@asgaard: what makes her more comparable?

Like Diana, Angela was raised by the Angels society where females are the norm and rule, both are Goddess (acknowledging new 52 WW origin) but their roots aren't from the core of their pantheons, Angela is the daughter of Odin and Freyja (Aesir/Vanir), but she is completely independent from all the Asgardian pantheon she has a special dress/armor that is the only thing that Heimdall can't see...

@asgaard: does she have a solo or anything?

Diana is above her level for sure

She has... and was awesome before Secret Wars, in my opinion the best writing on Asgard in recent years besides Gorr.

Angela Asgard's Assassin

After Secret Wars

I don't think so she is new at marvel but do i care about that? NOOOOOOO, Angela was fresh air for Asgard her "new" mentality/Beliefs (nothing for nothing) is fascinating and allows character development in every issue...

@asgaard said:

@willienotwilliam said:

@asgaard: does she have a solo or anything?

She has... and was awesome before Secret Wars, in my opinion the best writing on Asgard in recent years besides Gorr.

Angela Asgard's Assassin

After Secret Wars

@98115 said:

Diana is above her level for sure

I don't think so she is new at marvel but do i care about that? NOOOOOOO, Angela was fresh air for Asgard her "new" mentality/Beliefs (nothing for nothing) is fascinating and allows character development in every issue...

Angela is little behind Thor in strength.Im excited to see her in this new comic book.

Post Crisis is far ahead of her.

New 52...... not as much...

OK, going out of your way to bump a 3 year hold thread with no substance.

@agent41: Not as much as she should be.

Facts well stated

still trash tier, lets not kid ourselves.

@deactivated-59dfd33ed3601: strength and invulnerability, I would say both women are on par with each other.

No. Far above; unless it's Binary.

I agree, as I lead off this thread; if we standardized the characters through Marvel's lenses, the characters are clearly meant to be on par with one another; 90s Rogue was a very cleaver way to pay tribute to Wonder Woman by including her into the 90s X-men TAS to the best of their capabilities, given that Wonder Woman is with their competitor comic brand. Even though I've clarified what is meant by this, some posters still won't just go with that, being more fans of DC; in order to do this, you have to exclude all of the PIS adjustments in new writings such as post-crisis material during and after 90s X-men TAS, which would naturally include stuff like the New 52 and Rebirth; Rucka 1.0 is the run that suddenly started tweeking with Wonder Woman's power levels and durabilities, just right out of the blue and for no apparent reason; Byrne tried to do it, but, his run was left to just languish in history; Perez, to a degree, but Messner-Loabs came along; Rucka 1.0 was kinda left to languish, as it was so out of the left field, but, then, 2010 came along and DC started catering to the fans that Rucka 1.0 was likely inspired by and brought into the fold, instead of Wonder Woman's true original fans who would have liked a run like Messner-Loabs's and who were patiently waiting for DC to modernize Marston's and Peter's run, as Wonder Woman's creators. I'm assuming Binary would be a character more intend to compete with a character like Juggernaut, maybe even Gladiator, looking through the lens of 90s X-men TAS.

@dshipp17: Thank you for your very thorough examination of both women on my behalf in regards to my previous statement. Could you pass this along to Agent 41 who doesn't agree that both women are on the same level. I believe they have a bias towards Wonder Woman and refuse to default.

Oh, I have a number of times; it's definitely a matter of Agent41 not wanting to default, even where the facts are the facts about the matter; I figured that Agent41 would notice this response as a clear reiteration.

