i actually think thats why they are bringing the original avengers in as well. take them from the past so that when the O5 return it will revamp a new universe around the x-men/mutants but leave the avengers concept unscathed except maybe mutants never join the team

Hmmm, but what if the alternate version of X-Men #8 events does not conclusively mean they are from another timeline, rather that they are the 616 versions but after AOU's disastrous effects on the fabric of space/time it's caused random 'rewrites' of past events. Like small fractions of time and space have altered or slipped out of existence as the continuum fractures and tries to repair itself. The O5 may no longer be able to get back to the past because their version of the past has been slightly rewritten again, after they'd left, so 'their' past effectively no longer exists and the already broken space-time continuum is effectively stopping them from returning to prevent further damage.

It's link thinking of source control in programming (almost). You could create a new branch of the code and develop that differently, but in parrallel to the parent version (i.e divergent timeline due to something important happening / needing to happen). Or you can refactor the existing code so that what it does something different at a particular point now, than when you looked at it beforehand, because it was not working properly (i.e. space/time rewrite of a single timestream in an effor to fix itself).

I mean, if Doom can create a doomlock device that allows someone to change past events without spawning a alternate timeline, then what's to prevent the space/time continuum from doing something similar when it's teetering on the verge of tearing itself apart?

WTF Marvel !? How much more of this time travel shit are they gonna keep throwing at us...

@avenger85: Yeah, I agree. But really can you say with absolute certainty that this is not what Marvel may be doing with this O5 thing? The more I think about it from Marvel's standpoint, the more I believe this is what they are trying. Almost like the 2099 experiment. If so this would be an example of the fan service that was discussed in another thread. There are many fans that want the Xmen in their own separate universe. Now whether it's because of being tired of crossovers or the Xmen being the black sheep of the current u, I dont know. But if this is the direction, it would be marvel pacifying those fans, making more money, and retelling old stories in a modern way. Supposedly that was what the Ultimate Universe was about and this stupid Trial of Jean grey might be an attempt at putting out feelers to see how this might sell.

lol yeah does this mean they send the o5 back then marvel would wait another ten years and bring the o5 back to the present but they would be mostly 26 and not 16, lol?

Bendis happened. Don't bother trying to know why.

That is Awesome and it actually makes sence. I wouldnt made seeing the o5 grow up in the present and maybe not be so screwed up like their older selves. Also I'm starting to get attached to the o5 teens, their so cute. Damn you Bendis, you better not screw this up >:)

I didn't get you there.What did you mean?

@hopesummersforthefuture: NO. NO. NNNNOOOOO!!! They got to go back. Its a bad idea. PLease, Am I the only one that feels like that? Come on people, this is a terrible premise

So the All-new X-men's past is in the the 616 universe because the events of the X-men #8 aren't any more, due to that fracturing?

okay, sure. My whole point was more that they can't both be, so if the explanation is that one replaces the other as what happened, like someone mentioned with Iron-Man's origin, I guess that still works. But that's still at least a retcon, and they are still alternate versions of the story. But, alright, sure.

Like I say, it doesn't matter to me which stories are in-continuity or not, they all still equally exist.

Me too. Go back to their own time and set this shit right.

i am rereading the Avengers arc where they go to the future & meet the future ironman, hulk & next avengers & i have to say. the events mapped out on the timeline board have happened & we have reached and we have reached the final mark which wa!s labeled "Kang's Forces" right before the timeline collapses....

Yeah, their past has effectively been overwritten / rewritten, albeit to a minor / subtle degree (i.e. it's not "They're all monkeys now!!!"). So the events of #8 still happened, just the wording and emotions changed slightly. Agree with your point that they can't be both in real-world terms and I can't think of how they could be in a fictional universe either (quick - call Hickman, he'll know!). Yeah, the stories still equally exist, but I like to apply a selective memory and go with the best or more recent version in order to keep a more cohesive narrative in my head.

