@tristanheron: now it sounds like HYDRA but with mutants lolz

It's faulty writing, that's all. In the 1980s when Apocalypse was written rather well and he was a viable threat, he went toe to toe with the likes of Loki and just talked shit to him the whole time. He can be recognized a major villain without being "the X-Men's Darkseid", like so many people insist on.

The Twelve was a stupid crossover that just showed the writers of that time had kind of swept previous stories under the rug. Originally the twelve had nothing to do with Apocalypse, aside from him being one of them, the Twelve were what Mastermold was hunting.

I see no problem with Apocalypse being like his original 80s version--a smug jerk with radical views on evolution, operates from a giant alien ship, and has advanced control over his molecules which makes him incredibly hard to defeat. No Ancient Egypt cliches, no resuscitation chambers, no future warlord crap. Just a villain to take the place of being the primary X-Men foe for a while.

@cattlebattle: Then again, he (allegedly) fulfills the role of being the biggest baddest mutant of them all. Most primary x-men villains below him are either dead or good(ish) guys and the ones above him are just crazy people. The writers have done terribly with him lately except for his three best portrayals (Messiah War, Ultimate X-men, and the main Secret Wars series). My whole thing is making any one of THAT guy the main Apocalypse. Make him pissed off Thor/Hulk level and give him some weakness so he's beatable, but no more jobbing and no more confusing strong/weak talk (he lost how many times and STILL called himself strong)

I say bring him back but bring him back with nothing. Make a story of him earning his spot back.

@masterofevil: I feel like we are talking about two different things here.

I am saying that Apocalypse doesn't need to be what people want him to be. The Ultimate X-Men version of Apocalypse is just like an "end boss" character that all the characters teamed up to fight. I think that's boring and I much prefer the 80s version of Apocalypse.

Where you are saying that you like the Thanos wannabe version and you want to restore him to something of that level by giving him some sort of feats or story that presents him like that.

@cattlebattle: well we can agree that the 616 version is crap and should be changed. I really do get what you're saying. You (and @tristanheron) would like him to be do more of this:

The douchebag crazy smart villain who's the super-genius like he is stated to be and can manipulate almost anyone into doing his bidding whether they know it or not. The guy who wins even when he loses.

Meanwhile, I say he can be this:

The literal example of what makes humans afraid of mutants. The near immortal badass no one wants to mess with unless absolutely necessary. The self-proclaimed king of the hill with the power to back it up.

That being said, he could be both. Like after all the plans and henchmen fall apart (due to him being the bad guy who must lose), he himself could get hands on.

Mr. Fantastic beats Apocalypse in a very One Piece inspired bit featuring a long fall, a big stretch, a massive slam and about 15 high powered space lasers all focused on a single spot. If it wasn't for Forge and Xorn Reed would have died as well

Thor as this point is currently consolidating his power as the King of Asgard and can't be reached but the Avengers, X-Men (and subsiquent teams), Spider-Man, HfH, Daredevil, Deadpool and nearly every other hero in the US is engaging with Apocalypse's genetically engineered army of freaks (which is a distraction so that his army of spies lead by Mystique can steal the nuclear codes of every nation on Earth but the launch was thwarted by Mr. Fantastic activating a planet wide computer freeze device... comicbooks)

Magneto does remain a villain, tragically unable to trust humanity because the worst anti-mutant bigots often prove him right. However he and Prof. X are currently dead because Apocalypse, wanting to get rid of the X-Men, kidnapped both and fused them together into Onslaught. Onslaught was ultimately killed by Jean channeling the Phoenix Force through Cyclops while Erik and Charles fought the monster form the inside.

And finally Doom is facing an existential crisis at the moment because of an earlier adventure where he and the FF stumble into an alternate universe where Earth is Doom's perfect paradise minus the ego and lack of free will with the only major difference being that this world's Doom was never consumed by jealousy over Reed and has been a member of the Fantastic Five as an unambiguous hero since its foundation. So our Doom is currently locked away in his castle reevaluating his life.

@cattlebattle: Sorry for the unclear comparison. When I said "like Thanos" I meant that as far as Earth is concerned, Apocalypse is THE biggest bad guy around, even more so than Dr. Doom and he menaces every hero and team at some point.