I already clarified this for you a number of times; I just clarified these comments about the Marston run for you days ago; none of that stuff you say exists in the Marston run; the one that did exist, the bid where Wonder Woman was standing on her jet and had here lasso around the sun was simply cover art; in the issues, Wonder Woman usually took on the role of an undercover investigator, got into a bind, both figuratively and literally, to investigate, and burst out of the bonds and came to the rescue (e.g. and by the way, you can think of how to modernize that theme by adding a bit more sophistication to it to keep in line with the true spirit of this character). Marston was clearly not that interested in portraying Wonder Woman in your feats based fantasy for the character (e.g. and I'm not even sure Superman was really intended to, at least not to that degree); and this is why I was drawn to Wonder Woman, as it was something that made her different; it is the stuff that made 90s Rogue different, and, so does it for Danvers; they may perform feats now and then, but, clearly, that's not the goal of the theme for their stories (e.g. it's storytelling, instead); it sounds like you're seen a lot of Hulk material and have started your campaign to see other characters that way, even when it has little to do with their theme; I watched your "spoilers" for Wonder Woman issues for a while now and you're always talking about how an issue was a disappointment, because it didn't show a power feat involving Wonder Woman; and, now, you're trying to reinvent that stuff and pretend that they actually have something to do with Wonder Woman, when we get into these types of discussions; so, basically, you're talking about what you'd like Wonder Woman to be portrayed as and now trying to make that the character, getting confused that we're talking about the real character of Wonder Woman; essentially, it's one of those things where you'd like to have seen Wonder Woman stalemate Superman, making that into a character for debates like these, and pretending it's Wonder Woman, even though something like that never occurred. And, now, you're writing as if I can't tell the difference, for someone who might be new and sees this, even though it's an exchange that we've had a number of times.

dshipp17 lives in a world where he wants Diana to be a weak being who gets tied up every issue because of BDSM reasons and for his own satisfaction. He want Dr. Psycho to be her love interest because apparently Steve is too good looking or something even though Steve legit looks like an above average guy, probably because the man take care of himself. I take none of his opinions seriously and find it easier to ignore him because you wont burst his imagination of what HE wants Diana to be not the majority of her fans. Oh, but he'll tell you the majority wants the BDSM and weaknesses to return you just cant see those fans, cause they don't exist.

@agent41:

I only skimmed that long ass post you guys have going there haha but I want to comment on the Superman part. She is not his equal in any Stat they share however she's bested him in at least 3 different fights while holding back.

@agent41 said:

@masterwitcher88 said:

@agent41 said:

@dshipp17 said:

@agent41 said:

@dshipp17 said:

@ravenvice01 said:

@deactivated-59dfd33ed3601: strength and invulnerability, I would say both women are on par with each other.

I agree, as I lead off this thread; if we standardized the characters through Marvel's lenses, the characters are clearly meant to be on par with one another; 90s Rogue was a very cleaver way to pay tribute to Wonder Woman by including her into the 90s X-men TAS to the best of their capabilities, given that Wonder Woman is with their competitor comic brand. Even though I've clarified what is meant by this, some posters still won't just go with that, being more fans of DC; in order to do this, you have to exclude all of the PIS adjustments in new writings such as post-crisis material during and after 90s X-men TAS, which would naturally include stuff like the New 52 and Rebirth; Rucka 1.0 is the run that suddenly started tweeking with Wonder Woman's power levels and durabilities, just right out of the blue and for no apparent reason; Byrne tried to do it, but, his run was left to just languish in history; Perez, to a degree, but Messner-Loabs came along; Rucka 1.0 was kinda left to languish, as it was so out of the left field, but, then, 2010 came along and DC started catering to the fans that Rucka 1.0 was likely inspired by and brought into the fold, instead of Wonder Woman's true original fans who would have liked a run like Messner-Loabs's and who were patiently waiting for DC to modernize Marston's and Peter's run, as Wonder Woman's creators. I'm assuming Binary would be a character more intend to compete with a character like Juggernaut, maybe even Gladiator, looking through the lens of 90s X-men TAS.

They aren't meant to be on par with each other. And feats of both in the comics prove it. You don't get to decide what feats are valid for Wonder Woman, just because you don't like them. Why would we have to "standardized" Wonder Woman to ms marvel? That is just another proof that ms marvel is not her equal. And lol at rogue from xmen show being a tribute to WW.

