Ok, so lets talk mature subject matter-

Over the years (since the beginning really) the X-Men have often delved into some of the most hard hitting, controversial, topical and prolific issues in real life and used them to generate story material and concepts that have often changed the very nature of the franchise and made the X-Men stand out as something often more ground breaking and unique then "just another superhero comic".

We've seen sex, drugs, racism, bigotry, abuse, radicalism, fanaticism, insanity, suicide, depression, war, genocide, terrorism, and more mental illnesses and conditions then we really need to list.

But as "groundbreaking" and "edgy" as all this can often be when compared to other mainstream comics where these things are considered worthy of "a very special episode"....the X-Men seem to have trouble finding a balance between skirting around the issues and delving to far into something....and really since the end of the 80's, they've rarely put much time into exploring and examining many of the issues brought up in the story and often times things seem included more for the fact they are "controversial" or "bad" then to truly look at why or how they are. At the same time we've seen a growth in "kid friendly" aspects, and a resurgence of more traditional adventure style comics in recent years.

So my question is-

Do you think the X-Men need to explore more of this mature subject matter?

Do you think that exploring too much of these elements negatively affects the tone of the X-Men franchise?

and

Overall, how do you feel the mature topics and plot elements have been handled in the X-Men? Good? Bad? Could be better?

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SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER WHEN REPLYING-

MGH, Kick, Xperience - A plot device often seen is that the X-Men will encounter a drug designed to either unnaturally boost a mutants powers or to give mutant powers and abilities to ordinary people. While behaving more like mutant steroids, one of the side effects is often to develop dependency on the drug that is never truly elaborated on. Is it good that they avoid the possible pitfalls and darker aspects by sending a simple yet understandable "drugs are bad" message? or Are they missing a great oppurtunity to tell a story that can hint at the struggles and realities of addiction?

War, Genocide, Mass Murder- Another plot device we often see is that a huge conflict between factions (say AvX), a large scale mass murder (by and to both mutant and human groups), and even acts of Genocide will happen and the characters and even the world around them will remain unchanged by the events as soon as their over. Is it bad that we don't see the exploration of the feelings that these events would bring on? Or is it better that we don't dwell too much on these issues as it makes it difficult to justify a character being positive with the constant weight of every tragedy in the narrative on their shoulders?

X-Force and X-Factor- Both Peter David's X-Factor and most of the modern X-Force books tend to explore and showcase controversial topics. With X-Force examining the numerous psychological tropes associated with attempting to justify and dealing with committing murder. While X-Factor showcased controversial aspects of interpersonal relationships, with things like Rahne's reaction to Rictor's sexuality and the Monet/Maddrox/Siren situation. Does exploring these aspects make these stories better for how they examine topics "too edgy" for the main line of titles? Or do they cause harm to the characters by painting them in a darker light than that makes it difficult to accept them if/when they return to the more "black & white" main line titles?

I would like it if the X-men books explored more mature subjects.

I'd be fine if the books explored some of these subjects as long as it doesn't get lost while doing it. We often see characters and stories loos itself when they start exploring things. Also I think we should keep one or two books light for kids, I mean when need to keep in mind that some kids still read these, so some books should have a lighter tone for them.

@william300: i have, in the past three years, not seen a child at my LCS. The amount of children readers is completely dwarfed by the numbers of adult readers. As a company, it seems almost silly to cater to a minor demographic instead of the majority

Its kind of hard to expand on character evolution when MARVEL brings up a massive crossover every 4 months or so

@dman1366: But there still there. And if anything completely abandoning the lighter tone in all books is as much it getting loss as anything else. Comics started out as kids, and the people in charge abandoning that idea just because adults outnumber them would be wrong in my opinion. And I really don't see the need for the entire line to go dark, I like both light hearted and darker stories, why can't we have both. We have enough X-MEN books to where we can have some of both, we can have a dark X-MEN book, a light hearted book, and a book that's in a comfortable middle.

THIS could be another factor in whether they could even accomplish mature stories. I mean in the middle of tackling his arachnophobia theirs a big crossover which "WILL CHANGE MARVEL FOREVER" and now Cyclops is on the "Avengers East African Division". And his arachnophobia will never be addressed again.