I really like how Bendis is writing the o5. Bobby is hilarious, Scott is has had some great character moments, there's not a version of Hank running around I don't want to kill for being a hypocrite. The last issue of ANXM where Warren is stuck between an arguing Jean and Scott is fantastic! I'm happy for them all to stick around for a while longer.

lol @daycrawler mentioned the above point, i just agreed with him and for some reason I'm not getting my Notifications

Totally agree and the jean and scott drama(poor Warren) is just starting.

There going to send the O5 back eventually....it's just common sense. Eventually, someone is going to come along after the hype has warn off and realize that having, 2 Scott Summers, 3 Icemen and 4 Hank Mccoys running around is a little much.

The thing is, can anyone imagine a situation/event where Marvel would send the O5 back, and not capitalize off of the potential idea of a new timeline? I mean say what you want about the initial concept, but All New X-Men sells so they'll get every interaction/revelation/character development they can out of it before they let them go.

The way I see it, their not going to be reckless enough to reboot the X-men, or the Marvel U, but we may get a sort of "Age of Apocalypse/X" style crossover spawning from whatever event sent the O5 back home.

But they already have those and Ultimate X-men and there not doing so good. It would be stupid for marvel trying to make like a new remember X-men: forever or Age of X? I just like 616-universe, i dont by into ulternate timelines/universes.

At this time, quality-wise DC's books are far, far better than Marvel's. The whole of Trial of Jean Grey could have been easily put together in 2-3 issues MAX.

Sending them back and putting them in an alternate timeline or universe is the only way to make sense of this current mess. Plus if All New is selling so good, then it shouldn't be a problem, those fans can just go over to that alternate universe/timeline with the O5

how is that the only way and what mess?

@danhimself: The concept and premise of the O5 in the present is a mess.Bendis loves this convoluted crap and its just all messy and really stupid when you look at it. It makes no sense for them to be in the present, so the only thing that makes sense is some sort of alternate reality or whatever.

It doesn't have to become an ongoing, but I see them doing a big crossover one day (after the novelty has worn off) where they send the O5 back and all of a sudden time changes because one of them remembers how things will turn out....then that event ends with time going back to the way it was supposed to be except now the Adult Original 5 have some memories from there past selves or some other life lesson.

@avenger85: I'm a DC guy myself but even in their current state of confusion, the top 3 X-books (Uncanny, All New, X-Men) could probably go toe to toe with DC's current ongoings in terms of premise/interest on a week to week basis.

The problem is Marvel is bad at delivering pay off at the end of it's ideas. Civil War, AvX, Age of Ulton all ended with a sort of "now what?" reaction. And were just now seeing it begin to spread as I don't think anyone at Marvel knows where they want the X-books to be in a year.

you're going to have to clear that up for me....you didn't really explain why it was a mess you just called it crap and really stupid and convoluted...why is it those things? I mean they explained why Beast brought them there in the first issue and we know they can't go home because the timeline won't allow them to go back yet....also we know that they're not from an alternate reality because when young Scott temporarily died the present day Scott disappeared

I'm not going to sit up here and explain everything that's wrong with this concept and premise. I've done that quite a bit and just really dont have the time to do that right now. Just suffice to say it was a bad idea. If you love it, then more power to you. But I wont go around and around with anyone who's actually a fan and defender of whats going on right now in the marvel u, and who doesn't believe it deserves criticism. If that's not you, then fine. If so then whatever... to each his own.

I actually don't get it either, as it's been proven if one of them dies their older version dies, which can only lead to more bad things happening, and however many events being changed.

I've given up on continuity (it's a shame, since that basically underpins most of these stories - otherwise they become fairy tales or publisher supported fan-fiction). They're still here because Bendis wants to write scenes where characters talk about how important they are and discuss timeline ramifications (which, once again, is ironic, because if continuity is not adhered to, timeline ramifications don't really mean much, anyway).

another question i have is where are the brotherhood members that stayed in the present??