Like MCU Thanos in a sense of scale and threat rather than how he operates. If anything I'd have Apocalypse be more active than Thanos and be willing to get his hands dirty trying to incite war between humans, mutants and enhanced, dicking with people to further his scheme's latest plot point, keeping his rivals like Doom, Loki, Baron Mordo and Magneto in check and mess around with so many people no one can get a bead on him until it's too late. Meanwhile Thanos prefers to stay in the background and draw as little attention as possible, kind of like the villain protagonist of his own adventure series until either his scheme is complete or he's pulled into something bigger.

The only reason Thanos is bigger is because he operates on a cosmic scale while as far as Apocalypse is concerned the universe begins and ends on Earth... and as far as he's concerned he already rules Earth, this is just about deciding who deserves to live on it.

(It also hurts that I'm not as familiar with Apocalypse as say Magneto or Mystique. I just think he's a cool villain.)

@masterofevil: I think the key is that his plan has to be more than just an extinction event, because the X-Men will stop it and he will look weak.

Kill em all and move on, X-Men are old news, they're done son

But nah seriously, after all the crazy head bashing bullsh!t they've been through over the years, not only with mutant struggles, but with magic, time travel, adventures with aliens in space, and g@d d@mn vampires, to bring about something that the fans won't rage (ok, will only kind of rage, it is X-Men fans) you'd need to really boil the X-Men down to their essence, and focus on essentials that fans loved.

You can either go full reboot, and bring them back to the original 5 and the professor, then in time introduce other characters fans love like Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, Shadowcat, Nightcrawler, Emma Frost, Psylocke, Rogue, Magik, maybe newer characters that people dig like Anole and Glob.

Or have them have been established for a few years, having the original 5, and those other characters that would work well. That way they have somewhat of a history, and don't need to spend as much time retreading old ground, while still keeping things new enough for someone to jump on, and for fresh stories to be told

Maybe also show that there are world wide institutes for mutants, each branch with different uniforms, which explains why characters like Storm, Nightcrawler, and Colossus have looks that differ from the usual yellow and black/blue.

Either way after all the baggage has been shaved away, focus on telling stories that are relevant to the X-Men, and the conflicts they deal with. Look at what works for those stories, and what just makes things a big unnecessary mess. Very little to no space travel or magic, only use time travel for stories that can really help emphasize the message of what discrimination can do to people and the world, no vampires, and try not to go overboard with powers. Experimentation and mutates are fine, just have a plan so things don't get too confusing. Focus a lot on the school/teen aspect of the institute. Try and draw a bit of inspiration from every animated series the X-Men have had, each has good ideas and set a tone for who they are and what they are. Draw on Marvels as well, the entire comic is about how people view the different "Marvels" if their universe, heroes, villains, and mutants, and how they can see them as saviors or demons. One of the big problems with X-Men comics is other heroes being celebrated, while they are feared, and Marvels helps set a reasonable tone for the mindset of citizens in the Marvel universe. Don't have too many X-Men books, and don't be afraid of having them interact with Avengers, the Fantastic Four, or Spider-Man, they should not feel like their own universe, they should be fluid enough to focus on their own stories, while still being a part of Marvel proper.

I could go on, but I think I covered enough

@captainmarvel4ever: Damn that sounds good. Surprised to hear such good ideas from a mutant hater like yourself. :p

@darkdetective27: Well, of course the best plan is still to murderize them and move on with our happy mutant free lives

@tristanheron: such as?

@captainmarvel4ever: Sick bastard. You're no better than Stryker. :p

@darkdetective27: I take that as a compliment, that man is a hero on par with Superman or Captain America

@captainmarvel4ever: Such a hero he snapped his own wifes neck because the child she gave birth to was a mutant. The world needs more people like that. >_>

@darkdetective27:

The world needs more people like that. >_>

Exactly :D

@captainmarvel4ever: You're really terrible at picking up sarcasm.

@darkdetective27: Did I miss you finding some new way to insult those dirty muties?

@masterofevil: Apocalypse could do this himself or get his human and mutant followers to do it.