@william300: I agree with your though process. Though to add to the discussion there are some books which clearly suffer badly from their tones. Wolverine and the X-Men was definitively the most kid friendly book under Aaron, but it wasted the dark and potentially character defining story line of Oya. And some of the more comedic elements of it heavily damaged the perception of the JGS as group. The entire cast and roster became the "fun and colorful" team, despite having a child version of Apocalypse, a flesheating alien, and a kid who tried to murder the united nations among them,

@koays: Agreed. I think they need to be more clear on who the books are meant for. As I said, I like the idea of having different books with different tones, have the school book be the more light hearted tone, a book similar to Rick Remeder's Uncanny X-FORCE with it being dark, and a book that's a good balance between the two.

Ok So to start with the questions

I think exploring mature subject matter is fine at times. I think it should be a good mix though because a mix more accurately reflects the human experience if you will. For instance every single situation is not an object lesson, nor is everything earth-shattering change or an end of the world type scenario. I dont like the overly silly like what we got in Aaron's run but I think even the people with a bit of a darker personality are not always so intense or whatever.

I do think that trying to send messages and exploring all these subjects at the expense of storytelling or action is not the way to go though. I mean there should be some form of escape in entertainment not just that its a prefect reflection of the fukked up world we live right? I think there is some trouble in trying to use comics as a platform to justify or promote certain things. So basically all the bs that I just said in a nutshell can be summed up easily: Be balanced!!

I think that some of the issues could have been handled better. I think the treatment or the view of mutants for instance can easily be a metaphor for any who feel oppressed and a lesson in what can happen in those type situations. Sometimes you are able to read an x-comic and be like " man this is just like how this group of people is treated" a smart reader can do that. So do they really need to spell out every single solitary social issue? No. Thats what a metaphor is and it can apply to different situations. I think there have been many missed opportunities with the Xmen though and it seems like an injustice when they decide to delve so deep into certain things while barely skimming the surface of others. Its as if a person is pushing a certain agenda because they feel it affects them or it needs to be addressed while ignoring another. I dont know if this fits well but one thing that I think could have been addressed for the time would have been to have Wolverine and Storm together back in the day when that might have been considered somewhat controversial. Thats one example at least for me.

"MGH, Kick, Xperience - A plot device often seen is that the X-Men will encounter a drug designed to either unnaturally boost a mutants powers or to give mutant powers and abilities to ordinary people. While behaving more like mutant steroids, one of the side effects is often to develop dependency on the drug that is never truly elaborated on. Is it good that they avoid the possible pitfalls and darker aspects by sending a simple yet understandable "drugs are bad" message? or Are they missing a great oppurtunity to tell a story that can hint at the struggles and realities of addiction?"

I think this story or stories should be explored more. i think something similar was somewhat explored with Siryn going through an alcohol-related issue. In this case though it seems a bit like a missed opportunity because people get involved with drugs for different reasons. In fact this is one of the types of stories that could be addressed or expanded upon in a New Xmen book. Imagine if in someway a story could be told in which someone with healing powers gave their blood or whatever to develop a drug to heal or cure people yet those people developed a dependency. Or for those mutants that were depowered to develop and manufacture or control MGH to restore their powers. Or humans who want to excel is certain mediums be it sports or whatever looking to use mutant DNA to somehow become better. Or for the government to get involved like the CIA was with Iran-Contra scandal in which MGH or something like it was allowed in order to further the gov't agenda. Imagine the gov't aiding their allies with a sort of super-soldier type deal with MGH or using/forcing/harvesting a telepaths DNA or whatever in order to come up with mind-control drugs. Or even take it in another direction in which an Xmen member knows they are going into a situation where they cant win but they turn to a drug like MGH, Xperience or Kick to try and save their friends or give them an advantage and they become addicted, dependent or it alters them in some way. The family aspect of the Xmen could come in to play in trying to get young mutants or their teammates away from the drugs and really the affect it has on the people around it. The "drugs are bad" simple message never worked. Its just like telling your kid the generic "dont talk to strangers" and thinking they will be safe... nah its more to it than that. And the same with this situation.

"War, Genocide, Mass Murder- Another plot device we often see is that a huge conflict between factions (say AvX), a large scale mass murder (by and to both mutant and human groups), and even acts of Genocide will happen and the characters and even the world around them will remain unchanged by the events as soon as their over. Is it bad that we don't see the exploration of the feelings that these events would bring on? Or is it better that we don't dwell too much on these issues as it makes it difficult to justify a character being positive with the constant weight of every tragedy in the narrative on their shoulders?"