That's what they are with or without continuity.

I think you're right to not concern yourself with continuity; it almost never really matters to the story.

Um...please elaborate on this if possible ???

Not going to speak for @oldnightcrawler, but I'll hazard a guess that he means that writers will tell the stories that they want to tell. As Stan Lee said, with tongue in cheek, the writers will decide who wins battles and who is more powerful in order to tell the story they had in mind.

In Hiding(especially with kid xavier hiding from Magik,lol)??? Anyways they will be back in ANXM 26

For me, every time tHere's a new creative team working on a title, it is a new universe. All previous stories are not required because tHis new creative team is making a new universe.

See Alternate Universes don't Have to be drastically different, a minor detail makes it a new Universe.

And tHe "616" is just a term for fans to say tHis is Marvel's current continuity, as in it isn't tHe exact same continuity THat Stan Lee made but tHe current one.

June'sVeryOwn

Not associating myself with this malignantly burgeoning hive-mind mentality which now perpetrates the removal of an essentially intrinsic story-telling component. I refuse to believe that Brevoort's stance is now becoming a ubiquitously ideological statement which actively pervades the negligence of established canon and necessities that are unique and pivotal to a character's being.

@phoenixofthetides:

If continuity be damned, or, simply, not much thought should be put into a piece of history or some such thing then aren't we just looking at a weekly N52 or am i just unnecessarily misconstruing things ? I understand that writers are integrating and imbedding their own thoughts, innovations and in rare cases, heart-felt passions into a franchise/team/title whence arriving on it but does all that seriously need to come at the expense of common negligence ? How will the market consistently sustain itself whilst partaking in this ? Oh, wait...

that's really more what it's like.

every story exists in it's own continuity anyway. If it's important to the story that it shares details from another story, that will be part of the story. But if not, what's the difference?

@oldnightcrawler: I think it's still bad and lazy writing. I just dont think we the readers should have to make up little stories and explanations in our heads or psyche ourselves out to read the books. I realize that you guys are basically saying " you cant change it, so accept it" but thats a bad state for true fans. Continuity should be important. If anyone studies writing in school that point is emphasized, especially when taking on stories and characters that dont originate with you or that aren't your creation. There seem to be fans on these boards and others that have a better grasp of the characters and history than the current writers and editors do. They really shouldn't be defended, not saying thats what some are doing, because basically there is some fanfiction out there that runs laps around what is supposed to be the "official" cream of the crop comic book writers. That's a sad state of affairs

that's not what I said at all; I said it doesn't matter.

why?

You mean to tell me that continuity is not at all important? Do you really think the current writers are doing the franchise justice? Continuity is important, you should be able to follow the progression of stories and not have to get some sort of encyclopedia to understand all the retcons. Only comic book readers seem not to understand that because in every other book or writing its important. Cant believe there would be a need to explain the importance of continuity

But, by that rational, you would have to know 50 years worth of stories to know which ones are and aren't in continuity to begin with, which seems just as encyclopedic to me.

Continuity dictates that all the stories in the main continuity of the time are part of one big story, but I don't see why that's important to enjoying each of the individual stories. Can you explain that?

@hawk2916: Thanks. Sound like a good start. Ha.