- Inciting and encouraging war and genocide

- Toppling governments and creating civil unrest and anarchy

- Dismantling the support structures of the weak e.g. hospitals, aged care, police and other essential services

- Destroy public utilities and food supplies

- Create new diseases

- Cause smaller non-extinction event "natural" disasters

@tristanheron: Well yeah he could they that but eventually the xmen would find him (because it's comics). He would need to defend himself in case there were no more henchmen. And he would need more than persuasion powers for the telepathic people.

@captainmarvel4ever: Nicely said man... I mean about handling the X-Men Universe not the anti-mutant stuff.

Just take away everything Bendis has done to the franchise and I wouldn't do much else. Rearranging the X-Men's origins should be kept for Alternate Universes.

@mutant_god: Exactly. Uncanny X-men Vol 3 was damn awful in every aspect. They didn't even bother matching the covers and the premises to what was actually happening. And I'm still pissed about Matthew Malloy.

@westfriesianman: That's why it just fixed instead. Honestly, they undo the hole they dug for themselves in one or two comics. All they need to do is get rid of the terrigen cloud and bring back some fan favorites/make more interesting characters. From there it would be about getting good writers

@westfriesianman: Even better, throw non x-men enemies at them. Personally, I'd give Abomination an upgrade and have the xmen fight that just cuz they could expand their relationships with the characters that way. Right the xmen are in a kind of box of their own problems.

@cattlebattle: Apocalypse is a god-like mutant but in power, not philosophy.

The movie version was terrible

@jericobg: Cuz he was doing near godlike acts instead of implying that he could do them? That makes no sense

@masterofevil: What?

@jericobg: you were saying Apocalypse is godlike in philosophy, not power and that the movie version was terrible. That version actually had the philosophy and the power back it up, unlike what we see in the comics.

@masterofevil: Comic Apocalypse had greater power but he never saw himself in the "god/ father" cliche. Movie Apocalypse had the philiosophy yet was pretty weak.

I'll come back later to fully flesh out my thoughts, but for now I'll say that I'd put everything X-Men and mutant related in a separate universe from the rest of Marvel. I'll be honest, the X-Men films being separate from the other Marvel films has made it seem weird for me for predominantly X-Men characters to interact with everyone else in the comics. I just don't feel they belong together anymore. The two being in the same universe has also led to some weird inconsistencies IMO. For example, as Cyclops said, why is it that when the Avengers or the F4 or Spider-Man saves the day, people cheer, yet when mutants, who are also superhuman but simply get their powers from another source, do so they are viewed with fear and figuratively chased with pitchforks and torches?

@hocko1999_virus:

Exactly why they need to be separate. In the comics, it's easily explained. People like Daredevil and Spider-Man because they were accidents. They chose to save the world by being victims.

People admire Thor because he's well a god.

People don't admire people that were born that way. They fear it. They have had it all their lives and hid it. The propaganda tells them that they disguise as humans. Trask described the human looking mutants as pink haired, skinny freakshows. Which is what Kid Omega chose to look.

Don't you think that giving Mutants their own Country would ruin it for all the kids that could dream of waking up one day and being a mutant with extraordinary powers?

@microsoft: What?

Making the mutants a actually minority group with their own country would ruin the idea that anybody could be a mutant. Or, could anybody still be a mutant in this reboot?

@microsoft: No, it doesn't. Anybody could still be born a mutant, but a large number of them would immigrate to a place where they could live without being ostracized, like Genosha.

Why are so many people against a reboot? They ignore continuity anyway. Might as well reboot it.

People fear change.

@david_james: Good question

@david_james: I think fans feel cheated. They have spent a long time reading the comics and feel like they have gone through all the problems and changes with the characters. To then reboot, it feels as though that journey has been wasted (even though it hasn't really).

Most of the changes and developments of the characters over the years have been under minded at some point anyways.

First thing I would do is get X-men rid of the avengers/inhumans and put them in a separate reality. Same with most of street levelers if possible.

@cattlebattle: That's true, but many characters have changed over time, at least in broad strokes. Fans also appreciate little things that reference continuity.

I don't really mind if they reboot, but I understand why some fans would be annoyed if they did.

Because Ultimate X-men. Because "architects" that will take over will probably lack the talent AND nuance Claremont incorporated into the roots of this franchise. Without those aspects the franchise is as good as dead. Some of us just realize that.

