@akbogert: I'm not saying what Surge said was completely justified, but some people don't even try to understand her reasoning.

I think her lashing out about killing is wrong. Yeah, that's naive. Her lashing out about killing is just that - Lashing out. I'm not saying Laura was in the wrong regarding killing.

I'm talking about the trust issue. Surge feeling betrayed isn't unjustified, but from the way people reacted, she's Hitler. I'm not saying she did this because of she's the leader, but because her personality is that of a leaders. As in her not calling someone out on something and shutting up isn't something a leader should do, so get her lack of restraint when she feels trust, something important in a team, has been breached. I dunno why I linked it to the tough love idea. That's how I feel people should treat her, so that was me just being annoyed and jumping the gone with that. Really should've come later on.

Regarding the friends thing, something I remember (I haven't read about her since the end of her 2nd series) is X-23 having very bad social skills. I'm pretty sure there are books for that. I can't recall her trying especially hard to make friends.

Not related to this incident, but there's a big difference between the morality of killing people and having trouble making friends.

I'm saying writers make characters comment on how hot she is consistently and make her badass to an insane degree. But I did exaggerate there when I said the Marvel Universe "loves" her, but from what I've read, it's the trend to make her scarily competent bordering on Bat-God levels. Although how much that bothers someone varies. As someone who only somewhat liked X-23, it bothers me a lot.

I said what I said because people seem to see Surge as if she's being a b*tch and completely unjustified in what she did, even making up reasons to further demonise her. I really hate it when people do that to a character because they just like the one that said character is calling out, and refuse to see it from that character's perspective. That's something I see a lot with characters like X-23; characters that have bad social skills and tragic backgrounds. Jason Todd has been getting this treatment since he came back.

It was wrong to say she was at fault. What I was really trying (and failing) to say was people should at least try to see it from Surge's point of view, which most people haven't. Doesn't help that this is an X-23 forum.

I admit I wrote that comment poorly. I didn't really think anyone would even know about it (I didn't know about Comicvine's system) let alone read it. Like I said, I remembered this thread from a while back, and that comment (and this one by extension) is me venting. I just wanted to make my points quickly, I didn't think about clarity or efficiency. Same case with this comment, really. This is just a little compulsion of mine that I needed to get out of my system. I get that you want to defend a character you like, and I can appreciate that, but I'm not looking to get into a debate, so let's just agree to disagree on any differences regarding this issue and leave it at that. I know that seems strange, as this is a forum, but I just had to give my two cents and I'm not a fan of deleting comments (unless it really comes to it). Please don't reply to me concerning this topic. I apologise for being rude, but I'd rather not get into a debate on this topic.

@xspectregreyx: First, I need to correct myself: Laura came back to save Boom-Boom, not Surge (the others went for Surge). That makes Surge's b**chiness less, though again, without X-Force there'd be nothing.

Of course, while they were in a different time, Laura came across Kiden, a dear friend whom she was asked to execute. And she couldn't do it. She cared too deeply.

Laura is an extraordinary case when it comes to empathy and socialization. She had her humanity systematically torn from her from infancy. Any sign of affection whatsoever was denied her, and the two people who tried to treat her like a person (and thereby convey a sense of her humanity to her, or what socialization is) were killed because of it. I'm no expert on child development but I'm guessing if you are indoctrinated to be a sociopathic killing machine from before you are born until after puberty, it's not simply hard to make friends -- it's directly contradictory to everything you've ever been before. The fact that she still managed to develop a bond with someone like Kiden shows Laura has tremendous strength. It's not that she has difficulty; it's that being human and behaving like a normal human are literally the hardest things in the world for her. They're the one thing she isn't an expert at. And every day she manages to care about herself, about other people, is a victory in itself.

I don't know how to articulate this well but Laura's situation isn't that she has poor social skills. It's that she was born and raised by people who wanted to make sure she never had them. That's something on a whole different level from basic aloofness.

X-Force was a secret. What Surge expected of Laura as a show of trust would've been directly defying both her leader (Scott) and her surrogate father (Logan). Comparatively what Laura owed the others is less than what she owed those two, and if Surge has a problem with not being let into the loop on everything that Scott orchestrates she should take that up with him, not Laura.

You mention the difference between killing and friend-making and I think it's important to note that the Facility broke Laura's social skills specifically to make her a better killer. Their goal was the perfect weapon, and one who forms bonds has a weakness which can be exploited. Consider what I mentioned about Kiden: killing her (and it wasn't even "her" per se, just a future version of her) was necessary to keep X-Force from being trapped in Stryfe's future -- it was critical to the mission -- but because of Laura's emotions they almost didn't kill her in time. Domino had to do it. And that right there is a situation that the Facility would have been ashamed of, because it was the sort of thing they tried to make sure would never happen with X-23.

