The Amazon princess, blessed with god-like super abilities, Wonder Woman is one of Earth's most powerful defenders of peace, justice, and equality and a member of the Justice League. She is considered an archetype for many heroines outside of comic book. Her initial origin depicted her as a clay baby brought to life by patron goddess Aphrodite, but in recent years she has been depicted as the daughter of Zeus and Amazon queen Hippolyta.
Why is Wonder Woman developing more outside her own comic than in it?
'Diana Prince', The Wonder Spin/ Lasso Change, Cheetah, Steve & Etta have all been introduced in the pages of Justice League
Medusa was introduced in the pages of Batwoman
Giganta was first seen in the Rot World cross-over
While over in her excellent comic we keep getting more & more new supporting characters introduced! The cast is getting way to large & Diana is merely a supporting character in her own comic!!!
Perhaps so much stuff is happening 'elsewhere' to give her more awareness throughout the DCU, but if a new reader picks up Diana's comic from what they were exposed to outside of her comic they may be in for a shock when they dig into her own title!
@4_color_image: Because Azzerrelo has no clue what he´s doing and the sooner DC get another writer to do a second publication the better. If this was any other character in the DC fans would be up in arms, but cause its only that "superman" chick who was apparently soooooo lame before its alright. And the fans of of Az claim, change her origin, destroy the Amazon culture, get rid of Dianas known supporting cast, give her a new supporting cast that she is part of, give her a father, get rid of her villains, her powers, move her to London, and, its ok, because they claim, as long as the titular character is compassionate and capable its still Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman was more than just a couple of adjectives I´m afraid to say.
Another excuse is "This is all OK because Wonder Woman didn´t sell" and yet characters like The Flash or Hawkman´s legacy and mythology remain largely intact.
I want the fans of the New 52 WW to be happy, so I want them to keep that as a seperate alternate universe comic for them, but isn´t it about time DC gave us back Princess Diana, cause personally I miss her. Or at least they can just admit they have killed her off and give us a chance to mourn with a Graphic novel farewell.
I agree the cast in the Wonder Woman title is getting a bit too large, but I like Diana's portrayal there much better than what I've seen from Justice League. I understand why so many long time fans are pissed, because so much has changed... but in my own opinion, I think the the vast majority of the changes have been positive. I'm more interested in Wonder Woman as a character now than I've ever been before.
@jphulk26 Azz is trying what he thinks improves the character. He needs to because she is suppose to be one of the big 3 but she sells like a minor character. And his series is getting alot of good reviews. Maybe if that in JL they write her as she is in her own title, the solo series would sell just as well. And I hate her in Justice League, she is pretty much the female Superman nothing unique about her.
@RazzaTazz: LOL. I think Az is a genius, on a serious note, but I really think his skill as a storyteller is in another area. His book the Joker and his additions to before Watchmen have all been pretty solid. I mean I say see him as a modern day Frank Millar, and nobody in their right mind would want Frank Millar to get his hands on WW.
@Jonny_Anonymous: And@Jonny_Anonymous said:
Because some pepole actually want to read a comic with depth and a great story
And what is your point suppossed to be? That Wonder Womans original story, couldn´t be written with depth and as a great story? You can´t use her villains and supporting cast and most importantly WW herself to tell a great story? I´m just trying to understand if this is your claim.
@Imagine_Man15: @Imagine_Man15 said:
I agree the cast in the Wonder Woman title is getting a bit too large, but I like Diana's portrayal there much better than what I've seen from Justice League. I understand why so many long time fans are pissed, because so much has changed... but in my own opinion, I think the the vast majority of the changes have been positive. I'm more interested in Wonder Woman as a character now than I've ever been before.
Again and I hate to sound like an asshole about this, but are you talking about JL New 52, or are you saying that you´ve only read WW in past as part of the Justice League, and never really read her comic? Again just a question.
@jphulk26 Azz is trying what he thinks improves the character. He needs to because she is suppose to be one of the big 3 but she sells like a minor character. And his series is getting alot of good reviews. Maybe if that in JL they write her as she is in her own title, the solo series would sell just as well. And I hate her in Justice League, she is pretty much the female Superman nothing unique about her.
