Before we start, I am not a homophobe.

I had a wide discussion with some X-Men fans that supported Bobby being gay.

I said that Bobby is gay but Bendis retconned it because he saw an opportunity to build more story. They ranted and said that there were "hints". No actual facts were given, only assumptions. I gave them multiple facts and reasons why Bobby was not gay before Bendis took over.

Northstar could tell when someone was gay, Iceman was not. They used the same comic to their defense by saying that Annie said "Maybe he doesn't know yet". She was clearly trying to push away Iceman and cheer up Northstar because she said "Sorry about that" afterwards.

Iceman constantly thought of his girlfriends. He didn't just publicly state his affection, he constantly THOUGHT about them. No gay man does that.

Stan Lee, the creator himself, stated that Iceman was never gay.

Louise Simonson even gave him a girlfriend just to prove he was not gay.

Multiple writers did.

Northstar had ACTUAL hints.

" Good.. She doesn't know EVERYTHING about me" and Aurora told him " You, of all people, shouldn't judge my love life!" The original creator, John Byrne had intended him to be gay. Thus being confirmed by the creator himself.

Iceman marries Kitty Pryde in a future and has children with her. Rachel, who is a telepath and Kitty's invasive friend, didn't tell Kitty that she married a gay man? She let her live a lie with someone that didn't love her?

Bobby also sacrificed himself for Darkstar because he had feelings for her.

My point is that it was a RETCON of Iceman always being gay not a CONFIRMATION.

Opinions?

Everyone knows Iceman being gay is BS and it was just done to boost comic sales.

One of my favorite Iceman stories was when he introduced his Asian girlfriend to his racist parents.

@immolation said:

Let me guess... When inhumans stop being a thing, one of the first things they do is have Iceman introduce a gender swapped version of that same GF to his parents.

Iceman's sexuality was changed to sell comic books and gain attention. It contributed nothing to the character and trivialized the lbgt agenda.

There's no discussion worth having. It was a poor decision done in bad taste by a bad comic book writer.

I finally have somebody on my point of view..

@jericobg: I totally understand your opinion and I get that a vast majority of X-readers are anti-Bendis (especially in this case), but I think Iceman's outing might've been a revelation for his character. Even in the age we live in, there are still closeted lgbt people. Adults married with kids believing themselves to have dug a hole too deep to climb out of, living an idealized life in line with family tradition or religious oppression. Bobby's upbringing by a bigot father could've backed him into dense wall of denial. Although he had relationships with women (Opal, Polaris, Darkstar, Marge Smith), they never really seemed to work out. (maybe a lack of sexual compatibility?) You're gonna say I'm stretching there. I am, but am I, really?). Emma Frost strutted around in his icicle noggin for a bit and dropped some brash innuendos of gay stereotypes when they next crossed paths. He was uncomfortable around Northstar and made sure he knew he wasn't gay. I mean, let's just put the carrot in the snowman, give him his top hat and let him be on his Mary way.

@thunderscream: Just to but in here.... But the problem with that logic, and really the problem with how it was executed, is that you can apply that logic to any character.

Saying "a hint that Iceman is gay was that he had many failed relationships with women, which real life closeted men often do" doesn't work because at the end of the day it's a stereotype. Wolverine, Spiderman...hell the Human Torch...they all fit it. And the way it was executed starts a bad trend where we can go from that too "Wolverine being gay makes sense because he attempted to be overtly masculine around other men, but whenever he was around women or alone he was softer and more introverted like some real life closeted men". The problem being, you can't use a stereotype to justify a change after the fact. It's like saying (bad example coming soon) a person has a skin disease and then going through years of their medical history and a report from a teacher saying they don't like to sit for long periods and going "Ha, you see evidence that they always had it!". It's not how medicine or writing works.

As easily as you can point to failed relationships as evidence in support, I can point to his reaction to the failures. His break up with Polaris and his role in that love triangle with Havoc and the Nurse not pointing to someone who was frustrated with his inability to succeed in a certain sexuality....but someone who was legitimately pissed that he had someone he loved stolen and wanted to find a way to get her back. And the fact that his relationship with Mystique was his rebound from that and seemed (at least early on) to be based on attraction adds to that point.

It doesn't make either my point or yours more valid then the others....and the reality that there isn't some handbook that says "here is how gay people act" proves that it shouldn't. But the fact that it was done in such a way that basically said "Yea he's gay...he's always known he was gay. He's been acting straight to get a sense of normalcy" leaves little to no room for the argument or discussion as though it was seriously examined and thought through....when really it was just bs to sell a comic.