@oldnightcrawler: It doesn't have to be about one big story as you mentioned. Continuity is about flow and progression but you cant have that if you dont know where things started and what's happened previously. Writers shouldn't be able just to do what they want without respect to the basis and development of a particular character or story over the years. There should be at least some heed paid to the history of the character, especially if you call yourself writing within the parameters of the existing universe or continuity. There are enough alternate realities and universe for writers to tell other stories if they want, but in the main existence of the storylines we are following continuity should be respected. It's a big responsibility but that's what writers get paid to do and what any writer who cares about integrity is taught to do, otherwise what to separate it from fanfiction. As I said before, in most writing you can follow a progression but in comics it feels like integrity is being sacrificed just because so-and-so wants to tell a story. Look for example at AOU, the writer did whatever he wanted and now there is confusion and even you have chosen to disregard what happened there. What about this Trail of Jean Grey, is that not ridiculous? It's already been done. Or how did you like the retcon of the Dark Phoenix Saga with Jean Grey or explain the Xorn-Magneto retcon or whatever it was. Along with all the X23 and O5 Cyclops being together, seems like someone is just trying to make people mad by taking a dump on a franchise and giving fan support to those silly and ridiculous fans (if you can really call them that) who think somehow that Cyclops and Wolverine's rocky dealings with each other is tied to some secret lust

But at this point I think we are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Sometimes there's no convincing fans that what they are getting is flawed, if that's what you believe, and in reality no one really has the right to do so. It's like telling a kid who not yours, there's no Santa. lol.

For me and I emphasize FOR Me personally i will say that I dont think the current writers are doing the franchise justice and I dont agree with or like alot of the stories that we are getting nor the direction that some of things are going. Fans shouldn't have to psych themselves out by making up little stories in their heads that because there's some new writer or story arc that there's some new universe, in order to read and enjoy the books. Some people will defend whatever comes out as if they actually work for the company, but i find it hard to believe that everyone is enjoying everything so much, that no criticism is deserved. I think we are in one of the weakest and worst periods for xmen fans. As all the Avengers books seem to be superior and getting the proper attention at the moment compared to what i feel is the black sheep status the Xmen have been regulated to.

I think there is anyway, though, even with all the screwing around with incongruous continuity that has always gone on. If a story is good, it shouldn't matter if it's in continuity or not, or even if it goes against continuity. If it's good it's good, regardless of if or how it fits into some imagined continuity with other stories. And if it is good and supposed to be in continuity (sometimes even if it's not supposed to be), continuity will adapt to it anyway.

And if it's not good, it's not good, also regardless of continuity.

I'd like to bring up two points here. Firstly, that I don't think there's any medium or genre outside of superhero comics that this applies to. How many characters outside of that are made by hundreds of creators working over the span of decades, in a continuous serialized form? In any other literary format, stories have a beginning, middle, and end; but with popular superheroes, almost no one starts at the beginning and there sort of is no end.

And, I think sort of because of this, I think any writing about characters one doesn't create themselves is really fan-fiction. So, most superhero comics are fan-fiction. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

okay, I didn't say I disregard Age of Ulton; I said I had chosen to not read it because I'd decided I generally dislike/am not interested in most event books. I get what you're saying about some books having an uninteresting premise, but/because you've done so using examples of two stories I haven't read because they don't interest me.

Like I say, if a story's bad, it's bad regardless of continuity.

okay, yeah, that was stupid.

But mostly because bringing her back just seems so pointless in retrospect. And everyone just accepts it now, so..eh?

see? if a story's unpopular enough, it get written out. They back-track on stuff all the time, that's why no one stays dead. Remember when it was revealed that Spider-man had been a clone of himself for the past 20 years? Turns out, that was not actually the case.

Take Whedon and Cassaday's Astonishing X-Men; that wasn't even meant to be in-continuity when it started, but it fit so well, and was so good, that it became cannon. God Loves, Man Kills doesn't need to be read as though it's in continuity, it wasn't part of the regular series at the time, but everyone accepts it as cannon because it fits and it's good.

Some stories may need an established continuity as part of their premise, but honestly, I think most don't.

If you aren't into what the current creators are doing with the characters, then you aren't, and I'm not going to try to convince you that you should be.

I totally agree with you that for many X-men fans stuff like All-new X-men might just be a waste of time; at the same time, I think most of the other books do have something new to offer even to longtime fans.

That said, having read almost every X-men comic ever right from the beginning, I can assure you that even if this isn't the best time for X-men comics (and, hey, I like it), it's still far from the worst.