@darkman61288: I don´t want to get in this discussion again. really. I don´t mean to be rude, but it ends up actually annoying me because I´m emotionally invested in the ww character. Its like if a loved one of mine fell sick, so someone just takes her away and brings back someone who looks like her and expects me to be happy with it. "But she looks like her, and has a few of the same characteristics, whats your problem?" My problem is it "Isn´t who I fell in love with." I know that´s an extreme way to put it and obviously WW doesn´t mean as much to me as you know my girl friend or family and such. But thats how I feel. I think its fine you are enjoying this comic. And to make clear I only think what Geoff is doing with WW is marginally better, both are doing a terrible job of modernising the character. The art of writing comic characters is finding a way of conveying their intial mythologies to new generations in a way that enhances it. Changing the whole story, is not the art. Thats all I´m not going to continue this discussion. again no offense.
Post-Flashpoint, Wonder Woman has been written by Justice League scribe Geoff Johns and Wonder Woman scribe Brian Azzarello. And the differences between their writing shows. Geoff Johns has been building on the pulp elements of Wonder Woman while Brian Azzarello has been building on her mythological side. And there's hardly any overlap between the two writers. I believe I know why.
Johns is the Chief Creative Officer for DC Comics, so he probably wanted to establish some elements of her mythos himself (her origin, Steve Trevor, her personality, her traditional villains). Brian Azzarello is probably not allowed to use these elements until Geoff is done. He may also not want to have anything to do with what Geoff is doing. It's clear that Azzarello wants to tell timeless Wonder Woman stories, so it would make sense for him to avoid the "Electric Blue Superman" elements found in comics today (such as WW's relationship with Superman that is sure to end post-Twilight of the Superheroes crossover). Some key ways Azzarello has differed from or ignored Johns include:
1) Giving Wonder Woman a different personality from Justice League
Gallery
2) Ignoring the Wonder Woman status quo and plot threads
Gallery
Gallery
3) Avoiding the pulp elements of Wonder Woman for the Olympians
Gallery
Again, I think Azzarello's motivation for not interacting with the rest of the DC Universe is that he wants to tell timeless Wonder Woman stories that are not bogged down by elements of the New52 that may be dropped later on. And Johns can't really do anything about it because he's still not done establishing Wonder Woman, Azzarello's Wonder Woman is selling better than before Flashpoint, and Johns doesn't have the time to write Wonder Woman's solo himself.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on these writers and my theories below!
P.S. I'm loving what both writers are doing for Wonder Woman
The great amount of developments of wonder woman outside the solo title are just the usual gimmicks tied to the annual gimmick crossover events that afflict solo titles every now and then which fortunately has not affected the Wonder Woman solo title, so far, so the writer of the Wonder Woman solo title has not yet been driven insane by the dictations from the editors in charge of the gimmick crossovers.
Id be horrified if they really did Alan Moores story as anything other than an Elseworlds. Seriously, if they imply in canon that all the Super Heroes betray their morals and become tyrants (you know rather than the saviours they are), and then in a stupid turf war kill eachother off, I will be pissed.
I thought we go out of the dark ages a decade ago, and Alex Ross completely deconstructed the era?
Maybe Wonder Woman will get killed in the Trinity War but Wonder Woman will still be alive in the solo Wonder Woman title since outside events never affect the wonderful Wonder Woman solo title.
Post-Flashpoint, Wonder Woman has been written by Justice League scribe Geoff Johns and Wonder Woman scribe Brian Azzarello. And the differences between their writing shows. Geoff Johns has been building on the pulp elements of Wonder Woman while Brian Azzarello has been building on her mythological side.
One Brian Azzerrelo has not built on any side of WW. He has invented a greek mythology family drama and DC have idiotically allowed him to call it Wonder Woman. No side of her actual story has been developed in anyway. Her origin has been retconed to fit into his world, till the point it doesn´t even make any sense. Tell me how has Azzerrelo developed her mythological side? Do you read Greek mythology? Is it cause Hera´s jealous and kills Zeus´offspring? And then ends up powerless watching Jersy Shoore? How clever. What an amazing update of Greek mythology.
