*

Actually, I theorize Emma maybe the Skrull and controlling Scott's mind.

"Even only thinking he was sending a team up against the Purifiers, X-Force is desperately undergunned. And if what Scott is doing is so right, is the best thing for everyone, why does he need plausible deniability?
"

Actually, the New X-Men took on the Purfiers and got their butt's beaten, Hellion was almost killed, and they ran away with their tail tucked between their legs as fast as Pixie's blind teleport could carry them (*ahem*).  Yes, they didn't know that the Purifiers had Deathstrike and the Reavers in reserve, just as Cyclops does not know what kind of superbeings the Purifiers may have in reserve now and is sending in a very low powered team into a blind situation.

Yes, Charles did some shady things he hid from the X-men in the past, and most people (X-Men and fans) generally feel these things were morally bad and outright mistakes. Scott did, hence the reason kicked Charles out of the X-Men. So not only is Scott being stupid, he's being a big fat hypocrite.

So if what Scott's is doing the right thing to do, it if it is so morally just and practically expedient, why must he hide it...not from the public (which is why vigilante's wear a mask), but from his own people? I mean, if it comes out the any X-Team is behind behind this, it's not like the authorities, the public, and the Purifiers are just going to go after X-Force and ignore the rest of the X-Men. Don't the rest of the X-Men have a right to know what they may be targeted for?

And there is a LARGE difference between being a vigilante and creating an black ops assassination squad.

Why shouldn't the authorities go after people who had no part in it ? so if there's a party at a frathouse and a small number of the fratmembers do something illegal the authorities are going to nail the entire house for it? The public and Purifiers are going to target the X-team as a whole but when has that ever been different, really..  The X-men as a whole has always been targeted and that was before they did anything to be considered as such.

The New X-men got their butts beaten by the Reavers not the Purifiers, different variables different outcome. Again there was no existing link between Purifiers and Reavers so there was no reason for Nori to be aware of that variable especially considering that Scott had told her to wait and she went in anyway which is why Rictors cover was blown otherwise Scott would still have his man on the inside. placing another mole would now benear impossible. So he has to do things the way he is now.
Scott only ordered X-23 to eliminate Riseman. X-23 is not X-force but a part of it.

Scott kicked Xavier out the first time not only for his keeping secrets they  should have come to accept this from him over the years but Xavier had done and gone too far. just to name a few the Vulcan situation, the island itself, Magnus not being dead, going in hidding after loosing his powers letting the others think he was in fact dead, again. The surpression and subsequent experimentation on the Enity known as Danger was pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back.

Scott made a decision based on what he knew and it was/seemed like a good decision at the time. We can say different because we know more than he does. Had he known what we do he wouldn't have send that team or may have even taken another approach on the situation.

I stopped reading after about the 8th post, but I'm surprised based on most of the reception it seems the book has gotten, as I've heard/read nothing but bad things about this book. I just read the most recent post actually, so I'm glad it seems like someone is viewing this critically enough. A lot of people have remarked upon all the X-Men being "made" into Wolverine essentially with this book, and while (to be honest) I haven't read it, nor am I a hardcore reader of X-titles, it seems rather prudent based on the themes I know the book is dealing with. That's obviously just a commercialization move, and I have to agree that I think it's pretty saddening that Marvel doesn't think they can sell the X-Men with their own natural characterizations nowadays.

Well unfortunately it is now illegal for the X-Men to operate the way they normally would. Scott keeps X-Force a secret for plausible deniability. He can blame it all on Wolverine if it blows up in his face. I think it's cool that Marvel was willing to take a risk and create a book where certain X-Men have to face moral dilemmas and overcome personal problems that they would probably never be faced with normally. You didn't read the thread, so I'll spell it out for you, ImbecileSage: No one has been "turned into Wolverine." In fact, Wolverine is having a hard time leading the team because they want to do things their own way, even X-23, who you could argue IS Wolverine. Warpath has always been headstrong, and Rahne's recent character development has had her on this road for some time now. That's why she left X-Factor.

