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    X-Men

    Team » X-Men appears in 13410 issues.

    The X-Men are a superhero team of mutants founded by Professor Charles Xavier. They are dedicated to helping fellow mutants and sworn to protect a world that fears and hates them.

    Should the X-MEN join the MCU? And people don't realize the consequences of them reverting.

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    william300

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    So, with X-MEN: Apocalypse being such a dissapointment people are once again demanding that the X-MEN revert to Marvel. Now there's two things I wanted to bring up, 1: whether or not the X-MEN should join the MCU, and 2: The consequences of the X-MEN going back to Marvel.

    Now let's say the X-MEN reverted to Marvel, should they be added to the MCU or should Marvel create a separate film universe for them? I think retconning them into the MCU would be disastrous, I think the whole thing would fall apart if they tried that. Some people have suggested that they be added another way, the providing suggestion is to have the x-gene created by the government like in the Ultimate universe, but I think that would be a mistake as it would make it to where you can't use older mutants like Apocalypse, and I think it would mess up the human/mutant dynamics sense mutants are supposed to be be a natural form of evolution not a lab experiment gone wrong. Hence I think that if Marvel gets the X-MEN back, they should created a Mutant Cinematic Universe instead of adding them to the MCU.

    Now, onto the consequences that would come about if Marvel got the X-MEN back (which people seem to be ignoring). First off, we would never see Deadpool as he should be ever again, nor would we see Wolverine as he should be either. People seem to forget that Marvel is owned by Disney, and Disney would never allow Marvel to make a R rated film. And the truth is the X-MEN would never be as dark as they should be. I'm not saying the films wouldn't be good, but I don't know if Marvel would do the themes of racism and equality properly.

    Anyways, what do you think?

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    cattlebattle

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    Wat are yoo DUm?!! Fox is da poopy movie!! MArvel so mooch better!!

    I want to see da Wolverine make the jokes and do the dancing!!

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    Immolation

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    Most people that say the X-Men need to be in the MCU act like they just want to see Wolverine interact with the Avengers. Then there are also a few people that for some reason think that "Marvel does their charecters right." The MCU charecters that I have read have been altered just as much as the X-Men.

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    Epyon007

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    most people complain about not enough mutants getting the spotlight. What do you think would happen if they moved back to Marvel? It'd be nothing but wolverine and deadpool cracking jokes. You could kiss any of the other characters goodbye.

    Fortunately the whole talk is pointless because contrary to popular belief, Fox makes money off the X-Men and there is little reason to sell the rights back to Marvel.

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    Koays

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    #5 Koays  Online

    Lol I'm sorry...but Magneto and Xavier (both 1 and 2.0) are better more accurate characters then Captain America, Thor or Vision. And are actually fleshed out with real personality.

    The only time an MCU movie followed up on character development was Ironman 3....oh wait, his PTSD was solved by the end and the movie was ignored otherwise.

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    RabumAlal

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    Apoc is such a disappointment because? Gotta love the MCU love on this site.

    (jk, I love the MCU as well. X-Men is great as well and the movie was fun)

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    PeterParkerJr

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    Obviously they should go the MCU. They should come home to Marvel. FOX can't do them right and they need to stop holding the X-Men hostage. Their movies suck. They're no fun. Marvel Studios is the best at absolutely everything. They would actually do them justice and give us comic accurate costumes. They would focus on other characters besides Wolverine.

    In Marvel we Trust. Praise be to them. It is right to give them thanks and praise.

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    Koays

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    #8 Koays  Online

    Obviously they should go the MCU. They should come home to Marvel. FOX can't do them right and they need to stop holding the X-Men hostage. Their movies suck. They're no fun. Marvel Studios is the best at absolutely everything. They would actually do them justice and give us comic accurate costumes. They would focus on other characters besides Wolverine.

    In Marvel we Trust. Praise be to them. It is right to give them thanks and praise.

    Lol I read this and see the fox studios slowly catching ablaze while a silhouette of a giant "mouse-like-creatures" laughs in the background with his magical kingdom

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    PeterParkerJr

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    @koays said:
    @peterparkerjr said:

    Obviously they should go the MCU. They should come home to Marvel. FOX can't do them right and they need to stop holding the X-Men hostage. Their movies suck. They're no fun. Marvel Studios is the best at absolutely everything. They would actually do them justice and give us comic accurate costumes. They would focus on other characters besides Wolverine.

    In Marvel we Trust. Praise be to them. It is right to give them thanks and praise.

    Lol I read this and see the fox studios slowly catching ablaze while a silhouette of a giant "mouse-like-creatures" laughs in the background with his magical kingdom

    All the while, singing that Mickey Mouse cadence from the end of Full Metal Jacket, spray painting Marvel Studios NWO style all over the place.

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    christianrapper

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    @koays said:

    Lol I'm sorry...but Magneto and Xavier (both 1 and 2.0) are better more accurate characters then Captain America, Thor or Vision. And are actually fleshed out with real personality.