The fact is Azzerrelo has messed up big time. His Wonder Woman is ill focused, has very little actually to do with Greek mythology actually, I´ve read quite a bit and the parrellels are marginal. Infact WW previous runs, even some of the bad ones did more interesting stuff with Greek mythology than I´ve read in Azz´s run. Azz has developed nothing that has come before him Like Geoff with Shazam, where he´s explored what it would be like for an orphan, or he´s started exploring Shazam´s magic powers to make sure people know he is different from Superman, or the guy writing the Flash who is exploring what having thought that exceeds the speed of light would be like, how that would enable him to break into the quantum world and see parrellel realities. That is how you develop a character. What as is doing is writing a new character of his own creation.
Johns is the Chief Creative Officer for DC Comics, so he probably wanted to establish some elements of her mythos himself (her origin, Steve Trevor, her personality, her traditional villains). Brian Azzarello is probably not allowed to use these elements until Geoff is done. He may also not want to have anything to do with what Geoff is doing. It's clear that Azzarello wants to tell timeless Wonder Woman stories, so it would make sense for him to avoid the "Electric Blue Superman" elements found in comics today (such as WW's relationship with Superman that is sure to end post-Twilight of the Superheroes crossover). Some key ways Azzarello has differed from or ignored Johns include:
1) Giving Wonder Woman a different personality from Justice League
Gallery
2) Ignoring the Wonder Woman status quo and plot threads
Gallery
Gallery
3) Avoiding the pulp elements of Wonder Woman for the Olympians
Gallery
Again, I think Azzarello's motivation for not interacting with the rest of the DC Universe is that he wants to tell timeless Wonder Woman stories that are not bogged down by elements of the New52 that may be dropped later on. And Johns can't really do anything about it because he's still not done establishing Wonder Woman, Azzarello's Wonder Woman is selling better than before Flashpoint, and Johns doesn't have the time to write Wonder Woman's solo himself.
If you avoid the Pulp elements of WW you´re avoiding WW. Full stop. Azzerrelo´s WW is not selling better than before anything, the sales have gone rapidly down and should see a further decrease this year. I´m sure you´ve read the analysis of the sales figures, so whats the point of making that up. Also her Flashpoints stories were fairly successful.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on these writers and my theories below!
P.S. I'm loving what both writers are doing for Wonder Woman
Good :) Although for the life of me I can´t see why. but enjoy ;) Sorry if I sound a bit upset, its cause I am.
Again, I think Azzarello's motivation for not interacting with the rest of the DC Universe is that he wants to tell timeless Wonder Woman stories that are not bogged down by elements of the New52 that may be dropped later on.
You can romanticize if you want but the fact is that this Wonder Woman tale is one complete story that wont allow for anything else. This is why Azzarello won't address the fling with Superman or the events with the Cheetah. If you look at the 1986 run of the title you'll see a more natural blend of how Perez introduced her epic tale and then broke to introduce familiar elements of Wonder Woman's world and her world of characters.
I think more of her preboot supporting cast is being introduced in other titles, while Azz is trying to make her own solo book different from anything we've seen before. I can understand where people are coming from about how many new characters he's bringing to her story, but I like it anyway. As far as developing more, I guess it depends on which characterization readers prefer. Some people hate the character and how she's changed in her solo title, but despite the larger supporting cast I still think Azzarello is doing well with showing us who Diana is and what she's willing to do for people. Both books show her character developing, the problem is that the initial characterization is different so the character is progressing differently in different titles.
Like I said before, after rereading the JL title certain things became clear.
I feel that a lot of people are stuck on the initial characterization of Wonder Woman in JL #3. Here she is depicted as brute that can't use a door who marvels at the idea of Ice Cream and that stuck with people. So you're coming to the title with each new issue expecting her to be an asshole and that's what you see. The contrast from "5 years ago" to now is big but she is not such a different character from her solo title now.
Later she's seen flying off the handle and fighting with her team mates. Everyone is like time out! What's going on here? When you stop to look at the elements that lead up to that breakdown, forced to relive the loss of her mother and her Amazon sisters by Graves' manipulation, then the abduction of Steve and feeling an overwhelming responsibility for his safety, that's a lot of pressure for anyone to endure. This coupled with her feeling that the team wasn't feeling the same sense of urgency to get Steve back, Wonder Woman cracked. Who wouldn't, she's only a person.
In doing so we got to see some awesome demonstration of power.