"Well unfortunately it is now illegal for the X-Men to operate the way they normally would. Scott keeps X-Force a secret for plausible deniability. He can blame it all on Wolverine if it blows up in his face. I think it's cool that Marvel was willing to take a risk and create a book where certain X-Men have to face moral dilemmas and overcome personal problems that they would probably never be faced with normally. You didn't read the thread, so I'll spell it out for you, ImbecileSage: No one has been "turned into Wolverine." In fact, Wolverine is having a hard time leading the team because they want to do things their own way, even X-23, who you could argue IS Wolverine. Warpath has always been headstrong, and Rahne's recent character development has had her on this road for some time now. That's why she left X-Factor.

I personally am enjoying X-Force, and think it's a more dynamic book than people are giving it credit for. Also: it's less than 6 issues into the series. A lot of people just don't like the premise, and that's fine, they don't have to read it. Other people insist on putting the book down rather than giving it a chance to complete a single story arc, so, their loss.

"

Has anyone picked up X-factor #32? While I am very aware that this is a X-force thread the current topic of that book is utterly fitting.

A few post ago there were a few rather adamant posts in regards to X-force being a terrorist cell whereas X-Factor was not, one of the reasons being that they were not hauled in to sign on for the Initiative because they were already under Val's 'command' I am of course paraphrasing but you get the gist.
So to my delightful surprise it becomes clear while I read the book that X-factor had alreadyturneddown both Val and USA a.k.a. UnitedStark Army on a prior occasion. Moreover both Monet and Madrox were vehemently against becoming Uncle Sam Stooges or the strong-arm tactics the government employs that rub them the wrong way . Her offers are witness protection program separately or  the Initiative/O.N.E. she goes as far as to really get into their face which makes me wonder if they were already a government approved team what is the point of this..... I guess they weren't approved or sanctioned or whatever... sure they were offered but it got shot down and guess what it got shut down again that is till Val found Madrox later and pretty much used physical force to assert their new relationship. of course it remains to be seen if Jamie actually allows her too strong arm him as that is where the issue ended.

BTW if some of you perceive me to be gloating, I just want to affirm that I am merely pointing out a statement that implied that X-factor was sanctioned or approved to be incorrect.

I already pointed out that that was incorrect. On this page, no less.

Oddly, by the end of that issue, we see that Val is not taking "No" for an answer. Which means they did have some kind of gov't license and protection. I mean really guys, everyone knew where they were, everyone knew their stance on the SHRA, if Tony wanted to reel them in, they would have been reeled in. So why weren't they? 

It also does nothing to discount the notion that X-Force is a group who's murderous intent put them more in line with terrorist groups than superhero groups. Like X-Factor, who purpose is still to help people, despite their attempt to go underground.

by 'strong arming"  them how very idk.

fact of the matter is that they weren't Tony couldn't have reeled them in if he wanted to but to mess with X-factor would have been to mess with the X-men and both Scott and Emma had made it clear that if they are forced to pick a side they go anti and Tony isn't stuppid enough to push that. as for X-factor the firepower that val took with her proves that they weren't on the payroll.

Well, yeah.  After they had formally rejected her offer and skipped town, but before? Payroll? No, but had some leeway and protection from the local law enforcement, as well as the Initiative? Yeah, they did.

And Tony has all of S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Avengers at his disposal, he could have shoved them into the Initiative at any time. So why didn't he? X-Factor is not the X-Men, they did pick a side, and rather loudly...and no one came after them.

And again, in purpose X-Force is far more like a terrorist group than X-Factor is.

X-Factor acts in direct opposition to the SHRA. Val Cooper ran interference for them for a while for old time's sake because she knew Madrox wouldn't join the Initiative. I feel like I'm repeating myself...

Uhm...Delta Force is part of the U.S. Army. If the group is part of an established, recognized government, by defintion they are not a terrorist group. Blackwater are mercenaries, also by defintion not a terrorist group as they are employed by a recognized government.

That's why Delta Force is not a terrorist group ,and the MLF and Brotherhood are. Just as X-Force definitely leaning that way. They are not out to save lives and help people, they are out to kill enemies. The only thing to fulfill the defintion of "terrorist" is for them to hit a civilian target.

And "Referred to as" does not mean the X-Men fulfilled the defintion. The X-men used to be about saving lives, X-Force is about killing people.