@hawk2916: The whole Cyke/X-23 bull%*$! is Bendis' attempt to develop X-23 further. "Rehabilitate" her, by hooking her up with the most boyscout-esque character in All New X-Men right now. That is the status-quo talked about in his latest interview in USAtoday. Believe it or not, these edgy, angst and baggage-filled hook-ups are what most people like to read about these days ( even though these are far from practical in real life ) lol.

The very reason ANXM and the idea o the O5 coming to the present was created was to retcon the shit out of a lot of stuff and fix up the mess that was AvX. They may go to an alternate timeline once this is over. Evidence for it is Cable still existing in the new X-Force book. But I don't know, how they deal with that. Notice how the characters could have simply got all the information about the current timeline they needed within a few issues, but they're still running around with only half-truths and biased info, like I stated in my other thread.

Do note that Bendis' views are similar to Claremont's. And look how Claremont wanted the whole X-universe twisted with X-Men Forever. Bendis will want to do the same. The contents of both GOTG 11 and ANXM 22 should have easily fit in one issue.

Bad News : Marvel needs comic book sales and needs something to compete with the likes of Forever Evil and Zero Year. That franchise right now is All New X-Men. People like this twisted, Edgy crap with characters behaving OOC. So they WILL buy it and Bendis is going to keep messing stuff up. I agree with what you are saying and disagree with Oldnightcrawler's views on this ( with respect ), but we gotto deal with it lol.

That's pretty much the state of Marvel right now. There hasn't been much editorial oversight for years, and the last few mega events showed that writers were allowed to assert whatever they wanted regardless of whether it was in character, continuity or had consistency issues. I like continuity, but I think Marvel hasn't taken it seriously since they discontinued thought balloons and those little quotes that used to cite to other comics.

Marvel owes X-men in a major way, this whole golden age of superhero movies started with the X-men. It was a sleeper hit that cost 75 million and ended up earning close to 300 million at the box office, it revived Marvel's good name after their string of horrible TV/straight-to-video movies and filing for bankruptcy shortly before that. Also, I'm a child of the 90's and the X-men were kind of the s--t, everyone loved that cartoon and X-men: Evolution afterwards was pretty popular. All the while, the Avengers were kind of a non-presence in pop culture at that time and Spider-Man was in development hell for a quarter century.

Honestly, I think Marvel's biggest issue with the X-men is that you can't dumb them down and shill them like Spider-Man or the Avengers (both of which I love, make no mistake). The X-men were always darker, they dealt with civil rights and a lot of political things as well as sexuality, religion, race and all that. They have a lot women in the franchise who Toy Manufacturers as well as television and movie executives have an unfortunate bias against. But I think the X-men are very important socially, too important to disregard, and I've always taken issue with Joe Quesada's stance that it's too convoluted and there are too many mutants- their history is so well documented writers have no excuse for not being able to write for them. Research is a part of writing and when your fans make it so fkng easy, it's stupid not to.

Some writers are actually doing a wonderful job with the X-men and since they have a new editor maybe things will change.

@avenger85: Well I can agree with you on most of that. Seeing as how we live in a time when everyone loves drama evidenced by reality tv highlighting drama in everything from hillbillies and outdoorsmen to rich housewives. Its all made up bull**** drama, drama, drama. So much so that they dont even take time to develop a decent concept, its basically look for the most irritating and outrageously stupid s**t you can find and throw it on tv. Sadly it seems this is leaking over into whats suppose to exist based on creativity. A good story doesnt need gimmicks and @oldnightcrawler while this may not be the worst period for xmen fans its closer to that then the best. As far as Bendis retconning the s**t out of everything, thats stupid. Why do that. He's going back to tell stories over involving the O5 thats been done to death. Why not take what ideas and stories you have and instead of retelling and retconning existing characters and history, explore newer characters that have gotten less development. He could have taken the same stories he's doing in ANX and used them on his new characters he created (I hate most of them by the way, but hey if you put them out there develop them) or on even better characters like the New Xmen. Why complicate things with a weak premise for time-travel and bringing the O5 here to have them run around clueless for over a year having no conversation with the more experienced xmen. Developing newer characters or those less developed would have been far better.