WW outclasses binary as well. And Marston Wonder Woman did things like moving moons, planets, etc. So i don't know where you get this idea that Marston WW wasn't super strong. Do you have some feats you can post for Martson Wonder Woman? @outside_85@termiteone4ever@tedirey@masterwitcher88 I can go and find some, but maybe you already have some of those feats with you guys.

I already clarified this for you a number of times; I just clarified these comments about the Marston run for you days ago; none of that stuff you say exists in the Marston run; the one that did exist, the bid where Wonder Woman was standing on her jet and had here lasso around the sun was simply cover art; in the issues, Wonder Woman usually took on the role of an undercover investigator, got into a bind, both figuratively and literally, to investigate, and burst out of the bonds and came to the rescue (e.g. and by the way, you can think of how to modernize that theme by adding a bit more sophistication to it to keep in line with the true spirit of this character). Marston was clearly not that interested in portraying Wonder Woman in your feats based fantasy for the character (e.g. and I'm not even sure Superman was really intended to, at least not to that degree); and this is why I was drawn to Wonder Woman, as it was something that made her different; it is the stuff that made 90s Rogue different, and, so does it for Danvers; they may perform feats now and then, but, clearly, that's not the goal of the theme for their stories (e.g. it's storytelling, instead); it sounds like you're seen a lot of Hulk material and have started your campaign to see other characters that way, even when it has little to do with their theme; I watched your "spoilers" for Wonder Woman issues for a while now and you're always talking about how an issue was a disappointment, because it didn't show a power feat involving Wonder Woman; and, now, you're trying to reinvent that stuff and pretend that they actually have something to do with Wonder Woman, when we get into these types of discussions; so, basically, you're talking about what you'd like Wonder Woman to be portrayed as and now trying to make that the character, getting confused that we're talking about the real character of Wonder Woman; essentially, it's one of those things where you'd like to have seen Wonder Woman stalemate Superman, making that into a character for debates like these, and pretending it's Wonder Woman, even though something like that never occurred. And, now, you're writing as if I can't tell the difference, for someone who might be new and sees this, even though it's an exchange that we've had a number of times.

False. Marston Wonder Woman seen moving asteriods, islands, the moon,planets, etc. And please keep superman out of this. Because Marston himself said that his idea was to create a woman with all the strength as Superman. So you lose the argument the momet we go into her creator's own intentions. And we can ask other users to post feats from Golden Age here. I will post too. So this myth that Classic Wonder Woman had no big power feats can stop. @masterwitcher88@Pokeysteve@tedirey@termiteone4ever

dshipp17 lives in a world where he wants Diana to be a weak being who gets tied up every issue because of BDSM reasons and for his own satisfaction. He want Dr. Psycho to be her love interest because apparently Steve is too good looking or something even though Steve legit looks like an above average guy, probably because the man take care of himself. I take none of his opinions seriously and find it easier to ignore him because you wont burst his imagination of what HE wants Diana to be not the majority of her fans. Oh, but he'll tell you the majority wants the BDSM and weaknesses to return you just cant see those fans, cause they don't exist.

Oh look here.

Golden Age Wonder Woman moving The Moon.

Hurling a planet easily.

Throwing objects around Mars.

And what about this?

The speed of light.

She has extra sensory perception.

This proves my point that those were anomalies, as they were so rare; also, are these scans even from Marston's run? What issue are these from, where she lassos a moon a a planettoid? These were not common, at all, as compared to what I pointed out; and I'm not at all surprised to you got someone like Masterwitcher88 to side with you; as he with me, I don't take him seriously either in these back and forth between you and me.

@agent41: I had no idea that my one statement would spark this kind of debate. Makes me feel that my lists on upcoming movies are belittled.