    The only time an MCU movie followed up on character development was Ironman 3....oh wait, his PTSD was solved by the end and the movie was ignored otherwise.

    you are calling magneto and charles fleshed out? they have been doing the same thing since the beginning of the movies.

    charles "the humans are good. they can be saved. we can trust them."

    magneto "we must destroy the humans. they will never trust us"

    not to mention magneto always start out as good or neutral and then he does something in the middle and kills THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of humans. however, for some reason magneto gains a conscious and turns good again and all is magically forgiven. the movie just wants everyone to forget about the hundreds of thousands of people that he slaughtered.

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    darkdetective27

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    My biggest reason against the X-Men joining the MCU is that the human hating mutants angle wouldnt work as well. It doesnt make sense having people celebrate on type of superhuman and hate and discriminate against a different type of superhuman. Sure you could say that its the way it is in the comics, but I never thought it made much sense there either except in certain instances. One of my favorite parts of the X-Men is how it mirrors the fight for civil rights and many of the strongest stories the X-Men deal with are those involving prejudice and acceptance. It works better seperate.

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    Invain

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    Obviously they should go the MCU. They should come home to Marvel. FOX can't do them right and they need to stop holding the X-Men hostage. Their movies suck. They're no fun. Marvel Studios is the best at absolutely everything. They would actually do them justice and give us comic accurate costumes. They would focus on other characters besides Wolverine.

    In Marvel we Trust. Praise be to them. It is right to give them thanks and praise.

    No Caption Provided

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    Takeshi57

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    #13  Edited By Takeshi57
    @koays said:

    Lol I'm sorry...but Magneto and Xavier (both 1 and 2.0) are better more accurate characters then Captain America, Thor or Vision. And are actually fleshed out with real personality.

    The only time an MCU movie followed up on character development was Ironman 3....oh wait, his PTSD was solved by the end and the movie was ignored otherwise.

    I didn't like Iron Man 3, because Stark didn't separate his armor and give them to the business people falling from the plane. It was brought up that his armor could separate, so why no payoff?! Seriously, a ring of people and Stark has to save them all on his own? It would have taken less time if they had a piece of his suit each.

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    Koays

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    #14  Edited By Koays  Online

    @christianrapper: Wow so Xavier tries to save the humans and magneto kills thousands only to be forgiven and become a good guy repeatedly...that's not accurate to the source material at all....

    Then let's look at Xavier from Days of Future past....who has been mentally scarred from the abandonment and failure of what he and Magneto had tried to build together. Having self doubt and fears as well as reexperiencing the trauma associated with developing his powers. Only to finally by the end be built into the beginnings of the man he sees he will become. Then in Apocalypse after 3 movies of having a philosophy that was only vaguely against violence, he gives the world the message "Those with strength, protect those without" which is THE most Xavier thing that could be said by any incarnation of the character.

    His relationship with Magneto despite lacking the exact context of their comic counterparts is the Exact same on a subtext level. And their older counterparts show a version of what the comic characters are at the height of their individual beliefs. Mentors, leaders, rival philosophers, both stuck in their ways but always ready to join forces when a greater threat arises even if they want to handle it in different t ways

    Not a single MCU character can come.close to being dissected to that level. Hell I'm not even sure where Cap got all his milliltary training and fighting skills.

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    Invain

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    @koays said:

    Hell I'm not even sure where Cap got all his milliltary training and fighting skills.

    It came with the costume.

    This is why everyone says the X-Men need costumes!!!

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    Koays

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    #16 Koays  Online

    @takeshi57: lol same thing... Or at least have the armor he was working on use some of the parts of his other suits. Show that the whole time he was doing it he was struggling with PTSD in the suburbs the same OCD coping mechanism that made him build all the suits was still in effect.

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    christianrapper

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    @koays said:

    @christianrapper: Wow so Xavier tries to save the humans and magneto kills thousands only to be forgiven and become a good guy repeatedly...that's not accurate to the source material at all....

    Then let's look at Xavier from Days of Future past....who has been mentally scarred from the abandonment and failure of what he and Magneto had tried to build together. Having self doubt and fears as well as reexperiencing the trauma associated with developing his powers. Only to finally by the end be built into the beginnings of the man he sees he will become. Then in Apocalypse after 3 movies of having a philosophy that was only vaguely against violence, he gives the world the message "Those with strength, protect those without" which is THE most Xavier thing that could be said by any incarnation of the character.

    His relationship with Magneto despite lacking the exact context of their comic counterparts is the Exact same on a subtext level. And their older counterparts show a version of what the comic characters are at the height of their individual beliefs. Mentors, leaders, rival philosophers, both stuck in their ways but always ready to join forces when a greater threat arises even if they want to handle it in different t ways

    Not a single MCU character can come.close to being dissected to that level. Hell I'm not even sure where Cap got all his milliltary training and fighting skills.

    the mcu is as true to the characters as the x men. i don't know why some of you choose to do this xmen vs marvel thing. the xmen movies have the same jokey tone as the mcu movies. dofp and apocalypse were full of jokes. also, the quips are true to the characters that's all they do in the comics. they make jokes all the time. they make jokes when fighting villains in the comics. the heroes make jokes when they are talking among other heroes. these movies have the same tone. they can fit seamlessly with each other. heck, wolverine or some other mutant can appear in a mcu movie without some big explanation. they don't need to reboot anything except quicksilver. that can be explained, too.