@oldnightcrawler: yeah I can agree that its really to each his own. All the retconning and cheap plot device tricks just get old for me. Im not a writer by any means but I read alot and I feel that I should come away partly awed by the storytelling ability, research and effort put into it. What Ive read lately in most xmen comics makea feel like most of us on this board and even myself could do a better job. What you mentioned about a story being good or bad, I think Bendis' stuff is bad and Aaron's is worst. I think we need better writers on the x-books. One thing I can definitely takeaway from you or learn from you on... is to not read crap thats not good. I did that WATX and ANX so far. It just irks me that hose books are on the shelf taking up the space where other books could and should be, perfect example your idea for an Astonishing Xforce or Time's 2017 list or almost any other incarnation of teams mentioned on this board. Instead now we have to look forward to another WATX with Fantomex teaching, another Trial of Jean Grey - the event that will change everything, and o my god we are getting a Doop solo!!! What the hell is the world coming too! lol

@hexthis: They really facked up the time-stream and it won't send them back. The timestream would get more facked up if they went back.

I just don't think so, personally. I'd rather be reading a lot of what's coming out now than

• most of what came out in the 60's or 70's (before the X-men were really good),
• or the late 80's (ret-conning the Dark Phoenix Saga to bring Jean Grey back, ruining Madelyne Pryor, X-men basically dropping their premise by not being a school for mutants, eventually not even being a team, and crappy art all around),
• the late 90's (mostly the same criticisms as the late 80's, actually, but even worse),
• or any time between 2008-2013 (after Whedon left the books went downhill pretty fast).

Like I say, while I agree that All-New X-Men is pretty pointless, personally, I don't think that what Bendis is doing is all bad because hisUncanny X-Men is actually really good. I think it's one of my favorite X-men books in years, really; so if he's doing one book that I'm not reading (but is popular), and another book that I'm actually loving, I can't really agree that he's doing a bad job.

I'm more inclined to agree that Aaron was a bad fit overall, but I have liked that he gave some focus to Quire and Broo (both of whom I think are great characters), and I have enjoyed Amazing X-Men so far even Wolverine & the X-Men has been good since BotA ended (issues 38-40 have been great), so at most I can say I'm hot and cold with his stuff, and maybe it's just not for me.

I guess all you can really do is not read books you think are bad.

I know what you mean about how every book you see as pointless reminds you of the kinds of books you'd rather see, I think we all sort of have a bit of that, favorite characters who fall into disuse.. but, most of the time, those characters do come back, and generally when they do it's because there's a writer who loves them like you do. That's what I'd rather see. If the current writers aren't interested in characters I like, I'd rather they not use them; I'd rather those characters got some attention from someone who wants to make them cool again later.

While my initial reaction to Bendis' new characters in Uncanny' was "oh, here we go again..", I actually find that I am becoming interested in them because the book is genuinely good. So, yeah, I'd rather Bendis use those characters than whatever he's up to with All-new' which is obviously just for sales at this point. (All-new actually might have been good if they'd let Mike Costa write it, but as is.. eh.. )

So, between liking X-men, Uncanny', Amazing', and actually being interested in the next volume of WatX-men (because I do like those characters too), I think this is actually a fun time to be an X-men fan, and I feel like I have a lot of choice. (More choice = more voice, too).

And I don't mind too much that no one's using the The New Mutants or the New X-Men characters, because it feels like if they were, it would only be because they thought it would sell (like All-new'), and not because anyone actually wanted to do it. I'd rather those characters were still around for when someone actually does want to make them cool again.