That said, I'd love to see what Joshua Dysart could've done with something like Ultimate X-men. That could be... the Ultimate test for my argument.

@adamtrmm: Ultimate X-Men was trying to be somthing different and unique. A real reboot would probably be more faithful to the original versions.

? Ultimate X-men suffered a lot because it actually tried to do the exact same X-men, only modernized, angsty and kinda Millarish, but not even Millarish enough. That can be considered good of course (if you read The Authority, which was "edgy" for the sake of it) or not really (if you read Ultimates 1 and 2 because those were f@ckin gold). Point is, the whole run was a rework of the main one, only reality tv tropes inspired, which simply can't be good by any known definition. I mean, even the reworks it did were simply inferior to the main ones, from Phoenix and Weapon X, to Apocalypse/Sinister and Mojo or whatever the hell that crap was. Wood did some interesting developments, but even then it wasn't good enough and way to rushy. These days with the big 2 you simply can't have the amount of panel time for relevant and explanatory expositions, the world-building as a direction is statistically a failure from get go. Proof? See Ultimate-verse and New 52.

@adamtrmm: Ultimate X-Men made major changes to every charecter. The main complaint that I've heard about it is that everyone was a asshole. They made major changes to all of the antagonists. Sinister, Arcade, Fenris, Apocalypse, Proteus, Omega Red, Nimrod. Magneto was a completely different charecter. Probably the closest thing we've seen to a "pure evil" incarnation of him.

The X-Men themselves had little to nothing in common with their 616 counterparts. Wolverine probably had the most in common. What did 616 Cyke have in common with Ultimate Cyclops other than his power set, dating Jean Grey, and being leader? Some charecters only existed in small cameos, like Jubilee and Wolfsbane. They turned Cable into Wolverine. Bishop was alive in the current timeline. Dazzler and Angel were completely different charecters.

These people were not the X-Men we knew, because they were not trying to be. During the run of the Ultimate Universe one of the main appeals to it was to see who was going to get "Ultimatized" this month.

New 52 failed because they tried to copy Ultimate Marvel, which didn't sound like a bad idea considering in 2006 Ultimate Marvel was as big as Star wars comics are today. But since they stopped using the mainstream versions, it pissed people off. What they should of done was a fresh take that was true to the charecters roots.

The fact that they weren't the exact copies doesn't make them any less thematically pretty much the same. Apoc the first mutant, Mags the mutie terrorist, Mojo the super reality tv allegory, etc. Just because there were no original five or second genesis doesn't mean that at the core characters are basically the same. Until Wood I can't even think about a character that was completely new and not just an AU version. Hell, Age of X Basilisk was more unique than Ultimate Cyclops, but that just throwing a random example from the top of my head, because I dig this version lol anyway, how what you mention for Cyclops makes him anyhow distinct when it's the core of his world and character? And then some on. Rivalry with Wolvie over Jean even? Check. Same tropes, same relative, same niche really. Just because you're pointing out difference in details doesn't make the large picture any less similar. The world that hates and fears them just because tagline, hell, they couldn't live past that sh!t even when the world was informed of their artificial existence. So, same unreasonable idiotic humans? Still check! I mean, even Beast got blued :p

These people were not the X-Men we knew, because they were not trying to be. During the run of the Ultimate Universe one of the main appeals to it was to see who was going to get "Ultimatized" this month.

We might have different ideas of what does this one means, care to elaborate?

New 52 failed because they tried to copy Ultimate Marvel, which didn't sound like a bad idea considering in 2006 Ultimate Marvel was as big as Star wars comics are today. But since they stopped using the mainstream versions, it pissed people off. What they should of done was a fresh take that was true to the charecters roots.

I have a different idea of why it failed, and that would be a really detailed one. Sadly, I don't have much time for that so will save that for another day. What I will say though, Justice League was a selling juggernaut for almost two whole years, that's a feat on it's own inside the current tricky market I'd say, when JLA before that was rockin the 50Ks. Point is, they lost their way not only due to alienating the old guard, there were other problems consisting of quite a couple of factors. But regarding this sentence:

But since they stopped using the mainstream versions, it pissed people off. What they should of done was a fresh take that was true to the charecters roots.

They did for with Superman, and you know how fans named him after? Superjerk. There are no simple truths my man.