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    Koays

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    #18 Koays  Online

    @christianrapper: Lol we're turning it into an "X-Men vs Marvel" thing, because there is a VERY strong possibility that if Marvel received the rights they would choose to reboot the series rather then combine them. In which case we have to ask ourselves as fans "Would a potential MCU style X-Men movie be superior to the current FOX product?"

    No one is saying that you can't like both or can't enjoy one more then the others. But it's everyone expressing why they would or would not like certain things associated with the MCU included in their X-Men movies, and then discussing which critiques about MCU and FOX's products are valid.

    SO, if you say Thor and Cap and Tony making jokes while fighting is accurate to the characters in comics then I say sure. But I counter argue that the entire movie being built around jokes and whitty exchanges as opposed to drama and character development is against how most popular and interesting X-Men comics and stories are told. Which works better with FOX because of how their movies have carried development from one movie to the next, as opposed to the MCU, which builds on events but doesn't grow their characters as much.

    Rogues growth in X-2 is designed to show how far she's come from X-1. The teams weakness in X-3 is built on the emotional states following the losses of X-2. The Wolverine is entirely built on Wolverines mind state following X-3. Xavier is a broken man following First Class in DOFP, and Magneto and Mystique are both struggling with how the world sees them and what they want to become after DOFP.

    This level of depth isn't present in the MCU so it's hard to say that it would be present in a MCU X-Men film. Most of the people who want it seem to just want a flashy cartoon...when even X-Men TAS was deeper in it's individual arcs then the MCU is in it's phases.

    @invain said:
    @koays said:

    Hell I'm not even sure where Cap got all his milliltary training and fighting skills.

    It came with the costume.

    This is why everyone says the X-Men need costumes!!!

    Lol...clearly i missed the obvious power of the costume. I take my whole critique back

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    Koays

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    #19  Edited By Koays  Online

    @koays said:
    @peterparkerjr said:

    Obviously they should go the MCU. They should come home to Marvel. FOX can't do them right and they need to stop holding the X-Men hostage. Their movies suck. They're no fun. Marvel Studios is the best at absolutely everything. They would actually do them justice and give us comic accurate costumes. They would focus on other characters besides Wolverine.

    In Marvel we Trust. Praise be to them. It is right to give them thanks and praise.

    Lol I read this and see the fox studios slowly catching ablaze while a silhouette of a giant "mouse-like-creatures" laughs in the background with his magical kingdom

    All the while, singing that Mickey Mouse cadence from the end of Full Metal Jacket, spray painting Marvel Studios NWO style all over the place.

    No Caption Provided

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    PeterParkerJr

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    @invain said:
    @peterparkerjr said:

    Obviously they should go the MCU. They should come home to Marvel. FOX can't do them right and they need to stop holding the X-Men hostage. Their movies suck. They're no fun. Marvel Studios is the best at absolutely everything. They would actually do them justice and give us comic accurate costumes. They would focus on other characters besides Wolverine.

    In Marvel we Trust. Praise be to them. It is right to give them thanks and praise.

    No Caption Provided

    No Caption Provided
    @koays said:
    @peterparkerjr said:
    @koays said:
    @peterparkerjr said:

    Obviously they should go the MCU. They should come home to Marvel. FOX can't do them right and they need to stop holding the X-Men hostage. Their movies suck. They're no fun. Marvel Studios is the best at absolutely everything. They would actually do them justice and give us comic accurate costumes. They would focus on other characters besides Wolverine.

    In Marvel we Trust. Praise be to them. It is right to give them thanks and praise.

    Lol I read this and see the fox studios slowly catching ablaze while a silhouette of a giant "mouse-like-creatures" laughs in the background with his magical kingdom

    All the while, singing that Mickey Mouse cadence from the end of Full Metal Jacket, spray painting Marvel Studios NWO style all over the place.

    No Caption Provided

    LMAO! Love that episode, by the way.

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    O-Face

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    @koays said:

    Lol I'm sorry...but Magneto and Xavier (both 1 and 2.0) are better more accurate characters then Captain America, Thor or Vision. And are actually fleshed out with real personality.

    The only time an MCU movie followed up on character development was Ironman 3....oh wait, his PTSD was solved by the end and the movie was ignored otherwise.

    you are calling magneto and charles fleshed out? they have been doing the same thing since the beginning of the movies.

    charles "the humans are good. they can be saved. we can trust them."

    magneto "we must destroy the humans. they will never trust us"

    not to mention magneto always start out as good or neutral and then he does something in the middle and kills THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of humans. however, for some reason magneto gains a conscious and turns good again and all is magically forgiven. the movie just wants everyone to forget about the hundreds of thousands of people that he slaughtered.

    You seem like one of those guys that didn't catch the fact that Apoc was using superhuman persuasion on them. Like how Angel was brainwashed and broke free of Apoc's hold through the power of friendship. Just following source material is all.

    And weren't meant to forget as Magneto stated that anti-mutant hysteria will rise after that event.

