@rago_beyblader said:

@sc: okey

@dredeuced:

1) dude i just read your scan carefully. It didn't say he did that in 1 septosecond. It basically says "i have more than enough time before titan arrives according to calculation which is accurate upto septo-seconds" That septosecond is accuracy of flash's calculation. It has nothing to do with the time left before titan arrives. Flash crossed superman million times in unknown amount of time. Again unquantifiable feat.

2) so million times FTL > teleporting 93 billion lightyears in no time( more than quintillions times FTL). Million > quintillion ? HAHAHAHAHA I will never agree with this. Thats why i still say It isin't possible to be faster than teleport.

3) nope, movement of electric impulses is a point. Gambler's impulses need time for any and every action. Flash never outraced a teleporter who has absolute 0 reaction time. Even if he did(which isin't true) still i won't accept cuz if writer says million > quintillion then i have to disagree. And abstracts think but they don't need time to think as they are beyond time.

4) as you said he would win the race even before starting and if he has already won thus he won't even start to run and since he never started running thus he never time travelled and never reached end and never won. Sounds nonsense ? Time travel itself is nonsense unless done by omnipotent guy who is beyond logic itself.

5) you should have focussed more on my point rather than an insult LOL, you prefer speed calculation via distance time statement cuz of his other feats, i prefer speed statement cuz it is direct statement telling his speed and obviously for a speed type hero writer would focus mostly on speed and would write correct speed. And would focus less on other things so by mistake write wrong distance or time. And @mysoulz told me that nuke event time was later retconned to be mere seconds instead of micro. So now definitely time was wrong. And i am right.

6) i heard that flash once went across the universe in a second. Is it true ? can you show scans ?

1: You seem to have a problem following the conversation. I specifically told you I could extrapolate the feat out to 999 zeptoseconds if you wanted to.

2: Who said he's millions of times FTL? That's something you made up. It is possible to get to a destination before a teleporter. Whether that means they're faster or not is up to you, I guess, but you're wrong if you think otherwise. It happened. That is the purpose of the feat and the story. The Human Race combined with The Flash could become faster than the fastest thing possible.

3: Why do you think the Gamblers have electric impulses in their heads that operate the same way humans do? They're one off cosmic beings of unmeasurable power. As I said, you can go read the story yourself. The Gambler starts teleporting before Wally finishes his race. It doesn't matter if you "accept" it or not. You can be wrong all you want to be. I can't force you to acknowledge the facts, just present them to you as they are.

4: You don't seem to understand how a stable time loop works. Wally is not aware, when he starts the race, that he's already saved the day on Earth. His actions in time travel have no effect on why he starts running or why the rest of the Earth and Radioland lend him speed. There's no paradox here. If time travel itself is nonsense then you might want to leave the Flash forum. Half his stories involve time travel and most of them have stable time loops that don't cause any contradiction or paradox.

5: You realize that Jesse Quick's third hand knowledge of a rumor doesn't invalidate what the writer stated, right? That's not even a retcon, and if it was, it's not a good retcon. If wally only had a few seconds to evacuate the whole city he'd still need to be going way faster than light. To do what Wally did he had to travel 60,000,000 kilometers, ignoring the fact that he also had to search every building in the city for every person. It takes light 200 seconds to travel that distance. What you're postulating is still incongruous with being sub light speed. So, if this one is also still wrong, are you willing to admit Wally was clearly going above light speed to save those people? If so, what's the difference between Jesse's thirdhand statement and the writer's first hand statement?

6: I don't think the Flash ever went across the universe in a second. Maybe in some crossover event I haven't read/don't remember.

@dredeuced:

1) time left is not in septoseconds. It can be in minutes hours days anything. What the hell accuracy of instrument has ANYTHING to do with total quantity measured ? I can measure time of 1 hr using stopwatch of accuracy of milliseconds. Flash calculated time of arrival with accuracy of septoseconds.

2) superman and supergirl had a race in which superman travelled million times FTL and still lost. So thats his maximum speed. Anyways this was just an example. truth is that anything that go beyond lightspeed does travel back in time. And it would surpass teleport according to you. 300,001 km/s would surpass teleport to10000000000000000000 km in a sec. LOL

3) ok show me where is it stated gambler start teleporting before flash finishes. If he did then it means gambler started(as well as finished) before flash finished because start and finish of gambler happens exactly at the same time. And since gambler finished before flash then he won. And just show me proof of absolute 0 reaction time for gambler or else your arguement is invalid.

4) there can be 2 cases, 1st he is aware and 2nd he isin't. IF he is aware then my point would be true and this 1st case alone is enough to proof that doing such crap via time travel is nonsense.

5) you realize that writer is invalidating himself by writing 2 contradictory statements, right ? On 1 side there is writer and other side there are writer AND Jesse. So my side wins :) And "seconds" can mean anything on or above 2 seconds. If you consider like 100-200 seconds then it would be under lightspeed. And well done ignoring other things i said.

you prefer indireact speed calculation via distance time statement cuz of his other feats. BUT since i am NOT saying he can't go above lightspeed, i am saying he just wasn't above light speed in that event Thats why using other feats for this one is invalid. You just can't use one feat for other.

i prefer speed statement cuz it is direct statement telling his speed and obviously for a speed type hero writer would focus mostly on speed and would write correct speed. And would focus less on other things so by mistake write wrong time which is corrected by jesse.