This issue is something that should be explored as far as how the individuals feel. I always felt with AVX for instance, that the best part of the event or story was AVX: Consequences. I dont think that after a huge event things should just go back to business as usual or the lazy 8 months later so we dont have to deal with character emotion and all. Back in the day when Jean died, Scott left the team for a while. I think this type of reaction is normal and should be explored even more. As much as people deal with PTSD and other things, little side dialogue panels that reflect their feelings on the matter would be great and actually tell a more complete story. This is what Claremont used to do this and most love his characterizations. Largely i think thats because you knew what they were thinking and what their motivations were and you'd get the little footnotes referring you to whatever issue to see why they are saying what they are saying. The inner dialogue can help tell a story as opposed to having a two page spread with one or two words or having an artist who draws everyone the same try and capture an expression on a characters face and you are supposed to put together what happening. For instance in Remender's Uncanny Avengers when Rogue killed Wanda, many saw that as out of character or her reverting back to old ways. This could have been better explained if from the start we had seen her grieving over Xavier and having inner dialogue about what was happening. It would have been a great character piece on how extreme loss and stress can reverse seeming progression.

There are some people who always see the silver lining or can justify any situation. We all know them, hell alot of them are on these boards. You see them always starting responses to questions or criticism with "to be fair" or "actually...". Thats life though because some are more pessimistic while others are bright-eyed optimist no matter what. They have the outlook that things could be worse and i will enjoy whatever. Well i think that certain Xmen should have that personality too while others shouldn't. Thats what makes a great mix.

"X-Force and X-Factor- Both Peter David's X-Factor and most of the modern X-Force books tend to explore and showcase controversial topics. With X-Force examining the numerous psychological tropes associated with attempting to justify and dealing with committing murder. While X-Factor showcased controversial aspects of interpersonal relationships, with things like Rahne's reaction to Rictor's sexuality and the Monet/Maddrox/Siren situation. Does exploring these aspects make these stories better for how they examine topics "too edgy" for the main line of titles? Or do they cause harm to the characters by painting them in a darker light than that makes it difficult to accept them if/when they return to the more "black & white" main line titles?"

I think these type of stories actually serve to humanize the characters more. I mean really I believe that everyone has a breaking point in which if enough is done to them that they would be able to justify committing murder or whatever. I also think not everyone responds to social stuff the same way. And you know what.. thats ok, In my opinion. Ive said this before and maybe its a poor example but Im African American yet Ive actually have a conversation with a few KKK members. While much of what they stand for is bigoted or racist or what have you, in conversation they believe that their race is superior to others, well am I any different if I believe mine is? Is pride of race wrong? Should I be leading protest and petitioning courts to allow Blacks to be accepted into the KKK? Not everyone has to agree and a reaction to something you dont agree with or something you see as strange is normal. But its great reading and great characterization in my opinion to see a mutant react in a way that excludes someone who is different when they are fighting for the same thing. its great irony and very true because at the end of the day we are all somewhat hypocrites. And while we may be tolerant and accepting of certain things that doesnt have to mean we agree with it or think its the best way to live or the best lifestyle, religion what have you. I dont think these portrayals really hurt a character as much as it fleshes them out. What hurts characters is what they've done with Beast, in which there is no justification in his actions or at least its very weak. For a character to just come out of the blue with something with no former groundwork laid for it is what hurts a character more so than being considered somewhat dark and edgy.

To the points about dark and edgy vs lighthearted and fun....

I think you can accomplish both. I think the cartoons can do that, so make a cartoon for the kids. If there needs to be a book for them then fine do something like what they are doing in Avengers Assemble. Aaron was horrible and not the way to go. Use another universe aside from the main line of books but I think Xmen being hated and feared is more in line with a bit of a darker tone from the jump.

Sorry for the long post but, its an interesting topic for discussion....

Maturity?

Well, more nudity for male characters. I don't get why showing boob outlines is fine, but balls outlines are bad usually. Also, HOW many nude female character are there again?

How far should creators take it? As far as it needs to go to tell a good story -- no more, no less.