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    christianrapper

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    #22  Edited By christianrapper

    @darkdetective27 said:

    My biggest reason against the X-Men joining the MCU is that the human hating mutants angle wouldnt work as well. It doesnt make sense having people celebrate on type of superhuman and hate and discriminate against a different type of superhuman. Sure you could say that its the way it is in the comics, but I never thought it made much sense there either except in certain instances. One of my favorite parts of the X-Men is how it mirrors the fight for civil rights and many of the strongest stories the X-Men deal with are those involving prejudice and acceptance. It works better seperate.

    they do it in the comics. that is just dumb to me. what's the difference between spiderman and wolverine? they both are mutated humans. peter just started out as human. marvel still hasn't done a good job of explaining why people will love thor who is a literal god or at least an alien but hate people like wovie and xavier. there is no need to be separate. they will be just doing what they do in the comics in the mcu. it will even go with their current theme since people are blaming the mcu heroes for all the destruction that happened under their watch.

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    Koays

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    #24 Koays  Online


    dofp and xmen apocalypse had the same tone as the mcu movies. the original trilogy wasn't as humorous, but the last 2 were carbon copies of the mcu. that is not a bad thing to me. it goes with the characters portrayals in the comics.

    how?

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    christianrapper

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    #25  Edited By christianrapper
    @koays said:

    @christianrapper: Lol we're turning it into an "X-Men vs Marvel" thing, because there is a VERY strong possibility that if Marvel received the rights they would choose to reboot the series rather then combine them. In which case we have to ask ourselves as fans "Would a potential MCU style X-Men movie be superior to the current FOX product?"

    No one is saying that you can't like both or can't enjoy one more then the others. But it's everyone expressing why they would or would not like certain things associated with the MCU included in their X-Men movies, and then discussing which critiques about MCU and FOX's products are valid.

    SO, if you say Thor and Cap and Tony making jokes while fighting is accurate to the characters in comics then I say sure. But I counter argue that the entire movie being built around jokes and whitty exchanges as opposed to drama and character development is against how most popular and interesting X-Men comics and stories are told. Which works better with FOX because of how their movies have carried development from one movie to the next, as opposed to the MCU, which builds on events but doesn't grow their characters as much.

    Rogues growth in X-2 is designed to show how far she's come from X-1. The teams weakness in X-3 is built on the emotional states following the losses of X-2. The Wolverine is entirely built on Wolverines mind state following X-3. Xavier is a broken man following First Class in DOFP, and Magneto and Mystique are both struggling with how the world sees them and what they want to become after DOFP.

    This level of depth isn't present in the MCU so it's hard to say that it would be present in a MCU X-Men film. Most of the people who want it seem to just want a flashy cartoon...when even X-Men TAS was deeper in it's individual arcs then the MCU is in it's phases.

    dofp and xmen apocalypse had the same tone as the mcu movies. the original trilogy wasn't as humorous, but the last 2 were carbon copies of the mcu. that is not a bad thing to me. it goes with the characters portrayals in the comics. actually to me the mcu movies did a better job of fleshing out their characters to me. civil war had way more characters and they did a much better job of showing each characters motivation than the xmen did in apocalypse. storm is one of the most popular characters and she hardly got any screen time at all. angel's motivation for joining the horsemen was kind of a mystery. he just left a situation where he was just a tool and he joined another one? why the heck did storm join him?

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    christianrapper

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    #26  Edited By christianrapper

    @koays said:
    @christianrapper said:

    dofp and xmen apocalypse had the same tone as the mcu movies. the original trilogy wasn't as humorous, but the last 2 were carbon copies of the mcu. that is not a bad thing to me. it goes with the characters portrayals in the comics.

    how?

    they had the same tone and had jokes throughout the movie.

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    dernman

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    I don't think X-Men should be in the currant MCU comedy style nor do I want them in the same universe but that doesn't mean I want them with Fox either.

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    O-Face

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    #28  Edited By O-Face

    @christianrapper said:
    @koays said:

    @christianrapper: Lol we're turning it into an "X-Men vs Marvel" thing, because there is a VERY strong possibility that if Marvel received the rights they would choose to reboot the series rather then combine them. In which case we have to ask ourselves as fans "Would a potential MCU style X-Men movie be superior to the current FOX product?"

    No one is saying that you can't like both or can't enjoy one more then the others. But it's everyone expressing why they would or would not like certain things associated with the MCU included in their X-Men movies, and then discussing which critiques about MCU and FOX's products are valid.

    SO, if you say Thor and Cap and Tony making jokes while fighting is accurate to the characters in comics then I say sure. But I counter argue that the entire movie being built around jokes and whitty exchanges as opposed to drama and character development is against how most popular and interesting X-Men comics and stories are told. Which works better with FOX because of how their movies have carried development from one movie to the next, as opposed to the MCU, which builds on events but doesn't grow their characters as much.

    Rogues growth in X-2 is designed to show how far she's come from X-1. The teams weakness in X-3 is built on the emotional states following the losses of X-2. The Wolverine is entirely built on Wolverines mind state following X-3. Xavier is a broken man following First Class in DOFP, and Magneto and Mystique are both struggling with how the world sees them and what they want to become after DOFP.