@rago_beyblader:

1) time left is not in septoseconds. It can be in minutes hours days anything. What the hell accuracy of instrument has ANYTHING to do with total quantity measured ? I can measure time of 1 hr using stopwatch of accuracy of milliseconds. Flash calculated time of arrival with accuracy of septoseconds.

A character wouldn't use zeptoseconds if that wasn't the operative time they're using. What you're saying is ridiculous. When Silver Surfer goes "I only have nanoseconds to act before I lose all my power!" is your immediate thought, "But he could mean a billion nanoseconds, which means Surfer's reaction speed is actually slower than a humans!" The term septosecond(which is a zeptosecond, different ways to say the same word) is brought there in any way that could be boisterous as it's an internal monologue. He's just stating how much time he has left to enact his plan to save billions of lives. If you approach every feat in comics history with this level of cynicism then basically no feats are reasonable to you.

2) superman and supergirl had a race in which superman travelled million times FTL and still lost. So thats his maximum speed. Anyways this was just an example. truth is that anything that go beyond lightspeed does travel back in time. And it would surpass teleport according to you. 300,001 km/s would surpass teleport to10000000000000000000 km in a sec. LOL

This is a false statement. Many characters have traveled faster than light without time traveling, though the ability to move faster than light does frequently lead to the ability to time travel.

Teleportation is not straight line movement, so sure, it doesn't operate the same way as actual speed and might not allow time travel. Once you're time traveling speed is irrelevant. If you can't grasp the concept then that is your problem, not mine.

3) ok show me where is it stated gambler start teleporting before flash finishes. If he did then it means gambler started(as well as finished) before flash finished because start and finish of gambler happens exactly at the same time. And since gambler finished before flash then he won. And just show me proof of absolute 0 reaction time for gambler or else your arguement is invalid.

Ok. the very first page of the race shows that the cosmic gambler is teleporting right as Wally begins running:

The proof that Wally hasn't already finished the race despite the fact that the gambler has teleported is shown in the very next page, where Wally actually has a long conversation with Krakkl:

And from there you know how the race goes. Wally receives the speed of Krakkl, the planet Kwyzz, and the entirety of the Earth and gets there before the teleporting cosmic gambler.

I love that you actually haven't read this comic, yet you sit here acting like you know more of it or the characters or what constitutes reason while making arguments with inherent flaws. Arguments you wouldn't make (like the cosmic gambler not having teleported by the time Wally begins running) if you had just read the darn thing.

His reaction time isn't relevant because we know he teleports at the same time Wally runs off. I just don't know why you seem to think Batman's reaction time implies anything about how the Cosmic Gamblers operate.

4) there can be 2 cases, 1st he is aware and 2nd he isin't. IF he is aware then my point would be true and this 1st case alone is enough to proof that doing such crap via time travel is nonsense.

Again, if you can't grasp the concept of a stable time loop then maybe this isn't the conversation for you. It's not difficult to comprehend, but if you think it's nonsense then I don't see why you're arguing so adamantly.

5) you realize that writer is invalidating himself by writing 2 contradictory statements, right ? On 1 side there is writer and other side there are writer AND Jesse. So my side wins :) And "seconds" can mean anything on or above 2 seconds. If you consider like 100-200 seconds then it would be under lightspeed. And well done ignoring other things i said.

This is not how logic works. I also didn't ignore anything you said. You brought up a scan in an attempt to say "See, it was retconned!" when it by no means was retconned -- as a matter of fact, it just confirms that Wally DID save all of those people, and he did it before the nuke killed anyone, and he did it in a time frame that guarantees he was faster than light. Jesse's monologue doesn't give more credence to the statement, and Jesse's monologue isn't a writer's statement. You can't use the Jesse scan as a fact then go right back to saying he didn't go faster than light. The two are not compatible. You're operating on an astonishing level of cognitive dissonance.

you prefer indireact speed calculation via distance time statement cuz of his other feats. BUT since i am NOT saying he can't go above lightspeed, i am saying he just wasn't above light speed in that event Thats why using other feats for this one is invalid. You just can't use one feat for other.

My calculation was not indirect. We were given very specific numbers. There is no ambiguity to the term 0.00001 microseconds, is there? That is a precise measure of time. There's no ambiguity to the term 35 miles, is there? That's a precise measurement of distance. There's no ambiguity in 532,000 people, is there? What is indirect about these things, that I had to do gradeschool math?

You can't say he wasn't above lightspeed in the event unless you believe he did not save those people. You can't have it both ways. It is literally impossible for him to save 532,000 people by moving them 35 miles in 0.0001 microseconds (or in a few seconds if you take Jesse's third hand knowledge over the statement in the original comic yourself).

Seriously, if you think, honestly truly believe, Wally was under light speed in this feat, how did the people not die? Just answer me that. This is important because Wally clearly saved those people. You are more worried about Wally being seen as weaker that you ignore what you're arguing for entails. It literally means he can't do what he did.

i prefer speed statement cuz it is direct statement telling his speed and obviously for a speed type hero writer would focus mostly on speed and would write correct speed. And would focus less on other things so by mistake write wrong time which is corrected by jesse.