And trust me, Marvel isn't getting any of my money for that piece of crap. When they ignored my request to cancel my New X-men subscription and automatically switched me over, my LCBS took the issues I got in trade.

It may not be Kyle and Yost intent, but that is what they have written and I find it very amusing that the same people who are the most vociferous hater of terrorism are fans of a comic book about what amounts to terrorism. It is the sad, natural end result of the "deconstruction of heroes" zeitgeist that has ruled our culture for the last couple decades:

People don't know what heroes or heroism is anymore.

"Might makes right" has become our moral compass.

Your definition of a "terrorist group" probably isn't the same as mine, so "by definition" doesn't really help. Do you think the innocent civilians Blackwater opened fire on might consider them a terrorist group?

Were they in the pay of a recognized government? Then no, they were not a terrorist group, they were an arm of that government.

Just as the Hessians were not a terrorist group during the American Revolution, but acted as an arm of the British Government. We don't call the Hessian terrorists, we call them mercenaries. (Which is actually a lot more insulting).

That's the difference between "mercenaries" and "terrorists". Mercenaries act for pay. Terrorists act for a cause. Terrorists can employ mercenary forces, but they are still not the same thing. And if mercenaries are in the employ of an established government, they are mercenaries in the employ of an established government. If mercenaries and terrorist were the same thing, they wouldn't have different names.

(Actually, I have run into a surprising number of people lately who don't seem to know what "mercenary" means.)

Again, your definition of terrorism seems to differ from mine somewhat. Governments and government agencies are capable of, and do indeed practice terrorism on a regular basis. Just because they are government employees doesn't mean they aren't participating in acts of terrorism. I don't see this conversation going anywhere productive, so these are my last thoughts on the matter.

Are you in your 80s or something? I realize that we may not be the next Greatest Generation" but saying people don't know what heroes or heroism is anymore makes you sound ridiculous. I feel like it's a line from some bad action movie.

"

"Yeah, but when you are going up against a guy with a gun, you want a gun yourself, which one of many reasons why Scott's approach to the Purifier is all wrong. I mean, the entire fact that "no one can know" indicates that maybe he is not making the most rational decisions...
"

"Korg said:

Are you in your 80s or something? I realize that we may not be the next Greatest Generation" but saying people don't know what heroes or heroism is anymore makes you sound ridiculous. I feel like it's a line from some bad action movie.

"

No, just an older generation (Gen X)  raised on a significantly different kind of fiction, different comic books. If one is selling X-Force as a "superhero group", the defintion of "hero" has changed significantly.

I think that is why Capt America was killed off, they wanted to point out the changing defintion of "Hero" in the M.U.
"

Now back to my quote, Pania, my Fire-fighter friend and his dad both showed me how to stop a guy who is holding a gun to you, there are many ways to stop a guy with a guy either with hand combat by punching a nerve and dislocating the wrist and shoulder, or by simply throwing  a knife in his upper chest close to the shoulder.

Korg equated Delta force to X-Force, which simply does not work as Delta Force is part of the U.S. Army, whether or not what they do is ethical is up to some debate, but it is legal as far as U.S. law goes. X-Force are not mercenaries either, as they do not fight for pay.

No, saving people and killing enemies are not the same thing. The fact that you think that it is is extremely disappointing.

And killing Cap at the end of Civil War, which was a huge political statement in and of itself, was also a social/political statement: America's innocence and righteousness is gone, and Cap's moral absolutism had no place in this Tony's Sophist, might makes right, "New World Order". JMS has also made a statement about the changing defintion of "hero" in the M.U. in Thor #3, when Thor visited New Orleans and wondered why no superheo was there to help.

That's the difference between saving people and killing enemies.

>"So the question then becomes did he save whomever from the gunmen by throwing the knife or did he commit murder?"<

In the scenario described, the assailant was wounded, not dead. Contrary to what the TV says, even gunshot wounds in the shoulder are rarely fatal.

X-force is a black ops group as stated in the Marvel advertisement, ]
They do not get paid so them being Mercenaries is out of the question.
They are not not terroists because they are not trying to cause terror just stop a terroist cell.

It seems to me the actions of the X-force are kinda blurry, like in the gray area which makes us think "Are they Mercenaries? or are they Terroists?