Also, if Magik and Emma have to wear skimpy clothing, then I'd like to see some of the guys in cutoff denim shorts and a tank top every now and again; is that too much to ask?

@luna_joestar: You haunt me, like a ghost. Will it ever end? Will I ever be free?

@sprior93: Nope

@koays: I wish that was his new costume :|

THIS post is why I made the topic. Great points all of them really.

My only questions being where exactly we should draw the lines on the scale of grey. You sort of point out how they need to be able to be dark but still have varied cast of personalities but I don't feel like you were pointing towards everything being a Marvel MAX series. So like whats the limit for where you go with the dark, because if your exploring all these elements with all their decidedly "bad side of humanity" tones your gonna have to pack on the positive to call it balanced.

@sprior93: Smh

ok so ill start by admitting I havent read everyone's replies so I may be hitting on something some one else has already stated, so sorry about that. Now my opinion is

yes and no?

I think this is why you need a variety of X men comics, people always want to speak of mandate and blah blah, what you need is good stories but not all stories appeal to everyone. The X men are two things, A.) A franchise that have dominated comics for 50ish years Thus having one of the longest and OLDEST, most Mature Fan bases in comics and B.) A larger franchise that still appeals to new and younger readers that may not be ready for such mature topics.

So by making books, uh X-men for example that can relate to new and younger readers, or idk New X men that features students for the younger readers, then things like X-Force, or even the newest Magneto series that is a bit grittier and deal with more serious issues. So i think the franchise is big enough to tackle both and SHOULD tackle both. I also think its one of the reasons you see through the years ever since the introduction of the Idk Second cast of X men (Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus) when it was apparent that the X men had turned into a full fledge super team and no longer tackled the student issues or appealed to the teenagers as much they added the New Mutants, they faded and soon we got Gen X, the Academy X, even during the dire Utopian days we eventually got Gen Hope, so yea I think they are Built to do both and I think they should. I also think there should be no topic to gritty or off limits to the group. Its just the process of organizing it correctly

@hawk2916: @william300: @dman1366: @mcklayn: Another interesting point that relative to having books specifically for younger readers is that a lot of times the books that appeal to the younger audiences...aren't really all that immature. Who knows who Claremont was really aiming the New Mutants for (help @cattlebattle?), but theres always been a strong sense with Gen X, New X-Men, Young X-Men, and Gen Hope that their series were intended for kids (with a lot more teenage shenanigans, colorful adventures and inexperience) but despite that they have had some of the most dark and twisted storylines in X-Men history. The M Twins and Penance, The Decimation, the death of Wolfcub, Oya's life.... all dark and twisted. Where as Wolverine and the X-Men was the most light hearted of the bunch and is arguably the most hated of the group (though their could be an argument made for the lack of character development which often highlighted the teen X-Men runs)

Another thing is that Ultimate X-Men is as gritty and dark as it gets....where do you all stand with that?

@koays: those are fine points, and I think marvel should have an entire children's line, where they get x-men to avengers books specifically designed for children.

But what ruins the medium is chalking it up to only a bastard medium between movie and novel for simple minded children. Not every story should be so daft and watered down. We shouldn't have such ignorant and boring character interaction with no real goal or focus. I mean look at The Will of Xavier, what the fuck was that?

@koays: and ultimate x-men, or Harbinger, is where the x-men should be

Will of Xavier was...well it was..I mean we all know that...sigh...

not really need to, no

depends. if it doesn't negatively effect the tone, is it too much?

I guess that depends on what you mean by mature..

while I think that the X-men as an artistic vehicle is both suitable for and capable of carrying more serious themes than a lot of what is aimed at younger readers, I also do think of X-men as something that a kid, even in elementary school, could read and get a general sense o

@koays: I see what you are saying as far as the positive. This is where its difficult but I think having characters that don't take things too seriously would fit that. If say a Nightcrawler is always upbeat and not assuming the worst but looking for the good then he fills that role. Or Boom-Boom or Jubilee or even Iceman at times. I mean really books like Spiderman appeal to younger kids but Spiderman can also deal with more mature themes sometimes. So I guess having a character like that works.