Preference should not determine fact. The fact is Wally saved half a million people before a nuke could harm a single soul. Tell me how he did it at under lightspeed and I'll believe you.

Jesse didn't correct anything. She literally referenced an event she was not there to witness and we have no idea where she heard about what Wally did from. It's a truly irrelevant page and it's a shame you're so attached to it.

@dredeuced:

1) what you said is just a possibility not proof because. Since I CAN do calculation with millisecond accuracy for 1 hr and flash CAN do calculation of maybe hours of time left with accuracy of septosecond thats why this feat is unquantifiable. It counts for nothing. I don't care about surfer.

2) if writer shows that they went beyond lightspeed and didn't travel back in time then it is as unacceptable as writer showing 1+1 =3.

3) you are right His reaction time isn't relevant if he teleports at the same time Wally runs off BUT "he teleports at the same time Wally runs off" This thing is what needed to be proved and is NOT proved by your scan. Infact opposite thing is shown in your scan. He teleports in last panel and wally started running in 2nd last panel.

And don't say "he teleported at the same instant he said GO" cuz he has clearly NOT shown to be teleporting in that panel. he is shown to be teleporting in last panel.

4) i understand time travel and i also understand flash's time travel is nonsense. Just see Dr manhattan time travel or Trunks time travel. Those make sense. When they went back in time and try to change something happened then they end up creating alternate futures and their own actual past remain unaffected.

Now lets discuss flash time travel. In actual case flash was NOT at the end point before race started. But by time traveling he changed the past and now he WAS at the end point.

Please read this carefully - If you go back in time and change past according to your wish then at present things will already be changed according to your wish and cuz of that at present you won't time travel. And since you didn't thus you never went to past and things never changed. So you see ? It is impossible to change past by time travel. Things would remain same weather you time traveled or not. So since without time travel flash wasn't there at the end point before race starts THUS even with time travel things won't change and would remain same and flash still won't be there at the end point before race starts.

I know this holds only for the case when you are aware of that change BUT this case alone proves doing such crap by time travel is nonsense.

5) "You can't say he wasn't above lightspeed in the event unless you believe he did not save those people" STOP saying this bullshit again and again. When the hell did i say wally didn't save them ? I said that time given in your scan was wrong. They didn't die cuz time given is wrong. He is under lightspeed cuz time is wrong. actual time was in seconds. Got it ? And "seconds" can mean anything on or above 2 seconds. If you consider like 100-200 seconds then it would be under lightspeed and would support writers speed statement. On 1 side there is writer and other side there are writer AND Jesse. So my side wins :)

if preferance don't determine fact then why the hell you prefer distance time statement instead of speed ? Again, he saved all people being under lightspeed in several seconds. You time is wrong. How many times i have to repeat it ? People can be saved in both cases weather the speed is wrong or time is wrong. So "People are alive" proves nothing.

calculation itself is an indirect thing. You are finding speed by calculation. Do you have direct statement for speed "he was trillions time light speed" ? do you ? NO ! I have direct statement "just under lightspeed"

at least i have Jesse's statement, which is still better than nothing that you have.

i have 3 things 1st jesse, 2nd direct speed statement and 3rd the fact that for a speed type hero writer would focus mostly on speed and would write correct speed. And would focus less on time so by mistake write wrong time

The surfer thing was just referencing a single instance. If you don't think a character's statement about how much time is elapsing counts then barely anyone in comics has FTL reactions. This is your hangup, but nearly everyone on this forum would disagree with you because your stance is nonsensical.

2) if writer shows that they went beyond lightspeed and didn't travel back in time then it is as unacceptable as writer showing 1+1 =3.

No it isn't. Literally hundreds, maybe even thousands, of characters have gone FTL without time traveling. You are placing a rule that does not exist on comics. I can show you a dozen instances of Flash going faster than light, and it being explicitly stated that he does, without him time traveling.

3) you are right His reaction time isn't relevant if he teleports at the same time Wally runs off BUT "he teleports at the same time Wally runs off" This thing is what needed to be proved and is NOT proved by your scan. Infact opposite thing is shown in your scan. He teleports in last panel and wally started running in 2nd last panel.

And don't say "he teleported at the same instant he said GO" cuz he has clearly NOT shown to be teleporting in that panel. he is shown to be teleporting in last panel.

You are missing my point. In that first page the Gambler has begun teleporting, right? Yet Wally proceeds to have a conversation with Krakkl that, explicitly stated on panel, lasts for a fraction of a second. Time has elapsed since they started the race and since the Gambler used his instantaneous teleportation. Your argument is addressing something I did not say.

4) i understand time travel and i also understand flash's time travel is nonsense. Just see Dr manhattan time travel or Trunks time travel. Those make sense. When they went back in time and try to change something happened then they end up creating alternate futures and their own actual past remain unaffected.

This is not the only way time travel works in stories. It's not a binary thing.

Now lets discuss flash time travel. In actual case flash was NOT at the end point before race started. But by time traveling he changed the past and now he WAS at the end point.