Lmao this is a insult for ww

@agent41: You're way off on a tangent and deliberately misleading; the point was, is this material that you're using even from the Marston run and which issue(s)? You seem to have switched the topic to whether Wonder Woman had any feats to show, when the point was that certain feats were anomalies and also confined specifically to the Marston run, if you did show any feats. Carol Danvers and 90s Rogue pulled off many similar feats; also, you're lost in the fact that Danvers is being discussed from a more modernized perspective, while the material that you cited needs to be modernized; as such, post-crisis Wonder Woman hasn't done anything similar to that either, except we know that it's from a more modernized perspective. I can still stand on the premise that Wonder Woman is on the about the same level as Danvers, as my point is that Danvers is in the Marvel-verse, where they're way more consistent with their characters than DC, as far as I've seen.

They are both the same level smh.

He doesn't like Marston. He likes the method in which Marston used to portray his ideology of Loving Submission. aka... BDSM. He doesn't care about the concept of loving submission itself or Diana's mental abilities. He just wants to see Diana act like a buffoon, wear less clothes, get captured/tied up, and date Dr. Psycho. That's it, that's all he ever posts about. Why do you think he deliberately posted the Deja Thordis issues on the WW forum? He thought Deja Thordis was acting/looking the way HE wanted Diana to act/look and so he decided to show us. He even misinterprets her own story issues to fit his version of the character.

That's what you say, not anything that I said. I've repeatedly said that Marston is the one who got me into Wonder Woman comics and I've been looking for his material to be modernized; actually, I said in several prior posts that I wanted to see Wonder Woman using her mind, as opposed to being converted to a Xena-lite type character; Marston portrayed Wonder Woman as being not tied down with conservative clothing in an age of conservative clothing; hence, I want Wonder Woman returned to her roots and not co-opted by one group of fans who latched onto her, causing the current battle skirt; my posts speak for themselves, and don't show your claims in the least; I guess, what don't you like about the idea of Wonder Woman dating the Dr. Psycho with Marston's origin story (without reverting to the usual simplification of trying to reduce Dr. Psycho into a misogynist, which he is not, if you take the time to understand, sympathize, and empathize with him as a character, probably as you've done with Harley Quinn; only difference, she's good looking and woman), not Perez's or subsequent writings of him? You've never actually commented on that, taking into account the reasons that I said developed Dr. Psycho into who he became; that seems to say something about the shallowness of your character.

Again, I asked you which issues were those images from? Reason being, two separate writers had the same artist, Peter, where one was Marston, of course; that confused me, initially; turned out, Marston had untimely passed away; again, I pointed you to specific feats, not a gathering of all of the feats that you could find from that time period; sure, I can go with Wonder Woman being a bit stronger than Danvers, but not by much (e.g. not really like comparing Wolverine to Colossus; I think it's more like comparing 90s Rogue to Colossus; that's my main point).

Sorry for the delay, but I got real busy catching up on a legal pleading that I had to submit for my reinstatement case and finally got it off.

So, you mean that you couldn't simply go back and get the issue number from where you plucked those scans from? I know Colossus is stronger that Wolverine; that's why I compared 90s Rogue to Colossus, as in X-Men TAS, right after; I noticed that I forgot to go back and correct a grammar error. Whatever Marson wanted in her being equal to Superman had nothing to do with it; that was just an interjection you put in, where I made certain points that still stand.

@agent41: what I tell you. Dshipp17 believes in his own version of reality when it comes to Wonder Woman and Marston, everything else is wrong.

SMH... Here is MARSTON'S OWN WORDS

“Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.”

― William Moulton Marston

“As lovely as Aphrodite - as wise as Athena - with the speed of Mercuryand the strength of Hercules - she is known only as Wonder Woman.”

― William Moulton Marston, Wonder Woman: The Golden Age Omnibus Vol. 2

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/89375.William_Moulton_Marston

I didn't say any of those things about Marston. His run largely involved Wonder Woman doing detective work and getting into binds in order to solve a problem; once she found out and had thought of a solution, she would break out of her bonds and come to the rescue. This would undoubtedly involve feats, at times. However, the overarching theme was the detective work and her ability to break out of binds. This means that Wonder Woman was more designed to be a thinking character not a warrior character; and that's the problem with the current Wonder Woman; and the overall problem of extracting her character from the theme of using her mind and breaking out of binds and coming to the rescue.