If they wanted to say Bobby liked guys as well as girls...well thats one thing (and it would explain things like Emma's words). But they didn't. They changed him and implied that it made sense all along because of something that happens to real people...when it doesn't fit, and it implies that a guy in his 30s who makes jokes and has had failed relationships needs to question their sexuality.,,,which is insulting to both hetero and homosexuals who struggle through life.

I never had a problem with Bobby being gay. Maybe because I was never a big fan of the charecter. I agree that the way Bendis went about it was very badly written, though.

I don't think it is impossible. I used to know this girl that cheated on her boyfriend while he was in Iraq. When he found out about it he became insanely jealous and they broke up. He became borderline suicidal depressed and acted like he desperately wanted to be with her again, and they did eventually get back together for a little while. Anyway, years later this guy comes out of the closet. I never knew the guy, I learned all of this through the woman.

You would think that they would give a better reason for Bobby staying in the closet for so long. His parents were already shown to be racist, maybe they should be homophobic as well.

I hear you on the first part, but I'm not trying to say all funny guys with bad lady luck are gay. I'm gay. My partner was married and came out in his 30s. Just saying, it happens. I'm not justifying the O5 intrusion. I'm not trying to sniff out things that aren't there. It may not have been approached in the right way or for the right reasons, but he's here and he's out and I think it's great. I know you completely disagree and I respect your opinion. (and for some reason I say that last part in my head in a Canadian accent. Eh?)

@immolation: fluid sexuality. It exist..... and would make more sense then the explanation we got.

@thunderscream: He wasn't uncomfortable around Northstar. He went to grab dinner with him. What was the innuendo, "interior decorating"?

He just frosted ger office with ice. That's why she said that he used his mutant power to pursue his first love: interior decorating.

He's a cryokinetic, he can't hide his sexuality from others.

@thunderscream: Respect...exceptthe Canadian part. As a New Yorker that level of politeness is unnerving.

@koays: Never heard of it, but I Googled it. All of the gay people that I've known of to come out of the closet claimed to of always been gay, but was just ashamed or scared to admit it for whatever reason.

Anyway, it don't sound like it would make sense for the situation with Iceman. Maybe for one of them, but not both of them at the same time.

@immolation:

Basically

Okay, I'm not homophobic or anything . First of all, I'm very open-minded. Let me start by saying I have nothing against minorities. BUT

GRRGHH!! I hate Marvel, why don't they create new character but mess with the existing ones!!! PC sucks!!! Damn SJW's ruining everything. Established characteeers! ESTABLISHED I say!! You can't change that. EVER.

This just alienates the target they are trying to reach. Black people don't like existing characters changing to black and gay people hate stuff like Iceman. They were ESTABLISHED!!

I also know everything about every gay person ever. No gay person does these stuff. All the gay people fit into the stuff I mentioned. Stupid Marvel should just hire me. I have all the answers! I would just leave ALREADY EXISTING characters alone. I mean who is going to read Thor Odinson when my new female character who is herald level debuts, right?

Teen Iceman is gay.

This.

I don't mind their sexual preference, but haven't you people noticed Marvel is making the X-m as a HUGE joke? X-m are no longer X-M and with the upcoming book of "Death of X" you can pretty much get the picture that there would be no...........X-M. Most of them are dead. Marvel are into Inhumans and Avengers and not X-m. Sad, but true. One reason to hate FOX.

@hellic: lol well your not right or wrong about Death of X. They aren't really ending the X-men...just rubbing in the poor treatment by continuing the cross over story with Inhumans

That said..why hate fox? Marvel makes money off of every X-men movie ticket sold. They get free promotion and the opportunity to further cash in with tie ins and action figure lines. They CHOOSE not to. Because they want MORE money. And they would rather make less money and screw over Fox by being unsupportive of the X-men property then fairly negotiate or compromise.

50+ years of being straight, retconned to fit under Marvel's social agenda.

I only wish the Marvel writers and editors had some respect for the character.

Fox can't make X-M right. We already know that Bryan Singer failed to pay much attention to the source material during the making of X-Men. I'm seeing a ton of characters added with no rhyme or reason to it. They don't follow the comics or timelines. Everything about the X-M is wrong. Fox making Johnny Storm into a black African guy was more than enough to see how Fox doesn't care about comics (reason why FF was canceled). Fox only making Marvel mad and it's the reason why we barely see X tittles like we used to. Everything is about Inhumans, which Fox don't own the rights to. There are already number of icons (characters) that Marvel killed and all just to get back at Fox. I hate Fox because they don't really care about comic (and what's canon) and never follow the comic's mythology. WE as fans are the one suffering and getting the stick up our *** you know what I mean. This is why I hate Singer. He will never be in the same league as Raimi, Whedon, Nolan, and Snyder. SINGER is a douche I vowed to never see any movie of his after he revealed himself to be a turncoat and go direct shitty SUPERMAN RETURNS. We all will just have to wait for Fox to lose the license to X-M and Marvel gets it back, then we'll see good renditions of the movie....