Please read this carefully - If you go back in time and change past according to your wish then at present things will already be changed according to your wish and cuz of that at present you won't time travel. And since you didn't thus you never went to past and things never changed. So you see ? It is impossible to change past by time travel. Things would remain same weather you time traveled or not. So since without time travel flash wasn't there at the end point before race starts THUS even with time travel things won't change and would remain same and flash still won't be there at the end point before race starts.

I know this holds only for the case when you are aware of that change BUT this case alone proves doing such crap by time travel is nonsense.

You are speaking nonsense. Flash didn't change things "according to his wish." He changed what he could to make the best out of the situation. Nothing Wally did precluded or prevented the action of him starting the race, gaining the speed, and going back in time. It didn't interrupt the action of all the people giving him speed (he even notes how they're all moving once he gets there). Time travel works so long as what you change does not affect the reason why you start to time travel. Things don't remain the same if he doesn't time travel -- he would lose the race and things go sour. Seriously think about what you're saying. This isn't the only time Flash has gone back in time and fixed things.

Do you think Chain Lightning, the story arc where Wally literally goes back in time to save Barry Allen from being killed by a time traveling villain, couldn't happen? Despite the fact that it falls under the same circumstance you're postulating? What you're saying doesn't apply here.

But frankly, your opinion on time travel doesn't matter, does it? That's how the story was written. That's what happened, whether you like it or not. That seems to be an ongoing problem with you.

5) "You can't say he wasn't above lightspeed in the event unless you believe he did not save those people" STOP saying this bullshit again and again. When the hell did i say wally didn't save them ?

You did. Your logic necessarily implies it.

I said that time given in your scan was wrong They didn't die cuz time given is wrong. He is under lightspeed cuz time is wrong. actual time was in seconds. Got it ? And "seconds" can mean anything on or above 2 seconds.

Because you have a bias for wanting Flash to be slower. You could just as easily say, "The statement that flash was going below lightspeed is wrong." Neither statement is more true, factual, or reasonable than the other -- other than the fact that if Wally doesn't go Lightspeed then he can't save those people, so the former is more necessary than the latter.

If you consider like 100-200 seconds then it would be under lightspeed and would support writers speed statement. On 1 side there is writer and other side there are writer AND Jesse. So my side wins :)

You have legitimately serious brain problems if you think that it takes 200 seconds for a nuke to explode. Beyond that, supporting the writer's speed statement? But it contradicts his time statement! BOTH ARE THE WRITER'S STATEMENTS. Neither has more weight than the other! It is not your divine right to decide that the time doesn't count and the lightspeed statement does.

And again, Jesse isn't the writer. Her thoughts aren't the writers -- she's also being written by a different writer, so it's not like the "writer" is interchangeable here. Your side doesn't win, and this isn't a contest about who wins or loses. Let me put it in a way I think you could understand, as you seem to have a hard time grasping basic concepts; has everything Jesse Quick ever said in her life been the direct words of the writer? Is everything she's ever said 100% true because she is the writer's mouthpiece? Of course not. This case is no different. This is Jesse Quick talking from her perspective about an event she was never at. Why is she supposed to be more trustworthy than the direct words that were in the nuke comic itself?

calculation itself is an indirect thing. Do you have direct statement for speed "he was trillions time light speed" ? do you ? NO ! I have direct statement "just under lightspeed"

Measuring something as lightspeed is calculation, dude. Lightspeed is a measured level of speed. Imagine if the statement was "At a hair's breadth short of299,792,458 meters per second." It's literally the exact same thing. Anyone could eyeball that and realize it's nonsense.

Do you have a direct statement that Wally West didn't run several million miles in 0.0001 microseconds? Because I have a direct statement that, "0.0001 microseconds, half a million koreans seem to materialize on a hilltop 35 miles away from the blast." Your logic, no matter how you phrase it, always goes both ways. The writer wrote both things, he said both things, you don't get to decide which one counts and which one doesn't. He was very, very specific, too, so it's not like it was an accident.

if preferance don't determine fact then why the hell you prefer distance time statement instead of speed ? Again, he saved all people being under lightspeed in several seconds. You time is wrong. How many times i have to repeat it ?

If what Wally did was capable of being done at less than lightspeed then I would not have a problem saying he was under lightspeed -- but that is the problem. It is impossible for Wally to save half a million people before a nuke goes off without going more than lightspeed. You can not go the distance he did before the nuke encompassed the whole city.

And here you are, backtracking. If he did it in several seconds, it's still faster than lightspeed! Several seconds is not enough time to run 35 miles 500,000 times. It's not enough to run that distance 50,000 times. You can repeat it all you want, it doesn't make it possible.

Before you respond to any of this, answer this EXACT question: How is it possible that Wally runs 17,500,000 miles in several seconds without going faster than light? How is it possible for Wally to run 17,500,000 miles BEFORE a nuke can kill a single person after detonating without breaking lightspeed?

at least i have Jesse's statement which is still better than nothing that you have.

What I have is the feat. The feat is not possible at less than lightspeed. Jesse's statement doesn't even say he was less than lightspeed -- it says he did it in several seconds. I have already said to you that even if we accept Jesse's statement as fact, several seconds is not enough time to do what Wally did while still going below lightspeed.But you ignored me. You acted like Jesse's statement magically changes the time given originally (with very dubious logic) but then ignore the fact that Jesse's time doesn't change the argument, unless you think "several seconds," means "several hundred seconds," or that it actually takes several hundred seconds for a nuke to cover a city.