    This level of depth isn't present in the MCU so it's hard to say that it would be present in a MCU X-Men film. Most of the people who want it seem to just want a flashy cartoon...when even X-Men TAS was deeper in it's individual arcs then the MCU is in it's phases.

    dofp and xmen apocalypse had the same tone as the mcu movies. the original trilogy wasn't as humorous, but the last 2 were carbon copies of the mcu. that is not a bad thing to me. it goes with the characters portrayals in the comics. actually to me the mcu movies did a better job of fleshing out their characters to me. civil war had way more characters and they did a much better job of showing each characters motivation than the xmen did in apocalypse. storm is one of the most popular characters and she hardly got any screen time at all. angel's motivation for joining the horsemen was kind of a mystery. he just left a situation where he was just a tool and he joined another one? why the heck did storm join him?

    Their motivations were likely cut due to pacing issues or run-time. I remember reading interviews with Singer talking about the motives of the horsemen and that it was partly because of Apoc's persuasion power. But we can piece together that Angel's motive was that he was exploited by humans. I remember the actress of Storm mentioning that she loves Apoc after making her into a goddess and he does say that he was going to turn her into a horseman when he enhances her.

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    Koays

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    #29 Koays  Online

    @christianrapper: Angel was picked by Psylocke because she knew he could fight but had lost his wing and been imprisoned, he had his body enhanced by Apocalypse who freed him. Storm impresses Apocalypse so he enhances and recruits the girl who'd never met another mutant....the only ones who we know joined him willingly were Psylocke (who seemed to be looking for a fight) and Magneto (who was going through emotional distress). Keep in mind this is WAY more then the comics Apocalypse, who just finds strong mutants and kidnaps them....no explanation.

    But what exactly is Ant-mans motivation for joining team Cap? Black Widow's for joining Ironman? Why does Zemo spend a whole movie trying to get Cap and Ironman to fight over Bucky? How does he know Cap and Ironman won't just team up from the jump? Why don't they? Why does Tony suddenly want the government to control Ironman when all his movies have been about not letting that happen? Because some lady blamed him for something he wasn't there for?

    The fact is MCU characters don't have personalities or character arcs....they just do what the movie says they should do without any serous change coming to the characters.

    I mean Astonishing X-Men was written by the director of The Avenger's movie and every common criticism about the book is the same as the ones i've sent toward the MCU, it's shallow filled with snarky talk and flash, and doesn't grow the characters like other X-Men stories have. So if the MCU style is odd and stands out as lacking even among X-Men comics, please show me the X-Men book that fits into the MCU style?

    Aside from 2 relaunches in their entire history, nearly every X-Men run has built on top of one another....but you seem to think that the MCU which can't continue a characters growth from one movie to the next is just like this.

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    christianrapper

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    @dernman said:

    I don't think X-Men should be in the currant MCU comedy style nor do I want them in the same universe but that doesn't mean I want them with Fox either.

    do you want them like bvs? it's a comic book movie. i love the style the xmen are filmed in now. they don't take themselves too seriously and they are funny. they are also entertaining. the only criticism i have is that they focus too much on mags and charles. i wish they would explore storm more.

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    christianrapper

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    angel was the weakest horsemen. he wasn't all that powerful. do you guys realize that every super hero movie except deadpool had basically the same theme. people who usually are on the same side fight each other and all the regular people are upset about the carnage left behind. that is probably another reason that this movie didn't do as well as expected. how much of that can you take? i hope the next batch of movies don't basically have the same plot.

    also, as for this movie being deeper than the mcu i still disagree. mags killed thousands and maybe hundreds of thousands of innocent people and the xmen covered for him. he managed to look like a hero to the rest of the world. he got off free and clear. storm basically did nothing but fight other mutants for about 10 seconds. i am glad they finally made her powers like the storm in the comic book even though it was for only 10 seconds.

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    O-Face

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    #32  Edited By O-Face

    @christianrapper: Well, he was under Apoc's influence, Xavier even said so. So they probably don't see it as his fault.

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    warrior100

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    no

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    christianrapper

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    @o-face said:

    @christianrapper: Well, he was under Apoc's influence, Xavier even said so. So they probably don't see it as his fault.

    they really didn't establish the fact that apocalypse used any mind control on mags. he just came and talked to him and mags joined up.

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    O-Face

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    @o-face said:

    @christianrapper: Well, he was under Apoc's influence, Xavier even said so. So they probably don't see it as his fault.

    they really didn't establish the fact that apocalypse used any mind control on mags. he just came and talked to him and mags joined up.

    Its hinted that the people he enhances fall under his persuasion. Remember how Storm was all against killing and wanted to be like Mystique? When Apocalypse enhances her power she is completely down with his plan to destroy all the cities across the world and eventually mind controlling the entire planet. That is very strange change of character. Erik joins him right after he gets his power-up and going with Apoc's plan to mind control everyone is out of character even for him.

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    Minako_Mori

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    X-Men movies are much better. They make you happy or sad. They make you care about the charecters and want to see what happens to them. They can provoke emotion from you. MCU is just fun with no emotion.

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    Avenging-X-Bolt

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    #37  Edited By Avenging-X-Bolt  Online

    @koays:

    Ant-Man only joined at first to help Sam, Cap and Bucky get to Siberia and fight the other Winter Soldiers if they were unleashed. He didn't even know Tony was going to be involved at first but it doesn't take a genius to figure out why he stayed after finding out.

    Natasha agreed because she felt that they could still maintain a measure of control whilst calming the public by signing. She said it herslef, keeping the team together is more important than how they stay together.