First off I work for the New York State government. I was there the night they passed the Marriage Equality Act in 2011 that allowed same sex partners to get married in the state of NY. This is one of my proudest moments in a ten year carer. So I understand the progressiveness that this character change can have. Though for me it was completely out of character. This along with the retcon of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch led to me canceling all my comicbook subscriptions. I have been a Marvel reader since the 4th grade. I literately lost many nights of sleep over this character change because I just could not buy it. Every time I sat down to read a book I just ended up sad and depressed. The constant character assassinations and treatment of established characters makes it hard for me to get invested in any new heros. What is to stop them from treating them like the old ones. I have been reading the forums here for months, looking for signs of improvement. All I can say is that I am still reading.

@hellic: Wow...uh. OK let's start with a few basic things.

1. What movie has ever followed the comic mythology?

2. Are you aware of the major positive influence the X-men movies have had on the X-men comics? The entire school concept as it currently is known didn't exist prior to the X-men movies which is more impact then an entire Era of books had prior to that.

3. What makes you think that Marvel would do anything worthwhile after getting the rights back? In comics or in movies...they've taken a creative stance that doesn't compliment the X-men. Fox has just taken the stance that they make movies.

4. Was Fox's X-men really that bad? I mean it exist in a grounded semi-realistic universe. How does that offend?

According to long time X-Men writer Chris Claremont, they do a good job of translating his message to film.

Marvel gets 15% of the profit from the X-Men movies. If they're getting mad, that only shows how petty they are.

@immolation: The time of just being grateful to see a comic book character on the big screen is over. Compelling stories need to be told. Good acting needs to be employed. Not treating the source material with respect or treating it like it's a joke needs to stop. We, as fans, ought not except that any longer. If a Director or a Studio wants dick around with story lines or characters that we the fans truly care about we have to let them know in real and concrete ways. We wont acknowledge their movies and we wont pay to see their product.

In the end if a Marvel movie from FOX or Sony is not profitable they won't continue to make any more (it happened with Spider man). And if they choose to stop making these movies we know the rights to the characters we love will go back to a studio that will do them justice. And isn't that what we really want in the first place?

Claremont is the least to speak since him himself is atrocious for the Marvel's fan. Not all are such a fan of This man so called "good writer" There are way more better writers out there. Claremont is labeled as Singer as sucksass

@hellic: You obviously responded to quick to of actually watched the video.

That's because I've seen this vid before. Not interested...

@immolation: we tried.

@hellic: It is no use. They will defend Fox productions no matter the facts.

I see. I guess I won't argue other than to stand by the facts that Fox suck lol

Marvel can't even get their own source material straight.

Mandarin, anyone? Ultron created by Stark, founding Avengers missing to be replaced by Scarlett and Quicksilver?

And what evidence do I have to believe Marvel will do right by characters like Wolverine or Deadpool, because best case scenario they get shafted to Netflix and I'm not down with that.

@ultra_beleco: Depends. You lodge a legitimate complaint and you will get a legitimate answer. Say something like "it's not like the source material" and I'm going to question you because as an adaptation it has the freedom to explore and portray things in different ways.

I mean if you wanna be mad about Jubilee and Psylocke getting shafted in the first trilogy...sure legit complaint. You wanna say your mad because Quicksilver was in Days of Future Past? I'm gonna critique you because your missing the fact that he was entertaining and added to the movie and overall more effectively written then Quicksilver in the MCU so your complaint is outweighed by the use of the character. And really some of the complaints were about not liking the director...which isn't something that can be argued about since it seemed more personal then critical.

You guys are mad about the MCU not having the X-men. But for most of us? "Nothing we like about the X-men has anything to do with the rest of Marvel."

And as someone who has read and enjoyed the X-men across multiple media.. Animation, film and multiple universes and writers....I'm open to people interpreting the source material differently. Maybe Lady Deathstrike and Yukio are the same person to make a story more complex between Storm and Wolverine. Maybe Xavier and Magneto killed a guy to protect kid Cyclops and that lead to the ideal split. In the end how the characters get somewhere and what they do once they are there doesn't matter. As long as the spirit remains...Fox has done well with that in their X-Men movies as of late...Marvel as of late though doesn't even have the spirit of the team in the source material. So I have no faith.