@dredeuced:

1) no proof = unquantifiable, thats it

2) just consider a character whose top speed is 300001 km/s and can time travel using speed, now according to you he would beat teleporter who goes billion lightyears in seconds. So this means 300001 km > billion lightyear. Thats why surpassing teleport is impossible.

3) you said "conversation lasts for a fraction of a second". Since some conversation happened between gambler teleport start and gambler reaching end, This proves there is a fraction of a second time gap in between gambler's start and end. Thus its not a usual teleport, usual teleport happens in no time. Its some different teleport which is slow.

4) But doc and trunks time travel are only 2 which are not non-sense. You missed last line "this holds only for the case when you are aware of that change BUT this case alone proves doing such crap by time travel is nonsense."

gambler event is not this type of case but it doesn't matter cuz there ARE possible cases in which my logic can be used and they prove that changing things by time travel is impossible.

Yeah sure that is written and happened. Its like 1+1 = 3 has happened.

5) i never did, stop putting words in my mouth. read full logic instead of assuming meanings. And if things like busting planet, galaxy are possible then nuke busting in 100 seconds is also possible.

and now you are trolling. you ignored this entire point

a) people can be saved in BOTH conditions, weather you take speed wrong or weather you take time wrong. So saving people feat does NOT help you. It is equal for both sides. You have NO VALID REASON for preferring time instead of speed.

b) "How is it possible that Wally runs 17,500,000 miles in several seconds without going faster than light?" Answer - considering several = around 100-200. Several means anything >= 2

c) Writer doesn't matter. Both things are published by DC comics. Writers don't have any right over characters, DC company has.Only thats what matters. Jesse statement is as good as writers.

d) you said

"Do you have a direct statement that Wally West didn't run several million miles in 0.0001 microseconds? Because I have a direct statement that, "0.0001 microseconds, half a million koreans seem to materialize on a hilltop 35 miles away from the blast."

Its direct time statement, I have direct speed statement. We are discussing flash's speed in this thread.

e) you have nothing and i have 3 things - jesse, direct speed statement and again you ignored obvious fact that for a speed type hero writer would focus mostly on speed and would write correct speed. And would focus less on other things so by mistake write wrong time

@rago_beyblader: I'm dropping the time travel in the human race feat discussion. You can't get your head around stable time loops and I don't have the ability to explain it more simply than I have. It's your problem if you can't understand it and think that the only way time travel could ever be plausible in a story is if it involves multiverse splitting.

Back to the nuke feat. You have ignored me again. I will not humor your insane ravings until you answer this question:

Could Wally West, while moving slower than light speed, move 500,000 people 35 miles away before a nuke's explosion could encompass a city? If yes, then how? Does it take the nuke hundreds of seconds to expand(of course not)? Did wally not actually have to drop people off 35 miles away? What made up reason do you have for Wally being able to accomplish the feat while moving slower than light?

By the by, the word "several" cannot mean 200. The word "several" was never even used -- Jesse said "mere" seconds which means the smallest amount. The smallest amount of seconds is not several seconds, nor is it the multiple hundreds of seconds he would've needed to evacuate the city at less than lightspeed, NOR is that the amount of time it takes for a nuke's explosion to expand to a city sized radius.

I can't believe I also have to give you a grammar lesson for a word that isn't even relevant for an argument you made up out of nothing to support a point that makes no sense.

Jesse's statement is not as good as the writer's. I can literally show you Jesse being mistaken about things dozens of times. Her word is not law, nor is she a mouthpiece for the writer. Those thoughts are her own and are not inherently factual because you say so. There's nothing there to believe that it is the writer talking through her. It is a character statement. Remember that YOU are the person who said that Wally's character statement about the amount of time passing is not quantifiable, you are being an enormous hypocrite by turning around and saying Jesse's statements are factual beyond reproach just because they support your maligned argument. But that's the funny thing about this. I've continued arguing your point as if Jesse's statement was right -- I even continued arguing the point as if YOUR own made up statement was right -- it still is not possible for Wally to have saved those people if he had to take a couple hundred seconds to do it. An explosion expands way, way faster than that and would've killed many people before Wally finished.

@dredeuced:

concession accepted :D

5) yeah you are partially right these mere or several type words are unquantifiable. But even if you ignore jesse still you have nothing and i have 2 things left. direct speed statement and fact that for a speed type hero writer would focus mostly on speed and would write correct speed. And would focus less on other things so by mistake write wrong time

rest everything i already answered. you repeated other things.

This isn't decided by "number of things." It is decided by what is logical, what makes the most sense. Does the nuke taking 200 seconds to finish exploding make more sense than what I'm saying, that the writer made a mistake that Wally can't go FTL?

Again, you have failed to answer my question: How come no one dies if it takes Wally several hundred seconds to do what he did?

If things like FTL travel, planet bust, galaxy bust are possible then nuke taking 200 seconds is also possible. Nuke taking 200 seconds makes more sense than someone traveling FTL.

how many times i have to repeat that for a speed type hero writer would focus mostly on speed and would write correct speed. And would focus less on other things (like time taken by nuke, by flash etc) so by mistake write wrong time.