Really for the most part though I rarely see kids in the local comic book store or even in the comics and graphic novel section at a Barnes and Noble or whatever. I mean I don't think anything is wrong with Xmen being catered to a more mature audience. Considering how many dystopian young adult novels there are and the subjects that some if not most of the young adult genre of books is dealing with, I don't think the more mature themes are too adult at all. Really these days so-called kids are sexually active pretty soon and they are exposed to a lot more even before teen years. Especially on tv, the internet, in school or even just right outside the door in the local neighborhood or community or whatever.In this day and age kids in places in the middle east and Africa are carrying guns bigger than them, you have 12 and 13 year old girls turning up pregnant, and these idiots who should burned alive going and shooting up elementary schools. I was 8 years old when I saw a family member turn tricks to get a fix while babysitting us "little kids". Even a little younger when I was given money to be a lookout while some "business" went down. I wish someone would have tried to tell me that even a max series was too adult for me. It would have been the biggest joke ever. And really if we are aiming for a more diverse or accepting and tolerant society then when should teaching begin? I really think the way to include younger readers though is to just reprint and retell but modernize the silver age stories and even some of the 70's and 80's stuff. Sending the O5 back to there time and then retelling how they deal with things but with a little modern twist would be an opportunity to do this. I mean can you imagine dark Phoenix or DOFP or God Loves Man Kills with the technology and printing capabilities we have today and someone like Oliver Coipel on the art...hell I would buy and re read that propped on a ledge with a fire blazing in the background, a hugh hefner robe and bunny slippers on my feet. Lol.

I don't think it's a good idea to force the exploration of particular categories of issues in a story, or to relate the story to a particular event or group that's the good thing about the X-men, they can be applied to anyone who feels oppressed by society.

I think it's just important to tell stories that hold meaning because their good stories that have art in them, and when you create a story with art it resonates a strong message on multiple levels.

In the words of J.R.R Tolkien.

“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien.

To this point then I have to ask- Do you think that we have hit a happy medium as is with the exploration of the more serious theme? Or would it damage it's current accessibility to more deeply explore some of these themes? And if we have room to explore deeper elements how far do you think it could/would you even want it to be pushed before it became detrimental? For instance I think that exploring to much of the "reality" of life and death in superhero comics made Ultimate X-Men a depressing read, and if I wasn't already an X-Fan then i doubt I would've stuck with it as a younger reader.


@hawk2916- I totally get where your coming from, I just feel there's a point where you have to ask questions about merits of either approach. I mean the reality is that most people at a very young age get just a taste of the violence, sexuality, and "depravity" in real life that would give a single X-Man character motivation for decades, and it would be something that people can at least understand if not relate to with the exception of perhaps the truly sheltered. But at the same time is it ok to accept that as the standard and attempt to appeal to it? Because we are in a age where reality TV shows are advertising episodes during the day time where the cast discuss their sex tapes, does that mean that we should accept the reality and attempt to take a more realistic approach to the art form that acknowledges the reality of 2015? Or should we adopt the stance that X-Men (and mainstream comics) are a haven from these truths? That while they can acknowledge the tone, trends and reality of life and even explore them...that it shouldn't go as far as to contribute to them by having characters do the things that we see as norm on any TV program with an 8pm start time. And even then is that providing a haven or just denying and sheltering people from the facts of life? And is that bad? Basically I feel like there comes a point when you have to ask if it would be ok for Oya to walk up to Cyclops, or for Cyclops to walk up to Xavier and ask why it was ok for to turn someone who needed your help into a murderer and child soldier.

For the argument for reprints, I think that's always a cool thing to do. And I completely agree that the All New X-Men would be better served taking their knowledge of the future and telling new stories set in the "past" (not that i know how far back that past would be). But really ever since "No More Humans" was announced and we were all speculating on what it would be about and the ethical questions that could be tackled (before it turned into just another superhero romp), I've felt that once every 2 years there should be a Graphic Novel that sort of deconstructs the narrative of the time and tells a story more in line with the strong emotional ties or philosophical debates of a "God loves man kills" or a Dark Phoenix saga. And that the book should be the thing that really sets the tones for the major characters and the franchise. I mean No More Humans was a HUGE let down...but really considering what it could've done with it's premise and it could've been the culmination or the climax of the entire Bendis/Post Schism Era for X-titles by asking characters (and most importantly Cyclops) if the mutants would be better off without humans.

@acer51: I don't think the discussion was meant to say we should actively seek to tell stories about these darker elements. But more to question how we can improve upon when they are brought up. And even then if we really should or need to?