How do you think Azzarello would have handled all of that pressure? In issue 7 of her solo title she proceeds to beat the shit out of Hephaestus rashly thinking that he's a slave monger before getting all of the facts together, then she gets the full story and is remorseful of her actions. . . . pretty consistent with what happened in JL 11. I invite you to take another look at what both writers are doing and perhaps you'll see one Diana.
Does anyone else besides me think that the art of Wonder Woman issues is really bad? Texture, color, details are horrible. And why are Olympians depicted as monsters?
I can say that I'm not a huge Cliff Chaing fan. . . . and with such a light style it's hard to believe that he can't maintain a monthly schedule. . . . Tony Atkin does not do it for me at all. I'm of the era that comics are a visual medium first so it's the first thing I'll evaluate and the Wonder Woman title is not something I would buy if not for the character.
As for the current talent pool at DC, I would love to see Doug Mahnke on the title, he can do some really amazing gods & monsters. JH Williams does a great job in the pages of Batwoman.
I would love to draw Wonder Woman one day but . . .
Anyway back on topic, I look forward to JL each month to see how Wonder Woman will progress and to see if any of the other characters will bust on Batman.
@BigCimmerian: I'm not sure that this is the thread for that discussion but . . . . who's art do you like. Who do think would do well on the title?
Guys that are drawing current Justice League are really good I think, and I like how Incredilble Hercules was drawn, I think that he was drawn by Rodney Buchemi and Reilly Brown.
Compare these 2, maybe it's just a matter of personal opinion and different taste.
@BigCimmerian: One of the things Azzarello (or Chiang, I am not sure) said early on was that he really disiked that the Olympians were all these toga clad humans that has become so popular in everything that features them and that one of the things they hoped to do was to make a unique collections of gods for Wonder Woman alone.
As for why they look like monsters, personally I suspect it has to do with that there is no real reason for them to look like humans, because they aren't even remotely human. Some have speculated that their appearance is somehow a reflection of what they embody and what they mean to humans. Like Ares is War, and today War is an unpleasant affair with very little meaning decided by old men far from the battlefield...so Ares looks like Azzarello and drinks heavily to remember the better days where war equated glory and great meaning.
@4_color_image: While not wishing to sound offensive, but the title of this should be 'why is more of WW's back-catalogue being introduced outside of her comic than in it?' Since I (personally) don't really see all those reintroductions done in other books as developments. They are there, but they for the most part lack everything. Cheeta for instance doesn't appear to have any driving motivation to fuel her actions (other than hating everything?). Etta's barely had any face time. Medusa...she the monster of the week, and I predict she will be a head shorter at the end of it. And Diana herself...sry but his treatment of Diana is a glaring example of how the DC editors are not speaking the same language (#15 JL Diana; utterly amazed she can hide behind a pair of glasses, #4 WW Diana can stand undetected in a crowded bar with bits of her hero gear showing).
I like the designs of all the greek gods and mythology characters. I do prefer all the greek gods to at least have a humanoid shape. The greek mythology supporting cast are a lot more interesting than the boring steve, etta, cheetah, etc.
@BigCimmerian: One of the things Azzarello (or Chiang, I am not sure) said early on was that he really disiked that the Olympians were all these toga clad humans that has become so popular in everything that features them and that one of the things they hoped to do was to make a unique collections of gods for Wonder Woman alone.
As for why they look like monsters, personally I suspect it has to do with that there is no real reason for them to look like humans, because they aren't even remotely human. Some have speculated that their appearance is somehow a reflection of what they embody and what they mean to humans. Like Ares is War, and today War is an unpleasant affair with very little meaning decided by old men far from the battlefield...so Ares looks like Azzarello and drinks heavily to remember the better days where war equated glory and great meaning.
@4_color_image: While not wishing to sound offensive, but the title of this should be 'why is more of WW's back-catalogue being introduced outside of her comic than in it?' Since I (personally) don't really see all those reintroductions done in other books as developments. They are there, but they for the most part lack everything. Cheeta for instance doesn't appear to have any driving motivation to fuel her actions (other than hating everything?). Etta's barely had any face time. Medusa...she the monster of the week, and I predict she will be a head shorter at the end of it. And Diana herself...sry but his treatment of Diana is a glaring example of how the DC editors are not speaking the same language (#15 JL Diana; utterly amazed she can hide behind a pair of glasses, #4 WW Diana can stand undetected in a crowded bar with bits of her hero gear showing).