No it doesn't. You are lying to suit yourself. This is nonsense and you know it. As a matter of fact, the writer gives us the amount of time Wally takes to do what he did (0.00001microseconds) because nukes explode quickly. That you've defaulted to, "The nuke blows up slower because that's what I want it to do!" is completely indicative of the fact that you've given this no critical thought and came here only with the goal of trying to be a contrarian about the feat. When called out about how your logic is inherently nonsensical, you make up continually more nonsensical means to try to support the argument. You didn't even being to think through the fact that thinking Wally was slower than light makes the feat impossible, or any of the things I brought up -- thus your continual backtracking.

Obviously traveling FTL is incredibly common in comics. If you think it's more plausible that it takes a nuke several hundred seconds to expand than Wally West, a character well known for his ability to travel FTL, going FTL then you have a distinct inability to be reasonable.

how many times i have to repeat that for a speed type hero writer would focus mostly on speed and would write correct speed. And would focus less on other things (like time taken by nuke, by flash etc) so by mistake write wrong time.

You can repeat it all you want. It's still patently stupid. It's far, far more reasonable that he made the mistake of thinking Wally couldn't go FTL. This was actually a common misconception that some people still have. He wanted the nuke to go off and he wanted Wally West to save the people before the nuke killed anyone, that's the important part of the story. Saying that this particular nuke just happens to be extra super slow is absolutely, completely inane. This is something that you have to make up and impose upon the comic to make your opinion work -- what does that say to you? That you are literally fabricating things to support yourself. Your entire argument is based on a lie that that nuke was moving at a leisurely pace.

Which is what everything you've said in this thread thusfar is. Inane arguments, lies, misinterpretations, and a continual inability to apply rudimentary logic.

This argument is done. You can have the last word, I think your ridiculous "The Nuke's really really slow because that's what I want so it can make the feat unimpressive!" line of thought has said more than I ever could about why you're posting here. Continue calling me a troll from under your bridge.

Also, please don't go, "I accept your concession." It is not a concession to recognize your opponent as embarrassingly unfit to continue and thinking better to leave the argument alone. Implying you, "won" the argument because I was tired of you saying very, very stupid things is what a 5 year old does when the adult refuses to continue arguing against the ignorance.

@dredeuced:

1) 1st of all what proof do you have about how much time a nuke takes to explode completely in general ? and without a doubt 100 sec for nuke make more sense than FTL. Maybe comics has different type of nuke ? For going FTL you need different type of laws of universe. Diff nuke is better than diff laws of universe. As a matter of fact, the writer gives us the speed(lightspeed) cuz flash was lightspeed.

2) time isin't the only thing. distance 35 miles may be wrong too.

3) hell even the number of people can be wrong.

4) look who is talking, you are the one talking stupid, lying, misinterpreting things, trolling to overhype flash NOT ME. Again 2 things - here our discussion topic is speed and speed is directly given. your calculations using other statements are secondary things. Again, for speed type hero writer focus mostly on speed and would write correct speed. And would focus less on other things. Speed statement is primary and ALL other things are secondary.

you can give all excuses but i won cuz i have valid points and you stopped.

He has run so fast that he ran to the creation of the universe I think it was under the mark waid run. It Happened when he was out running black flash

That was a Mark Millar story. He ran to the end of the universe where concepts like Death do not exist, then ran back to his original time.

What a looooong debate that started over a single scan...

@rago_beyblader:

Hello, sorry but physics doesn't agree with you and the writer who wrote the feat.

A nuclear reaction due to atomic chain reaction happens at relativistic speeds that's a fact. In order for Wally to save everyone he would need to start with the people nearest to the bomb, which means when he came back from his first trip he would have died.

So either the number of citizens, the type of bomb, the distance and time is wrong or the writer doesn't have a clue what is physics.

I will go with the latter rather the former because it makes more logical sense.

The feat when he saved 500000 people from a nuke has him running at 2610 times the speed of light. That's crazy.

@dredeuced: Wally once time runs faster than Big Bang?

@the_weatherman:

Wouldn't Flash put a tear around the earth a few meters deep if he was doing n x light speed? I mean due to gravity, the more speed something gains the heavier something gets right?

If he wanted to, yes. Most speedsters can ignore or enforce the consequences that come with superspeed -- sometimes they'll tear into the ground when the run, sometimes nothing will happen. Just like how sometimes they have slipstreams and sometimes they don't.

@dredeuced said:

Got ya. Thanks.

@doom_phd: Actually The Speed Force is said to warp physics, so technically you could just blame The Flash's physics destroying power as he is able to allow the effect of physics or basically not allow them. That is why I never agree with calling The Flash a speedster. He's more a reality warper with a really narrow realm of influence. lol

@dredeuced:

I know its an old topic but I had to...

Now try to understand what I'm saying, if he time travels he can get there before the race starts.

Time is always a positive value or 0, never less. It is either 0 or more ( on left or right of the scale - past / future ). If You go back 1 minute in time, You do not go minus 1 minute, You go plus one minute in the past. May seem odd i know, but that's how physics work. Time travel does not make You faster. Because speed = distance / time. You cannot divide by 0... meaning You cannot move faster than instant. Traveling in time does not change that, it does not increase speed.