Take for instance the destruction of Genosha. It is an act of genocide and mass destruction of what was the first mutant nation and the home to thousands of their kind. But beyond being motivation for a few character changes (Polaris's breakdown and renegade attitude, Xavier and Magneto's guilt at not doing more) it has very little effect and exploration in the story beyond the initial arc beyond being "another mutant tragedy". Would it be wrong to take the time to really explore the tragedy and the scope of an attack on a people and it's effects both emotionally and politically within the world? And if not then how far should we go in that exploration? what limits? It's already a part of canon, so why not really milk it until we've got the most interesting story from it.

@koays: I really don't like the Ultimate Universe line, not because its not good just because it seems like more to keep up with. I normally only track the main 616 universe and hell i dont even read DC because when big events, cross overs, ect ect come it gets to be too much. So imo i think keeping it all in one universe is better, and thats why i believe separating the books is better now that doesnt mean the less gritty books would be bad, like you pointed out alot of them have been great reads. They also have taken on gritty points I just think they can shy away from them a little more so it is good for kids to read without parents being OMG i dont want all this blood and death for my kids blah blah. You know not going around having the good guys kill people idk just general stuff. sorry this is hard to type on my cell phone ill have a better post later lol

I sort of feel the same about Ultimate X-men; while it seemed like a fairly creative way to reintroduce the characters for a generation that was exposed to more explicit themes in media, and while it did have it's moments to me it always seemed like a failed experiment going further off the tracks as it went because it seemed to lack the silly charm that gave the original comics so much of their character.

As for a happy medium, I'm inclined to think that X-men really fell into it's happy medium in the 80's (and early 90's) and, in the main series anyway, has mostly stayed there. Stuff like God Loves, Man Kills, the original New Mutants series, the original Genosha story-line, etc.. these stories did deal with more mature themes, albeit in a non-explicit and fairly black-and-white way, but were all still suitable to give to children.

I'm sort of inclined to think that was really where the standard was set.. (you see it in Morison and Whedon's homages as well, though I actually think of them as being less dark on the whole than Claremont's original run).. where you have themes like violent bigotry, murder, extreme child abuse, and even (non-explicit) rape put into contexts that not only can a child understand, but are still largely lighthearted and inviting enough to still be actually fun despite having some pretty dark themes.

The bigger argument for me is that, when you have characters who've dealt with traumatic abuse, like Karma or Magik or Rogue, how much can you realistically deal with the emotional effects of those things before the stories become to unsettling for a child to be expected to/interested in dealing with? For good or ill, these stories do lie in the realm of fantasy, so I think there's an element of escapism that's intrinsic to their appeal; so is it socially irresponsible to deal with these themes on what's essentially a sort of surface level, or is dealing with them on a more realistic level simply not the job of escapist fantasy?

...

that's X-men proper, anyway.. and I guess my feelings are that if a book says X-men on the cover, a kid of any age should be able to read it without being challenged more than they can be expected to handle; if kids can't enjoy X-men comics, that's when they're no longer performing what I consider their primary function.

Does that mean I think that there shouldn't be more challenging and complex themes dealt with for the sake of mature readers? No, obviously lots of X-fans are adults and can both handle and want to be challenged in this way, but to my mind that's why we have things like David's X-Factor or the more contemporary iterations of X-Force, which I feel most readers won't be drawn to unless/until they already have some familiarity with the X-men proper. Like, X-men itself should be for any age, where X-force and X-factor are perhaps better looked at/utilized as X-men for advanced readers or something, which is sort of how it works out anyway.

Well, Marvel and DC comics are supposed to be basically for all ages, so, I don't see any reason for the material to all of the sudden be NC-17 rated. It also depends on a writers capability. A good writer can explore more adult themes without being extremely heavy handed....in fact, I hate heavy handedness "hey look, Drugs!! We are telling a story about Drugs!! be blown away by this subject matter!!"

Anyways, as @oldnightcrawler expressed in their post, Claremont touched upon all sorts of subjects under the guise of the science fiction/ fantasy stories; Magik's backstory is sort of analogue for child abuse, with her "fighting her demons" metaphorically and quite literally, and something like Genosha being a sensationalized version of the Apartheid laws in South Africa...I am willing to bet a large majority of X-Men fans are even aware of things like that, and that's fine, as I said, it's within the writers ability to have a great story while being able to maybe educate or deal with more mature subjects, and not have that stuff be the ultimate focus and still have it appear like a fun story that is accessible for all ages.