Well it is interesting idea to make Olympians reflections of what they embody and what they mean to humans, BUT in Marvel and DC comics gods are based on their mythological counterparts, and people in ancient times imagined greek gods to look like humans. Last time I checked Apollo was beautiful, pale skinned, with long golden hair and he should represent youthful sportsman. Instead of that they made him like this.
@BigCimmerian: Well that's the point, everyone, comicbook writers, fantasy writer, movie writer and so on have made the Olympians look like the old Greeks imagined them; which was as reflections of themselves basically. And that's the problem, everyone is using the same template without thinking, Zeus roughly looked the same whenever you looked in the pre-Crisis WW, post-Crisis WW, Marvel books, Disney cartoons or in Clash of the Titans; guy with a beard (in various colours) and a thunderbolt...which becomes problematic when you show someone a picture and ask them to connect it.
The Olympians in WW are still the same bunch, a scheming, squabbling family of jerks (which the Greeks knew they were), Azzarello and Chiang have just imagined them keeping with the changing times. If we went back a couple of hundred years we might have had Ares look like a Spanish Conquistador or like a German soldier from the trenches. And Strife might have looked like a Dali painting :)
Btw, I have to disagree with you on Lee vs. Chiang, since Lee seems to be mostly T&A shots.
@Press Oblivion: Yep loving Batwoman. Did you read the 0 issue, guess so, but that was awesome.
@colonyofcells: I think the Greek Gods looked fine in the old Wonder Woman pre-new 52. They were all modern, like Eros, was this pot smoking, hippy with dredds that just lounged around, with his special herbs that made you fall in love. Just an example, but most of the pantheon looked cool Hafaestus looked much better as well.
The great amount of developments of wonder woman outside the solo title are just the usual gimmicks tied to the annual gimmick crossover events that afflict solo titles every now and then which fortunately has not affected the Wonder Woman solo title, so far, so the writer of the Wonder Woman solo title has not yet been driven insane by the dictations from the editors in charge of the gimmick crossovers.
How is introducing here Rogues Gallery, Secret ID, Power Level & classic supporting cast a gimmick?
@4_color_image: While not wishing to sound offensive, but the title of this should be 'why is more of WW's back-catalogue being introduced outside of her comic than in it?' Since I (personally) don't really see all those reintroductions done in other books as developments. They are there, but they for the most part lack everything. Cheeta for instance doesn't appear to have any driving motivation to fuel her actions (other than hating everything?). Etta's barely had any face time. Medusa...she the monster of the week, and I predict she will be a head shorter at the end of it. And Diana herself...sry but his treatment of Diana is a glaring example of how the DC editors are not speaking the same language (#15 JL Diana; utterly amazed she can hide behind a pair of glasses, #4 WW Diana can stand undetected in a crowded bar with bits of her hero gear showing).
First let me say that I am a fan of Azz & Cliff's Diana & pray Cliff NEVER leaves the title. He is my all time favorite Wonder Woman artist ever.
Medusa has not been the villain of the week, she has been the mastermind behind all the other villian's in Batwoman since issue #1, that was 16 months ago & she could be built up into a major player... For Batwoman :-/
I am not sure how the two titles line up chronologically, sometimes JL seems to be ahead of WW & other times it seems flipped. But Diana does say in JL#15 she never has hid & she is WW 24/7, that to me easily explains why in WW#4 she is sitting at a table in a restaurant with little fanfare from the other patrons. I just assumes it would be like any other celebrity sitting at a table in a restaurant that is frequented by other high profile people. The other patron are used to it, now perhaps if a tourist was in the restaurant they may go up to her & ask for her autograph ;-)
@4_color_image: While you are right that Medusa has been the mastermind of it all, she's barely had any face time, virtually no lines and until 4 months ago, we didn't even know she was involved. If I have to draw a comparison, then it would be to LOTR Sauron, who despite being the big bad of the story never spoke and was barely seen.
Btw, it was a bar in London with live music in WW 4 :)
uh because they're adding more supporting cast and villains to her gallery. while her regular villains are being developed elsewhere, it spreads consciousness throughout the whole dcu.
This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:
Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along
with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely
increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.
Comment and Save
Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other
Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll
send you an email once approved.
Log in to comment