    Zemo most likely didn't care who was teamed up with who as long as the team was torn apart. And even of they did team up from the start (which he knew would be highly unlikely due to their stances on the accords), he knew all he would have to do is show that video to Tony and sh$t would go down

    Tony's is easy. He feels bad about having to blow up a small country because of a mess HE caused with his murder bot son. That in addition to the collapse of his relationship with Pepper and the rest of his bad decisions are weighing on him. His movies were about keeping the armor out of the government's hand which he is still doing.

    Most of this is stated pretty clearly in the movie and what isn't doesn't take much work to figure out.

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    Koays

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    #38 Koays  Online

    @koays:

    Ant-Man only joined at first to help Sam, Cap and Bucky get to Siberia and fight the other Winter Soldiers if they were unleashed. He didn't even know Tony was going to be involved at first but it doesn't take a genius to figure out why he stayed after finding out.

    Natasha agreed because she felt that they could still maintain a measure of control whilst calming the public by signing. She said it herslef, keeping the team together is more important than how they stay together.

    Zemo most likely didn't care who was teamed up with who as long as the team was torn apart. And even of they did team up from the start (which he knew would be highly unlikely due to their stances on the accords), he knew all he would have to do is show that video to Tony and sh$t would go down

    Tony's is easy. He feels bad about having to blow up a small country because of a meet HE caused with his murder bot son. That in addition to the collapse of his relationship with Pepper and the rest of his bad decisions are weighing on him. His movies were about keeping the armor out of the government's hand which he is still doing.

    Most of this is stated pretty clearly in the movie and what isn't doesn't take much work to figure out.

    So here's my thing...Zemo can come up with an obscenely over complicated set of plans based on results that he can't guarantee, with an end goal that only works in the exact situation that he layed it out in (and even then is built on the idea that any of the Avengers wouldn't call a time up to exchange information)....and that's less strenuous a leap then Apocalypse who's abilities repeatedly allowed him to clash with Xavier throughout the movie having a type of influence over those who he gives power to?

    I mean that is the context of my critique.

    He's saying, in response to me pointing out growth across multiple movies, that they did a better job of explaining characters motivations in Civil War. However the amount of leap that it takes to get Tony from "We need to control ourselves" to "Let's sign over our actions to the worlds leaders" is huge. And it's a common thing in the MCU movies for the story to build on events that happened previously instead of the characters growing from their experiences in previous adventures. The Story grows, the characters do not.

    Black Widow can watch government interference, ineffectiveness and corruption lead to the downfall of shield and turn around and say it's ok for the Avengers to fall under the same situation ...as long as they're still a team. And we can come up with a bunch of possible reasons that she's ok with it..but because of how the MCU is structured her character growth isn't as important as her role.

    The X-Men movies, while being less focused on stacking events on top of each other (ESPECIALLY in the early trilogy) does allow each series of events to weigh on the characters and change/effect who they are, even if it seems like a limited scope when you realize how many dozens of characters they COULD be using.

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    christianrapper

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    #39  Edited By christianrapper

    @o-face said:
    @christianrapper said:
    @o-face said:

    @christianrapper: Well, he was under Apoc's influence, Xavier even said so. So they probably don't see it as his fault.

    they really didn't establish the fact that apocalypse used any mind control on mags. he just came and talked to him and mags joined up.

    Its hinted that the people he enhances fall under his persuasion. Remember how Storm was all against killing and wanted to be like Mystique? When Apocalypse enhances her power she is completely down with his plan to destroy all the cities across the world and eventually mind controlling the entire planet. That is very strange change of character. Erik joins him right after he gets his power-up and going with Apoc's plan to mind control everyone is out of character even for him.

    how is that out of character for erik? he was about to kill a whole warehouse full of innocent people. he basically got about 30 or 40 people killed before apocalypse's influence. magneto needed no outside influence to kill humans. he was well on his way to becoming the magneto of the first 3 films.

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    Mooty_Pass

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    The X-men should go back to Marvel I don't see why they shouldn't. The X-men franchise is going to hell.....there has been 9 X-men movies made and only 2 of them where actually good: Days of Future Past AND First Class. So yes the X-men DO NEED TO COME HOME. Nothing has ever been done right in any of the films. Also what?! Consequences??? HOW what could possibly be the consequences if they come home other than the Humans hating them for some odd unknown reason.

    The X-men has every right to be under the Banner of the MCU just as the FF4.

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    imfxlix

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    @koays said:

    @christianrapper: Wow so Xavier tries to save the humans and magneto kills thousands only to be forgiven and become a good guy repeatedly...that's not accurate to the source material at all....

    Then let's look at Xavier from Days of Future past....who has been mentally scarred from the abandonment and failure of what he and Magneto had tried to build together. Having self doubt and fears as well as reexperiencing the trauma associated with developing his powers. Only to finally by the end be built into the beginnings of the man he sees he will become. Then in Apocalypse after 3 movies of having a philosophy that was only vaguely against violence, he gives the world the message "Those with strength, protect those without" which is THE most Xavier thing that could be said by any incarnation of the character.