New Mutants started out as a spin off to make more money due to the X-Mens popularity. The first 10 or so issues are more like a weird, after school special, but it isn't devoid of any adult themes. In fact, the earlier issues have racist Hellfire guards mowing down Dani Moonstars cougar and grandfather, Sunspots girlfriend getting shot, and Stevie Hunter getting stalked by a boy who is a victim of child abuse. Then as the series goes on and Bill Sinkewiecz joins, it becomes quite obvious that Jim Shooter let Claremont off the leash as almost every story that comes out of New Mutants has something to with some pretty dark material. The reason it was so successful was likely due to having kids being subjected to or being the centric characters in stories about darker, harsher realities of the world was a more attractive premise than older, super heroes experiencing things. Claremont touched upon everything in his original New Mutants run...from racism, to drug use, to morality, to religion....and since Claremont created nearly all the characters the New Mutants series, and didn't have to endure as much editorial interference with the series not being as popular, I would say that series was more "his" than the X-Men was. Then later Louise Simonson turned it into a kids book, but yeah, those are just some of my thoughts on the heavily under rated original New Mutants series....it's a shame that most of those characters are just caricatures of what they once were.

That's always been an issue with comic books, writers want to have these big dramatic events but would prefer to more or less pretend they never happened after the fact.

@koays: Ehh... I think this where the metaphors can be used just like what was mentioned about Genosha. Hell if you look at the time period when the xmen came on the scene many of the themes and characters reflected social issues of the time. Genosha should have been delved into even deeper. It still could. I want to see story that encompasses some of the Cuba-Fidel Castro stuff of the 70's and 80's where he dumped criminals on the coast of Florida. Its just unfortunate that before we could really see the repercussions of that we were heading into a mega-event. I'm not saying we harp on this stuff but it comes up so tackle it..you know. I mean when does the local news try to be little kid friendly?? This is why having a category of books for kids to grow up on fits at least in my opinion. I'm almost certain that the majority of consumers when it comes to comics are not the little kids. Especially the generations after those of us who grew up during the 80's and 90's. Most of them don't care to read period. I've got a 4 year old and a 7 year old. I let them read/or look at my tpb's and my boy loves Spiderman while my girl loves Squirrel Girl. I get them those plus Mickey Mouse, Looney Tunes, Minions, and Little Marvel. Its like 8 or 9 books on my pull list just for them.They watch the Avengers cartoon on TV and love the Xmen TAS as well WATX cartoon. Also Power Rangers and Xmen Evolution they watched some but not like TAS. My point is that there is plenty of material for the kids so do we need to go out of the way to dumb things down just to be kid friendly? My girl who's 7 picked up Aaron's WATX and said she didn't like it because she didn't see Jean or Cyclops or Storm or Rogue or Jubilee, but she saw some kid with a big blue mouth, another kid with horns, some little devils as she called them, a boy with pink hair and the grass had a mouth and eyes. She said it was stupid and wasn't Xmen show she put it down. Maybe that's just my kid but Aaron went to the extreme with silliness and said it was for kids, maybe some kids liked it but overall the run was horrible and not enough liked it for it to keep going soooo....yyyyeeeeaaaa.

Bottom line I don't think there should be agendas pushed, just tell good stories, good complete stories that capture emotion and the fall out from events. Writers shouldn't be afraid to go deep. I shouldn't be getting more from message boards and interviews about what was happening than in the actual story

ew, totally disagree.

I think you're confusing the mediocre-bad writing we've seen in the main continuity stuff as being "for children", but some of (if not all) the best X-men stories already are suitable for children.

@koays: when jean grey's power first started, it drove her to be crazy and depressed(they should explore that more). Also when she killed herself to stop dark phoenix, she got to have some kind of mental illness, cause that just not right. Also i know alot of people who have mental illness it was not written well in the x-books. then it wasnt her so she mustn't be crazy???? i dont think thats how it works

Agreed. Let's see more muscle shirts with bare arms, and v necks. Totally down for that stylistic choice.

Gallery

Bump

My opinion hasn't changed. I still want more half-naked men.

@sprior93: I admire your conviction