Also, teleportation isn't exactly 0 seconds, otherwise, in that non existent amount of time, there would be 2 people -- one at the starting location of the teleportation and one at the ending location.

This is exactly what it is. If human were able to teleport, he would appear in starting and ending location at the exact same time.

something that doesn't exist in real life so it's not worth thinking about) but it's not really relevant.

It does exist in black holes ( according to scientists )

The teleporter gets there in 0 seconds, the time traveler gets there 30 seconds before the race starts.

Which still does not make time traveler faster because again

s=d/t

You cannot divide by 0, You cannot reach speed higher than instant movement / teleportation.

It will take both of them the exact same to get there, time traveler will just appear 30 seconds in the past but their speed will be the same.

This thread shows how stupid a character the Flash is.

@rabumalal:

This thread shows how stupid a character the Flash is.

I would lean towards writers than character himself.

Welcome to comic books where Flash does divide by zero when it comes to distance/time. He gets from point a to point b when 0 time has elapsed. He has done it multiple times, even. He's gotten to places before he left by travelling back in time. He's ran races against himself where two distinct versions of him existed at the same time because he was running so fast. Time Travel and Flash have never, ever followed anything that we would consider reasonable physics.

This is exactly what it is. If human were able to teleport, he would appear in starting and ending location at the exact same time.

Which is not the case with the Gambler. I think you're ignoring the context here. If a human were able to teleport it depends on HOW you teleport. You could pull the star trek version of teleport where you disassemble your molecules, beam them to an area, and reassemble them in the exact same quantum state. Or you could pull the Nightcrawler version where you just take a shortcut through a different dimension. There's a distinct passage of time in these situations.

Instantaneous teleportation is a weird egg because, assuming you were able to do that, you could presumably make infinite versions of yourself (though I suppose this could be limited by the time it takes to consciously activate the power). We run into that same problem with Wally West's speed. How I would logic it is that at the exact start of the "race" the Gambler existed at the finish line and not at the starting line, as per being instantaneous. It took no time to accomplish but he doesn't exist in both places.

It does exist in black holes ( according to scientists )

We understand so little about black holes that I'd love to see a paper that conclusively proves that instantaneous information travel across any distance is possible. Because that sounds absurd to me.

Which still does not make time traveler faster because again

s=d/t

You cannot divide by 0, You cannot reach speed higher than instant movement / teleportation.

It will take both of them the exact same to get there, time traveler will just appear 30 seconds in the past but their speed will be the same.

You realize I'm talking about effective speed, not absolute speed, right? I'm talking about measuring the result of a race by what happens between the racers. I'm showing how time travel completely undermines the concept of speed when it comes to something like a race.

Heck, it's not like Flash even would travel a tangible distance when he time travels as I don't think we have distance measurements for moving through time. Do you? So what, it'd be Speed = unquantifable/0? There you have it. It's a Grant Morrison comic, friend, they've never been too keen on strict physics -- rather, it always goes towards pulp scifi.

Your namesake is an omnipotent god turned Mary Sue.

@ghostodoofus: This is a bit of a meta contextual thing with Wally working as a narrator. Superman and crew are doing it simultaneously with everyone else while Linda is "talking" to Wally (who's already doing the stuff in the later panel) -- it's more a revealing of how it's all functioning, not specifically sequential. This is a quirk of Morrison writing (go read Pax Americana if you wanna get really wacky about it non-sequential story telling). Wally's getting all of that boost at the same time, but is explaining the amount of boost he needs in separate pieces while talking to Linda. He points out how all of Earth is behind him but he needs something more, and then the "camera" shifts to showing the more that he needed. You have to remember from Wally's perspective nothing is actually happening, he's moving in less than in instant.

He needs this speed to travel in a timeless, spaceless way -- notice how he says he's in "no place, no time" as that's the only way you could combat something instantaneous. He's pulling it off by dipping in and out of the Third (spatial) and fourth (time) dimensions as he says in the next page.

There's no alternate branching timelines or whatever, Flash rarely has to deal with that (that's more of a thing Marvel forces on all their time traveling). This wasn't anything to do with time screwery even if time travel, to a degree, was used. He is simply using the speed he siphoned to travel in time in such a way that, at the start of the race, he gets there before the gambler instantly teleports. No, it doesn't make much logical sense, but nothing in comics really do.

The headset/map bit is literally a more visual representation of him "beating" an instantaneous signal that he's following. Morrison makes a note multiple times in the story to describe the headset transmission as instantaneous for that reason. Linda's and his conversation was just the thing the was following to get there as that was what was producing the signal.

Funny enough, this isn't even technically his most absurd feat. The One Million tie in is, logically, more absurd.