You call her scarily competent but that's the point: she's perfect at what she does. In many ways she undermines Wolverine's claim of being the best because she outclasses him in almost every way and given the time he's had, she'll absolutely be better. But the difference is the payoff: she is extremely smart and analytical but she sucks at being human. And that right there is why she's not a god in the Marvel universe: most people are turned off by or afraid of her. Few of the people who call her "hot" would actually try to have a relationship with her.

I understand Surge being uncomfortable or feeling betrayed. But had she taken time to think about it -- or let Laura speak rather than tell her to shut up because she couldn't say anything useful -- then perhaps she would have realized that Laura was somewhat a victim here as well, and that as bad as it all was there really wasn't a Plan B they could have pursued. I like Surge. But did she deserve to be slapped (physically or verbally) for this outburst? Yeah, probably.

There are absolutely situations which Laura should be held accountable for and hasn't been. As much as it's more Liu and PIS than Laura, her break-up with Julian was extremely problematic. Just as one example. And I agree with you that if Laura is ever to learn how to be better with other people, she needs to be told when she goes too far. She also needs to have things explained to her, because she's trying to learn why people act and feel the way they do. Just telling her she has betrayed her friends' trust is kind of like the lazy parent's "because I said so." It doesn't really help her to learn anything or improve her behavior, and in Laura's case it basically just means she continues to hate herself and become more withdrawn. Her growth doesn't require babying her, but it also doesn't require flipping out on her. She has special needs. Not everyone will be sensitive to that. But the more people who are, the faster she'll grow to the point where she no longer needs to be catered to.

@akbogert:

Okay, I know I brought it up, but let's forget the issues regarding how Laura is written. That can get heated and messy very, very quickly, and I'm not looking for a debate of that nature (or one at all, really).

Back to the actual incident. Surge reacted rashly, but I can understand why. When you're emotional, it's hard to think straight, and thinking things through has never been Surge's strong suit. Also, the team is basically her family, since she was essentially disowned by her father, so I get why she's upset.

To me, a slap is taking it a little far. Cyclops did have a talk with her, apparently concerning "her attitude", so she didn't get off scot-free (hehe, accidental puns). Who knows, maybe he did end up trying to convince her that what Laura did was necessary. I haven't read about either of the characters in a while, but I do remember quickly reading an issue of Avengers Academy (something I stopped reading after the first trade, since I already have a heavy load) during AvX, and when Surge and Laura meet at the end of the issue, she seems to have gotten past her animosity towards Laura, and I liked that (but don't quote me on that, since I read that a while ago and my memory of it is hazy). Did Surge deserve to be called out? Yeah. But a physical slap is a little too much for me.

You made a well-reasoned, and well-written argument. But there are people who hate anyone who talks down to a character they like, and that annoys me. I'm gonna leave it at that, since, again, my comment was me venting my frustrations regarding people demonising Surge, and I myself do understand why both characters did what they did.

Like I said, I'm not looking to enter a debate, and this conversation is growing tiresome, so this will be my last post regarding this topic. I apologise if I sound rude or if I have offended you in any way.

@xspectregreyx: Not rude by any means. Thank you for taking the time to revisit the subject.

I quite agree that it's stupid to just rally behind a character and attack anyone who criticizes them. I have a problem when people criticize a character they don't know/haven't attempted to understand (for example, the people who literally just view X-23 as "Wolverine with boobs" and have never even attempted a more nuanced understanding of who she is), but simply disliking a character or pointing something dumb out about them should not be a reason to be attacked. I love Squirrel Girl but I fully understand why she gets on people's nerves.

To be clear, by the way, I understand why Surge reacted as she did too. But empathizing with her and justifying her are different -- I appreciate why she acted as she did, but that doesn't mean I think it was right. And to a large extent it sounds like you don't either, since you admit she was rash and mostly responding emotionally rather than logically.

At the critical moment, she ranted at Laura instead of letting anyone interrupt her and try to point out why she was being rash. Maybe a slap wouldn't have been the proper way to get her to just shut up for a second and hear Laura (or anyone) out. But in lieu of a proper way, it's certainly not the worst suggestion OP could have made.

I look forward to reading more with both characters. Less graceful moments like this aside, she seems like a pretty neat character.

Surge should be ashamed! D<