    His relationship with Magneto despite lacking the exact context of their comic counterparts is the Exact same on a subtext level. And their older counterparts show a version of what the comic characters are at the height of their individual beliefs. Mentors, leaders, rival philosophers, both stuck in their ways but always ready to join forces when a greater threat arises even if they want to handle it in different t ways

    Not a single MCU character can come.close to being dissected to that level. Hell I'm not even sure where Cap got all his milliltary training and fighting skills.

    the mcu is as true to the characters as the x men. i don't know why some of you choose to do this xmen vs marvel thing. the xmen movies have the same jokey tone as the mcu movies. dofp and apocalypse were full of jokes. also, the quips are true to the characters that's all they do in the comics. they make jokes all the time. they make jokes when fighting villains in the comics. the heroes make jokes when they are talking among other heroes. these movies have the same tone. they can fit seamlessly with each other. heck, wolverine or some other mutant can appear in a mcu movie without some big explanation. they don't need to reboot anything except quicksilver. that can be explained, too.

    You have to be kidding me... The same tone??? The X-Men are way darker than the MCU. Yes, they tell jokes in both franchises, but do you really think that's enough similarities to say that they're carbon copies??? You're telling that when you were watching Apocalypse, you felt like watching Ant-Man? EVERY movie has some jokes in it, doesn't mean that all movies are alike.

    Anyway, I'm not sure about the X-Men joining the MCU... The fanboy in me would be SO excited, but at the same time I would be so afraid that they ruin my favorite characters...

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    cattlebattle

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    @koays said:

    . Keep in mind this is WAY more then the comics Apocalypse, who just finds strong mutants and kidnaps them....no explanation.

    I know that you know how much I hate bringing up the 80s X-Men comics, but I am going to do it right now....

    The first time you meet the Horsemen of Apocalypse in X-Factor, right around the time of the "Fall of the Mutants" arc, you find out that Apocalypse kind offers the people that become his Horsemen things, whether they were all brainwashed or not is something that was never confirmed. For instance, the mutant that was the original famine couldn't touch any organic matter, the horseman that was originally War had lost his legs fighting in Vietnam, Angel had lost his wings, later Caliban joined Apocalypse because Apocalypse promised the power to take vengeance on those who killed his family (The Morlocks). They were all figuratively and literally broken people that had lost things that Apocalypse promised to fix, all the while really turning them into his foot soldiers.

    However, after that, people became obsessed with writing Apocalypse like a one dimensional villain and just like how many X-teams are assembled, just started throwing random characters together and saying "these are his new horsemen!!" So, you are right about Apocalypse just finding strong mutants, which isn't even always the case considering he has put the likes of Deathbird on his team, and kidnapping them these days. I am just saying it wasn't always the case though, writers actually used to have interesting ideas and write.

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    O-Face

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    @o-face said:
    @christianrapper said:
    @o-face said:

    @christianrapper: Well, he was under Apoc's influence, Xavier even said so. So they probably don't see it as his fault.

    they really didn't establish the fact that apocalypse used any mind control on mags. he just came and talked to him and mags joined up.

    Its hinted that the people he enhances fall under his persuasion. Remember how Storm was all against killing and wanted to be like Mystique? When Apocalypse enhances her power she is completely down with his plan to destroy all the cities across the world and eventually mind controlling the entire planet. That is very strange change of character. Erik joins him right after he gets his power-up and going with Apoc's plan to mind control everyone is out of character even for him.

    how is that out of character for erik? he was about to kill a whole warehouse full of innocent people. he basically got about 30 or 40 people killed before apocalypse's influence. magneto needed no outside influence to kill humans. he was well on his way to becoming the magneto of the first 3 films.

    I said the latter part, as in mind controlling the surviving population. Apoc didn't only think of humans as weak, but certain mutants as well as he referred to Mystique as a weakling.

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    Avenging-X-Bolt

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    #44  Edited By Avenging-X-Bolt  Online

    @koays:

    I can agree with your Zemo point when you say it like that.

    Black Widow makes sense to me. She basically said, we'll give them this much but if something comes up that we really feel act then we will. and she did that when she kept Black Panther from capturing Cap and Bucky.

    As for Tony, well...he did create a murderous robot and destroyed a small country. What else would he have done to keep the team in check?

    Anyway , I haven't seen Apocalypse so I can't judge wether it was done better than Civil War or not but I see your point and was never trying to discredit it. I'm for keeping the franchises apart as I can't see any true benefits to a merger at this point. I like the contrast between the universes and it gives the lesser used characters from both universes a chance to shine.

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    RaunJisto

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    Yeah I personally feel like the MCU would drop the ball on the racism that mutants would face. Like they'd be too afraid to get into dark places with it most X-men movies have done successfully. It'd also be tough to recreate a Prof X and Magneto that are as well-rounded as the Fox ones. Sure we'd probably see more X-men use their powers more effectively and the action would probably be better, but I really wouldn't want to get rid of ANY of the actors for Charles or Erik.

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    Takeshi57

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    Koays

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    #47 Koays  Online

    @takeshi57: ???

    @koays said:

    . Keep in mind this is WAY more then the comics Apocalypse, who just finds strong mutants and kidnaps them....no explanation.

    I know that you know how much I hate bringing up the 80s X-Men comics, but I am going to do it right now....