@ghostodoofus: Yes, all of the running to impart Wally speed happens before Wally takes off despite the showing of Superman and co. running "after" he starts. Obviously the Superman group couldn't count to 3, say go, and start running after Wally has already started running in such a way that he's moving at an "infinitesimal" fraction of a second. The goal is to show that he needed a little extra on top of the rest of Earth's speed and Krakkl and his entire planet's speed and the other super speed heroes were that bump. It's more a matter of assigning narrative value rather than...Wally waiting 3 seconds for them to countdown and give him their speed when neither he nor the gamblers are taking 3 seconds to make it there. It's the same reason you see Linda talking about his signal dropping in real time later on -- the signal dropped the instant Wally started running even though it shows Linda talking about it AFTER he started.

here's the math if anyone is interested

also this

he have no limit in his speed he goes faster than time stop he but he re generate the speedforece with every step he runs and can absorb the speedforce wich makes him limitless in speed

@Pilantrin: ..... 0_0 help

Honestly I personally got a a bit tired of reading the back and forth arguments but to put this simply with the whole instant telportation, 1. The gamblers were reacting instantly otherwise the whole point of the race would be ruined so just leave it at that. 2. The fastest they could possibly travel is 1 plank second and no faster as that is the smallest unit possible. 3. Flash therefore moved at a speed faster than 1 Planck second which he has been stated to be able to do and he and Barry are the only ones able to do so (due to the face that they both get their powers from the speed force and Barry is the embodiment of the speed force) Therefore Flash can move across the entire universe in under a Planck second making him faster than the gamblers "instantaneous" teleportation.

All in all though the whole point of the flash is he is the fastest man alive iceberg and the writers intend for him to be so, therefore it does not matter what we argue, whoever is the current flash is the fastest man alive as that is what the writers intend for him to be.

Wally, in Titans #5, ran 7000 miles in 6 and a quarter seconds. How fast would that be?

@sirneko: No I'm pretty sure they meant Yottasecond, since that is the one after zeptosecond. Yotta would be the 7th.

@rago_beyblader: @rago_beyblader: Look even if we lowball that feat to 10 seconds, he still must've been travelling 13 x ftl, either way the numbers don't add up for anything. So if they don't add up before it doesn't matter, there's no way to make them add up. The Flash must've travelled 13 trillion x FTL, to cover 32 miles that many times.

Yoctosecond is after Zeptosecond, Yottasecond is in the far end of the sepctrum.

Also, if you reply to a 3-year-old post at least quote me because right now I have no idea what you are replying to lol.

@sirneko: Oh sorry. Yes I know Yottasecond is after Zeptosecond, that's the point. If we go by, micro = 1; nano = 2; pico = 3, then zepto = 6 and yotta = 7. That's probably what they meant since they used septo.

Yocto not Yotta.

@sirneko: Yeah that's what I meant lol.

The fan calcs for the Korean explosion feat are wrong for the simple fact that the comic flat out says he's traveling under the speed of light. So if you have a theory that says he's traveling trillions of times light speed, and the comic says he's under light speed, then you need to come up with a new theory.

A better theory is that he's going relativistic speeds so he elongates and decreases the amount of distance he needs to travel. This theory both confirms what is stated in the comic and also works within mathematics that we know of and is referenced in Flash physics.

@fadetoblackbolt: well that has been debunked

@misterguyman: Calcs are calcs, be they by fans or writers or mathematicians. You can't debunk a calc with a statement, I can't as a writer have my character cover 70 miles in 20 seconds at less than 70 mph. It's not physically possible for the Flash to accomplish that feat at slower than light speeds, and what's important is that he accomplished the feat not whatever speed the writer thinks he's at.

Time dilation doesn't work here, time dilation only makes time slow down from your perspective but it still carries on regularly for everyone else. It's why thought experiments of humans going off into spaceships at 99% light speed for a year has them come back not so much older than before whereas everyone else is MUCH older. Whatever way you put it, if Flash was below light speed they'd all be dead.

@mightykalel: Not even close to light speed, which is funny because the comic had him cross the barrier and get stuck in the Speed Force because he accomplished it. That being said it's only 1,802,465.28 m/s whereas light is 299,792,458 m/s; it is however 5,255.00082 times faster than sound, just 166.323569 times SLOWER than light.

I have not been able to find an exact answer for Wally's top speed, but I do know for a fact that during the nuclear explosion Flash ran faster than any other speedster could've even dreamed of accomplishing. When the Flash was rescuing all of those people he ran at his fastest speed, which was 13 TRILLION TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT! The Flash himself said that even he wasn't sure if he was ever going to run that fast again. The most definite answer I've gotten on Wally's top speed is Mach 233,673. This is nothing compared to the Flash's 13 trillion*SOL, which is roughly MACH 11,462,653,000,000,000,000.

@fadetoblackbolt: im glad that geoff johns is boosting up barry because the more creative writers for comics came around the "wally era" whereas barry has been seen as the 60's hero with the classic one love interest who fights goofy villains rather than pushing himself .

I understand that barry is the most known flash so he if had the understanding of the speed force like wally has it will outshine wally to a point he is kind ofpointless.

Lastly (sorry for the rambling) since wally took over as the flash ppl didnt like it so they gradually made him faster , gave him a personality etc and from then on wally was just like the hollywood cliche just a buffed version of the old model with more impressive specs the guys speed and understanding of the speedforce solves everything just ruins it for me but barry is always bringing hope and emotion

Good respect thread, but I disagree with some of the debates going on here. Especially since specific writers don't know basic math, which results in giving the Flash FTL speed feats when that wasn't intended in the first place. It's called bad writing folks.