I will never understand the whole "the Fox movies are not accurate!! argument. The Marvel produced films aren't even accurate. I mean, in the comics, Thor is a magical demi-god who wears a silly helmet and is the penultimate fish out of water who says stuff like "have at thee!!" regularly.....in the films, he is just a sexy Superman with a hammer and a British accent. And of course.....lets not forget Heimdall being of Sub Saharn descent as a member of Nordic culture and Asgard being defended by laser turrets and attacked by elves brandishing grenades that create mini black holes......you know how many times that stuff happened in the comics. So AKURATE!!! WUTS WRING WIT U FOXX????

I have lost all faith in the movie version of the X-Men. Directors and their vision of what the X-Men supposed to be, they've totally killed it for me. I'll remain loyal to the comic version, nuff said...

True the Avengers are the closes to be when it comes to comic. The team is perfect. Their power set are perfect. Their stories are perfect because Marvel did Iron Man Justice and so was Avengers.

I want to see Fox lose the rights and not make anymore movies. But we know that will never happen as long as the nerds feel compelled to see every shitty superhero movie that comes out.

Dear FOX: Hand over the X-Men franchise slowly.

Yes. Fox needs to give the X-Men rights back to Marvel. Even tho Marvel sold them to Fox and became petty when fox wouldn't agree to a deal where they get to keep Daredevil(a charecter they already purchased) in exchange for Silver Surfer and Galactus.

Everything is Fox's fault. The mouse can do no wrong. We shall worship the mouse. We shall bow down to the mouse.

@koays:

Dude! Storm become a hero because Mystique inspired her.

This is totally the the contrary of both of these characters history and everything they stand for. It is not a simply adaptation it is basically another character with only same name and powerset.

Now compare this to Mystique being Storm's childhood hero. I'd take Marvel's view in their own heroes every day of every week.

Within the context of the movie it was fine and made perfect sense.

@ultra_beleco: Well first off, What is Mystiques motivation in the comics? At any given point..? Because it changes and jumps from one in of the scale to another.

That said in almost every adaptation of the X-men across every media...Mystique is depicted as being Magneto's lieutenant who believes that humans need to be stopped and Mutants trained to fight them. It's not in the 616 comics (it is in others) but its the version in the X-men films. If you wanna be mad..be mad about that.

HOWEVER this is where you can't be mad about the X-men films Mystique. Because they used the unique relationship between Mystique and Magneto, they used her beliefs and status as a mutant more in line with Magneto's belief then Xavier...and they put her in a situation which lead to her changing her image in the public and some of her methods.

As a result she ends up inspiring a person who even in the original films was her enemy and having to deal with how she's become a symbol of an idea she doesn't fully believe in. It's character development and story writing...the irony of her character being a major hero in one time line and a evil sidekick in another is the point of the character.

This is something that couldn't be done by following the source material..because in the source material it's often questionable if Mystique even cares about Mutants at all. They took a character and using the events of the story they told DEVELOPED HER.

And character development that makes sense in a adapted story is never a problem, unless you can show me why the source material version is better or how the changes damage story potential for the character or adaptation.

Exactly. And that is the reason the movie sucks for me. It is only the same name/powerset but totally different characters.

Eh, she did start another "Brotherhood of Mutants", though I never understood why they called themselves that, and she did try to murder Senator Kelly for having anti mutant views. Though that could have been due to the future Destiny saw oppressing mutants would make it harder for her to enact her plans.....her real motives were debatable I suppose.

Arguably so is Thor and Loki though.

@koays:

1 - I can be mad about anything I want. If you disagree that is fine, but it is still my opinion.

2 - In the context of the movies all makes sense because FOX couldn't care less about the original characters.

3 - if I'm reading about a pacifist heroine (Storm) oposing a Extremist villain (Mystique) in the comics and enjoy that why would I want in the movies to be the oposite. Storm becames the extremist in a large portion of the movie. Storm in the comics went trough much more trauma and hardships in the comics and never became a villain.

- How would fans react if Batman's next movie was about him being an ex murderer seeking redemption?

- Wonder Woman an anti feminist woman?

- Superman became a hero after being stopped conquering earth?

These are elsewords that can be done in comics. I don't want to see that in a movie adaptation. Marvel knows that and that is the reason their cinematic universe is so succsessfull.

It is not about not making adaptations. It is about keeping the essence of the characters.

Marvel does.

Fox did that only in Deadpool maybe in the second Wolverine movie and a few characters in original trilogy.

@cattlebattle: In witch way are Thor and Loki so different from the comics that even compares to what Fox did ?