Naturally, one attribute of making Dr. Psycho her arch-nemesis, as intended, would go a very long way towards returning her to this theme of using her mind to break out of binds. The other would return more of her late 60s-early 70s theme of adding or empathizing more of the compassion part of her character, thinking of issue 65 with Dr. Psycho, where she's nearly cured Dr. Psycho, with her show of compassion in the right environment and context.

However, making Silver Swan or Veronica Cale her arch-nemesis to do these things, as opposed to Dr. Psycho, is very different, in very important and subtle ways, although these minor and subtle changes make a very big difference between the two characters and their take on compassion, one form is very open, but one form is very closed mind, selfish, and mean spirited. This seemingly subtle change and seemly doesn't make much difference, additionally causes us to question whether Wonder Woman is more rooted in vanity, rather than love. It takes away a lot of very interesting and captivating stories that could be told for all of her fan base's enjoyment that was cultivated by Marston, rather than just one portion of her fan base that decided to latch on, during this time. One difference, it means that it wouldn't be rooted in sex bias, whereas the other kinda of is and alienates her other fans along the line of their gender, where she's a female character. As you could know, a female character who is capable of attracting men or both men and women is creative genus that is rarely duplicated. Thus, the modern Wonder Woman that DC seems to be trying to create is slowly removing this creative genus. In another 10 years or so, Wonder Woman will probably be just another generic character. DC would have completely removed that magic that made Wonder Woman iconic, even though people largely forgot why she was iconic, as you need to evaluate the entire history of the character to really find out.

By the late 60s-early 70s, DC had largely removed the breaking out of a bind theme, but, it was still there, ever so slightly (e.g. the problem wasn't maintaining these Marston themes, the problem was, plain and simply, the creativity of the subsequent writers). But, now, it's getting to look like there's just no end in sight, where every new writer who comes in is apparently losing the fight to tell their own story, but to continue this line of story that very few people like, that started, when Gail Simone lost her battle to tell her own story, heading into the mid-2010 time period to what we have now.

Apparently, got to tell his own story, in introducing the New-52 era, but, that was it; and he literally did consider Dr. Psycho, but declined; but, I think that happened, because, to a large part, he wasn't really telling the story that he truly wanted to tell. DC needs to go back to the prior management style that existed throughout the 90s of giving each writer their freedom of movement with their own stories. With that being suggested, you should notice a very distinct difference between writers. For example, Messner-Loebs' run was drastically different from the Perez run; Byrne, although doing away with Messner-Loebs was still drastically different from both Perez and Messner-Loebs; and, then, the following writer, Luke was drastically different, from his predecessors, still.

However, the problem is that Marston's main theme of Wonder Woman breaking out of binds using detective work should have still been there, as certain themes were still true of Batman and Superman throughout their history, despite the writer. Otherwise, Batman might be a drunk crime fighter living in San Francisco, by now, had they given him the same Wonder Woman treatment. Throughout Batman's history, he should have been through most professions and no professions, fighting crime. The fighting crime would kind of be like having Wonder Woman keeping her lasso and bracelets throughout her history.

You jumped in before I'd finished my editing. Take a look at the final product of my post above.

Sure, my point was Wonder Woman used her mind and brute force, if necessary, not being a warrior. Marston's Wonder Woman wasn't actually a warrior. Making the Amazons warriors is a later addition, probably the Perez rendition; rather or not it started with Perez, his addition of the Amazons was them being warriors; it wasn't Marston's version.

Danvers could be multifaceted; Marvel's approach to character building leaves the possibilities open, at least, from the approach they showed during 90s X-men TAS.

@agent41: She still can be shot by a .38, though.