    The first time you meet the Horsemen of Apocalypse in X-Factor, right around the time of the "Fall of the Mutants" arc, you find out that Apocalypse kind offers the people that become his Horsemen things, whether they were all brainwashed or not is something that was never confirmed. For instance, the mutant that was the original famine couldn't touch any organic matter, the horseman that was originally War had lost his legs fighting in Vietnam, Angel had lost his wings, later Caliban joined Apocalypse because Apocalypse promised the power to take vengeance on those who killed his family (The Morlocks). They were all figuratively and literally broken people that had lost things that Apocalypse promised to fix, all the while really turning them into his foot soldiers.

    However, after that, people became obsessed with writing Apocalypse like a one dimensional villain and just like how many X-teams are assembled, just started throwing random characters together and saying "these are his new horsemen!!" So, you are right about Apocalypse just finding strong mutants, which isn't even always the case considering he has put the likes of Deathbird on his team, and kidnapping them these days. I am just saying it wasn't always the case though, writers actually used to have interesting ideas and write.

    I do remember the common theme of the initial Horsemen (flashbacks to our last 4 or 5 debates over OG X-Factor), and really the whole "take a broken mutant and amp them" idea that is the more underused theme of his horsemen (there have been several more to follow that idea and honestly it makes for some of the better Horsemen..even if most Apocalypse Horsemen stories are halfassed or trash.)

    However the whole idea of "death seed" and Apocalypse transformations (from about Wolverine's time onward) has sort of solidified the idea of a horseman having their mind state changed just to sort of hark back to the only Horsemen that really worked, and how Archangel became a bit more conflicted and ruthless in his change.


    But at the end of the day if we go back to most of the horsemen, even the ones from the same team we get a large amount of kidnappings of people who generally wouldn't have joined up with Apocalypse, paired up with at least one or two people who seem in control of their faculties...and they fight for Apocalypse either because of mind control or some never before seen malevolence in their character. (Gambit and Sunfire's stints come to mind as being up there) And the point is that 9/10 times "shock value" and some awesome amp is the only reason they are chosen..and their reasons for switching isn't even as important as the big mask/hood reveal of who they really are.



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    Magian

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    I prefer them as they are now, two different and separate franchises. The X-Men have enough history of their own to keep supporting their own movies, plus I don't really see how they could suddenly introduce the concepts of mutants in the MCU without a reality altering event or something. Not to mention that the MCU already has something similar going on with the Inhumans (even if they strangely haven't even been mentioned at all in the movies).

    Maybe a shared multiverse or something with the occasional crossover would be more ok by me.

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    adamTRMM

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    I think before we'll see any MCU/Fox crossover, there will be a super attention grabber flick like Avengers/Star Wars. That shit will make loads of money just by letting Luke Skywalker and Tony Stark sit there and have a conversation about the Force for 2 hours.

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    cattlebattle

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    #50  Edited By cattlebattle

    @koays said:

    I do remember the common theme of the initial Horsemen (flashbacks to our last 4 or 5 debates over OG X-Factor), and really the whole "take a broken mutant and amp them" idea that is the more underused theme of his horsemen (there have been several more to follow that idea and honestly it makes for some of the better Horsemen..even if most Apocalypse Horsemen stories are halfassed or trash.)

    However the whole idea of "death seed" and Apocalypse transformations (from about Wolverine's time onward) has sort of solidified the idea of a horseman having their mind state changed just to sort of hark back to the only Horsemen that really worked, and how Archangel became a bit more conflicted and ruthless in his change.

    But at the end of the day if we go back to most of the horsemen, even the ones from the same team we get a large amount of kidnappings of people who generally wouldn't have joined up with Apocalypse, paired up with at least one or two people who seem in control of their faculties...and they fight for Apocalypse either because of mind control or some never before seen malevolence in their character. (Gambit and Sunfire's stints come to mind as being up there) And the point is that 9/10 times "shock value" and some awesome amp is the only reason they are chosen..and their reasons for switching isn't even as important as the big mask/hood reveal of who they really are.

    The story and importance of Apocalypse's Horsemen has altered over time. These days they are often presented as Apocalypse's powerful generals or something like that. Originally Apocalypse didn't even really seem to care about the Horsemen and just altered them so he could use them to test other mutants,, he had no expectancy of their loyalty, they were basically pawns in his chess game. I mean, the original Pestlence/Plague was defeated by the Power Pack, they weren't even that powerful. These days thy have randomly thrown together characters or biblical "Final Horsemen", which was sort of a weird premise.

    Everything about Simonson's original idea for Apocalypse was better anyways. The whole Ancient Egyptian demi god who has every mutant power and rules the future is so marred with cliches....it's hard to take seriously sometimes. The original idea that he was some neanderthal that mastered Celestial technology was much better. I remember an issue of X-Factor where he fights the High Evolutionary--they get hurled into space and Apocalypse uses his molecular control (the only power he had back then) to give himself a mask and rocket boots and the proceeds to goad and pummel the High Evolutionary, who was a pretty powerful character in his own right. They try to make Apocalypse out to be the "Darkseid" of the X-Men universe now, it's lame and all he really does is threaten people, sit on thrones, has pretentious monologues, and gets defeated rather easily. Back in the 80s, he was just some smug asshole that was really difficult to defeat and had a radical view on the evolutionary course of the human race. So much more interesting.

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